Destiny - Issues with Atheon (and Panoptes)

[Holyhotsauce]

Hello, I've spotted some...issues.. with the Panoptes/Atheon pages. Before we start, I want to make it clear that both pages have a lack of proper grammar, and should probably be cleaned up by some of the admins.

Atheon: Tier - No, all realities within the Infinite Forest are simulated, they aren't real.

Law/Concept Manipulation - The Demiurge of the Vex is directly stated to be the thought. Atheon being an important Axis Mind does not mean he's the Demiurge of the Vex. It's never even implied that the Demiurge would have either of these anyway.

Pocket Reality Manipulation - He never displays anything close to this, and the only evidence for this is an offhanded quote about not knowing whether Atheon created the Vault or the Vault created Atheon.

Forcefield Creation - This ability is called Detainment, not 'Timeframe'.

Resistance to Law/Time/Void Manipulation - Not only has Atheon never displayed this, he has never been under the influence of any of these from anyone. 'Void' Light in Destiny has nothing to do with actual EE, it's simply atomic destruction.

Creation - What has he created and when? Again the best evidence for this is the above-mentioned quote about Atheon and the Vault.

Summoning - Atheon cannot summon Gorgons or Templars. He has never demonstrated this or stated to be able to do this.

Regenerationn - Atheon has not ever displayed or stated to have anything even remotely close to this.

Immortality - Low-Mid isn't enough to warrant Type 3.

Reactive Power Level - Lacks any sort of justification, Atheon has never been shown to 'power-up' relative to the Guardians power.

Invulnerability - At no point in the fight with Atheon is he invulnerable.

Panoptes:

Tier - See above.

Law/Concept Manip - See above.

Resistance to Void Manip - See above.

Speed - Panoptes never enters the Vault of Glass, and is exclusively found in the Infinite Forest.

Sealing - He's never shown to be able to 'seal' anything.

Memory Manipulation - Never been shown, and unlike the Gorgons/Oracles/Templar, his erasure isn't stated to affect all of time.

 

[Archaron]

Sooo. Let's begin this.

For both:

Tier: Allow me to correct it in this, the simulations are copies of the real universe, where in this copy they test their abilities to arrive at a perfect and objective future, and to reinforce this, it is said directly from the sagira that everything there isreal enough for "kill".

Law and Concept Manipulation: Every mind of the axis is naturally the basis of the thoughts of the vexs, like the atheon that commanded all the vault of glass and hoped to expel its hegemony for the whole universe becoming a perpetual being, Panoptes also being equal to atheon is the base for all the other races of the vexs the main mind that commands everything. So much that without both everything becomes useless in the due plans. They are the "thought", it is more than logical that they are the demiurge of the vexs.

Void Resistance: Well... The void of light itself is something really well explored and not just "atomic destruction", it is said that anyone who has ever looked at the void is not bound by the laws of space and of time, and that not all darkness or an "void" place with nothing, is not always interpreted as darkness but as the void, and even the light of the guardian who manipulates this void, being an energy out of Space and Time would be an EE (Noted that in the grimoire it is said "The Traveler came out of the void that surrounds all things.")

Time and Law Resistence: Resistance to Time Manipulation is a basic thing for vexs, they already manipulate it and have quotes that transcend it. As for Law Manipulation, the guardian demiurge is the weapon so any exotic must fit there, the same thing as any axis mind should fit the quria that resisted and used the sword logic.

Panoptes:

Sealing and Memory Manipulation: In his own profile is his video sealing somehow and also separating from the casual ghost of the guardian the sagira, and in the cutscene it is shown that he erased the memory of the guardian and the ghost of when they were inside the infinite forest (7:09).

Speed: Any and all vex can enter the vault of glass, it is not because it has never been there that it could not be natural, a vex even one of the lowest rank can go to there, who will say an axis mind.

Atheo:

Pocket Reality Manipulation: This would leave him as a "possibly," since even though he did not create the vault of glass, he still manipulates and maintains it.

Forcefield Manipulation: Oh boi ... Timeframe acts as a forcefield, since it arrests the guardians and needs attacks to destroy them and allows them to move.

Regenerationn: Well, it's something to debate, it can restructure itself with time manipulation, but it's just speculation.

Summoning: I believe he can summon them at the timegate.

 

[Wokistan]

Tier: It refers to his influence within Vex space since he never left the VOG. 2-A's not really correct with that measure either though. Even if we treat it as a real space, Atheon didn't really do stuff to all of it at once.

Law/Concept: Archaron can probably explain this better than I can as of now.

Pocket Reality manip: He's definitely manipulating realities in the VOG. Regardless of whether or not he created it, him being able to mess around with them is definitely pocket reality manip.

Forcefield: All he's saying is the name's different lol. It is just called detain, there's no instance of the word "timeframe" on that screen.

Resistances: Guardian has the law stuff from the Demiurge quote, as their demiurge is a gun. Those sort of abilities are definitely implied, but I can't really go into it right now. As of void, that's never really stated. Bullets are still bullet size and as such just aren't big enough to erase an entire target, and supers/grenades generally do one shot a lot of things or deal a massive amount of damage. Guardian souls aren't in their body remember, and Ghosts transmat in whenever they're pulled out.

Creation: RandomVex can simulate universes, and in the VOG Vex sims are reality. There's also a few who can apparently do so out of Vex space. Osiris was worried about this, and Quira actually did this when fighting Oryx. Too bad for it that Oryx is beyond Vex comprehension, but a simulation of Aurash was very much created then.

Summoning: Gorgons is a no, but how else does one explain the Oracles popping in to the timelines he BFRs to?

Regenerationn: I didn't agree with godly either. It is better suited as type 6.

Immortality: OP seems fine.

Invulnerability: Yeah that isn't correct. He takes very little damage before Time's Vengeance, but he could still be hurt a bit. I once killed him while ignoring the mechanic due to being horribly over leveled, but others have done it during vanilla D1.


As for Panoptes, here's my answer to most of it.

lol idk I didn't have a hand in making the file

Though I do remember him collapsing a timeline.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Shouldn't he have immeasurable speed? His profile states he is devoid of space-time limitations. Speed is a product of space and time. If you transcend both, then you transcend speed by proxy.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Speed should be Unknown,and Immesurable within the Vault.