Devil May Cry: 2-A Removal

[chosen]

Idrc about 2a or not cuz it was gonna get removed anyways wheter inf× human world was true or not due to the container thread

Anyways to point out since dw is accepted as infinite at least if human world = demon world in size passes then https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Beastheads_(Devil_May_Cry) and everyone who scales (bassically everyone who has 4a as a rating) is affected cuz 4a was using finite human world size

 

[Random-Helper323]

if a containing space can hold an infinite number of a Low 2-C structure, does it not go to reason that it would be infinitely larger than a single one, thus ending at the same conclusion?

Being able to contain infinite was the centre of it, yes.

But the question was whether being infinite + containing a Low 2-C structure = being able to contain infinite Low 2-C structures.

The DMC question was whether being infinite + containing a Low 2-C structure + being directly compared to it as infinite while the Low 2-C space is treated as finite by comparison = able to contain infinite of the Low 2-C space.

 

[Ryu-Strongest-Fighter-in-Universe]

Be so fr, it's self-evidently intended as an equal split so this attempt at going "well technically it doesn't say that" just gets us nowhere. And the visual of the scan saying the whole "ray of light" thing doesn't even depict the light as being so infinitely smaller than the dark

Im being real. Only with statements like they are equal or they split into half can be correct but dmc doesn't have. Also Sparda splited his power into three parts, but the parts aren't equal
And the scan is showing its just a ray of light against the demon world. I don't see any problems within it

If the DW was so infinitely larger than the HW then it would've already consumed the HW instead of that being an active looming threat

Also with the merge thing, this is the same kinda technicality abuse going against self-evident intent, to which I say again: be so fr. Your example isn't a merge, it's an assimilation. The DW and HW are merging, not one being assimilated into the other. There is nothing here that debunks my points

Merging's definition:

to cause to combine, unite, or coalesce
to combine or fuse together

None part of the definition or the wiki itself stated that merging means equal sizes. And 99% of times game developers won't say such these things. For example, i say i wanna combine/mix/merge/fuse this part of gas with that whole gas. I never say i want this gas get absorbed or assimilated by that gas. It just doesn't make sense for speaking. You can't understand if mundus says that i want human world get absorbed by demon world or in qliphoth's definition it is wrote that this fruit can make HW get assimilated by DW. It's just non-sense. Also all the times merging of HW and DW was unsuccessful (they didn't have interaction with each other) except the time that argosax made the merging. You can see how demon world was consuming human world and was able to change it. So still no

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I frankly don't really care if people wanna have this rating or not at this point. Just going to make some corrections here:

Well, ignoring the fact that the thread was made directly in response to the 2-A DMC one and thus clearly does include it and how this is just semantics since the verdict was to only consider how many universes are contained/can be destroyed... Is the Demon World even infinite relative to the Human World? To put it bluntly: No. I'll explain why.

So, the reasoning for this is dependent on this quote about how the Human and Demon Worlds were born:



However, this too is far from ironclad. The accepted thread assumes that the Human World is merely a single line of light compared to the Demon World's endless darkness, but that's not what's going on here. For starters, it says that the universe was split in two. This wording implies an equal split, and not only that, but using the English translation above, the phrasing "and the light became the domain of mortals" implies that this is what the light grew into rather than simply staying a single line of light. Even without that, though, the whole "split in two" thing remains prevalent in the raws. Plus, the visuals literally show the light is not infinitesimally smaller than the darkness. This is clearly not a higher degree of infinity.

Semantics... Pure semantics... Allow me to break the scan down & analyze it carefully for you:

The world is born of darkness.

The scan states that the world (our universe) was born from darkness which explicitly refers to the Demon World as confirmed by Arius' statement and the next panel’s explanation:

Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence, there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals.

Now lets get to the bane of all your concerns. Lets focus on the term "split":

What does split mean? Separation. What the panel says is that the world was split in two. The Darkness became the world of Demons meanwhile the Light became the world of Humans and if you still didn't understood the assignment yet, Light and Darkness are two objects...

At no point does the scan implies that the split was relative in size, you’re trying to insert an interpretation that simply isn’t there. If the intended meaning was "divided into two parts" the wording would have been "split in half".

Your entire argument literally hinges on an assumption that the scan does not support. You’re trying to force a meaning onto a word that doesn’t go well with what you’re claiming here.

And I won't even bother to amuse the "grew into Human World" nonsense. I, right now, demand you to prove me where it say that it grew into a universe. I'm waiting here to see the response.

As for visuals, that's literally how the entire manga is set. I can bring you countless panels where a different thing is being talked about and a whole different image is shown in support for it.

Literally that simple of a concept...​

This is especially relevant when you consider the number of times the Human and Demon Worlds were threatened to be merged, such as with Argosax in DMC2 and the Tree of Qliphoth in DMC5. If one realm was massively larger than the other, that wouldn't be a merge. It'd be an assimilation, going against the games' narratives. Hell, the DMC3 manga supports my point of view, as it says the darkness tried to cover the light while the light tried to escape, implying some form of equality between them as opposed to the darkness just easily covering the light.

This is the reason why I believe people who don't have clear knowledge over the verse shouldn't touch it at all as they will just only mess things up...

I question basic reading comprehensive capabilities here, the term "merge" means combining and that's exactly what happens here. If you want statements to spoon-feed you with "assimilation" then sorry, but chances are 99% of the verses can't get that blatant to satisfy your nitpicking issues.

As for "light trying to escape" statement, it’s a metaphor for humanity’s struggle against demonkind in the past. It has absolutely nothing to do with size comparisons or whatever irrelevant nonsense you’re trying to push.

Forgot these reasons, the thread's proposed Low 1-C rating is also bunk, but that wasn't accepted to begin with so... yeah. Also, I noticed that some staff agreed with a 2-B rating for the Demon World? That's even more confusing, because 2-B genuinely has zero basis and I have no idea where it even came from.

I already made it clear that was more of a figure of speech then literal. They just stated their opinion over it which is fine. We didn't accepted that either way.

With all this in mind, I propose that the DMC god tiers be downgraded back to 2-C. Given the narratives of the DMC games, it makes way more sense than any other rating for them. And with that said, I've said my piece, so feel free to discuss!

Your "narratives" are completely contradictory here then. By your logic, we may as well claim:

• Dragon Ball can’t be 5D.
• Base Sonic can’t be universal.
• Bleach can’t be universal.

And the list goes on & on...

You’re selective skepticism to DMC while ignoring how similar logic is used in countless other franchises. If your standard were applied consistently then chances are half of the widely accepted ratings for the verses would fall apart.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

As for LordGriffin's thread, I'm quite disappointed how it was handled and I don't feel like arguing over it right now. I'll simply wait for another thread from certain someone to address that and the scaling for tier 2 in general from what I was told.

That being said, it can be accepted or not is not really my concern. I just want to make some things clear here that was brought countless times in the past & yet it keeps coming back for some reason.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Imho, the darkness/light comparison seems to point to be a blatant 2A structure

If the ray of light represents a low2c structure and it was embedded in an infinite darkness before being split out, it simply means the darkness is large enough to hold an infinite amount of 'light rays', ergo 2A

Assuming all translations are correct

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I disagree with downgrade

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree with the downgrade.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I frankly don't really care if people wanna have this rating or not at this point. Just going to make some corrections here:

Semantics... Pure semantics... Allow me to break the scan down & analyze it carefully for you:

The world is born of darkness.

The scan states that the world (our universe) was born from darkness which explicitly refers to the Demon World as confirmed by Arius' statement and the next panel’s explanation:

Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence, there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals.

Now lets get to the bane of all your concerns. Lets focus on the term "split":

What does split mean? Separation. What the panel says is that the world was split in two. The Darkness became the world of Demons meanwhile the Light became the world of humans and if you still didn't understood the assignment yet, Light and Darkness are two objects...

At no point does the scan implies that the split was relative in size, you’re trying to insert an interpretation that simply isn’t there. If the intended meaning was "divided into two parts" the wording would have been "split in half".

Your entire argument literally hinges on an assumption that the scan does not support. You’re trying to force a meaning onto a word that doesn’t go well with what you’re claiming here.

And I won't even bother to amuse the "grew into Human World" nonsense. I, right now, demand you to prove me where it say that it grew into a universe. I'm waiting here to see the response.

As for visuals, that's literally how the entire manga is set. I can bring you countless panels where a different thing is being talked about and a whole different image is shown in support for it.

Literally that simple of a concept...​

This is the reason why I believe people who don't have clear knowledge over the verse shouldn't touch it at all as they will just only mess things up...

I question basic reading comprehensive capabilities here, the term "merge" means combining and that's exactly what happens here. If you want statements to spoon-feed you with "assimilation" then sorry, but chances are 99% of the verses can't get that blatant to satisfy your nitpicking issues.

As for "light trying to escape" statement, it’s a metaphor for humanity’s struggle against demonkind in the past. It has absolutely nothing to do with size comparisons or whatever irrelevant nonsense you’re trying to push.


I already made it clear that was more of a figure of speech then literal. They just stated their opinion over it which is fine. We didn't accepted that either way.


Your "narratives" are completely contradictory here then. By your logic, we may as well claim:

• Dragon Ball can’t be 5D.
• Base Sonic can’t be universal.
• Bleach can’t be universal

And the list goes on & on...

You’re selective skepticism to DMC while ignoring how similar logic is used in countless other franchises. If your standard were applied consistently then chances are half of the widely accepted ratings for the verses would fall apart.

Anyways @CloverDragon03, you're my homie still. I'm just feeling drained from the same daily nonsense over the same topic again and again. Sorry, if I came across as aggressive here. I didn’t mean it that way. Just wanted to put that out there.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Read the OP

 

[Unoriginal777]

Well, 2-A DMC has been accepted, but I don't like it so I'm removing it. Can't wait for someone to use this out of context to claim I'm just biased.

To make a long story short, 2-A was accepted in this thread on the basis of the Demon World allegedly being infinite relative to a Low 2-C structure, thus being theoretically capable of holding an infinite number of them, making it 2-A. On paper, this seems fine, but it's actually super flawed for a number of reasons. Let's get into them.

First of all: This thread was made as a result of the 2-A DMC one, and the standard that was decided on by said thread was that such structures aren't considered 2-A. Rather, we instead only consider the amount of universes actually being destroyed.

"But wait!" I can hear some of you probably saying in protest. "This isn't the same. It doesn't contain a universe like the thread says, it's directly compared to an existing one that it's infinite relative to!"

Well, ignoring the fact that the thread was made directly in response to the 2-A DMC one and thus clearly does include it and how this is just semantics since the verdict was to only consider how many universes are contained/can be destroyed... Is the Demon World even infinite relative to the Human World? To put it bluntly: No. I'll explain why.

So, the reasoning for this is dependent on this quote about how the Human and Demon Worlds were born:



However, this too is far from ironclad. The accepted thread assumes that the Human World is merely a single line of light compared to the Demon World's endless darkness, but that's not what's going on here. For starters, it says that the universe was split in two. This wording implies an equal split, and not only that, but using the English translation above, the phrasing "and the light became the domain of mortals" implies that this is what the light grew into rather than simply staying a single line of light. Even without that, though, the whole "split in two" thing remains prevalent in the raws. Plus, the visuals literally show the light is not infinitesimally smaller than the darkness. This is clearly not a higher degree of infinity.

This is especially relevant when you consider the number of times the Human and Demon Worlds were threatened to be merged, such as with Argosax in DMC2 and the Tree of Qliphoth in DMC5. If one realm was massively larger than the other, that wouldn't be a merge. It'd be an assimilation, going against the games' narratives. Hell, the DMC3 manga supports my point of view, as it says the darkness tried to cover the light while the light tried to escape, implying some form of equality between them as opposed to the darkness just easily covering the light.

For these reasons, the thread's proposed Low 1-C rating is also bunk, but that wasn't accepted to begin with so... yeah. Also, I noticed that some staff agreed with a 2-B rating for the Demon World? That's even more confusing, because 2-B genuinely has zero basis and I have no idea where it even came from.

With all this in mind, I propose that the DMC god tiers be downgraded back to 2-C. Given the narratives of the DMC games, it makes way more sense than any other rating for them. And with that said, I've said my piece, so feel free to discuss!

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Hello everyone,

Obviously, thanks to the efforts of @SuperSonicTL, @Ryu-Strongest-Fighter-in-Universe, and @Random-Helper323 many of the issues surrounding this proposition have been dispensed with, but given my title I figure I might as well take a stab at it, however unoriginal it might be in its presentation.

First and foremost the interpretation that the light and darkness grew into the HW and DW is blatantly non-sequitur as there is no implication that this is the case. The darkness becoming known as the DW or light becoming known as the HW simply would mean that the spaces came to be known as the DW and HW with time, however, this is speaking more future tense in the sense that the DW and HW were still a combination at that point. Unfortunately, the problems just don't stop there, the fact that you're arguing equality shows an incapacity to understand basic literature as the page illustration comparing the darkness and light that came to be known as HW and DW with the darkness all around the light. Not to mention that every interaction between the realms leads to the HW's consumption. This is never once contradicted even once as every, interaction, between worlds always ends with the DW consuming the HW by its own nature at no cost to itself whatsoever in a verse where the DW is fueled by demonic energy which upscaled the DW over the HW either way. Additionally, taking issue with the darkness trying to cover the light is blatantly a hasty generalization because at that point the worlds had already been split thanks to the efforts of Pluto who had created a thin veil between realms. Not to mention that in the past (when the HW first was created) it would've just been another part of the Demonworld ultimately which makes your whole point self-defeating.

Also I don't know why you expect an instantaneous feat of assimilation as though that alone disproves the fact that the DW is infinitely larger then the HW (especially seeing as you lack contextual help and linguistic assistance from the source materials which outright tell us the DW is infinitely larger no matter what with no implication of the worlds changing in essential size at some point) which is (you guessed it), non-sequitur reasoning. It is not necessary that a infinitely larger realm should have to prove its infinitude over the smaller realm by instantaneous consumption when simply the statement alone without contradictions should be enough to support this. In fact Mundus clambering to refuse the worlds already split demonstrates this in the very scan you utilized so carelessly. Oh and to take one last dig at your points you should know that in present times we do have an example of a space time continuum contained by the ever larger DW in the form of Mundus's Demon Emperor Space Heaven created in his palace: A palace which can contain a universe which even by 1's metrics is a continuum. Bam, no basis for equivalency anymore.

All in all I care little about 2-A right now as votes make the final determination on this site regardless of anyone's points, but this rather obtuse interpretation with regard to HW versus DW scaling equivalent is not one I will allow to be upheld on site, at least not without something of a battle in response.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

2-A is for cosmologies consisting of and infinite number of Low 2-C sized universes. We do know of the 9 realms/dimensions that would be 2-C minimum assuming those dimensions are just regular sized universes. But the "Infinitely larger" implies there is a dimensional layer or something, not that it's just and infinite number of 2-C sized realms. It still sounds like there are just 9 realms that happen to be part of a bigger dimension. Though I can understand if it is vague.

So I again do not mind a downgrade to 2-C or and upgrade to Low 1-C either way, but I still think 2-A sounds like an oddly specific middle.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

2-A is for cosmologies consisting of and infinite number of Low 2-C sized universes. We do know of the 9 realms/dimensions that would be 2-C minimum assuming those dimensions are just regular sized universes. But the "Infinitely larger" implies there is a dimensional layer or something, not that it's just and infinite number of 2-C sized realms. It still sounds like there are just 9 realms that happen to be part of a bigger dimension. Though I can understand if it is vague.

So I again do not mind a downgrade to 2-C or and upgrade to Low 1-C either way, but I still think 2-A sounds like an oddly specific middle.

Am I getting deja vu or did you not already comment on this, in the thread earlier? I feel like I have read this exact comment before...

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Am I getting deja vu or did you not already comment on this, in the thread earlier? I feel like I have read this exact comment before...

I reaffirmed my opinion hasn't changed, but this 2nd post clarified more details compared to what I said first.

 

[Hypercyber37]

Disagree

 

[CloverDragon03]

Being able to contain infinite was the centre of it, yes.

But the question was whether being infinite + containing a Low 2-C structure = being able to contain infinite Low 2-C structures.

The DMC question was whether being infinite + containing a Low 2-C structure + being directly compared to it as infinite while the Low 2-C space is treated as finite by comparison = able to contain infinite of the Low 2-C space.

The Demon World is not directly compared to the Human World as infinite, which I will explain in my responses to other people

Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence, there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals.

Now lets get to the bane of all your concerns. Lets focus on the term "split":

What does split mean? Separation. What the panel says is that the world was split in two. The Darkness became the world of Demons meanwhile the Light became the world of Humans and if you still didn't understood the assignment yet, Light and Darkness are two objects...

At no point does the scan implies that the split was relative in size, you’re trying to insert an interpretation that simply isn’t there. If the intended meaning was "divided into two parts" the wording would have been "split in half".

I find it ironic that you emphasize specific wordings when you get on me for doing the same thing. Stuff like Mundus wanting to make the two worlds one is meaningless if one of them is infinitely larger than the other, that would literally be no skin off the Demon World's nose. The split being mentioned would not be relevant at all if one realm was infinitely larger than the other. Straight up.

Your entire argument literally hinges on an assumption that the scan does not support. You’re trying to force a meaning onto a word that doesn’t go well with what you’re claiming here.

The thing is that I'd say it's your argument that does this. You insist one realm is infinite relative to another based on a single thing that isn't even an actual comparison and ignore the self-evident intent of the split being an equality of light and dark

And I won't even bother to amuse the "grew into Human World" nonsense. I, right now, demand you to prove me where it say that it grew into a universe. I'm waiting here to see the response.

Tell me, is the Human World just light and that's it? No, it's a whole universe with living beings. It's obvious the light didn't remain as just that, based on that alone. The fact that the light verbatim "became" the Human World makes it clear that the ray of light didn't remain just a ray of light

As for visuals, that's literally how the entire manga is set. I can bring you countless panels where a different thing is being talked about and a whole different image is shown in support for it.

I don't care for any whataboutisms, I'm talking about this specific panel where the light is clearly not infinitely smaller than the darkness

This is the reason why I believe people who don't have clear knowledge over the verse shouldn't touch it at all as they will just only mess things up...

I question basic reading comprehensive capabilities here, the term "merge" means combining and that's exactly what happens here. If you want statements to spoon-feed you with "assimilation" then sorry, but chances are 99% of the verses can't get that blatant to satisfy your nitpicking issues.

You were focusing on specific wordings with your own argument just earlier, no? This shows that you do understand the importance of different wordings in communicating different meanings.

This is to say, it's not just some meaningless semantic difference. "Merge" and "assimilation" have different meanings, and the fact that it's the former communicates something different than if it were the latter. "Fusing" a Low 2-C realm with a 2-A realm is not a merge. It's an assimilation. There wouldn't be any struggle to bring them together, it would be trivial.

Also, "question basic reading comprehension." Yeah ok

As for "light trying to escape" statement, it’s a metaphor for humanity’s struggle against demonkind in the past. It has absolutely nothing to do with size comparisons or whatever irrelevant nonsense you’re trying to push.

You know what?

I agree, actually. I should not have put that there, but I think Mundus's statement about bringing them together in the same scan helps me all the same.

Your "narratives" are completely contradictory here then. By your logic, we may as well claim:

• Dragon Ball can’t be 5D.
• Base Sonic can’t be universal.
• Bleach can’t be universal.

And the list goes on & on...

You’re selective skepticism to DMC while ignoring how similar logic is used in countless other franchises. If your standard were applied consistently then chances are half of the widely accepted ratings for the verses would fall apart.

More whataboutisms, and awful ones at that.

• Yes, Dragon Ball shouldn't be 5-D. I'd even say that DBS being 2-C throughout the entire series is also wrong, along with Toei DBZ/GT being 2-C.
• Funny you say that when I've developed my own skepticisms of it, and the main thing keeping it afloat for me is Sonic face-tanking an explosion that split the universe.
• Isn't the Royal Guard's true power literally able to shake the three realms? As in, that's stated by the characters themselves? I was skeptical until this came around, so this is not a good whataboutism

As you can see, this attempt to brand me a hypocrite and being biased against DMC falls apart. I simply want the verse to have accurate ratings, and I'd hope y'all do as well

First and foremost the interpretation that the light and darkness grew into the HW and DW is blatantly non-sequitur as there is no implication that this is the case. The darkness becoming known as the DW or light becoming known as the HW simply would mean that the spaces came to be known as the DW and HW with time, however, this is speaking more future tense in the sense that the DW and HW were still a combination at that point.

You're arguing against the very lore here. Unless you're trying to tell me that the HW and DW are literally just light and darkness despite the fact that they're clearly now lived-in worlds.

Unfortunately, the problems just don't stop there, the fact that you're arguing equality shows an incapacity to understand basic literature as the page illustration comparing the darkness and light that came to be known as HW and DW with the darkness all around the light. Not to mention that every interaction between the realms leads to the HW's consumption. This is never once contradicted even once as every, interaction, between worlds always ends with the DW consuming the HW by its own nature at no cost to itself whatsoever in a verse where the DW is fueled by demonic energy which upscaled the DW over the HW either way. Additionally, taking issue with the darkness trying to cover the light is blatantly a hasty generalization because at that point the worlds had already been split thanks to the efforts of Pluto who had created a thin veil between realms. Not to mention that in the past (when the HW first was created) it would've just been another part of the Demonworld ultimately which makes your whole point self-defeating.

"Incapacity to understand basic literature" Yeah **** off with that ChatGPT-tier insult. Is your way to prevent people from revising the verse just hounding anyone who does?

For the "every interaction" part, the first scan just talks about the Human World getting affected by the Demon World's approach, which isn't the same as it being actively being consumed by it. Its "approach" is just as possible with a proper merge. Same for the whole "consuming" stuff in the second scan, because when the worlds were one there used to only be darkness. The point of merging them is to bring it back to that point. The Demon World lost what was once belonging to it so now it's trying to get it back by making the two halves whole. The reason it's at no cost to the Demon World is because what would become the Demon World used to be all there was (the darkness).

The demonic energy point genuinely just doesn't prove anything as far as size is concerned.

I know about the veil between the Demon World and the Human World, that's literally what Mundus was trying to break through to merge the realms together. Nothing new here, plus the scan you used has another "uniting the demon world and human world" statement, so more for me I guess.

And the "another part of the Demon World" scan also just... legitimately does not say anything like that? Like, yeah, all that existed was the darkness at first, before the light came in and caused a split where the remaining darkness became the Demon World and the light became the Human World. This is just the demons trying to make the two worlds one again, taking back what was once theirs and all.

Also I don't know why you expect an instantaneous feat of assimilation as though that alone disproves the fact that the DW is infinitely larger then the HW (especially seeing as you lack contextual help and linguistic assistance from the source materials which outright tell us the DW is infinitely larger no matter what with no implication of the worlds changing in essential size at some point) which is (you guessed it), non-sequitur reasoning. It is not necessary that a infinitely larger realm should have to prove its infinitude over the smaller realm by instantaneous consumption when simply the statement alone without contradictions should be enough to support this.

Your source materials, as I have explained, don't actually show this. You're pretty much claiming a non-sequitur from nothing. And like, yeah, if a realm is infinitely larger than another realm, assimilating the smaller one would legitimately be no issue. Not to mention the fact that it would be an "assimilation," but a "fusion" or "merge."

In fact Mundus clambering to refuse the worlds already split demonstrates this in the very scan you utilized so carelessly.

You just gave me another scan that helps my point, you know that right? I don't think you realize just how significant the difference in magnitude is, to the point that this really shouldn't even be a struggle, yet it is. Not to mention the obvious "light and dark as two halves" thing going on with this whole thing...

Oh and to take one last dig at your points you should know that in present times we do have an example of a space time continuum contained by the ever larger DW in the form of Mundus's Demon Emperor Space Heaven created in his palace: A palace which can contain a universe which even by 1's metrics is a continuum. Bam, no basis for equivalency anymore.

...A realm that doesn't always exist, but rather, he just creates whenever he wants? This just shows how the Demon World is infinite in size... which we already knew. An infinite Low 2-C structure can contain an infinitely expanding universe, yes - because it being infinitely expanding means it's not infinite in size.

So yeah, this point doesn't help you at all either.

So overall, none of the given points actually do anything to discredit the argument I've made. I don't intend to keep a string of incredibly long responses going, so more than anything, I'll use this response to implore any staff who look at this thread to consider the OP and the arguments I've made now against the rebuttals to reach an informed decision. I hope you also consider the accepted staff thread that bars such cases from being 2-A as well, because this does fall into such a case, contrary to what has been claimed.

 

[StrymULTRA]

• Yes, Dragon Ball shouldn't be 5-D. I'd even say that DBS being 2-C throughout the entire series is also wrong, along with Toei DBZ/GT being 2-C.

If you wanna make a downgrade on that I can help, but it'd be Staff Only though.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Could you please not put DB in the middle of your discussion?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Could you please not put DB in the middle of your discussion?

Wasn't my intention, it was just brought up as a whataboutism so I felt I had to respond to it

We should avoid derailing from DMC tho, yes

 

[Unoriginal777]

The Demon World is not directly compared to the Human World as infinite, which I will explain in my responses to other people

I find it ironic that you emphasize specific wordings when you get on me for doing the same thing. Stuff like Mundus wanting to make the two worlds one is meaningless if one of them is infinitely larger than the other, that would literally be no skin off the Demon World's nose. The split being mentioned would not be relevant at all if one realm was infinitely larger than the other. Straight up.

The thing is that I'd say it's your argument that does this. You insist one realm is infinite relative to another based on a single thing that isn't even an actual comparison and ignore the self-evident intent of the split being an equality of light and dark

Tell me, is the Human World just light and that's it? No, it's a whole universe with living beings. It's obvious the light didn't remain as just that, based on that alone. The fact that the light verbatim "became" the Human World makes it clear that the ray of light didn't remain just a ray of light

I don't care for any whataboutisms, I'm talking about this specific panel where the light is clearly not infinitely smaller than the darkness

You were focusing on specific wordings with your own argument just earlier, no? This shows that you do understand the importance of different wordings in communicating different meanings.

This is to say, it's not just some meaningless semantic difference. "Merge" and "assimilation" have different meanings, and the fact that it's the former communicates something different than if it were the latter. "Fusing" a Low 2-C realm with a 2-A realm is not a merge. It's an assimilation. There wouldn't be any struggle to bring them together, it would be trivial.

Also, "question basic reading comprehension." Yeah ok

You know what?

I agree, actually. I should not have put that there, but I think Mundus's statement about bringing them together in the same scan helps me all the same.

More whataboutisms, and awful ones at that.

• Yes, Dragon Ball shouldn't be 5-D. I'd even say that DBS being 2-C throughout the entire series is also wrong, along with Toei DBZ/GT being 2-C.
• Funny you say that when I've developed my own skepticisms of it, and the main thing keeping it afloat for me is Sonic face-tanking an explosion that split the universe.
• Isn't the Royal Guard's true power literally able to shake the three realms? As in, that's stated by the characters themselves? I was skeptical until this came around, so this is not a good whataboutism

As you can see, this attempt to brand me a hypocrite and being biased against DMC falls apart. I simply want the verse to have accurate ratings, and I'd hope y'all do as well

You're arguing against the very lore here. Unless you're trying to tell me that the HW and DW are literally just light and darkness despite the fact that they're clearly now lived-in worlds.

"Incapacity to understand basic literature" Yeah **** off with that ChatGPT-tier insult. Is your way to prevent people from revising the verse just hounding anyone who does?

For the "every interaction" part, the first scan just talks about the Human World getting affected by the Demon World's approach, which isn't the same as it being actively being consumed by it. Its "approach" is just as possible with a proper merge. Same for the whole "consuming" stuff in the second scan, because when the worlds were one there used to only be darkness. The point of merging them is to bring it back to that point. The Demon World lost what was once belonging to it so now it's trying to get it back by making the two halves whole. The reason it's at no cost to the Demon World is because what would become the Demon World used to be all there was (the darkness).

The demonic energy point genuinely just doesn't prove anything as far as size is concerned.

I know about the veil between the Demon World and the Human World, that's literally what Mundus was trying to break through to merge the realms together. Nothing new here, plus the scan you used has another "uniting the demon world and human world" statement, so more for me I guess.

And the "another part of the Demon World" scan also just... legitimately does not say anything like that? Like, yeah, all that existed was the darkness at first, before the light came in and caused a split where the remaining darkness became the Demon World and the light became the Human World. This is just the demons trying to make the two worlds one again, taking back what was once theirs and all.

Your source materials, as I have explained, don't actually show this. You're pretty much claiming a non-sequitur from nothing. And like, yeah, if a realm is infinitely larger than another realm, assimilating the smaller one would legitimately be no issue. Not to mention the fact that it would be an "assimilation," but a "fusion" or "merge."

You just gave me another scan that helps my point, you know that right? I don't think you realize just how significant the difference in magnitude is, to the point that this really shouldn't even be a struggle, yet it is. Not to mention the obvious "light and dark as two halves" thing going on with this whole thing...

...A realm that doesn't always exist, but rather, he just creates whenever he wants? This just shows how the Demon World is infinite in size... which we already knew. An infinite Low 2-C structure can contain an infinitely expanding universe, yes - because it being infinitely expanding means it's not infinite in size.

So yeah, this point doesn't help you at all either.

So overall, none of the given points actually do anything to discredit the argument I've made. I don't intend to keep a string of incredibly long responses going, so more than anything, I'll use this response to implore any staff who look at this thread to consider the OP and the arguments I've made now against the rebuttals to reach an informed decision. I hope you also consider the accepted staff thread that bars such cases from being 2-A as well, because this does fall into such a case, contrary to what has been claimed.

First and foremost the terms light and darkness are little more then titles as a scan I've shown previously has clearly illustrated that the HW is known as the world of light while the DW has been called the land of eternal darkness even during the time of Mundus's desire to refuse the worlds during which humanity had already been walking the earth. So unless you wanna argue based on nominal fallacy + hasty generalization alone on the composition of the two worlds I suggest you stay well away from that manner of argumentation. Oh and to save you from making the admittedly easy error of equating the endless darkness acclaim to mere title fluff seeing as it is similar to the aforementioned eternal darkness keep in mind again that the page shows the HW literally being surrounded by the DW's darkness which is a size comparison if nothing else when paired with size involved language like unending when compared to another structure that's not unending. Not to mention the sentence structure makes this blatantly clear by giving the darkness the acclaim of being unending while the HW was only a mere ray of light that was pasted into this world of darkness.

Being affected by the DW just by its approach without any reference to the DW being affected by its approach to the HW is itself a sign of superiority between the spaces. Afterall, if the two spaces were equivalent wouldn't the DW be warped by the HW due to close proximity. Unfortunately for you, the opposite pretty directly happens.

I'll admit today I've come off from a pretty bad day yesterday so I should've restrained myself with my insults. I hope that is sufficient to clear the air between us as we focus on the more important thing: the strength of argumentation.

Yeah and the remaining darkness was much, much larger then the light. The Darkness was unending in comparison actually while the Light was a finite ray. You're not helping your own case here.

You're still doing a non-sequitur because a cosmological structure's size doesn't necessarily correlate to its ability to eat/absorb a smaller structure. By this metric even if for example Mundus were to say outright that the DW is and I quote "infinitely bigger then the finite Human world" with multiple characters affirming it as such even with the most direct references to set theory you'd just argue based on a strange criterion that being infinitely larger means that the DW should be able to eat the HW immediately. I mean are you expecting the DW to open it jaws wide across the entire spectrum of the space and just swallow it? I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here? If the story says a space is infinitely bigger directly with no contradictions then it's infinitely bigger. This shouldn't be a strange concept all things considered when the criterion you're using to argue against it is completely unrelated.

Ah yes, a realm that doesn't always exist, but nevertheless fits inside the Mundus palace. Not to mention again, I find it intriguing how you ignored the idea that a "universe" as a category in DMC1 is meant to be a space-time continuum especially when the intention behind the Mundus space heaven was to be a space as large as our own universe. You didn't address this so for now you fall victim to Hitchen's razor.

Again I care little for the 2-A issue as the thread @LordGriffin1000 made had mods primarily vote in favor of a 2-A standard that doesn't favor DMC when all is said and done. Additionally, I can sympathize with the desire to not want to make a long string of responses. Unfortunately for you, I don't share that concern and your unwillingness to engage in depth is ultimately not my problem. Feel free to ignore this comment if you wish to not respond further, but I'll post it anyways for any staff passing by to ensure that DMC lore isn't tarnished by what I perceive to be clear misinterpretation.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Cut it out, Strym. This is not the place nor the time.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Fine I was just having some fun with light shitposts, but if people get annoyed that's alr.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Fine I was just having some fun with light shitposts, but if people get annoyed that's alr.

No fun is illegal now we're going to hit you with hammers in the name of tier 2 DB

I agree with Clover

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

That being said, it can be accepted or not is not really my concern. I just want to make some things clear here that was brought countless times in the past & yet it keeps coming back for some reason.

Then should we just make a rule if DMC gets accepted to 2-A again

 

[Random-Helper323]

I find it ironic that you emphasize specific wordings when you get on me for doing the same thing.

It's not about the specific wording. It's the fact that you have a set interpretation for what you want one word to mean and you're running with it.

Stuff like Mundus wanting to make the two worlds one is meaningless if one of them is infinitely larger than the other, that would literally be no skin off the Demon World's nose.

If I'm being honest, I only say the infinite part because the scan definitely seems to point to that. So for my part here I'm instead going to focus on your assertion that the worlds are equal in size.

This is simply semantics again, this use of the word "one", but basically you're saying that Mundus wouldn't want it if they weren't equal in size. Even though we know human blood is a source of power for demons via the Qliphoth, thus creating a reason to want the world.

The split being mentioned would not be relevant at all if one realm was infinitely larger than the other. Straight up.

It'd certainly be relevant to the smaller world, which is where all the characters shown in the manga reside.

the self-evident intent of the split being an equality of light and dark

This is a headcanon, Clover. I'm truly sorry to throw such terms at you, but that's what this is. Even the Wiki prior to the 2-A stuff treated the demon world as infinite and the human world as finite. So either you're suggesting the human world is also infinite (in fairness it is a universe, and I suppose it isn't ruled out for it to be a multiverses in future entries) or that all the evidence calling the demon world infinite are false. In addition, the demon world already contains spaces that have their own separate time flow and are themselves universal in size.

The evidence you're presenting is literally just your own interpretation of words like "split in two" or "merge" to mean equal split even when the words don't mean that, and extrapolating from Mundus wanting the human world to mean it must be equal in size. These genuinely are non-sequitars. You are presenting these words and events, and you are interpreting them in a specific way which leads to a conclusion which was never lead to by either.

Tell me, is the Human World just light and that's it? No, it's a whole universe with living beings. It's obvious the light didn't remain as just that, based on that alone. The fact that the light verbatim "became" the Human World makes it clear that the ray of light didn't remain just a ray of light

The statement was obviously comparing it to the demon world. You're choosing to take the ray of light statement as something other than a point of contrast with the demon world, and you're talking about it growing from a literal ray of light into a universe rather than just already being one.

I don't care for any whataboutisms

This term is enormously abused here, to be honest. What people call whataboutism is actually precedent, a term that's used as the foundation in real life law. Given that the Wiki is built heavily on adhering to a set of rules, treating different verses differently would seem to go against such rules, even further making precedent important.

You were focusing on specific wordings with your own argument just earlier, no? This shows that you do understand the importance of different wordings in communicating different meanings.

It isn't about the use of specific wording. It's about your interpretation of these words to mean something that isn't even in the literal definition and requires a very specific confirmation bias from you.

This is to say, it's not just some meaningless semantic difference. "Merge" and "assimilation" have different meanings, and the fact that it's the former communicates something different than if it were the latter. "Fusing" a Low 2-C realm with a 2-A realm is not a merge. It's an assimilation. There wouldn't be any struggle to bring them together, it would be trivial.

Where in the definition of merge does it say they're equal? In addition, that's usually not the wording used.

I agree, actually. I should not have put that there, but I think Mundus's statement about bringing them together in the same scan helps me all the same.

These don't prove equal size, especially when one is described as infinite and contains other universes inside it, and neither is shown to be true of the other one.

More whataboutisms, and awful ones at that.

• Yes, Dragon Ball shouldn't be 5-D. I'd even say that DBS being 2-C throughout the entire series is also wrong, along with Toei DBZ/GT being 2-C.
• Funny you say that when I've developed my own skepticisms of it, and the main thing keeping it afloat for me is Sonic face-tanking an explosion that split the universe.
• Isn't the Royal Guard's true power literally able to shake the three realms? As in, that's stated by the characters themselves? I was skeptical until this came around, so this is not a good whataboutism

These are precedents. Precedent is a major principle on which real life law functions, and meanwhile "whataboutism" isn't even a real word. Also, aren't those feats described for Bleach and Sonic 2-C or Low 2-C feats?

 

[CloverDragon03]

@Random-Helper323 Trying to dismiss the fact that these are whataboutisms with stuff like "precedent" doesn't help. Each verse is its own thing, this is just a bad attempt to brand me as some hypocrite who is biased against DMC. Same goes for the "confirmation bias" and "what you want it to mean" crap. This is literally just what I'm getting from consuming this media you've all consumed, y'all are just trying to make it look worse in an attempt to lower my credibility. Stop it.

 

[Unoriginal777]

@Random-Helper323 Trying to dismiss the fact that these are whataboutisms with stuff like "precedent" doesn't help. Each verse is its own thing, this is just a bad attempt to brand me as some hypocrite who is biased against DMC. Same goes for the "confirmation bias" and "what you want it to mean" crap. This is literally just what I'm getting from consuming this media you've all consumed, y'all are just trying to make it look worse in an attempt to lower my credibility. Stop it.

Yes, but when dealing with certain trends like the categories of say soul manipulation, cosmology size, etc. we look to past acceptances on similar grounds which set a pattern or precedent for how we do things moving forward. This is how any scaling wiki works. It's why we even have scaling wiki categories in the first place so that we can see what fits when looking back at the standards given the precedent set in the past. Hell, the friggin laws of any consistent institution will work this way including, but not limited to our government, our job, our communities, our educational institutions, etc. This isn't as insane an idea as you think even if you think the evidences for a modern instance of appeal to similar precedent set in the past is done clumsily because the past is what ultimately informs how we work going forward. The fact that I'm typing this message to you right now instead of doing my own thing and mailing you my responses through the mailbox is because observations of consistent interactions on this site shows me the precedent for everything being done on the threads proper. Also if you wanna play on "every verse is its own thing" you might as well just save us all the trouble and give up scaling altogether which reasons based on similar patterns and the precedents they set for differing verses despite each being their own "thing" as it were. I rest my case.

 

[Random-Helper323]

@Random-Helper323 Trying to dismiss the fact that these are whataboutisms with stuff like "precedent" doesn't help

Precedent is important, and making up some nonsense word like "Whataboutism" to act like precedent isn't a major part of following written and documented rules is not good. In real life law, precedent is used to look at existing applications of the written law. This "Whataboutism" thing is basically saying that the rules don't have to be applied equally or consistently. Is the Wiki a system built on adhering to written rules, or not?

. Each verse is its own thing, this is just a bad attempt to brand me as some hypocrite who is biased against DMC.

I am attempting no such thing. I have said you have your own interpretation, and you have a confirmation bias towards that interpretation. Why else would you be extrapolating words to mean something they don't even mean by definition, and assuming that Mundus wanting it back when human blood is a power source somehow proves the worlds are equal in size? I'm not accusing you of hating the verse, I'm telling you that your existing interpretation is fuelled by confirmation bias.

Same goes for the "confirmation bias" and "what you want it to mean" crap. This is literally just what I'm getting from consuming this media you've all consumed, y'all are just trying to make it look worse in an attempt to lower my credibility. Stop it.

I am not. I have not attempted any such thing, and right now out of the two of us the only one accusing the other of a despicable act is you. So to use your own wording, stop it.

The problem is that you have a picture in your head of the two worlds as equal in size (no answer as to whether you're trying to push for an infinite human world or oppose the demon world's infinite size), and are taking everything to support that even when the evidence clearly doesn't lead to that.

You're interpreting words like "merge" and terms like being one to mean equal halves when neither the depiction nor the definition lead to this. You're saying Mundus wanting the human world proves it's equal in size to the demon world even though we know human blood is a power source for demons. You're saying that the scenes where the demon world encroaches wouldn't take time if they weren't equal in size even though that doesn't seem to mean much of anything.

 

[Unoriginal777]

Precedent is important, and making up some nonsense word like "Whataboutism" to act like precedent isn't a major part of following written and documented rules is not good. In real life law, precedent is used to look at existing applications of the written law. This "Whataboutism" thing is basically saying that the rules don't have to be applied equally or consistently. Is the Wiki a system built on adhering to written rules, or not?

I am attempting no such thing. I have said you have your own interpretation, and you have a confirmation bias towards that interpretation. Why else would you be extrapolating words to mean something they don't even mean by definition, and assuming that Mundus wanting it back when human blood is a power source somehow proves the worlds are equal in size? I'm not accusing you of hating the verse, I'm telling you that your existing interpretation is fuelled by confirmation bias.

I am not. I have not attempted any such thing, and right now out of the two of us the only one accusing the other of a despicable act is you. So to use your own wording, stop it.

The problem is that you have a picture in your head of the two worlds as equal in size (no answer as to whether you're trying to push for an infinite human world or oppose the demon world's infinite size), and are taking everything to support that even when the evidence clearly doesn't lead to that.

You're interpreting words like "merge" and terms like being one to mean equal halves when neither the depiction nor the definition lead to this. You're saying Mundus wanting the human world proves it's equal in size to the demon world even though we know human blood is a power source for demons. You're saying that the scenes where the demon world encroaches wouldn't take time if they weren't equal in size even though that doesn't seem to mean much of anything.

To add some support to your point our mutual friend @CloverDragon03 should be aware of the notion of company mergers in which a much smaller company merges with a larger company. Our English dictionary also tells us that nothing necessarily requires that a merge be between two equivalent components. Arguing that it does is arguably one of the most peculiar forms of non-sequitur I've seen in a while (i.e., I mean by this metric we could conclude for example that a fusion between Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be considered as them merging because they have different heights. Funny how merge is the exact word used in that instance).

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

I don't think focusing on the whataboutism portion of Clover's argument is doing anything for you two, really.

Why hyperfixate on that, specifically?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

I don't think focusing on the whataboutism portion of Clover's argument is doing anything for you two, really.

Why hyperfixate on that, specifically?

Its his weakest point

 

[CloverDragon03]

Precedent is important, and making up some nonsense word like "Whataboutism" to act like precedent isn't a major part of following written and documented rules is not good. In real life law, precedent is used to look at existing applications of the written law. This "Whataboutism" thing is basically saying that the rules don't have to be applied equally or consistently. Is the Wiki a system built on adhering to written rules, or not?

But there's no precedent here, it's just talking about the importance of the narrative and then SuperSonic brought in random examples as an attempt at some kind of appeal idk. To go off of what Unoriginal was saying, this is important for certain trends like with Soul Hax, cosmology sizes, etc, but this was none of that. It was a nothing-burger of just random stuff from other verses attempting to pull a "gotcha" on me.

The problem is that you have a picture in your head of the two worlds as equal in size (no answer as to whether you're trying to push for an infinite human world or oppose the demon world's infinite size), and are taking everything to support that even when the evidence clearly doesn't lead to that.

(I'd vouch for infinite size human world tbh)

You're interpreting words like "merge" and terms like being one to mean equal halves when neither the depiction nor the definition lead to this. You're saying Mundus wanting the human world proves it's equal in size to the demon world even though we know human blood is a power source for demons. You're saying that the scenes where the demon world encroaches wouldn't take time if they weren't equal in size even though that doesn't seem to mean much of anything.

To illustrate what you've said about precedent, these sorts of merges have always been between equal-sized realms. Unlike the examples that I called "whataboutism," this would fall under the concept of precedent, in my opinion. When cosmological merges are brought up, this is what comes to mind for me. And I believe it's supported beyond just being what first comes to mind. A realm physically consuming an infinitely larger realm would not be a struggle, I'd say

 

[Unoriginal777]

I don't think focusing on the whataboutism portion of Clover's argument is doing anything for you two, really.

Why hyperfixate on that, specifically?

Just felt like adding input I guess.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

(I'd vouch for infinite size human world tbh)

So an infinite human world is an infinitely smaller part of an infinite darkness?
You know what we call that - 2-A

 

[CloverDragon03]

Anyways I think precedent and whataboutisms are two concepts that seem similar on the surface, but while Unoriginal brought up examples of precedents, I don't think what was brought up to me was a case of that. That's all from me on this topic, I don't think it's too worth getting caught in the weeds over compared to everything else

 

[StrymULTRA]

TBF, I do not really think that the Demon World being infinitely larger than the Human World really matters, ultimately (in this Wiki that is).

The reason is because by the virtue of them being both 4-D SpaceTime continuums, they're by default Infinite-Sized, otherwise they'd not be Universal+ to begin with, the 3-D size of a universe ultimately matters little in its tiering, as the 4-D axis of time is what matters and makes them Uni+ in AP after all.

A palace which can contain a universe which even by 1's metrics is a continuum.

This still wouldn't make the Demon World even 2-C tbh. The blog you linked seems to only confirm that only Human and Demon Worlds have different time, but the "universes" inside the Demon World would still be part of the same space-time continuum, as:

• The Worlds being different bodies of space is not enough to consider them universes, as that does not quite prove they have different timelines. Especially if they are afterlives. Afterlives often are different bodies of space, but are generally condensed in the same timeline unless there's more proof otherwise.
• High 3-A: Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass, or those who can affect an infinite 3-D space. This extends to an infinite number of finite or infinite-sized 3-D universes or pocket dimensions when not accounting for any higher dimensions or time. Large numbers of infinite 3-D universes, unless causally closed from one another by a separate spacetime or existence, only count for a higher level of this tier. Being "infinitely" stronger than this level, unless uncountably so, does not qualify for any higher tier.

Nothing says that the universe made by Mundus is its own space-time continuum, just another place in the same timeline at best.

Not to mention that being infinitely sized compared to a single timeline is meaningless regardless, as what would matter here is the distance between universes as that stuff is 5-D (as it's between 2 separate 4-D stuffs), something the Demon World does not cover, as the requirement for 2-C to 2-A is to affect also said 5-D distance instead of just 4-D things.

 

[CloverDragon03]

So an infinite human world is an infinitely smaller part of an infinite darkness?
You know what we call that - 2-A

No I think the human world is not an infinitely smaller part of the demon world. I think they are two equal-sized infinite structures, so merging them would be a 2-C feat

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

No I think the human world is not an infinitely smaller part of the demon world. I think they are two equal-sized infinite structures, so merging them would be a 2-C feat

I mean if you call one unending darkness and the other a ray of light I think it is logical to assume one is bigger than the other.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean if you call one unending darkness and the other a ray of light I think it is logical to assume one is bigger than the other.

This was legit what my whole OP was about man, if you agree cool, if you disagree also cool

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean if you call one unending darkness and the other a ray of light I think it is logical to assume one is bigger than the other.

Not to an infinite degree though.

Plus, even if it's true, it wouldn't matter for the reasons I told above.