Devil May Cry: Beastheads Revisions

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Spoiler: OP snip spoiler

Beastheads General Resistances for Demons​

This here is all the evidence needed for proving demons resist Beastheads general abilities sans the more higher esoteric ones. The entire working and process is explained as well. This is current profile as of now for Beastheads. I will mention all general and esoteric abilities here

Abilities:​

1. Reality Warping (Fate Manipulation/Blessing/Protection) -Binds the marked target to be consumed by Beastheads, those 'blessed' by said mark will be protected by Beastheads to survive all atrocities and threats until said fate is met. For example Beryl was marked for absorption, which allowed her to keep pace and confront various higher calibre foes and survive extreme phenomenon such as Demon Nexus and destruction of Void Mundus. Her Fate was only averted by intervention of Dante.
2. Clairvoyance [Low 1-A] (Precognition, Retrocognition, Cosmic Awareness) - Is embodiment of past, present and future. Has awareness beyond every possible space, time and dimensions.
3. Telekinesis/Telepathy - Can use mental powers such to manipulate objects or erase them such as when he eradicated Dante's E&I bullets which have souls. Can attempt mental possession of it's opponents.
4. Reality Warping (Causality Manipulation) - Can manipulate events on greater scale than lesser demons. Part of it's fate manipulating abilities.
5. Reality Warping (Space-Time Manipulation) -Is embodiment of time. Can manipulate space & time across all it's awareness, protecting it's marked victims even across realities. Capable of sending & bringing it's victims to & from alternate timelines.
6. Demon World Energy Manipulation - Has direct access to energy of Demon World, thus all it's abilities.
7. Soul Manipulation (DMC), Matter Manipulation, Absorption, Transmutation, Deconstruction, Corruption - Assimilation process, which assimilates human mass and soul by deconstructing them into basic magical energy, and in the process they also transmute human matter and soul to stone. Can also grant direct demonic physiology and abilities to it's user.
8. Reactive Evolution & Accelerated Development - Beastheads can improve it's powers, abilities or gain new ones in proportion to how much it is pressured. Displayed by both Ducas and Chen while wielding Beastheads.
9. Information Analysis, Analytical Prediction, Power Mimicry - Can read and copy skills, knowledge and abilities across all it's awareness. Can even create powerful replica weapons such as Demon Sword Sparda.
10. Resistance to Power nullification and Absorption - Is unaffected by power draining room and gel.
11. Death Manipulation - It's powers can make everything lose life and warmth, bringing death to the world.
12. Law Manipulation - It not only defies laws but also distorts them heavily.
13. Weather Manipulation and Vibration Manipulation - Warped the weather around it and shook the world.

Conclusive Resistances for Demons:​

1. Fate Manipulation - Demons resist getting bound by Beastheads.
2. Soul Manipulation (DMC), Matter Manipulation, Absorption, Transmutation, Deconstruction, Corruption - Demons resist assimilation.
3. Death Manipulation - Demons don't die from death aura of Beastheads.

Range of Beastheads:​

Beastheads has influence over the entire multiverse and beyond. An example of this showcase is him transporting individuals between various timelines in multiverse, and protect it's marked victim in alternate timelines. This blog delves deep into the multiverse of DMC.

Ok, I reread the whole book with time to spare to enjoy another fine evening, probably out again. Trying to keep this quick & simple. TL;DR is that a lot of the OP is dubious but there are a few okay points. It's better than the terrible current page, but we can do much better still. No sense in having any shaky foundations.

Spoiler: "Beastheads abilities" section

"Beastheads abilities" section

1. This one really needs elaboration. Maybe I glazed over something, but I don't get what OP is getting at from the sourced material or from Divinity Statue's translation (page 87). It sounds more as if the Beastheads are trying to mentally attack Beyrl; I don't see where this Fate Manipulation or otherwise bending reality to arrange for her to a certain point is coming from. She seems to survive through the story by her own competence as well as just letting Dante handle things out of her depth, not some sort of weird predestination thing. Leaning no.
2. Precog & Retrocog are self-explanatory since they are demonstrated, yes. Cosmic Awareness is a tougher sell since Chen is more vocalizing what he wants from the Beastheads than demonstrating Cosmic Awareness itself. I guess that since the Beastheads can BFR people to alternate timelines that they might have that kind of range, but I'm not sure that this fits VBW's standards for Cosmic Awareness. Absolute yes on precog & retrocog, leaving others more familiar with VBW standards for cosmic awareness.
3. Not sure why there's an aside about bullet souls, but yes on telekinesis. Plus something or other for "the volley blinking out of existence as Ducas mentally eradicated the bullets" on page 93. And maybe telepathy, though that which was mentioned in the first point was more of a curse on those who interacted with the Beastheads totem than active reading. Lotta these abilities affect only those who pick up the totem/accept the Faustian bargain or get the Not-Berserk brand Beryl got, as opposed to pulling them on anyone whenever.
4. Way too non-specific too call "causality manipulation." If I got my henchmen to drag you away from your house to me, or even if I teleported you here or made the weather make a big tidal wave to wash you to my doorstep, that isn't necessarily causality manipulation. I recommend reading the wiki's pages on these abilities before trying to apply them to CRTs.
5. Ah, careful, don't call the Beastheads an embodiment of time. 'Round these here parts, being an embodiment of something has some loaded connotations that they don't meet, abstract existence stuff. I may have a necklace that symbolizes a religious concept, but that doesn't make me or the necklace a god. And, why is there a dozen or more irrelevant screencaps in that first link? As far as I can tell, the Beastheads don't manipulate spacetime beyond BFR, pre/retrocog, and maybe some kind of erasure judging by what they did to Dante's bullets. Oh, and ensuring Ducas's winning streaks at the casinos.
6. "Demon World Energy Manipulation" -- well, it seems to pull energy from there, sure, but I don't get why this bullet point is worded as if there's some page like Essence (Doom) or Dissonance (Madness Combat, WIP). Completely moot point, especially since it's dubious that would give the Beastheads powers beyond what it actually does.
7. All these are exhibited, although I'm not sure they're combat-applicable since it seems Ducas befell his fate only because he accepted the Faustian bargain.
8. Again, I think this is due to Ducas accepting the Faustian bargain. He was especially desperate, received more messages in his mind by the Beastheads, and accepted the bargain to surrender his soul & become more powerful.
9. I think that's about right, yeah.
10. This one's also fine, I think.
11. That source is just eye-of-the-storm prose. Big dog thing is scary & the weather died down. If anything, Beryl saying that the attack on her mind/soul would have killed a lesser human & would soon kill her too is better evidence, but that might have just been due to her Not-Berserk mark acting up instead of the Beastheads having Death Note aura.
12. The VSB Law Manipulation page is so outdated, including links to pages whose characters don't seem to have it (Minecraft Steve?), that I don't know what to say here. Maybe making Ducas win at cards is something, eh.
13. Weather yes. Vibration -- well, again with the eye-of-the-storm passage. But it was yellin' so loud that Beryl's ears went numb, for whatever that's worth.

Now, for the part about trying to apply resistances to all demons. TL;DR, they definitely aren't prey for the Beastheads as humans are, but I don't know that that makes them immune to the relevant abilities in general.

Spoiler: "Conclusive Resistances for Demons" section.

"Conclusive Resistances for Demons" section.

1. Again with the eye-of-the-storm prose. Where does that even suggest Demons resist Fate Manipulation?
2. There are better sources for this: Page 172 of the translation. "Why didn't the Beastheads try to assimilate Mundus and his demons? Were there being capable of resisting its power? [sic] What was the difference its victims and the others? Those thoughts had plagued him for years. Chen looked back at the document he had just read. 'The demon form is generally immune to the power of the Beastheads.' The creature that had brought the statue to the annihilated temple had not been absorbed as Chen previously believed. Even now, it roamed free."
   And from Page 179: "The Beastheads eats us humans and replenishes you demons. It's like a power transformer for souls!"
   So that's something. Not sure it makes demons immune to the powers (which powers?) in general of if they're immune to the Beastheads alone as a verse-specific thing. Will leave that up to more experienced members to determine via standard procedure. Worth noting that Chen & Beryl were able to make their own energy-draining countermeasures against demons, though.
3. Pretty much same as 1.

I'll be elsewhere again soon, but feel free to respond to my points. I may have missed some things. Don't close the thread if you feel there's more to discuss, but my recommendation overall is to just scrap the aforementioned dubious points & construct a new profile for the Beastheads via a Sandbox page, then discuss any further implications of demon physiology & whatnot afterward. As for who should make that page, well, I don't think I'll have time to start from scratch for a while, but I can more certainly give a knowledgeable page-maker's attempt a look-over and polish it before it's rolled out.

 

[Agnaa]

Hmmm... That's weird. I got this imgur which has been there for a while on the wiki Discord server I'm at:

The only thing I did was ask Mister to change "beyond all" to "transcending/beyond all possible" for clarity sake because it would be controversial (which the previous page on the thread proved me correct) & your wiki clearly needs spoon feeding after PoC fracisco, that's all.

Do you know what the source of the translation in that Imgur link is?

The reason I'm harping on it is because it seems like MTL, which we are not allowed to use for evidence rn. If you're randomly using MTL in some of these without knowing, the whole stack of evidence for this thread gets thrown into question. Sure, for this scan specifically, you have the old translation by Red, but it doesn't bode well for other translations here.

(Also, the thread seeking to allow us to use MTL, seems like it would also result in situations like this taking the lowest possible interpretation of terms with multiple meanings like "ありとあらゆる")

Now, let me ask you this:

When you compare “all possible” with “all kinds of” or “all sorts of” then don’t you see how they are functionally interchangeable in this context? They all convey completeness which is exactly what ありとあらゆる implies?

Conclusion​

What's the entire translation would be according to Vetthai:



What Red's translation said:

As you can see yourself. Red’s version actually drops the nuance of variety. I simply just fulfilled with an alternative.

In addition, what Vietthai said

End point? I have nothing to fear about as my core point will remain the same. The translation on the server by Red in the screenshot and the imgur blog that was there since 2020 was an innocent mistake on my part as I only focused on the last line that focus on low 1-A statement and not the entire translation from above. I just felt like both are the same from below.

They're not "an alternative", there's a very core difference.

If I can "see into all dimensions", that obviously only refers to ones that exist. If I can "see into all sorts of dimensions", that refers to even fewer than all the ones that exist. But "see into all possible dimensions" would end up at Low 1-A, which is why you and others were highlighting that specific word over and over again in posts on page 1.

But I can see you've retracted that now, so whatever. I'm more concerned about the providence of the other translations.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Do you know what the source of the translation in that Imgur link is?

The reason I'm harping on it is because it seems like MTL, which we are not allowed to use for evidence rn. If you're randomly using MTL in some of these without knowing, the whole stack of evidence for this thread gets thrown into question. Sure, for this scan specifically, you have the old translation by Red, but it doesn't bode well for other translations here.

(Also, the thread seeking to allow us to use MTL, seems like it would also result in situations like this taking the lowest possible interpretation of terms with multiple meanings like "ありとあらゆる")

They're not "an alternative", there's a very core difference.

If I can "see into all dimensions", that obviously only refers to ones that exist. If I can "see into all sorts of dimensions", that refers to even fewer than all the ones that exist. But "see into all possible dimensions" would end up at Low 1-A, which is why you and others were highlighting that specific word over and over again in posts on page 1.

But I can see you've retracted that now, so whatever. I'm more concerned about the providence of the other translations.

btw we got another one done by Red in 2022, that one is pretty similar to the one used in the OP (I think, I didn't bother checking that much) I can post it here again if you want

 

[Agnaa]

btw we got another one done by Red in 2022, that one is pretty similar to the one used in the OP (I think, I didn't bother checking that much) I can post it here again if you want

As said, at this point, I'm more concerned about where the translations come from in general. If they're just Imgur links none of you prepared from 5+ years ago that could be MTL, there'd be a lot more to replace than just that.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

As said, at this point, I'm more concerned about where the translations come from in general. If they're just Imgur links none of you prepared from 5+ years ago that could be MTL, there'd be a lot more to replace than just that.

Honestly, most of them are made by Red but I remember we used MTL for some when he couldn't check due to stuff. It would be a matter of checking every single scan and the whole 3 channels of translations we forced him to do

 

[Agnaa]

oof okay

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I'm not joking, we really had Red caged there

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I just got out of the hospital so no much I can help with

Wait, are you okay?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Wait, are you okay?

It's for work, don't worry.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

They're not "an alternative", there's a very core difference.

If I can "see into all dimensions", that obviously only refers to ones that exist. If I can "see into all sorts of dimensions", that refers to even fewer than all the ones that exist. But "see into all possible dimensions" would end up at Low 1-A, which is why you and others were highlighting that specific word over and over again in posts on page 1.

But I can see you've retracted that now, so whatever. I'm more concerned about the providence of the other translations.

Looking at the correct translation from Red now in his old messages as Tony already pointed out—he really did used it interchangeably here:

As you can see, I had this hunch that I did seen someone writing "transcending/beyond all possible dimensions and time" elsewhere. With that being said, I'll ignore the Low 1-A stuff from now on and move towards adding this new imgur file based on Red's translation on the current links. I'm just informing you in prior about the situation soo I don't get into trouble anymore and apologize in case I bothered you about it. Have a great day.

 

[Vietthai96]

But "see into all possible dimensions" would end up at Low 1-A

Actually, depending on the context, "all possible dimensions" could just mean possible dimensions within the verse, like, for example, I could see all possible dimensions within this multiverse, which obviously means all dimensions within the multiverse, not including even dimensions beyond it. On the other hand, all sorts of dimensions could end up at Low 1-A if the contexts can prove it

Of course, all possible dimensions, if they stand alone without contexts and are based on our tiering system, would end up at Low 1-A, semantically speaking

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Actually, depending on the context, "all possible dimensions" could just mean possible dimensions within the verse, like, for example, I could see all possible dimensions within this multiverse, which obviously means all dimensions within the multiverse, not including even dimensions beyond it. On the other hand, all sorts of dimensions could end up at Low 1-A if the contexts can prove it

Of course, all possible dimensions, if they stand alone without contexts and are based on our tiering system, would end up at Low 1-A, semantically speaking

That sort of idea is understandable but considering the sentence separate Jigen (space) from Jikan (time)—it seems pretty unlikely it is talking about separate space-times (dimensions) in the sense you are thinking imo.

Also, we should drop this topic and focus on remaining haxs.

 

[MeiouHades]

Actually, depending on the context, "all possible dimensions" could just mean possible dimensions within the verse, like, for example, I could see all possible dimensions within this multiverse, which obviously means all dimensions within the multiverse, not including even dimensions beyond it. On the other hand, all sorts of dimensions could end up at Low 1-A if the contexts can prove it

Of course, all possible dimensions, if they stand alone without contexts and are based on our tiering system, would end up at Low 1-A, semantically speaking

Me when I say a lot while saying nothing just kiddin' (not really)

 

[SeijiSetto]

That sort of idea is understandable but considering the sentence separate Jigen (space) from Jikan (time)—it seems pretty unlikely it is talking about separate space-times (dimensions) in the sense you are thinking imo.

Also, we should drop this topic and focus on remaining haxs.

jigen isn't (necessarily) space
it can be dimension like mathematical dimension or dimension like, as mentioned before, a different space-time or universe
to me, it reads as essentially being able to see anything anywhere, regardless of when or what universe it's in rather than a Low 1-A thing

 

[SuperSonicTL]

jigen isn't (necessarily) space
it can be dimension like mathematical dimension or dimension like, as mentioned before, a different space-time or universe
to me, it reads as essentially being able to see anything anywhere, regardless of when or what universe it's in rather than a Low 1-A thing

Again, I already acknowledged that it can refer to space-time, but the context makes it unclear in which sense it was intended. However, based on how it’s used, it seems more likely that the term was meant in the mathematical sense rather than a separate universes. But yeah, I suppose it can be treated as a feat for Clairvoyance if nothing else .

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Alright, I think this thread has strayed far from its original focus and most of the discussion has revolved around Low 1-A. Considering that and @GilverTheProtoAngelo's own request to remake this thread with more scans in the future, I’ll be stepping away from this one. Someone can go ahead and close it out.

 

[Huesito88]

Considering that and @GilverTheProtoAngelo's own request to remake this thread with more scans in the future

What about Tony?

 

[SuperSonicTL]

What about Tony?

His lazy ahh can go **** himself

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

yea it was probably not a good idea to include low 1-A with a more general purpose ability CRT

Alright, I think this thread has strayed far from its original focus and most of the discussion has revolved around Low 1-A. Considering that and @GilverTheProtoAngelo's own request to remake this thread with more scans in the future, I’ll be stepping away from this one. Someone can go ahead and close it out.

 

[Theglassman12]

Idk why you're being so fixated on jigen to only mean mathematical dimensions when japanese franchises have used Jigen as a reference to talk about alternate realms or alternate space-times. Context is necessary to know if he's even talking about mathematical dimensions, which DMC doesn't have proof of.

 

[Random-Helper323]

You probably shouldn't have worked this dimensional stuff into a thread about abilities. All it does is complicate the matter a whole lot.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Idk why you're being so fixated on jigen to only mean mathematical dimensions when japanese franchises have used Jigen as a reference to talk about alternate realms or alternate space-times. Context is necessary to know if he's even talking about mathematical dimensions, which DMC doesn't have proof of.

This is sometimes why I believe Japanese shouldn't exist as a language in the first place >:V

Anyways, this is way beyond the point of a proper revision, so just close this while at it Glass.

 

[Campo1uc]

It would not be merely 2-B as the DW being an infinite area means characters like Vergil with his dimension hopping sword have literally infinite choices on where they might wander within the DW. Axiomatically for DMC's case this would be a 2-A Multiverse. No lower. If this is not blatant enough for you consider characters who have infinite abilities listed and would thus have infinite possible choices which feeds into the multiverse's own criteria leading to a 2-A minimum multiverse.

Your scan with "endless choice" doesn't work for me, it comes out as a white picture with an error. I wonder what's in there.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Your scan with "endless choice" doesn't work for me, it comes out as a white picture with an error. I wonder what's in there.

Change "static" to "vignette" in the URL

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

characters who have infinite abilities listed

Who tf is this

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Who tf is this

Devil Mite, the final boss of mainline story PoC.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

This is sometimes why I believe Japanese shouldn't exist as a language in the first place >:V

That's your reading skill issue, not something to whine about a language over. I get that this is a "joke" and has a funny little face at the end, but don't be surprised if anyone "misreads" that remark to imply something very nasty about you. You should take more care with how to assess & say things on the internet before your carelessness really trips you up instead of just putting egg on your face in a niche nerd forum. And next time go through the proper channels for translation checks instead of winging it, telephone-gaming the material, and making silly high-end interpretations without checking for precedent. That can take more time, but it's better than looking silly otherwise.

It would not be merely 2-B as the DW being an infinite area means characters like Vergil with his dimension hopping sword have literally infinite choices on where they might wander within the DW. Axiomatically for DMC's case this would be a 2-A Multiverse. No lower. If this is not blatant enough for you consider characters who have infinite abilities listed and would thus have infinite possible choices which feeds into the multiverse's own criteria leading to a 2-A minimum multiverse.

If I recall correctly, single universes that cap at 4-D (Tier 2) and have infinite size are usually regarded by VBW as still Low 2-C. Could be a contestable rule, though there are threads going into detail to justify it; you can find & read many of these by using the forum's search engine to look for "low 2-c infinite" discussions in the Q&A board by thread title. In any case, again, take more care to note precedent on these things. For example, while I'm not familiar with that DMC: Peak of Combat mobile game, that "infinite abilities"/"endless arsenal" quote seems a clear case of hyperbole being spun into a no-limits fallacy. And I shouldn't have to explain "infinite abilities" or "infinite skill" wouldn't entail 2-A even if those claims weren't hyperbole.

I will recap this thread in an upcoming message.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

To recap, most of the OP is bunk, particularly the T1 cosmic awareness. After re-reading the entire book in question, I went into individual points on the Beastheads' abilities here. TL;DR being some abilities listed/posited are ok, others are not, others are ok but highly situational. It'd be best to have a good Beastheads page written up in a sandbox & approved by knowledgeable members with no tolerance for fluff (such as myself and Glassman12) before determining what abilities of theirs are resisted by demons in general.

Now, that blog linked at the end of the OP arguing for a cosmology of infinite universes (if branching-choice MWI multiverses are 2-A by VBW standards) has some evidence worth considering in the very first link -- assuming that's an accurate translation, which we can't say yet until the material is subjected to VBW standard procedure for translation. Also, ignore the goofier claims SuperSanicTL makes in his blog such as "Chen's 'infinite' sword knowledge = infinite multiverse." The relevant stuff is in that first link from the DMC Volume 2 novel; everything else collaborates at best. Whether anyone scales to it AP-wise or even if Yamato users can cross into alternate timelines (as opposed to just their own timeline's Human & Demon Worlds) is another matter to be determined after we're sure the scan & its translation are accurate.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I'm not gonna bother debunking some comments here, Gilver will remake the thread after all.

Why is this still open?

 

[SuperSonicTL]

That's your reading skill issue, not something to whine about a language over. I get that this is a "joke" and has a funny little face at the end, but don't be surprised if anyone "misreads" that remark to imply something very nasty about you. You should take more care with how to assess & say things on the internet before your carelessness really trips you up instead of just putting egg on your face in a niche nerd forum. And next time go through the proper channels for translation checks instead of winging it, telephone-gaming the material, and making silly high-end interpretations without checking for precedent. That can take more time, but it's better than looking silly otherwise.

To recap, most of the OP is bunk, particularly the T1 cosmic awareness. After re-reading the entire book in question, I went into individual points on the Beastheads' abilities here. TL;DR being some abilities listed/posited are ok, others are not, others are ok but highly situational. It'd be best to have a good Beastheads page written up in a sandbox & approved by knowledgeable members with no tolerance for fluff (such as myself and Glassman12) before determining what abilities of theirs are resisted by demons in general.

Now, that blog linked at the end of the OP arguing for a cosmology of infinite universes (if branching-choice MWI multiverses are 2-A by VBW standards) has some evidence worth considering in the very first link -- assuming that's an accurate translation, which we can't say yet until the material is subjected to VBW standard procedure for translation. Also, ignore the goofier claims SuperSanicTL makes in his blog such as "Chen's 'infinite' sword knowledge = infinite multiverse." The relevant stuff is in that first link from the DMC Volume 2 novel; everything else collaborates at best. Whether anyone scales to it AP-wise or even if Yamato users can cross into alternate timelines (as opposed to just their own timeline's Human & Demon Worlds) is another matter to be determined after we're sure the scan & its translation are accurate.

I think you might be misreading the tone here... It was just a lighthearted joke between me and him, not a serious claim. No need to get heated about it. Let’s close it and move on anyways.

 

[Theglassman12]

I’ll close the thread then