Devil May Cry Discussion Thread

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Regeneration is a power, if you agree he nulled the powers of a demon king, that includes regen too and dont try to argue it wouldnt, negation of regen (or anything for the matter) is just power null limited to just a specific thing

Power null includes nullifying regeneration indirectly in this case yes (You nullify a character's power source, and all abilities he had with that power are therefore removed), but that doesn't mean you can nullify regeneration directly; it's completely different.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Yes, it is, because it makes sense with what we know about the behavior of demons (who are treacherous ones, which was absolutely the case with Sid).
Sid knew that Dante would not let him live and he was completely enraged; if he still had Abigail's powers, he would have at least used one of them, because as a demon he would have done everything in his power to do as much harm as possible before dying.

That still isn't proof he lost the powers, especially when we consider he took some time to turn into Abigail's form.

That would be power nullification, yes, not regen nullification.

Kind of an upgrade disguised as a downgrade there, don't you think? Full power null kicks the crap both into and out of regeneration null, especially since it literally includes it in this case.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

That still isn't proof he lost the powers

You should therefore explain why, because it directly contradicts established lore.

especially when we consider he took some time to turn into Abigail's form.

He doesn't need to transform into his full form to use Abigail's powers, so it makes no sense that he didn't use them if he still had them.

Kind of an upgrade disguised as a downgrade there, don't you think?

Yes, so what? My goal isn't to downgrade Dante to make it look like a fraud or a fodder, but just to remove wanks.

 

[Random-Helper323]

You should therefore explain why, because it directly contradicts established lore.

He doesn't need to transform into his full form to use Abigail's powers, so it makes no sense that he didn't use them if he still had them.

... You do realise your second paragraph answers your first, right? Your whole argument that he lost the powers is based on him not transforming.

Also, your first paragraph is you trying to reverse the burden of proof. You're demanding we prove a negative, that Abigail hasn't lost the powers, and if we can't that therefore means he has lost them. That's a textbook burden of proof fallacy.

Yes, so what? My goal isn't to downgrade Dante to make it look like a fraud or a fodder

You do realise that DB and G1's made up stamina interpretation literally reimagines the regeneration to be almost as worthless as having no regeneration at all, right? That's literally their purpose behind having that headcanon in the first place.

but just to remove wanks.

How exactly is swapping regeneration null for power null "removing wank" when it's an upgrade?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Also, even if Dante's regeneration neg low high is valid via killing Sid-Abigail, it doesn't change that there can still be a downgrade of regeneration and regeneration negation btw.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Also, even if Dante's regeneration neg low high is valid via killing Sid-Abigail, it doesn't change that there can still be a downgrade of regeneration and regeneration negation btw.

Not when it also works against other characters on his level, and when lesser demons have better but less flashy regeneration feats than Abigail.

And not when power null, the very thing you've proposed, might even bypass that concern.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

... You do realise your second paragraph answers your first, right? Your whole argument that he lost the powers is based on him not transforming.

No, I said it's because he hasn't shown any signs of still having Abigail's powers, neither his transformation nor his other powers in general. The scene makes it clear that this is the case; there is no need for an explicit statement.

You do realise that DB and G1's made up stamina interpretation literally reimagines the regeneration to be almost as worthless as having no regeneration at all, right? That's literally their purpose behind having that headcanon in the first place.

Do you realize that I'm neither DB nor G1 and that I only agree with some of their points? Just because I agree with them on the issue of regeneration and stamina doesn't mean I completely agree with them.

How exactly is swapping regeneration null for power null "removing wank" when it's an upgrade?

Because these different abilities can make a big difference in a fight? Just because you have power nullfication doesn't mean you'll necessarily be able to negate a character's regeneration, whereas if you have regeneration negation you'll almost certainly be able to do it (depending on the opponent's regeneration level and resistance of course) even if you don't have power nullification.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Not when it also works against other characters on his level, and when lesser demons have better but less flashy regeneration feats than Abigail.

I plan to make a CRT to remove the Low Godly regeneration from Low Tier and High Tier Demons and the Mid Godly regeneration from Demon Kings (I already explained and discussed this with Tony above).

 

[Random-Helper323]

No, I said it's because he hasn't shown any signs of still having Abigail's powers, neither his transformation nor his other powers in general. The scene makes it clear that this is the case; there is no need for an explicit statement.

The burden of proof would be on you to show he had lost the powers he had a few seconds ago, not on us to show he hadn't.

Do you realize that I'm neither DB nor G1 and that I only agree with some of their points? Just because I agree with them on the issue of regeneration and stamina doesn't mean I completely agree with them.

You appear to agree with them on the regeneration basically being garbage hardly better than having no regeneration at all, so...

The notion of stamina being required to heal isn't shown anywhere and is contradicted by characters with no stamina regenerating from erasure.

The notion of demonic energy fuelling the regeneration also doesn't mesh either with the notion you're putting forth that most demons lack regeneration, or the obvious fact that humans with demonic energy lack regeneration. This indicates it's physiological rather than fuelled by energy alone.

Because these different abilities can make a big difference in a fight? Just because you have power nullfication doesn't mean you'll necessarily be able to negate a character's regeneration, whereas if you have regeneration negation you'll almost certainly be able to do it (depending on the opponent's regeneration level and resistance of course) even if you don't have power nullification.

Except if he had nulled Abigail's power that'd also mean nulling his regeneration. It'd literally have to be both.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I plan to make a CRT to remove the Low Godly regeneration from Low Tier and High Tier Demons and the Mid Godly regeneration from Demon Kings (I already explained and discussed this with Tony above).

I know you do. The feats are still there though. It also wouldn't negate the ability to harm those on his level.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Hakim, allow me to ask you a question. Between the following two entities:

1. Vergil at the end of DMC3, right after he loses against Dante but before he gets slashed and drops his amulet.

and

2. Dante right before he fights Abigail on the roof.

Which of these has more stamina and energy at the time?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

The burden of proof would be on you to show he had lost the powers he had a few seconds ago, not on us to show he hadn't.

Immediately after the explosion, he lost his transformation and showed no signs of High Tier/Demon King powers, despite being in Bloodlust and determined to kill Dante because he knew he was going to die. It's self-explanatory.

You appear to agree with them on the regeneration basically being garbage hardly better than having no regeneration at all, so...

The notion of stamina being required to heal isn't shown anywhere and is contradicted by characters with no stamina regenerating from erasure.

The notion of demonic energy fuelling the regeneration also doesn't mesh either with the notion you're putting forth that most demons lack regeneration, or the obvious fact that humans with demonic energy lack regeneration. This indicates it's physiological rather than fuelled by energy alone.

We'll discuss it with the staff once I've done the CRT.

Except if he had nulled Abigail's power that'd also mean nulling his regeneration. It'd literally have to be both.

I know, yes, but that doesn't change what I said.

If Dante has power nullification and in a versus thread he faces a character who has regeneration through magic, Dante can nullify it and thus remove his regeneration via domino effect.

However, if he faces a character whose regeneration isn't achieved through magic, Dante's power nullification will be useless against it. Whereas if he still has his regeneration negation, as is currently accepted, regardless of whether his opponent's regeneration is linked to magic or not, Dante will still be able to nullify it.

Hakim, allow me to ask you a question. Between the following two entities:

1. Vergil at the end of DMC3, right after he loses against Dante but before he gets slashed and drops his amulet.

and

2. Dante right before he fights Abigail on the roof.

Which of these has more stamina and energy at the time?

Dante

 

[Random-Helper323]

Immediately after the explosion, he lost his transformation and showed no signs of High Tier/Demon King powers, despite being in Bloodlust and determined to kill Dante because he knew he was going to die. It's self-explanatory.

It still doesn't prove it. When someone had a power a few seconds ago, we need more evidence than them not using it to transform in order to assume they don't have it now.

I know, yes, but that doesn't change what I said.

If Dante has power nullification and in a versus thread he faces a character who has regeneration through magic, Dante can nullify it and thus remove his regeneration via domino effect.

However, if he faces a character whose regeneration isn't achieved through magic, Dante's power nullification will be useless against it. Whereas if he still has his regeneration negation, as is currently accepted, regardless of whether his opponent's regeneration is linked to magic or not, Dante will still be able to nullify it.

Except that the power null that does clearly exist in DMC works by removing concepts from people. Sparda could do it, so it's no stretch for Dante to have the same power.

Also, demonic regeneration being solely magic based is another headcanon. Normally we'd have to expect their freaky physiologies had at least something to do with it.

Dante

In those scenes, Vergil regenerates instantly from severe wounds while Dante visibly isn't healing at all, and is still wounded minutes later, from lesser wounds compared to Vergil's no less. Why is this happening, if Dante is the one with more stamina by far and stamina supposedly decides whether regeneration works or not?

 

[Tanin_iver]

Atp, so many of you have jumped in on @Ser_Hakim_Dayne , that I can't even recall what was the last comment I had with him. And all I can see is Hakim cooking even more wank for DMC.
Dude didn't just let it be regen null, nah he went ahead and cooked power null and even ducking empowerment negation in one of the comments. I am pretty sure he cooked some more wank as well, but have to read all the comments.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

It still doesn't prove it.

This proves it, especially thanks to this:

Except that the power null that does clearly exist in DMC works by removing concepts from people. Sparda could do it, so it's no stretch for Dante to have the same power.

So? I don't see your point.

Also, demonic regeneration being solely magic based is another headcanon.

A demon's basic powers come from their demonic energy. When Dante transforms into DT, his physical abilities and regeneration increase. When Agnus summoned and killed demons to absorb their demonic energy, he was able to heal himself and hoped to become more powerful than Dante because he was also absorbing Dante's demonic energy.

In those scenes, Vergil regenerates instantly from severe wounds while Dante visibly isn't healing at all, and is still wounded minutes later, from lesser wounds compared to Vergil's no less. Why is this happening, if Dante is the one with more stamina by far and stamina supposedly decides whether regeneration works or not?

Vergil did not regenerate instantly against Dante, that is literally why he lost and why he even lost against a severely weakened Mundus later.

This is also literally why Dante lost to Vergil the first time, and why both Dante and Vergil were defeated by Arkham the second time, and why Dante couldn't even hold his own against Vergil in DMC5 during their first encounter.

 

[Random-Helper323]

A demon's basic powers come from their demonic energy. When Dante transforms into DT, his physical abilities and regeneration increase. When Agnus summoned and killed demons to absorb their demonic energy, he was able to heal himself and hoped to become more powerful than Dante because he was also absorbing Dante's demonic energy.

And the demons also have freaky physiologies that range from demons that throw their eyes at you to demons that don't even exist. There's clearly more to it than just energy.

Vergil did not regenerate instantly against Dante, that is literally why he lost

... Why did DMC3 Vergil stay whole after being cut in half, healing a bisection right through his torso in under a second, while anime Dante can't even heal flesh wounds in several minutes, when Dante has far more stamina?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

And the demons also have freaky physiologies that range from demons that throw their eyes at you to demons that don't even exist. There's clearly more to it than just energy.

That doesn't change the fact that they have energy, and that's what allows them to regenerate. Also, perhaps not all demons have accelerated regeneration.

... Why did DMC3 Vergil stay whole after being cut in half, healing a bisection right through his torso in under a second

Because Dante's goal wasn't to cut his own brother completely in two?

while anime Dante can't even heal flesh wounds in several minutes, when Dante has far more stamina?

Because it's just a minor inconsistency? Besides, it doesn't even affect his physical abilities because he has no problem fighting and isn't even weakened, so yes, it's just nitpicking.

 

[Random-Helper323]

That doesn't change the fact that they have energy, and that's what allows them to regenerate. Also, perhaps not all demons have accelerated regeneration.

You need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the energy is the only source of healing. That's the problem with this headcanon; it literally does the reverse of what we typically do with regeneration, in assuming it comes from stamina and energy rather than from physiology, which is the source of regeneration almost all of the time.

Because Dante's goal wasn't to cut his own brother completely in two?

... Huh? So he healed quickly and didn't get cut in half when Dante slashed straight through his chest in a blow that did basically cut him in half, because Dante didn't intend to cut him in half when he cut him in half?

Because it's just a minor inconsistency?

Or maybe it clashes with the headcanon about stamina and regeneration so you have to dismiss it to keep your existing hypothesis.

Besides, it doesn't even affect his physical abilities because he has no problem fighting and isn't even weakened,

Thank you for making my point for me. So, let's go through this. If stamina dictates regeneration, and Dante has plenty of stamina here, why is his healing not working? What does this scene have in common with scenes where characters get injured during fights and become exhausted? What makes it different from scenes where wounds mean nothing from attackers like Hell Prides? It can't be stamina, by your own admission.

The answer is the fact that Abigail was stronger than base Dante when those wounds were inflicted. It can't be stamina, since he still has plenty as you yourself just said. So if it can't be stamina, this indicates that healing has issues against stronger demons even regardless of stamina.

Weaker demon + lots of stamina = healing works (example: Hell Prides vs DMC3 Dante)

Stronger or comparable demons + reduced stamina = character goes down, wound status unknown (example: Dante vs Vergil)

With this above setup we're left to figure out whether it's the lowered stamina or the respective power levels that leads to wounds mattering more. This scene with Abigail gives us the deciding scene;

Stronger or comparable demon + lots of stamina = regeneration doesn't work (example: Dante vs Abigail)

This collectively tells us it's the power levels that make the difference, not the stamina.

so yes, it's just nitpicking.

The entire discussion is about demons' regeneration not working as well at times, usually based on examples like characters dropping against attackers with no actual sign their regeneration is weakening, and when I point to a very clear case of Dante not regenerating at all, a scene that should be display piece number one in such a discussion given it's the only 100% verifiable example of regeneration actually getting weakened, you're dismissing it as nitpicking because it doesn't suit this headcanon.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Atp, so many of you have jumped in on @Ser_Hakim_Dayne ,

Technically it was a 1v1 for a while, I got bored and Hakim points are ass (no offense brother) so no need to keep going in circles.

Also I disagree with power null and empowerment negation

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

You need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the energy is the only source of healing. That's the problem with this headcanon; it literally does the reverse of what we typically do with regeneration, in assuming it comes from stamina and energy rather than from physiology, which is the source of regeneration almost all of the time.

Are you kidding? We literally have a dedicated page explaining how demonic energy works and that demons can use their powers and increase or decrease their stats with it, and that it's even their life force. I've already given you two examples of cases where demonic energy increases regeneration and allows healing. It's up to you to prove that there's another unknown source of power for demons besides demonic energy.

... Huh? So he healed quickly and didn't get cut in half when Dante slashed straight through his chest in a blow that did basically cut him in half, because Dante didn't intend to cut him in half when he cut him in half?

As I already explained to Tanin, and as I explained to you above, Vergil didn't fully regenerate from that attack (either due to a regeneration negation or due to a regeneration limit caused by stamina, literally the point of our debate); that's literally why he lost against Dante and Mundus. Vergil wasn't split in two because that obviously wasn't Dante's intention—to do what Sukuna did to Gojo, lol.

I don't see what's so complicated about that.

Or maybe it clashes with the headcanon about stamina and regeneration so you have to dismiss it to keep your existing hypothesis.

Do you realize that this case completely contradicts how Dante's regeneration works, regeneration negation, and stamina-related regeneration? Dante is stronger than Abigail, so there was no reason for him to have been affected by regeneration negation, and he wasn't tired, so there was also no reason for his regeneration not to have worked.

It's just a minor inconsistency that doesn't change the debate and proves nothing. Dante wasn't even affected.

Thank you for making my point for me. So, let's go through this. If stamina dictates regeneration, and Dante has plenty of stamina here, why is his healing not working? What does this scene have in common with scenes where characters get injured during fights and become exhausted? What makes it different from scenes where wounds mean nothing from attackers like Hell Prides? It can't be stamina, by your own admission.

There was no visible regeneration because it's just an inconsistency, it proves nothing.

The answer is the fact that Abigail was stronger than base Dante when those wounds were inflicted. It can't be stamina, since he still has plenty as you yourself just said. So if it can't be stamina, this indicates that healing has issues against stronger demons even regardless of stamina.

Abigail wasn't stronger than Base Dante, otherwise the latter would not have been able to fight him and would have been defeated before transforming.

Furthermore, by taking into account this argument and this inconsistency of Dante not regenerating in a few seconds from Abigail's attack (which is stronger than Base Dante according to you), you are contradicting yourself:

During his first fight against Vergil in DMC3, Dante lost because he was impaled and unable to regenerate, due to regeneration negation as it is currently accepted, because at that point Vergil was stronger (as was already quite clear a year earlier in the manga). The same applies to the other two fights between Dante and Vergil. But the problem is that Dante wasn't defeated at all when Abigail impaled him during their second round; Dante continued to fight as if nothing had happened, which completely contradicts everything we saw in the fights between Dante and Vergil in DMC3 and DMC5.

So yeah, using this minor inconsistency in the anime to contradict me doesn't work and just backfires on your own argument and complicates things even more for nothing.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Also I disagree with power null and empowerment negation

Empowerment negation is more legitimate than regeneration negation.

Demon empowerment grants them more demonic energy when they hit someone with an attack and when they are hit by an attack. More demonic energy means stats amp and healing. When Dante and Vergil cut themselves in DMC3, they didn't become stronger, faster, or regenerate; in fact, it weakened them.

So that means they directly nullify/resist empowerment.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Weaker demon + lots of stamina = healing works (example: Hell Prides vs DMC3 Dante)

Stronger demons + reduced stamina = character goes down, wound status unknown (example: Dante vs Vergil)

With this above setup we're left to figure out whether it's the lowered stamina or the respective power levels that leads to wounds mattering more. This scene with Abigail gives us the deciding scene;

Stronger demon + lots of stamina = regeneration doesn't work (example: Dante vs Abigail)

This collectively tells us it's the power levels that make the difference, not the stamina.

And I'm not even mentioning the fact that Dante couldn't regenerate his wounds several minutes after his fight against Urizen, even though Dante was actually stronger than him (because he defeated him and even finished him in base form), and Dante couldn't even face Vergil because of his injuries. This completely contradicts the idea that only a stronger or equal demon can nullify the regeneration of a weaker or equal demon.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Are you kidding? We literally have a dedicated page explaining how demonic energy works and that demons can use their powers and increase or decrease their stats with it, and that it's even their life force. I've already given you two examples of cases where demonic energy increases regeneration and allows healing. It's up to you to prove that there's another unknown source of power for demons besides demonic energy.

Humans + demon energy = no healing

Demons + not even a body = regeneration

V + demons + shared demonic energy source = demons regenerate but V doesn't

This points to demon physiology being key here, not just energy.

As I already explained to Tanin, and as I explained to you above, Vergil didn't fully regenerate from that attack (either due to a regeneration negation or due to a regeneration limit caused by stamina, literally the point of our debate); that's literally why he lost against Dante and Mundus.

This means he was weakened, not that he wasn't regenerating. The two aren't a 1-1.

Vergil wasn't split in two because that obviously wasn't Dante's intention—to do what Sukuna did to Gojo, lol.

I don't see what's so complicated about that.

You're looking at this scene where he wasn't cut in half when he was cut clean in half with a sword, and you're saying it wasn't because he has regeneration but because Dante didn't want to cut him in half when he slashed clean through him? A big blade slashing through him doesn't open him up a d somehow that's because Dante didn't want to open him up?

Do you realize that this case completely contradicts how Dante's regeneration works, regeneration negation, and stamina-related regeneration? Dante is stronger than Abigail, so there was no reason for him to have been affected by regeneration negation, and he wasn't tired, so there was also no reason for his regeneration not to have worked.

We literally see Abigail overpower him in their first encounter, and he was still stronger in their second, until Dante used DT. Obviously Abigail was superior enough to base Dante to overwhelm him fairly easily, hence the regeneration null. Considering Abigail isn't even tired at all after their first fight, this is consistent.

It's just a minor inconsistency that doesn't change the debate and proves nothing, since Dante wasn't even affected.

This is an assumption on your part. You have a hypothesis, that regeneration is tied to stamina. You point to cases of attacks from stronger or equal characters downing characters who have regeneration, with no proof of wounds staying unhealed either. Such things happen to Wolverine and even Majin Buu, so this wouldn't be enough to give the regeneration a weakness, let alone one that's literally designed to basically make the regeneration worthless.

Even from the evidence we would have several possible outcomes, one being that the characters being downed has nothing to do with regeneration, as is the case with all the other regenerating characters who get knocked out by lesser injuries than they should shrug off. Normally that would be the "inconsistency".

Assuming the regeneration was weakened, we'd still have two possible reasons based on the situation: that the character was tired or that their attacker was stronger or comparable to them. Convenient in theory, given that in the vast majority of cases these two would both be true. The character wouldn't be tired by a weaker character after all.

That's why this instance, where a character is not healing while having plenty of stamina, seems like a tiebreaker to me.

The fact power null is well established in the verse already and other characters can regenerate without even a body or mind, also supports this.

There was no visible regeneration because it's just an inconsistency, it proves nothing.

Convenient to dismiss the evidence that doesn't fit your existing hypothesis. We don't get to dismiss this blatant scene just because we don't like it, especially when what you're weighing it against is actually far less explicit showings of the regeneration not sparing them from being knocked out.

Abigail wasn't stronger than Base Dante, otherwise the latter would not have been able to stand up to him and would have been defeated before transforming.

... So a small power difference automatically equals not enough time to transform? There's a very important difference between stronger and one-shotting, it's literally an issue that underscores the entire versus thread subsection here, and exists in just about every battle series.

Furthermore, by taking into account this argument and this inconsistency of Dante not regenerating in a few seconds from Abigail's attack, you are contradicting yourself:

During his first fight against Vergil in DMC3, Dante lost because he was impaled and unable to regenerate, due to regeneration negation as it is currently accepted, because at that point Vergil was stronger (as was already quite clear a year earlier in the manga). But the problem is that Dante wasn't defeated at all when Abigail impaled him during their second round; Dante continued to fight as if nothing had happened, which completely contradicts everything we saw in the fights between Dante and Vergil in DMC3.

Dante was defeated the first time, he needed Patty to save him, and even afterwards he was weaker than Abigail until he DT'd. In addition, being defeated or not isn't the key. Both situations the attacker was stronger than Dante, both instances they could harm him through his regeneration in some way. The case where he explicitly isn't healing also happens to be the case where he still had plenty of stamina.

You don't get to dismiss that scene just because it clashes with your hypothesis. When one makes a hypothesis then examines the evidence, the hypothesis is supposed to adjust to fit the evidence, not the other way around as you're doing.

 

[Random-Helper323]

And I'm not even mentioning the fact that Dante couldn't regenerate his wounds several minutes after his fight against Urizen, even though Dante was actually stronger than him (because he defeated him and even finished him in base form), and Dante couldn't even face Vergil because of his injuries. This completely contradicts the idea that only a stronger or equal demon can nullify the regeneration of a weaker or equal demon.

Again, being weakened after a fight and having the regeneration not working aren't the same thing.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Humans + demon energy = no healing
Demons + not even a body = regeneration

What are you talking about???

This means he was weakened, not that he wasn't regenerating. The two aren't a 1-1.

He was weakened because of his injury, as confirmed here . From the moment Dante cut him, Vergil was weakened, just as Dante had been before when Vergil cut him. In DMC5, Dante couldn't fight Vergil the first time because he was injured, according to Vergil himself.

We literally see Abigail overpower him in their first encounter, and he was still stronger in their second, until Dante used DT.

If he were stronger than him, Dante would not have been able to stand up to Abigail and would have been defeated beforehand.

This is an assumption on your part. You have a hypothesis, that regeneration is tied to stamina. You point to cases of attacks from stronger or equal characters downing characters who have regeneration, with no proof of wounds staying unhealed either. Such things happen to Wolverine and even Majin Buu, so this wouldn't be enough to give the regeneration a weakness, let alone one that's literally designed to basically make the regeneration worthless.

Even from the evidence we would have several possible outcomes, one being that the characters being downed has nothing to do with regeneration, as is the case with all the other regenerating characters who get knocked out by lesser injuries than they should shrug off. Normally that would be the "inconsistency".

Assuming the regeneration was weakened, we'd still have two outcomes based on the situation: that the character was tired or that their attacker was stronger. Convenient in theory, given that in the vast majority of cases these two would both be true. The character wouldn't be tired by a weaker character after all.

That's why this instance, where a character is not healing while having plenty of stamina, seems like a tiebreaker to me.

When Dante and Vergil can't heal, they are weakened, as evidenced by their fights in DMC3 and DMC5. In the anime, Dante wasn't weakened at all by Abigail's attacks during their second fight because he fought and even mocked him, since even acquired Abigail’s power wasn't enough to defeat him. The holes in his body that don't close are simply an inconsistency with what's already been established, regardless of whether Dante and Vergil have Regeneration Negation or not.

You're saying that he wasn't cut in half when he was cut clean in half with a sword, it wasn't because he has regeneration but because Dante didn't want to cut him in half when he slashed clean through him?

Yes? What's so complicated about that?

Convenient to dismiss the evidence that doesn't fit your existing hypothesis.

That doesn't fit what's already established in the lore

... So a small power difference automatically equals not enough time to transform? Literally, there's a difference between stronger and one-shotting, it's literally an issue that underscores the entire versus thread subsection here.

Dante was laughing as he was being impaled, told him that despite all that he couldn't do anything against him and stood up to him. Literally nothing suggests that Abigail was superior to him.

Dante was defeated the first time, he needed Patty to save him, and even afterwards he was weaker than Abigail until he DT'd. In addition, being defeated or not isn't the key. Both situations the attacker was stronger than Dante, both instances they could harm him through his regeneration in some way. The case where he explicitly isn't healing also happens to be the case where he still had plenty of stamina.

You don't get to dismiss that scene just because it clashes with your hypothesis. When one makes a hypothesis then examined the evidence, the hypothesis is supposed to adjust to fit the evidence, not the other way around as you're doing.

Are you intentionally ignoring DMC 3 and 5 or what?
If Abigail had negative regeneration and was stronger than Dante, the latter would have been completely weakened by all the lethal attacks Abigail inflicted on him. Dante wouldn't have been able to do anything at all.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Again, being weakened after a fight and having the regeneration not working aren't the same thing.

Vergil literally said that Dante was injured and Dante couldn't fight him. Dante was injured by a demon he defeated. You said that regeneration/regeneration negation is tied to power levels, and yet the Urizen/Dante case completely contradicts that.

 

[Random-Helper323]

He was weakened because of his injury, as there was literally no other valid reasons that could have weakened him. From the moment Dante cut him, Vergil was weakened, just as Dante had been before when Vergil cut him. In DMC5, Dante couldn't fight Vergil the first time because he was injured, according to Vergil himself.

Characters are weakened by fights all the time even without severe injuries.

If he were stronger than him, Dante would not have been able to stand up to Abigail and would have been defeated beforehand.

Stronger doesn't automatically equal One-shot. We very clearly see that Abigail is stronger than base Dante.

When Dante and Vergil can't heal, they are weakened, as evidenced by their fights in DMC3 and DMC5.

Assuming they couldn't heal, those attacks were inflicted by stronger or equal characters.

In the anime, Dante wasn't weakened at all by Abigail's attacks during their second fight because he stood his ground and even mocked her, since even transforming wasn't enough to defeat her. The holes in his body that don't close are simply an inconsistency with what's already been established, regardless of whether Dante and Vergil have Regeneration Negation or not.

That doesn't mean he wasn't weaker, and just not being weakened doesn't contradict the regen negation, it means the lasting wound doesn't stop him.

Again, without dismissing the evidence you don't like or assuming stronger automatically equals one-shotting, address the fact that this scene features regeneration not working against a stronger enemy while he has lots of stamina.

Yes? What's so complicated about that?

The fact that he hacked straight through his chest from one side to the other with a huge sword and he didn't get bisected, and somehow that's not because he regenerated but because his attacker wasn't feeling it.

Dante was literally laughing as he was being impaled, told him that despite all that he couldn't do anything against him and stood up to him.

Yes, and yet he still didn't heal.

Literally nothing suggests that Abigail was superior to him.

Except that he overwhelmed him and then crucified him and left him there to die, with Dante evidently being unconscious when Patty found him.

Are you intentionally ignoring DMC 3 and 5 or what?
If Abigail had negative regeneration and was stronger than Dante, he would have been completely weakened by all the lethal attacks Abigail inflicted on him. Dante wouldn't have been able to do anything at all.

Not if he could handle the wounds. We literally see that the regeneration alone isn't what keeps him going when he can walk around with swords still stabbed into him, which would literally force the wounds to still be there. With those gameplay battles we don't know how many hits get landed to wear the characters out.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Vergil literally said that Dante was injured and Dante couldn't fight him. Dante was injured by a demon he defeated. You said that regeneration/regeneration negation is tied to power levels, and yet the Urizen/Dante case completely contradicts that.

They were close to equal, otherwise Dante wouldn't have been so exhausted. We also don't see any wounds.

By the way, if you get it turned into power null, there's an existing power null in the verse, which actually wouldn't be limited to magic as you want it to be. That's why people are calling it an upgrade that thinks it's a downgrade and a clever "owning" of the verse.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Characters are weakened by fights all the time even without severe injuries.

Vergil was weakened because of severe injury:

Also, Dante and Vergil can only be injured by fatigue and physical injuries in the context of combat, not because they are sick or too old. Therefore, the argument "being weakened doesn't necessarily mean being injured" doesn't work here.

Assuming they couldn't heal, those attacks were inflicted by stronger or equal characters.

They couldn't actually heal themselves, so that completely contradicts what you're saying about Abigail and Anime Dante.

The fact that he hacked straight through his chest from one side to the other with a huge sword and he didn't get bisected, and somehow that's not because he regenerated but because his attacker wasn't feeling it.

Its regeneration wasn't working properly, as already proven, so yes.

That doesn't mean he wasn't weaker, and just not being weakened doesn't contradict the regen negation, it means the lasting wound doesn't stop him.

Again, without dismissing the evidence you don't like or assuming stronger automatically equals one-shotting, address the fact that this scene features regeneration not working against a stronger enemy while he has lots of stamina.

Yes, and yet he still didn't heal.

He didn't heal because it's an inconsistency, as already explained. Whether it's regeneration negation tied to power levels or regeneration tied to stamina, it contradicts what we already know from the lore, as seen in DMC3 and 5.

Not if he could handle the wounds. We literally see that the regeneration alone isn't what keeps him going when he can walk around with swords still stabbed into him, which would literally force the wounds to still be there.

When it happens before or at the beginning of a fight, and the swords are still inside him, he'll obviously be able to handle the pain. I don't see how this example proves or contradicts any argument.

Except that he overwhelmed him and then crucified him and left him there to die, with Dante evidently being unconscious when Patty found him.

Because Dante underestimated him and never considered him a threat. Besides, you're contradicting yourself again. Base Dante couldn't nullify Sid's regeneration the first time, but the second time he was able to, even though he hadn't gotten stronger since the first round (which is what you're implying) and even though regeneration negation is linked to power levels???

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

They were close to equal, otherwise Dante wouldn't have been so exhausted. We also don't see any wounds.

Vergil explicitly told Dante to heal his wounds, lol. Dante was literally injured by a demon inferior to him in his base form and couldn't regenerate for several minutes.

 

[Random-Helper323]

When it happens before or at the beginning of a fight, and the swords are still inside him, he'll obviously be able to handle the pain. I don't see how this example proves or contradicts any argument.

It means the lack of the wound healing doesn't down him, meaning that the idea that his wounds not healing should have left him unable to move much is clearly untrue.

Base Dante couldn't nullify Sid's regeneration the first time, but the second time he was able to, even though he hadn't gotten stronger since the first round (which is what you're implying) and even though regeneration negation is linked to power levels???

In DT he was able to, not base. He needed to DT to win, further proving Abigail was stronger than base Dante. And the scene does not conflict with those scenes, it only conflicts with your headcanon. Abigail was stronger than base Dante, hence why the wounds didn't heal. If it was based on his stamina, then the regeneration still would have worked since he had plenty of it. Meanwhile all those other scenes could be either the stamina or the close power levels, and this scene tells us it's the power levels.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

It means the lack of the wound healing doesn't down him.

This is when the bladed weapons were still impaled in his body and he still had a lot of stamina because it was before a fight or even not in a fight (examples: the demons who impaled him with scythes at the beginning of DMC3 and Trish who impaled him with Force Edge at the beginning of DMC1).

As soon as he removes these weapons from his body he regenerates instantly, otherwise he would be weakened as we saw at the end of his fights against Vergil.

In DT he was able to, not base. He needed to DT to win, further proving Abigail was stronger than base Dante.

You completely missed my point. If regeneration negation is linked to power levels and Base Dante is still weaker than Abigail during their second fight as you said, you contradict yourself by also saying that it's a regeneration negation feat for Dante and that Sid still had Abigail's powers at that moment because it was in Base that Dante definitively killed Sid with his gun.

Besides, are you currently arguing for power null to defeat Abigail or just a blanket "regeneration doesn't work" argument, like DB and G1?

That regeneration is linked to stamina like Death Battle (but not that Dante can only fight for 6 minutes lol).

 

[Random-Helper323]

This is when the bladed weapons were still impaled in his body and he still had a lot of stamina because it was before a fight or even not in a fight (examples: the demons who impaled him with scythes at the beginning of DMC3 and Trish who impaled him with Force Edge at the beginning of DMC1).

It still tells us that wounds not closing doesn't instantly down him, hence why he could still fight with wounds against Abigail.

You completely missed my point. If regeneration negation is linked to power levels and Base Dante is still weaker than Abigail during their second fight as you said, you contradict yourself by saying that it's a regeneration negation feat for Dante and that Sid still had Abigail's powers at that moment because it was in Base that Dante definitively killed Sid with his gun.

Unless he weakened him to below his own base. It does appear as if power level at the time is relevant, not just total power level. In that sense the stamina would be relevant in that the stronger one can negate the weaker one's healing, and the more they gain advantage the wider the gap gets.

Besides, it'd be hard to claim he beat Abigail just through superior AP given the context, isn't that why you brought up power null?

That regeneration is linked to stamina like Death Battle

So, basically, the regeneration being almost as useless as no regeneration, despite clear proof this isn't the case, as Vergil and Nero performed their feats with no stamina at all, and generally no proof of regeneration stopping like they said. Regardless of what you say, this would be imposing a weakness on only one verse for an extremely common trope in fiction, a weakness that is specifically designed to destroy the character and turn his healing into worthless garbage. This would take characters who've performed godly regen feats with no stamina and say that they can't heal at all unless they have lots of stamina.

And all this contradicted by a scene you have to construct multiple headcanons to ignore. You need to have a headcanon that Abigail was weaker than base Dante despite clear proof to the contrary, and even then you need to disregard the regeneration's behaviour in this scene entirely so that your theory can stand.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

It still tells us that wounds not closing doesn't instantly down him, hence why he could still fight with wounds against Abigail.

Dante explicitly told Patty not to cuddle him too hard because he was injured and during the fight we saw him staggering after he was impaled by several attacks from Abigail, so it is actually not comparable with the other cases of Dante being impaled that I mentioned because Dante showed no signs of having been injured.

Unless he weakened him to below his own base. It does appear as if power level at the time is relevant, not just total power level. In that sense the stamina would be relevant in that the stronger one can negate the weaker one's energy.

So you're brought up stats reduc?

Besides, it'd be hard to claim he beat Abigail just through superior AP given the context, isn't that why you brought up power null?

I had never brought up power nullification to begin with, but just that Sid had lost Abigail's powers.

So, basically, the regeneration being almost as useless as no regeneration, despite clear proof this isn't the case, as Vergil and Nero performed their feats with no stamina at all

If you're talking about Nelo Angelo's case for Vergil, it's not even a clear regeneration feat, so no, it proves nothing (and it seems it's not even in the pages, so I won't even need to debunk it when I do the CRT on the regeneration downgrade).

For Nero, there's also no proof that he had absolutely no stamina left.

Regardless of what you say, this would be imposing a weakness on only one verse for an extremely common trope in fiction, a weakness that is specifically designed to destroy the character and turn his healing into worthless garbage.

The fact that their regeneration is tied to their stamina doesn't change the fact that they still have good regeneration and stamina.

You're just exaggerating this nerf to make people think Dante and Vergil will be fodders and to make me look like the new "DMC downplayer villain" because the twins are hyped characters in powerscaling (and therefore inconceivable that anything about them wouldn't be god-like P&A wise).

And all this contradicted by a scene you have to construct multiple headcanons to ignore.

It's crazy how you tell me I'm ignoring a scene that contradicts your own regen negation logic and what had already been established in other fights, while you ignore all of Dante and Vergil's fights which clearly show their regeneration malfunctions at the moment where they are tired at the end of a fight and after it (even when the stronger one is injured by the weaker one, as with Dante vs Qlipoth-Urizen).

Also, possibly the first fight between Abigail and Dante lasted a long time, which could explain why Dante's regeneration malfunctioned.

So it doesn't even contradict my arguments, actually.

 

[Tanin_iver]

So you're brought up stats reduc?

I am not gonna respond to the rest as you guys are already duking it out, but yes we should really index stat reduction as a power with each attack because that is blatant asf.
I am neutral about empowerment negation. I think it has arguments to be made.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Dante explicitly told Patty that he was injured and during the fight we saw him staggering a bit after he was impaled by several attacks from Abigail, so it is actually not comparable with the other cases of Dante being impaled that I mentioned because Dante literally had nothing.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Obviously Abigail can injure him, but he also clearly has lots of stamina left.

So you're brought up stats reduc?

It does seem as if the characters' current level is relevant to their powers clashing, and this would include their ability to impact each other's powers.

I had never brought up power nullification to begin with, but just that Sid had lost Abigail's powers.

You literally did, so now you're going back on that? If Sid lost the powers, it'd be power null, if not, regeneration null. Ironically the first one also covers the second.

If you're talking about Nelo Angelo's case for Vergil, it's not even a clear regeneration feat, so no, it proves nothing (and it seems it's not even in the pages, so I won't even need to debunk it when I do the CRT on the regeneration downgrade).

It is still a clear feat, as he was described as having no trace of him remaining.

For Nero, there's also no proof that he had absolutely no stamina left.

He didn't even have a mind or a name.

The fact that their regeneration is tied to their stamina doesn't change the fact that they still have good regeneration and stamina.

You're just exaggerating this nerf to make people think Dante and Vergil will be fodders and to make me look like the new "DMC downplayer villain"

I'm not exaggerating it. This headcanon has always been used to make the regeneration basically useless in a real fight, and it's all based on a trope that's very common with regenerating characters. We even saw how DB used it to make Dante's regeneration effectively inferior to Clive's in the long run. Basically a useless regeneration. This very much would render their regeneration fodder, to an extent that contradicts shown feats of healing.

because the twins are hyped characters in powerscaling (and therefore inconceivable that anything about them wouldn't be god-like P&A wise).

To be honest, you're sounding like the downplayer you claim not to be right here.

It's incredible how you tell me I'm ignoring a scene that contradicts your own regen negation logic

It doesn't. You just make up a headcanon about Abigail not being stronger than base Dante (who he literally overwhelmed and knocked unconscious) to fit your other headcanon.

and what had already been established in other fights, while you ignore all of Dante and Vergil's fights which clearly show their regeneration malfunctions at the moment where they are tired at the end of a fight and after it (even when the stronger one is injured by the weaker one, as with Dante vs Qlipoth-Urizen).

First of all, you're yet to show their regeneration actually verifiably weakening in those fights, especially to any significant degree. Second, Urizen was still comparable to Dante, so the null abilities working on him to an extent isn't out of the question if it aligns with all their other powers. If the ability to null each other's healing is scaled the same as the ability to match each other physically, then Urizen will have that ability, since he exhausted Dante.

And the fact that a Dante who was still strong enough to fight someone superior to him was also not regenerating at all lines up with negation, not the stamina headcanon.

Also, perhaps the first fight between Abigail and Dante lasted a long time, which could explain why Dante's regeneration malfunctioned.

It didn't. Abigail won just as the others got out of the hotel.

And even if it did, you yourself have admitted that Dante had plenty of stamina. He had enough to fight back against someone stronger than himself, as opposed to other fights where he was actually tired.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I am not gonna respond to the rest as you guys are already duking it out, but yes we should really index stat reduction as a power with each attack because that is blatant asf.
I am neutral about empowerment negation. I think it has arguments to be made.

There is no ability called empowerment negation. It's power null.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Hakim, tell me something, if you could. If the Abigail thing turned into power null, which turned out to not be magic only, and thus ended up being an upgrade rather than a downgrade, would you be okay with that? Is this because you have issues with how Abigail goes down or just because you're dead set on a downgrade?

Keep in mind that with just the Dante and Vergil battles either interpretation could hold, so it'd be strange to be dead set on useless regeneration based on that.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

You are comparing two incomparable things.

Obviously Abigail can injure him, but he also clearly has lots of stamina left.

We don't know how long their fight lasted, so no we don't know if he had much stamina left.

You literally did, so now you're going back on that? If Sid lost the powers, it'd be power null, if not, regeneration null. Ironically the first one also covers the second.

There may be other reasons why Sid lost Abigail's powers at that moment; it doesn't necessarily mean it was due to a power nullification.

I'm not exaggerating it. This headcanon has always been used to make the regeneration basically useless in a real fight, and it's all based on a trope that's very common with regenerating characters. We even saw how DB used it to make Dante's regeneration effectively inferior to Clive's in the long run. Basically a useless regeneration. This very much would render their regeneration fodder, to an extent that contradicts shown feats of healing.

It's not useless in a fight, because Dante has plenty of other ways to get rid of an opponent before he run out of stamina.

First of all, you're yet to show their regeneration actually verifiably weakening in those fights, especially to any significant degree.

I've already proven this by showing a scan of BtN that Vergil lost to Mundus due to fatigue and severe injuries from his final fight against Dante. Arkham defeated Vergil and Dante because they were injured from the sword blows they received, as explicitly stated by Arkham himself.

Second, Urizen was still comparable to Dante, so the null abilities working on him to an extent isn't out of the question if it aligns with all their other powers. If the ability to null each other's healing is scaled the same as the ability to match each other physically, then Urizen will have that ability, since he exhausted Dante.

So you're saying Urizen could nullify Dante's regeneration because he was close to him in power, but Dante couldn't do that to Sid-Abigail the very first time, even though Dante was close to him in power??? You're contradicting yourself again.

It didn't. Abigail won just as the others got out of the hotel.

And even if it did, you yourself have admitted that Dante had plenty of stamina. He had enough to fight back against someone stronger than himself, as opposed to other fights where he was actually tired

Almost everything happened off-screen; we don't know how long the fight lasted.

It is still a clear feat, as he was described as having no trace of him remaining.

It just says that he disappeared without a trace, an expression we often use when talking about someone IRL who disappears, and it doesn't mean that this person has been EE.

He didn't even have a mind or a name.

Even if it were true, how does that prove anything?

It doesn't. You just make up a headcanon about Abigail not being stronger than base Dante (who he literally overwhelmed and knocked unconscious) to fit your other headcanon.

Please, stop saying "headcanon" all the time when you fail to clearly prove a regeneration negation feat and contradict yourself by trying.

 

[Random-Helper323]

We don't know how long their fight lasted, so no we don't know if he had much stamina left.

Enough to fight someone stronger than him still. So yes, we do.

There may be other reasons why Sid lost Abigail's powers at that moment; it doesn't necessarily mean it was due to a power nullification.

We do need a lot more evidence he lost Abigail's powers, to be honest. Him not transforming, especially when we saw his transformation takes some time, isn't enough.

So you're saying Urizen could nullify Dante's regeneration because he was close to him in power, but Dante couldn't do that to Sid-Abigail the very first time, even though Dante was close to him in power???

They were further apart. Abigail wasn't at all worn out from beating Dante the first time. Also note, he didn't change to Abigail's form until after.

Even if it were true, how does that prove anything?

How can he have lots of stamina without even a mind? The name even defines his existence and he even lacked that. There literally wasn't even a "him" anymore, so how could he have had stamina?

Please, stop saying "headcanon" all the time when you fail to clearly prove a regeneration negation feat and contradict yourself by trying.

The stamina theory is a headcanon, explicitly.

Even if we ignore all the hax, pretend the verse is a haxless brick except for regeneration, without already displayed feats of power nullification, there's still an issue with imposing this unique weakness, and that is that regenerating characters frequently get worn out by repeated wounds and even struggle to heal from them. This happens all the time to characters with regeneration. Attempting to impose an extremely harsh weakness on just one verse for a trope that is almost as common as regeneration itself is just plain unfair.