Devil May Cry: Downgrade's Awakening (Yes, from Tier 1)

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I am aware that a recent CRT to downgrade the verse didn't pass, however I believe persuasive arguments for why the verse's rating is shaky can be presented.
I will provide different arguments that targets two of the main justifications supporting Tier 1 DMC, which will either downgrade the verse, or increase the credibility of the rating if the arguments are to be defeated.
I will not dispute PoC's canonicity here, and I do not argue against the ray of light in the manga referring to the Human World.
Bold and underline are added to quotes for emphasis.

So let's begin:

1- It is impossible for something finite to split something infinite in half​

One of the pillars of the Tier 1 DMC position is that the Demon World being infinitely larger than the Human World is enough to establish qualitative superiority between dimensions per the site's standards. I will dispute the claim that the Demon World is infinitely larger than the Human World.

I will give a brief summary of the cosmology's backstory to ensure that I have good grasp of the one currently used in the site. Feel free to double check with the explanation blog.

1. Primordial Chaos pre-existed the Demon World and created the names of demons which makes parts of their souls, causing demons to exist even before the Demon World was created, though the demons get formed in the Demon World.
2. A ray of light was birthed from the realm of darkness that became known as the Demon World, and the realm of light became known as the Human World.
3. The existence of both the Human World and the Demon World merged together caused instability, and pandemonium/chaos spilled between their borders.
4. A Black-Horned Demon God (implied to be Pluto, who was prophesized to separate heaven and earth before being betrayed) created a seal that separates the Demon World and the Human World.
5. Mundus killed his Demon King, took power, and decided to invade the Human World to merge it with the Demon World, and the darkness started consuming the light.
6. Sparda sided with humanity and defeated Mundus, and then sealed the Demon World to stabilize the Human World and prevent further invasions.

To this point, I believe that I am in agreement with the supporters of Tier 1 DMC.

However, there is a crucial piece of evidence that needs to be accounted for.
According to more recent lore introduced by PoC, we learn that the light have split the world in half:

Chaos Boundary Stone
The legendary material needed to forge Dante's weapons
Until the first light split the world in half, such stones were nowhere to be found. They are full of the power of the original chaos, but now they are becoming increasingly rare.

This can be easily reconciled with the endless darkness vs ray of light comparison, if it is only referring to the cosmology early on when the Human World was birthed within the Demon World. The statement of darkness engulfing the light is referring to Mundus almost succeeding in merging the Demon World and the Human World, and thus does not represent a fully separate Demon World and Human World.

We now have a new size description of the modern DMC cosmology from PoC that should be acknowledged.
Normally it would be fair to assume that the size difference between the Demon World and the Human World remained the same, but we now know that the light split the world in half.

It goes without saying that a finite construct cannot split an infinite construct in half.
Therefore, the Demon World is not infinitly larger in comparison with the current DMC Human World.

The Demon World has a mirror dimension reflecting the Human World, however its size is not stated, and fiction has mirror dimensions that are much smaller than what they are reflecting. Being stated to reflect the evil in human hearts is flowery statements that doesn't mean anything specific. Being called a window in time and space tells us that it is a portal, but this is not enough to insinuate a full independent space-time continuum.

This means that we should not interpret statements about endless darkness/sea/void to mean infinite, as new context-providing evidence does not support it. This also means that the Human World in current modern DMC cosmology cannot be considered infinitely smaller than the Demon World.

---

2- Souls originate from Primordial Chaos, not the Demon World​

One of the pillars of the Tier 1 DMC position is that is that since all 9D souls originate from the Demon World, we can assume that the Demon World is 9D. I will dispute the claim that souls originate from the Demon World.

The description of souls provided by PoC is as follows:

The Soul
It continues to hide mysteries that humans and demons don't understand, mysteries but every human has such.
A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path.
It not only contains the mind and memory, but also contains all the information of the body and its ancestors since ancient times

However there is explicit evidence that souls do not originate from the Demon World, hence the higher dimension being refereed to is something else:

Demons
Creatures that have existed since before the creation of the human world, spawned by the primordial chaos that preceded reality and formed by the demon world.
All but the weakest demons do not care what they lose, their bodies, their names, their souls or everything, as long as they persist they can regenerate and continue fighting without rest.

This is straight-forward as the statement from PoC differentiating between the Demon World and Primordial Chaos, and stating that the existence of demons originate in the Primordial Chaos before being formed in the Demon World.

If we are to claim that the Primordial Chaos is the same as the Demon World before the separation as it is sometimes postulated, then we need to claim that the Demon World is not part of reality.

It is also stated that the existence of the names of demons forming parts of their souls predate the creation of the Demon World:

The power of a name

From the moment of their birth, names are one of the most sacred things to demons. They represent not only power, but also the concept of their own existence, the basic principles of which predate even the creation of the demon world itself.
It manifests itself as part of the soul that forms them, and their dark hearts.

So it can't get more explicit.

It is true that the souls of demons and some humans (at least the damned/sinners, and those killed by specific demons) are confirmed to end up in the Demon World after their bodies are killed, but this does not mean that the souls originate from the Demon World or that the Demon World are their final destination.
It is not the case that ALL human souls end up in the Demon World; in fact, Devil May Cry 3 states several times that human souls get sent to hell for their sins, and it is redundant for the games to mention that specific demons will drag human souls to hell by killing them if the souls of humans will automatically go there after death.
It is entirely possible that non-sinning souls dissipate into the higher dimensional Primordial Chaos, and that if the souls of demons are permanently destroyed that they return to Primordial Chaos.

The argument claimed to be the 'nail in the coffin' for the Tier 1 position are these two statements from PoC referring to the origin of two demons:

Conundrum
The eye of doom birthed in the abyss
Full of calamity and misery
The cursed arrows are shrouded in hatred
Shattering all beliefs into ashes

Pluto
Born out of the abominable abyss
Under masked cover
He is the source of humanity's downfall
On his throne that makes one's soul tremble
The King of Demons murmurs in an ancient tongue
Summoning the dead to come forth

Sparda and Trish were stated to be born in the Demon World multiple times, so it is not some new discovery, nor is it of much significance on its own.

What needs to be substantiated is the following:

• (1) Being born in the Demon World = Soul being created BY the Demon World​

Instead of:

• (2) Being born in the Demon World= Taking a form IN the Demon World after the soul was created by the Primordial Chaos that is different from the Demon World​

Not only is the evidence for (1) lacking, but there is evidence for (2).

Mundus has been stated to have been waiting for a chance to be 'reborn':

BETRAYED BY THE DARK KNIGHT SPARDA AND SEALED IN HELL, MUNDUS FOR MANY YEARS WAS WAITING FOR A CHANCE TO BE REBORN. IT DIDN'T LET HIM REGAIN ALL HIS STRENGTH, BUT HE MANAGED TO GATHER UNDER THE BANNER OF A HORDE OF DEMONS. AND THE FIRST THING HE DID AFTER THAT WAS REVENGE ON THE TRAITOR.
- Devil May Cry 5: Before The Nightmare

Mundus was sealed and waiting for a chance to regain his true form, but we can characterize him being formed as getting born again.

Furthermore, it is stated that Arkham had his final demonic form born after acquiring Sparda's power:

Arkham

Transformed into a gruesome beast after obtaining Sparda's power. His form was not born of Sparda's inherited power, but rather from the darkness that lies deep in his heart.

Berial, a fire-themed demon, was 'born' in the Fire Hell:

Berial

Demon born and raised in the Fire Hell—place especially harsh even among the Demon World.
Once used to serve the Emperor of the Demon World, but after Demon Emperor was sealed reigned as the conqueror of the Fire Hell.
With body covered with burning flame, he's unbearable to even touch.

He was not born in some central core of Primordial Chaos located in the Demon World. Demons can simply be 'born' in various places in the Demon World, and their form is shaped by their environment. But this does not imply that there souls originates there; per PoC their existence originate in the Primodial Chaos before taking form in the Demon World.

An other demon, Bolverk, was stated to have been reborn in the Demon World after being destroyed:

Bolverk

A demon warrior who was defeated by Sparda.
He was once the king of a remote region's gods, but it's said that Bolverk was reborn as an evil god after being destroyed in a great war.

If the origination of existence that composes the soul pre-exists the Demon World, as stated by PoC, then there is no difference between being born and reborn in the Demon World, as it is simply forming a body.

The Demon World has been called a crucible of chaos, but that doesn't refer to the primordial/original chaos, otherwise the previously mentioned boundary stones wouldn't be rare, and collecting the power of original chaos wouldn't requires the existence of light:

Chaos Boundary Stone

The legendary material needed to forge Dante's weapons
Until the first light split the world in half, such stones were nowhere to be found. They are full of the power of the original chaos, but now they are becoming increasingly rare.

In conclusion, the claim that souls originate from the Demon World is explicitly contradicted by lore statements. It is not substantiated that the Primordial Chaos, where souls originate from, is equivalent to the Demon World before separation, or that the Demon World contains the Primordial Chaos where souls originate from; they are explicitly separate entities, and the Primordial Chaos spawned the Demon World into reality and pre-exists it.

---

I know that the revision can be controversial, but please let's be chill in the discussion and respect each other.
(I will definitely celebrate a downgrade though)

---

EDIT: Vote tally added. Staff input in bold | Total.

Agree (1|10): @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara, @Setsuna_tenma, @Bobsican, @Fixxed (Argument 1), @Artorimachi_Meteoraft, @Hellscream, @DarkDragonMedeus, @YoPercy, @MrHazama, @LuffyRuffy46307

Neutral (0|0):

Disagree (3|12): @Tony_di_bugalu, @GilverTheProtoAngelo, @Robo, @Deadguy, @Rakih_Elyan, @RedReaper, @KLOL506, @Planck69, @Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @Oliver_de_jesus, @Abu2411, @KLOL506

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

To begin with, let's all agree to not make a clown fiesta out of this one, thus avoiding a move to the staff forum.

Anyways, this does make sense to me, and I wanna ask if it's alright to bring up (and debunk) two scans used to support the demon world's qualitative superiority. I feel they will be mentioned eventually, though idk if it would be derailing right now.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

 

[Bobsican]

I also agree with the OP.

 

[Robo432343]

I will at least wait for some counter arguments to agree or not
smh

 

[Fixxed]

Following

I think the argument of split demon world in half is make sense. If demon world is strictly larger than human world then the human world it self cannot give a effect to it, especially give significant effect like split the entire demon world in half, it mean there are no qualitative superiority between them

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Agree

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

To begin with, let's all agree to not make a clown fiesta out of this one, thus avoiding a move to the staff forum.

Anyways, this does make sense to me, and I wanna ask if it's alright to bring up (and debunk) two scans used to support the demon world's qualitative superiority. I feel they will be mentioned eventually, though idk if it would be derailing right now.

It is up to your judgement, but if the arguments aren't directly about the size of the Demon World in comparison with the Human World, or about souls being created by the Demon World, it is probably best to leave them for later.

 

[Hellscream]

Damn, seems like you beat me to it
Agreed

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Lmao this has to be the most stupid attempt to a downgrade since, Idk g1?

I'll come back to this when I'm done with real life shit

 

[KLOL506]

@Theglassman12 @GilverTheProtoAngelo @Mister6ame6 @Sevil Natas @Lightning_XXI @Oliver_de_jesus @Cyberblader90 @RedReaper @DarkGrath @Abstractions @Dienomite22 @Galens @Thehunter077 @EFÍTÉ @Palito266 @Deadguy ENJOY.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Pffft, lol

 

[KLOL506]

Pffft, lol

ONCE AGAIN I CALL OUT THE ENTIRE DMC SQUAD.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Which enlightenment sage decided to make this normal instead of staff thread?

I don't have patience for distractions this weekend nor next, so don't cry if I am condescending to them.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Lmao this has to be the most stupid attempt to a downgrade since, Idk g1?

I'll come back to this when I'm done with real life shit

I am glad to have surpassed G1 positively.
Life Goal Achievement Unlocked!

Hope you come up in an even better mood.

---

Can't let the squad get too complacent. This is barely a warm up.
Think of me as Mundus from the DMC reboot leading the masses astray (but deal with me less violently).

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The OP makes sense to me tbh.

 

[Robo432343]

I feel like this has been talked about in these threads already

https://vsbattles.com/threads/chaos-made-me-higher-dimensional-meme-dmc-edition.131563/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/damn-you-poc-devil-may-cry-revisions.127270/#post-4286842

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dmc-poc-continued.127739/page-5#post-4492395

 

[KLOL506]

Which enlightenment sage decided to make this normal instead of staff thread?

I don't have patience for distractions this weekend nor next, so don't cry if I am condescending to them.

Yeah, this should be staff-only. Thread got derailed last time for the same exact reason.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I am fine with switching to a staff thread at the first sign of derailment, but I personally don't think it is warranted at the moment. Especially since we are still waiting for counterarguments.

 

[YoPercy]

Agree with removing 9D from DMC. Pleaseeeeee put a vote section to see those how agree, disagree and are neutral and highlight staff opinions in bold. It makes it ten thousand times easier.

 

[MrHazama]

Agree FRA

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

A vote tally has been added.

 

[Robo432343]

i think gilver also disagrees

 

[Hellscream]

you can't just disagree without any proper reasoning..

 

[SheevShezarrine]

These reasons are understandable, but same as how God tiers like Dante and Pluto can have (if downgrade goes through) Tier 2 power despite being in 3 dimensional forms, and also have 9D souls, can the same not be said of a world containing billions of 9D souls? The Human World is definitely finite in size, but does that mean that its ability to warp and change the Demon World would be similarly finite and thus nill? The Human World also seems to basically passively affect it with hax on account of being its antithesis, which could sidestep the whole dimensions thing.

 

[KLOL506]

you can't just disagree without any proper reasoning..

He'll explain why when he gets the time, so give him the time.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

However, there is a crucial piece of evidence that needs to be accounted for.
According to more recent lore introduced by PoC, we learn that the light have split the world in half:

This can be easily reconciled with the endless darkness vs ray of light comparison, if it is only referring to the cosmology early on when the Human World was birthed within the Demon World. The statement of darkness engulfing the light is referring to Mundus almost succeeding in merging the Demon World and the Human World, and thus does not represent a fully separate Demon World and Human World.

We now have a new size description of the modern DMC cosmology from PoC that should be acknowledged.
Normally it would be fair to assume that the size difference between the Demon World and the Human World remained the same, but we now know that the light split the world in half.

This is the thing, the scan is absolutely wrong.

First we know that the light did no separate the world, in fact it was a demon god who emerged from the darkness.

Secondly is that the demon world was never split in half, it was split in two. The manga gives us the whole story about how the light is only a small part of it to the point it was devoured by darkness something that was already established in the first novel as Gilver using a nexus the size of a bar was overwriting the human world's existence into a new demon world. Something that would be practically impossible if the human world was of the same size of the demon world.

For more proof of this the mirror world (a copy of the human world) is basically the front door to the demon world.

Also more proof that the human world is insignificant is that Mundus dimension, which is an infinitely expanding universe beyond human understanding, is only a battleground for Mundus and Dante inside the demon world.

Basically to use this piece of information to "debunk" all the previous lore and cosmology info dumps we have is like using DMC5 statement about SDT Dante being comparable to sparda, in other words its stupid and practically ignores everything.

It goes without saying that a finite construct cannot split an infinite construct in half.
Therefore, the Demon World is not infinitly larger in comparison with the current DMC Human World.

And like I explained above the human world did not do shit except bring instability to the world, it brought Chaos, something that Pluto did not like and separated the world. (Mind you this shit was affecting the human world as the earth was torn apart many times over.) While the demon world, who is the crucible/container of chaos, was full of chaos.

The Demon World has a mirror dimension reflecting the Human World, however its size is not stated, and fiction has mirror dimensions that are much smaller than what they are reflecting. Being stated to reflect the evil in human hearts is flowery statements that doesn't mean anything specific. Being called a window in time and space tells us that it is a portal, but this is not enough to insinuate a full independent space-time continuum.

It is in fact a mirror of the human world, hence why it is a "window in time and space" and serves as the entrance to the demon world.

This means that we should not interpret statements about endless darkness/sea/void to mean infinite, as new context-providing evidence does not support it. This also means that the Human World in current modern DMC cosmology cannot be considered infinitely smaller than the Demon World.

Like I said, a single piece of one media contradicting several others is useless, just like Sparda being comparable to Dante in 5 yet Dante killing a stronger sparda clone or stronger enemies in earlier entries.

Also this same World that is repeatedly given infinite statements with two extra that are admittedly localizations. Several of which come from PoC.

Basically PoC itself contradicts that scan.

2- Souls originate from Primordial Chaos, not the Demon World​

One of the pillars of the Tier 1 DMC position is that is that since all 9D souls originate from the Demon World, we can assume that the Demon World is 9D. I will dispute the claim that souls originate from the Demon World.

The description of souls provided by PoC is as follows:

However there is explicit evidence that souls do not originate from the Demon World, hence the higher dimension being refereed to is something else:

This is straight-forward as the statement from PoC differentiating between the Demon World and Primordial Chaos, and stating that the existence of demons originate in the Primordial Chaos before being formed in the Demon World.

If we are to claim that the Primordial Chaos is the same as the Demon World before the separation as it is sometimes postulated, then we need to claim that the Demon World is not part of reality.

It is also stated that the existence of the names of demons forming parts of their souls predate the creation of the Demon World:

Good, very good and it would work perfectly if only you ignored how the demon world is specifically a container/crucible of chaos.

This is why souls come and go to the demon world:

-V saying return to the underworld to demons he's about to kill[3]

-Human souls going to hell (the demon world) after death[4]

-Demons managing the souls of the dead in the demon world[5]

-even PoC makes a reference to this in one of its Demon Book statements[1]

Here is the thing, yes Chaos predates the demon world but when the darkness came into existence it became the container of chaos. Chaos is either inside or melted together with the demon world (depending if you use container or crucible but IIRC container is the best translation) but the point is the same, the demon world now has chaos within it.

So it can't get more explicit.

It is true that the souls of demons and some humans (at least the damned/sinners, and those killed by specific demons) are confirmed to end up in the Demon World after their bodies are killed, but this does not mean that the souls originate from the Demon World or that the Demon World are their final destination.

Not only those killed by demons, we are told explicitly that demons manages souls period, same demon who is stated to be in charge of managing and controlling the residents of hell.

If this isn't explicit enough that all souls end in hell regardless if they were killed by demons or not then idk wtf to tell you.

It is not the case that ALL human souls end up in the Demon World; in fact, Devil May Cry 3 states several times that human souls get sent to hell for their sins, and it is redundant for the games to mention that specific demons will drag human souls to hell by killing them if the souls of humans will automatically go there after death.
It is entirely possible that non-sinning souls dissipate into the higher dimensional Primordial Chaos, and that if the souls of demons are permanently destroyed that they return to Primordial Chaos.

Do you have any proof that souls end up somewhere else? Because that smells heavily of headcanon when every piece of information explicitly says they end up in hell.

The chaos shit was already tackled as Chaos is in/with the demon world.

The argument claimed to be the 'nail in the coffin' for the Tier 1 position are these two statements from PoC referring to the origin of two demons:

Sparda and Trish were stated to be born in the Demon World multiple times, so it is not some new discovery, nor is it of much significance on its own.

What needs to be substantiated is the following:

• (1) Being born in the Demon World = Soul being created BY the Demon World​

Instead of:

• (2) Being born in the Demon World= Taking a form IN the Demon World after the soul was created by the Primordial Chaos that is different from the Demon World​

Not only is the evidence for (1) lacking, but there is evidence for (2).

Mundus has been stated to have been waiting for a chance to be 'reborn':


Mundus was sealed and waiting for a chance to regain his true form, but we can characterize him being formed as getting born again.

Furthermore, it is stated that Arkham had his final demonic form born after acquiring Sparda's power:

Berial, a fire-themed demon, was 'born' in the Fire Hell:

He was not born in some central core of Primordial Chaos located in the Demon World. Demons can simply be 'born' in various places in the Demon World, and their form is shaped by their environment. But this does not imply that there souls originates there; per PoC their existence originate in the Primodial Chaos before taking form in the Demon World.

An other demon, Bolverk, was stated to have been reborn in the Demon World after being destroyed:

If the origination of existence that composes the soul pre-exists the Demon World, as stated by PoC, then there is no difference between being born and reborn in the Demon World, as it is simply forming a body.

The Demon World has been called a crucible of chaos, but that doesn't refer to the primordial/original chaos, otherwise the previously mentioned boundary stones wouldn't be rare, and collecting the power of original chaos wouldn't requires the existence of light:

In conclusion, the claim that souls originate from the Demon World is explicitly contradicted by lore statements. It is not substantiated that the Primordial Chaos, where souls originate from, is equivalent to the Demon World before separation, or that the Demon World contains the Primordial Chaos where souls originate from; they are explicitly separate entities, and the Primordial Chaos spawned the Demon World into reality and pre-exists it.

---

I know that the revision can be controversial, but please let's be chill in the discussion and respect each other.
(I will definitely celebrate a downgrade though)

This is basically the same as before. The demon world gave form to abstract beings when it came into existence as stated in the scans but as the manga says the demon world became a container of chaos.

Yes, they were explicitly separated before the demon world existed, now though its just part of the infinite darkness.

Also do you know why those stones are rare? Because they are found by humans in the human world, a place that has nothing to do with the darkness or the chaos it contains.


In conclusion this thread is based on a single scan trying to dismiss dozens of scans from other materials and either a misunderstanding or lack of knowledge of where is the primordial chaos ended up and its relation to the darkness.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

The Human World also seems to basically passively affect it with hax on account of being its antithesis, which could sidestep the whole dimensions thing.

This is correct, the light was causing chaos and pandemonium to be in the endless darkness because of how opposite they are to each other and at the same time only the world of light was being torn apart and being destroyed.

The Human World is definitely finite in size

The human world is a standard Low 2-C universe (which afaik L2C is infinite too)

 

[Tarang123]

It makes sense, but I'm not a knowledgeable person on DMC, so I'll stay neutral.

Edit: Just to clear up confusion, I was originally talking about the OP making sense. Now, after seeing Tony's arguments, I'm neutral but leaning towards disagreeing

 

[Robo432343]

This is the thing, the scan is absolutely wrong.

First we know that the light did no separate the world, in fact it was a demon god who emerged from the darkness.

Secondly is that the demon world was never split in half, it was split in two. The manga gives us the whole story about how the light is only a small part of it to the point it was devoured by darkness something that was already established in the first novel as Gilver using a nexus the size of a bar was overwriting the human world's existence into a new demon world. Something that would be practically impossible if the human world was of the same size of the demon world.

For more proof of this the mirror world (a copy of the human world) is basically the front door to the demon world.

Also more proof that the human world is insignificant is that Mundus dimension, which is an infinitely expanding universe beyond human understanding, is only a battleground for Mundus and Dante inside the demon world.

Basically to use this piece of information to "debunk" all the previous lore and cosmology info dumps we have is like using DMC5 statement about SDT Dante being comparable to sparda, in other words its stupid and practically ignores everything.


And like I explained above the human world did not do shit except bring instability to the world, it brought Chaos, something that Pluto did not like and separated the world. (Mind you this shit was affecting the human world as the earth was torn apart many times over.) While the demon world, who is the crucible/container of chaos, was full of chaos.


It is in fact a mirror of the human world, hence why it is a "window in time and space" and serves as the entrance to the demon world.


Like I said, a single piece of one media contradicting several others is useless, just like Sparda being comparable to Dante in 5 yet Dante killing a stronger sparda clone or stronger enemies in earlier entries.

Also this same World that is repeatedly given infinite statements with two extra that are admittedly localizations. Several of which come from PoC.

Basically PoC itself contradicts that scan.




Good, very good and it would work perfectly if only you ignored how the demon world is specifically a container/crucible of chaos.

This is why souls come and go to the demon world:

-V saying return to the underworld to demons he's about to kill[3]

-Human souls going to hell (the demon world) after death[4]

-Demons managing the souls of the dead in the demon world[5]

-even PoC makes a reference to this in one of its Demon Book statements[1]

Here is the thing, yes Chaos predates the demon world but when the darkness came into existence it became the container of chaos. Chaos is either inside or melted together with the demon world (depending if you use container or crucible but IIRC container is the best translation) but the point is the same, the demon world now has chaos within it.

Not only those killed by demons, we are told explicitly that demons manages souls period, same demon who is stated to be in charge of managing and controlling the residents of hell.

If this isn't explicit enough that all souls end in hell regardless if they were killed by demons or not then idk wtf to tell you.

Do you have any proof that souls end up somewhere else? Because that smells heavily of headcanon when every piece of information explicitly says they end up in hell.

The chaos shit was already tackled as Chaos is in/with the demon world.


This is basically the same as before. The demon world gave form to abstract beings when it came into existence as stated in the scans but as the manga says the demon world became a container of chaos.

Yes, they were explicitly separated before the demon world existed, now though its just part of the infinite darkness.

Also do you know why those stones are rare? Because they are found by humans in the human world, a place that has nothing to do with the darkness or the chaos it contains.


In conclusion this thread is based on a single scan trying to dismiss dozens of scans from other materials and either a misunderstanding or lack of knowledge of where is the primordial chaos ended up and its relation to the darkness.

gg

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

agree, looks quite attractive to me.

 

[Deadguy]

I will only tackle the demon world and human world size comparison in poc

However, there is a crucial piece of evidence that needs to be accounted for.
According to more recent lore introduced by PoC, we learn that the light have split the world in half:



This can be easily reconciled with the endless darkness vs ray of light comparison, if it is only referring to the cosmology early on when the Human World was birthed within the Demon World. The statement of darkness engulfing the light is referring to Mundus almost succeeding in merging the Demon World and the Human World, and thus does not represent a fully separate Demon World and Human World.

We now have a new size description of the modern DMC cosmology from PoC that should be acknowledged.
Normally it would be fair to assume that the size difference between the Demon World and the Human World remained the same, but we now know that the light split the world in half.

While it's true that poc made that statement it's considered outlier against many infinite/endless statements throughout the franchise so one against like 4 or 5 so just one breaking statement shouldn't be taken as the definitive one especially if it was inconsistent in the series

The Demon World has a mirror dimension reflecting the Human World, however its size is not stated, and fiction has mirror dimensions that are much smaller than what they are reflecting. Being stated to reflect the evil in human hearts is flowery statements that doesn't mean anything specific

Yea because in other fictional stories they depict mirror dimensions as to be a dimension of it's own like mirror master as an example where his mirror dimension is like void however the mirror dimension is in dmc it's meant to be the reflection of the human world but everything in reverse it's even called the reflected world as again it's a copy of the human world but everything in reverse

Being called a window in time and space tells us that it is a portal, but this is not enough to insinuate a full independent space-time continuum.

Yes you're right it's a portal to a different space-time since again it's flow of time is different

This means that we should not interpret statements about endless darkness/sea/void to mean infinite, as new context-providing evidence does not support it. This also means that the Human World in current modern DMC cosmology cannot be considered infinitely smaller than the Demon World.

Again it's one statement that only got used once against multiple infinite statements across dmc related media as it's not only used in the games but also in the manga,novel,guide, etc and even on how when we used the raw it's still use the the same words

Also a supporting evidence is that in dmc1 brady guide stated that mundus wanted to take over verbatim a universe and nobody give me "maybe they referring mundus wanting to rule both the demon realm and the human world"because firstly mundus was already ruling over the demon realm and the page itself states "that sparda wanted to stop the attempt of the dark emperor to take over the universe" and sparda couldn't care less of the demon realm so both narratively and contextually the "universe" in that page is only referring to the human world

 

[Deadguy]

So yea I disagree with my and tony reasons

 

[SheevShezarrine]

This is correct, the light was causing chaos and pandemonium to be in the endless darkness because of how opposite they are to each other and at the same time only the world of light was being torn apart and being destroyed.



The human world is a standard Low 2-C universe (which afaik L2C is infinite too)

I meant finite in comparison to a 9-D structure, same as how 3-D is finite compared to 4-D

 

[Hellscream]

even if you assume it's qualitatively superior as the human world "is a ray of light in unending darkness" which is not how it's portrayed either way, considering that it's literally stated and shown to be split in two.
That would only prove it's qualitative superiority over a single dimension, where is the 9-D scaling exactly?
You're going off a single statement of it being 9-D?
there's literally 0 proof of DMC being 9-D

 

[Tarang123]

Isn't it literally stated that there are 9 higher dimensions somewhere?

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

This is the thing, the scan is absolutely wrong.

First we know that the light did no separate the world, in fact it was a demon god who emerged from the darkness.

Secondly is that the demon world was never split in half, it was split in two. The manga gives us the whole story about how the light is only a small part of it to the point it was devoured by darkness something that was already established in the first novel as Gilver using a nexus the size of a bar was overwriting the human world's existence into a new demon world. Something that would be practically impossible if the human world was of the same size of the demon world.

For more proof of this the mirror world (a copy of the human world) is basically the front door to the demon world.

Also more proof that the human world is insignificant is that Mundus dimension, which is an infinitely expanding universe beyond human understanding, is only a battleground for Mundus and Dante inside the demon world.

Basically to use this piece of information to "debunk" all the previous lore and cosmology info dumps we have is like using DMC5 statement about SDT Dante being comparable to sparda, in other words its stupid and practically ignores everything.


And like I explained above the human world did not do shit except bring instability to the world, it brought Chaos, something that Pluto did not like and separated the world. (Mind you this shit was affecting the human world as the earth was torn apart many times over.) While the demon world, who is the crucible/container of chaos, was full of chaos.


It is in fact a mirror of the human world, hence why it is a "window in time and space" and serves as the entrance to the demon world.


Like I said, a single piece of one media contradicting several others is useless, just like Sparda being comparable to Dante in 5 yet Dante killing a stronger sparda clone or stronger enemies in earlier entries.

Also this same World that is repeatedly given infinite statements with two extra that are admittedly localizations. Several of which come from PoC.

Basically PoC itself contradicts that scan.




Good, very good and it would work perfectly if only you ignored how the demon world is specifically a container/crucible of chaos.

This is why souls come and go to the demon world:

-V saying return to the underworld to demons he's about to kill[3]

-Human souls going to hell (the demon world) after death[4]

-Demons managing the souls of the dead in the demon world[5]

-even PoC makes a reference to this in one of its Demon Book statements[1]

Here is the thing, yes Chaos predates the demon world but when the darkness came into existence it became the container of chaos. Chaos is either inside or melted together with the demon world (depending if you use container or crucible but IIRC container is the best translation) but the point is the same, the demon world now has chaos within it.

Not only those killed by demons, we are told explicitly that demons manages souls period, same demon who is stated to be in charge of managing and controlling the residents of hell.

If this isn't explicit enough that all souls end in hell regardless if they were killed by demons or not then idk wtf to tell you.

Do you have any proof that souls end up somewhere else? Because that smells heavily of headcanon when every piece of information explicitly says they end up in hell.

The chaos shit was already tackled as Chaos is in/with the demon world.


This is basically the same as before. The demon world gave form to abstract beings when it came into existence as stated in the scans but as the manga says the demon world became a container of chaos.

Yes, they were explicitly separated before the demon world existed, now though its just part of the infinite darkness.

Also do you know why those stones are rare? Because they are found by humans in the human world, a place that has nothing to do with the darkness or the chaos it contains.


In conclusion this thread is based on a single scan trying to dismiss dozens of scans from other materials and either a misunderstanding or lack of knowledge of where is the primordial chaos ended up and its relation to the darkness.

Disagree because of Tony reasoning.
You just skipped some context from PoC.

Isn't it literally stated that there are 9 higher dimensions somewhere?

Human soul is nine dimensional geometrical object.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

even if you assume it's qualitatively superior as the human world "is a ray of light in unending darkness" which is not how it's portrayed either way, considering that it's literally stated and shown to be split in two.

You know what being split in two means? It means To cut or divide into two parts which is what happened here, pluto took an infinitely small part of the darkness and tore it away from it. Basically it was split in two

That would only prove it's qualitative superiority over a single dimension, where is the 9-D scaling exactly?
You're going off a single statement of it being 9-D?
there's literally 0 proof of DMC being 9-D

You need to check the previous attempt to a downgrade. In a scaling vacuum where we have proof of a dimension being qualitative superior any statement regarding its size or number of dimensions basically gives it said tier because it's already qualifying to it.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Isn't it literally stated that there are 9 higher dimensions somewhere?

"A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension"

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I won't cover everything here, but I will point out some things that are wrong.

The human world is a standard Low 2-C universe (which afaik L2C is infinite too)

Technically yes, but it can still be spatially finite. 3-A amounts of space + a temporal axis comprising of past, present, and future is enough for low 2-C.

Secondly is that the demon world was never split in half, it was split in two. The manga gives us the whole story about how the light is only a small part of it to the point it was devoured by darkness something that was already established in the first novel as Gilver using a nexus the size of a bar was overwriting the human world's existence into a new demon world. Something that would be practically impossible if the human world was of the same size of the demon world.

I don't think the OP claimed the two were equal in size; Just the the difference in size was not infinite or enough to trivialize the HW to the extent of being an entire lower dimension. The nexus thing is not really relevant when it comes to size, honestly, as one realm corrupting another and eventually overwriting it (with no given timeframe, at that) isn't an indicator of that realm being bigger. Being devoured by darkness is, again, not relevant since the context here also implies it being indicative of demons threatening to wipe out humanity.

For more proof of this the mirror world (a copy of the human world) is basically the front door to the demon world.

Being stated as an entrance to a place doesn't imply a significant size difference, let alone an infinite one. Entrances don't have a set size compared to what they're leading into, you know.

It is in fact a mirror of the human world, hence why it is a "window in time and space" and serves as the entrance to the demon world.

Being a window into a place doesn't mean it is a full copy of that place; Being stated as a "window" into something else is commonly used to convey only looking at a small part of a larger thing, so it's basically saying the mirror world is a small glimpse of the human world, not the whole thing.

I'll let Shadow cover the rest.