- 1,886
- 1,538
- Thread starter
- #81
Aight, changed the OP. Now time to deal with other issues here.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Devil May Cry: Information Manipulation
- Thread starter SuperSonicTL
- Start date
-
- Tags
- devil may cry
- Status
Tanin_iver
He/Him- 1,058
- 902
Did you mention this in a post in the CRT, that you updated it?
- 6,887
- 4,735
This the CRT brother, you mistook this for DM
- 2,775
- 3,369
I dont.I'll promise to not slander you for a whole week in exchange
Anyway I will just write views of both sides since too long to read whole thread
Summary
Main argument is genes being information, as well as
So addition by myself(Hecker) i would say even we dont agree on Information for Virtual World it would be Data Manipulation for Virtual World Manipulation.
And OP already addressed some issues in his own OP
A: Not necessarily. The argument presented is not that both Concept and Information are derived from a single identical premise but that the verse attributes distinct characteristics to names that can support separate interpretations.
Q: But Truth and essence can also contribute to IM2?
A: True but that depends heavily on the nature of the settings. In computational or simulation-based worlds, concepts such as truth, essence or true nature can be reducible to informational structures because reality itself is explicitly built on code or data. In such cases, those terms may simply describe underlying information.
However, that reduction is not automatic in metaphysical contexts. Terms such as truth, essence and true nature do not inherently default to informational definitions unless the setting explicitly establishes reality as fundamentally data-based. As historically treated, DMC has generally not been interpreted as a purely computational reality where all ontological properties reduce to information.
You can say some verses have metaphysical aspects like Marvel or GoW where magic is both essence and information. @Planck69 here and can clarify it if he wants
Based on this DMC will get
Disagree with Option A:
- Names act as like genes to a soul. Genes or genetic codes for that matter are basically underlying information and the fundamental instructions that determine how an organism develops and expresses itself. They serve as the underlying blueprint which shapes characteristics, function and identity. Likewise, names appear to operate as informational templates for souls themselves, molding their nature according to the meaning they embody.
- Changing names is treated as changing the values of the world itself as names do not merely affect individual entities but alter the very definitions and meanings attached to reality. By changing a name, the value and nature of everything tied to it can also be reshaped which causes reality itself to conform with the newly established meaning.
So addition by myself(Hecker) i would say even we dont agree on Information for Virtual World it would be Data Manipulation for Virtual World Manipulation.
And OP already addressed some issues in his own OP
Addressing Common Issues:
Q: Aren't both aspects for names extrapolated for the same thing?A: Not necessarily. The argument presented is not that both Concept and Information are derived from a single identical premise but that the verse attributes distinct characteristics to names that can support separate interpretations.
- Conceptual side: Names are repeatedly associated with terms such as "truth", "true nature" and are stated to alter the "value of the world" itself. This language concerns meaning, essence and definitional significance which are commonly associated with concepts.
- Informational side: Names are also described as moulds/templates analogous to genes, representing and shaping individuals. Such descriptions align with information functioning as structured templates or instructions that define states and characteristics.
Q: But Truth and essence can also contribute to IM2?
A: True but that depends heavily on the nature of the settings. In computational or simulation-based worlds, concepts such as truth, essence or true nature can be reducible to informational structures because reality itself is explicitly built on code or data. In such cases, those terms may simply describe underlying information.
However, that reduction is not automatic in metaphysical contexts. Terms such as truth, essence and true nature do not inherently default to informational definitions unless the setting explicitly establishes reality as fundamentally data-based. As historically treated, DMC has generally not been interpreted as a purely computational reality where all ontological properties reduce to information.
You can say some verses have metaphysical aspects like Marvel or GoW where magic is both essence and information. @Planck69 here and can clarify it if he wants
Based on this DMC will get
- Information type 1 & 2 for Names and Soulsby extension as names contain the information that passes down from heir to heir as well as soul can be used to manipulate virtual worlds.
- Adaptation through Reactive Evolution via breaking the seal overtime.
- Abstract Existence type 1 (Concept and Information) for Demons via being composed of Names and again, souls by extension.
- Aspect 4 on NEPs for Argosax, Hellfilth and Void Mundus via being non-existent from spiritual sense.
Disagree with Option A:
This is @RaikiKurohane99 and @Astral_Trinity439 arguments mostly. Since they say genes argument is enough for Information Manipulation. But well due to how metaphysicals aspects are treated, it would be iffy to assume with same reasons it is both CM and Information. Since argument from OP is
1. Names can affect worlds
2. Names are essential thing to exist
3. Names gives powers
4. Names are genes thus information
This would imply it is either concept or information. As brought in thread DDLC lost their concept for similar reasons. And in original thread of DMC CM1 arguments for Info were rejected due to Concepts being to do same.
Based on this DMC will get
Information Manipulation Type 2, as well AE and NEP for Information but lose their Conceptual Side
Agree with Option B:
Disagree with Option B:
1. Names can affect worlds
2. Names are essential thing to exist
3. Names gives powers
4. Names are genes thus information
This would imply it is either concept or information. As brought in thread DDLC lost their concept for similar reasons. And in original thread of DMC CM1 arguments for Info were rejected due to Concepts being to do same.
Based on this DMC will get
Information Manipulation Type 2, as well AE and NEP for Information but lose their Conceptual Side
Agree with Option B:
Disagree with Option B:
This was mostly my argument if somehow we consider Virtual world as real as other worlds. Since genes arguments for me not convincing enough for it being mostly semantics and Biology Manipulation. I only see arguable one here
For best supporting evidence PoC has Virtual World where the Kirk's family sacrificed their souls in order to trap countless demons in a virtual realm which can be manipulated by them afterwards, usually it is asked if Virtual Worlds are as real as normal worlds, but in DMC cases pocket worlds seems like to treat worlds as real. For Example we have Savior making near perfect replica of our world or literal realms composed of dreams that replicate our world but nowhere was virtualization ever mentioned for them. Therefore, we can conclude that the use of virtualization here is deliberate rather than interchangeable with the other realms shown throughout the series.
If we agree this is as real as normal worlds it would mean you can argue for Information Manipulation
Based on this DMC will get
Information Manipulation Type 2, Data Manipulation but not AE, NEP for Info since it has no correlation about names and soul being Information
Agree with Option C:
Disagree with Option C:
For best supporting evidence PoC has Virtual World where the Kirk's family sacrificed their souls in order to trap countless demons in a virtual realm which can be manipulated by them afterwards, usually it is asked if Virtual Worlds are as real as normal worlds, but in DMC cases pocket worlds seems like to treat worlds as real. For Example we have Savior making near perfect replica of our world or literal realms composed of dreams that replicate our world but nowhere was virtualization ever mentioned for them. Therefore, we can conclude that the use of virtualization here is deliberate rather than interchangeable with the other realms shown throughout the series.
If we agree this is as real as normal worlds it would mean you can argue for Information Manipulation
Based on this DMC will get
Information Manipulation Type 2, Data Manipulation but not AE, NEP for Info since it has no correlation about names and soul being Information
Agree with Option C:
Disagree with Option C:
Complete opposition is my first post with extended @Vietthai96 points.
Since genes itself has nothing to do with how information governs all reality, genes by definition is DNA, and changing DNA would obviously change your genes. But changing genes can be done via Biological Manipulation also. Do we give Information Manipulation to every Biology Manipulation? Obviously no.
And for Virtual World argument counter would be:
1. There is no evidence how Virtual World is treated as real as real world, and other realms telling us they are as perfect as real world doesn't relate to Virtual World itself. It would fall under Burden of Proof since we dont have enough evidence about Virtual World nature. Since Virtual Worlds are fake you need to exactly prove how they are as real as real world. Manipulation of Virtual World is at best Data Manipulation
Based on this DMC will get
Data Manipulation, but all arguments related to Information Type 2, AE, NEP would be rejected
Agree with Option D:
Disagree with Option D:
Since genes itself has nothing to do with how information governs all reality, genes by definition is DNA, and changing DNA would obviously change your genes. But changing genes can be done via Biological Manipulation also. Do we give Information Manipulation to every Biology Manipulation? Obviously no.
And for Virtual World argument counter would be:
1. There is no evidence how Virtual World is treated as real as real world, and other realms telling us they are as perfect as real world doesn't relate to Virtual World itself. It would fall under Burden of Proof since we dont have enough evidence about Virtual World nature. Since Virtual Worlds are fake you need to exactly prove how they are as real as real world. Manipulation of Virtual World is at best Data Manipulation
Based on this DMC will get
Data Manipulation, but all arguments related to Information Type 2, AE, NEP would be rejected
Agree with Option D:
Disagree with Option D:
I hope this covers everything, if it fits @SuperSonicTL you can add it to OP. Since it is staff and TLDR of arguments, it can be used summary for staff that comes. Meanwhile I will pin staff to if they changed their side after arguments.
Tanin_iver
He/Him- 1,058
- 902
Ahh, just link the OP please for Option A, your paraphrasing is fine and all but they should atleast get to read the OP and not get any misrepresentation as options.
They are different arguments and opinions not options. Staff can have their own consensus on what they agree or disagree with and clarify the same.
You can keep the rest as you want but change the options to Arguments.
Thank you.
Last edited:
- 1,886
- 1,538
- Thread starter
- #86
I'm working on the OP to make it more addressable so chill out man.
- 1,886
- 1,538
- Thread starter
- #87
I gave a small note in the OP to relate both of them via in-verse magic system. Take a look and tell me your opinion again. If you need to ask something specifically then tag me here.
AlipheeseXIV
He/Him- 3,296
- 1,799
Given that names are directly referred to as being similar to genes as well as the fact that the realm is called a virtual one where beings not only physically exist, but are even sealed and sacrificed? I think it seems plausible that this would likely be the work of IM2, and that the "data" here refers to informational data rather than computer data, otherwise...well I don't think it'd make any sense for Demons to be sealed there
Last edited:
- 11,498
- 5,330
agree with viett, disagree with op.
- 6,887
- 4,735
Bumpy
EL_xWatcher1234x
He/Him- 3,560
- 1,533
If a demon was mistaken for Dante and gained his name, will he also gain his powers?
- 1,886
- 1,538
- Thread starter
- #92
That's another interesting thing about names.
While Demons do get amp through names (as we seen with Dante in the novels), you also need a soul to support that scaling — as power originates from soul. Names only give them direction as their template. There are also Demons who's kind were never given names and they can use magical powers just fine. Same with V and Urizen because remember — both of them doesn't have a name but a mere label attached to themselves as reference.
Iirc, PoC also gave a similar case where Vergil have to combine itself with an armor, cast aside their original name and bear the new name: "power" to unleash their full potential.
Last edited:
- 13,823
- 19,632
The third approval was leaning towards agreeing, not agreeing.
- 10,462
- 4,122
DMC and other popular verses need a 3 votes thing. AFAIK this also applies to when there is disagreement so we need 4-1.
HenshinIntervention
Any/All- 1,305
- 844
Late to the CRT but I generally agree with the premise of the post. What I think a lot of people here are forgetting is that Metaphysical Aspects on this site are evaluated on a case by case basis.
Names in DMC are a metaphysical aspect of the verse and absolutely do have the capability to exhibit both informational and conceptual properties. The very page detailing how to index them emphasizes on the evaluation requiring inverse context, we cannot definitely say something is absolutely a concept or absolutely information. But we can equalize them to such things if they meet requirements, from what I see Names may qualify for information as well (although more showcases would be nice).
Names in DMC are a metaphysical aspect of the verse and absolutely do have the capability to exhibit both informational and conceptual properties. The very page detailing how to index them emphasizes on the evaluation requiring inverse context, we cannot definitely say something is absolutely a concept or absolutely information. But we can equalize them to such things if they meet requirements, from what I see Names may qualify for information as well (although more showcases would be nice).
- 15,200
- 22,450
Completely wrong, while you can have IM2 and CM1, it is completely different from being both conceptual and informational at the same time, either something is concept, or information, can't be both at the same time. Even the concept of information isn't information itself, just a concept that ground information
HenshinIntervention
Any/All- 1,305
- 844
You are misunderstanding how metaphysical equalization works on this site. In fictional verses, they have metaphysical aspects that are not directly called concepts, information, plot etc. This is why we equalize them to fit for indexing purposes. Relying on strict rigid classifications is specifically something that you ought to not do (according to the page, not me) when it comes to evaluating these aspects.
A metaphysical aspect like Names in DMC can have the properties of both information and concept, nothing says it can't, because that sort of rule doesn't exist on this site. Nor does it make sense, because deciding that a random metaphysical aspect is "only a concept" is arbitrary. With equalization there is a baseline requirement for these aspects to fit the definitions. There is some precedent that Names have informational aspects to it, your approval of the evidence that it follows the definition is the deciding factor here, not a site standard.
Last edited:
- 1,886
- 1,538
- Thread starter
- #100
Clearly some people have authority on what fictional verses in broader context represents
- 1,886
- 1,538
- 6,229
- 5,708
- 15,200
- 22,450
Case-by-case doesn't mean the complete destruction of the standard or logic, it isn't an excuse to make extraordinary argument easier to pass. We evenly evaluating case-by-case, context in-verse and applying the standard to them
You are completely misunderstood what is metaphysical equalization mean, it allows different verses have their metaphysical system interact with each others and fiting within the site standard. Such as Dao in cultivation verse can be understood as concept in order for it to interact with a concept system in another non-cultivation verse where they don't have Dao. It doesn't allows you to destroy the logic to get everything you want, concept can't be information at the same time
- 1,886
- 1,538
- Thread starter
- #104
Good thing I have supporting evidence of sort with virtual reality manipulation in a verse that deals with philosophy more often. Also, don't we apply these aspects collectively to Magic system for different verse at the same time? That sounds quite contradictory to me since we can't allow labels themselves to inherit both properties at once as separate substance.
You can outvote me you knows
- 15,200
- 22,450
?. Wdym? If you means that something X have both CM1 and IM2 then it is fine to have, but having the ability to manipulate something does not make you being that thing itself. It is fine if Name have CM1 and IM2, but it is not if you are arguing Name is concept and information themselves at the same time
Tanin_iver
He/Him- 1,058
- 902
Nothing wrong with both or vice versa.
EDIT: Anyways what were your other apprehensions about this thread.
- 15,200
- 22,450
What he means that concept can define information, and information can define concept, i already said it in.......eh......one of my comment in this thread. Not that information is also concept
Tanin_iver
He/Him- 1,058
- 902
Yeah, and we are talking about Names, which emulates both, not Information 2 or Concept in isolation. We are talking about the Metaphysical Aspect of Name itself and DT is clarifying that there is no hard and fast rules and abilities as well as Metaphysical Aspects can overlap.
It's not rigidly just concept or rigidly just info.
- 1,886
- 1,538
- Thread starter
- #109
I don't know what part is hard to understand... Why we integrate both concept and information in energy system? Because it contains both metaphysical aspects as components, even Planck said that in previous page. Also, virtual reality manipulation is right there at the corner. This is a similar case + there is no rigidness to it as per metaphysics page so let's just leave it at that.
- 15,200
- 22,450
No, what?. That is not what DontTalk have said? Concept can't be overlapped with Information
You are arguing about Name?
HenshinIntervention
Any/All- 1,305
- 844
The extraordinary argument in question is saying a metaphysical aspect can function as two aspects at the same time. He provides the evidence, it's up to you to accept or reject it.
I didn't say anything about destroying logic or whatever extreme case you made up here. It's very simple really, either express why you think a single aspect can describe Names without two at the same time or just reject the evidence of the other aspect entirely (with proper justification).
- 1,886
- 1,538
- Thread starter
- #112
Tanin_iver
He/Him- 1,058
- 902
DT is simply saying to not go by rigid definitions and clarifying Firestorm that something like Info 2 can also have Concept and to look at the Metaphysics page.
The argument here is that Name is sorted into both the existing abilities because of similarity as they are not an exact equivalence.
Something like say Attributes from Tensura which is listed as both Concept and Law:
Or are you saying that this is not at all fine by you?
- 858
- 419
Planck just gave his full approval, can this CRT be applied?
- 2,775
- 3,369
- 10,462
- 4,122
Grace hasn't even started, you need 4 votes since one staff is against it
- 858
- 419
I'm pretty sure 2 vote difference is enough.
- 10,462
- 4,122
not with big verses
- 858
- 419
Was that ever stated?
HelloThere1089
He/Him- 3,848
- 4,644
That's not how CRTs work, afaik. It's 48 hrs since the creation of the thread, not the consensus or majority. The latter only applies to vs threads. Also I think 3 votes and majority acceptance is fine. Nowhere is it mentioned that a difference of 3 votes is needed.
- Status
