Dialga, Palkia, Giratina and Arceus Durability check

[DontTalk]

So I wanted to ask about their durability again, after the recent stat revision.

Arceus durability was previously scaled from him taking the attacks of sealed Palkia, Dialga and Giratina at once. But that would only be a Multi-Universe level feat, since their sealed forms are only Universe level+.

He could of course be scaled of the durability unsealed Dialga, Palkia and Giratina displayed.

But where does there durability for unsealed forms durability come from? The pages stated due to being embodiement of Space, Time and Antimatter, but is that a sufficient argument for Multiverse level durability?

And if their "Likely Multiverse level" durability is correct and Arceus were to be scaled from them, wouldn't Arceus also be "Likely Multiverse level"?

 

[FanofRPGs]

They represent those aspects across a multiverse probably. Also, they could (somewhat) take hits by Arceus IIRC.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

^this

 

[Typhlosion130]

Likely. no. because arceus would be above all 3 of them. by quite a marjin (considering all 3 at once couldn't defeat him) it would be reasonable to have him at multiverse compared to 3 enemies that would count as likly multiverse.

Especially since we already know palkia can travel through dimensions, other worlds (pokemon has a multiverse theory around it and these ones seem to be able to go between) Which means its not neccarily ,limited to universal. (and plakia created a pocket dimension that one time which dialga some how found and got into)

To say Arceus is above that and time warping hax at the same time with a third one with immense power. I'd say its reasonable that arceus IS multiverse level not likly.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Also off topic, but can Giratina manipulate dark matter? Or only stuff like postrions?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Basically this^. Despite the stomp they were still able to somewhat survive getting spanked by Arceus in their fight and from being what they govern it should suffice as a justification.

But wouldnt taking hits from Arceus actually make their Durability Multiverse+? Them being Multiverse level in durability from being the concepts that make up the multiverse is justified and by taking hits from their creator would it go higher if anything?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Basically this^. Despite the stomp they were still able to somewhat survive getting spanked by Arceus in their fight and from being what they govern it should suffice as a justification.
But wouldnt taking hits from Arceus actually make their Durability Multiverse+? Them being Multiverse level in durability from being the concepts that make up the multiverse is justified and by taking hits from their creator would it go higher if anything?

Well Arceus wasn't trying to kill them.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Also off topic, but can Giratina manipulate dark matter? Or only stuff like postrions?

It isnt' really known. he rules over the distortion world on crimes that were apparently violent enough to warrent that.

All I think we know about him is, that he can manipulate dark energy. light. can travel through dimensoins (did it out of the blue to fight arceus) and some other basic feats. honestly giritina seems like the weakest of the 3.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Basically this^. Despite the stomp they were still able to somewhat survive getting spanked by Arceus in their fight and from being what they govern it should suffice as a justification.
But wouldnt taking hits from Arceus actually make their Durability Multiverse+? Them being Multiverse level in durability from being the concepts that make up the multiverse is justified and by taking hits from their creator would it go higher if anything?

Well Arceus wasn't trying to kill them.

Okay??? Could you explain a bit further plz Dragon?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

He probably only hit them hard enough to disable them. Also no Multiverse+ that's 2-A.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If I recall correctly, Incomplete Arceus with no Plates was still able to make absolute fodder out of sealed Palkia, Dialga, and Giratina, which would be Multi-Universal Durability for tanking multiple attacks at once, or At least Universal+ if tanking them one at a time.

As for the unsealed Creation Trio, I'm not 100% sure if we've seen them fight, but their durability is the same as their AP because regardless of conflict, they embody and transcend their multiversal concepts. There is no space without Palkia and no time without Dialga. The reason complete Arceus doesn't have the "likely" is because, despite us being unsure of exactly how many universes there are (which is why the Creation Trio have the "likely"), what we do know is that Arceus is well beyond the level of the multiverse. The multiverse was created by Palkia and Dialga (and Giratina for some parts), and they embody it, as well. However, they were still just crafted by Arceus, and are only a small portion of his power.

 

[Typhlosion130]

WHy would the overarching god want to kill the 2 gods he created to be put in charge of keeping teh flow of time and space in working order? So yea it makes sense he woudln't hit him with maximum power.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

WHy would the overarching god want to kill the 2 gods he created to be put in charge of keeping teh flow of time and space in working order? So yea it makes sense he woudln't hit him with maximum power.

True but hey he could always just recreate them. But on the most part yea that makes sense

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The reason complete Arceus doesn't have the "likely" is because, despite us being unsure of exactly how many universes there are (which is why the Creation Trio have the "likely"), what we do know is that Arceus is well beyond the level of the multiverse.

Do the games offer how many universes there are? Or are we still not sure if every game copy is a separate universe?

 

[Typhlosion130]

If I recall correctly, Incomplete Arceus with no Plates was still able to make absolute fodder out of sealed Palkia, Dialga, and Giratina, which would be Multi-Universal Durability for tanking multiple attacks at once, or At least Universal+ if tanking them one at a time.
As for the unsealed Creation Trio, I'm not 100% sure if we've seen them fight, but their durability is the same as their AP because regardless of conflict, they embody and transcend their multiversal concepts. There is no space without Palkia and no time without Dialga. The reason complete Arceus doesn't have the "likely" is because, despite us being unsure of exactly how many universes there are (which is why the Creation Trio have the "likely"), what we do know is that Arceus is well beyond the level of the multiverse. The multiverse was created by Palkia and Dialga (and Giratina for some parts), and they embody it, as well. However, they were still just crafted by Arceus, and are only a small portion of his power.

Actually. we do know there is at least 2. this is hinted at in the lore of all the games. usually when you're talking about trading. or the post game story of omega ruby or alpha saphire.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Arceus is likely on the higher end of Multiverse level due to the links in Reflection Cave. But there is no set number.

 

[Typhlosion130]

And the fact that there are 2 games per main game release almost all the time. Which the lore always interconnects between. And how plenty of htem release a third game. potentailly a third universe. but we can at least garuntee their rule over 2 uinverses. likly more.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'm sorry but the high end of Multiverse is much higher than the number of Pokémon games ever sold. Arceus can't be anywhere near 2-A with just that.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Typhlosion130 wrote
Actually. we do know there is at least 2. this is hinted at in the lore of all the games. usually when you're talking about trading. or the post game story of omega ruby or alpha saphire.

Far more than two, actually. Remember that even assuming there's only one universe each for Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, both those universes have Reflection Cave, with mirrors that lead to the Reflection Caves of other universes, with more mirrors to more universes, and so on.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

To be in 2-A you need to be in the millions to billions of universes range right? If we're treating each game copy sold = at least one universe, then I highly doubt there arent billions of game copy's sold worldwide

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

To be in 2-A you need to be in the millions to billions of universes range right? If we're treating each game copy sold = at least one universe, then I highly doubt there arent billions of game copy's sold worldwide

To be 2-A you need to be able to destroy/create an infinite amount of Space-time continuums.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Lol no you need to be 10^500 universes. Arceus is nowhere near that.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Lol no you need to be 10^500 universes. Arceus is nowhere near that.

I thought You needed an infinite amount of them to be 2-A.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Well Remember. This potentailly means he is in control of an infinite number of universes. potentailly. I mean just looking at hte role of all these we're talking about. even if they don't have that many. they very well easily could.

 

[DontTalk]

The reason complete Arceus doesn't have the "likely" is because, despite us being unsure of exactly how many universes there are (which is why the Creation Trio have the "likely"), what we do know is that Arceus is well beyond the level of the multiverse. The multiverse was created by Palkia and Dialga (and Giratina for some parts), and they embody it, as well. However, they were still just crafted by Arceus, and are only a small portion of his power.

This is an argument for him being ranked that in terms of AP maybe, but just because he is vastly more powerful than them he is not necessarily vastly more durable, no?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Anyway this is off topic. The durability looks fine.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Via the games, there is no way in hell there are "infinite" game copies for infinite universes. You can make as many copies as you want but there has to be an end to making them sometime with such finite materials.

But Reflection Cave might. In fact which Reflection Cave are we talking about here? Anime or Games?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This is an argument for him being ranked that in terms of AP maybe, but just because he is vastly more powerful than them he is not necessarily vastly more durable, no?

I don't really see any reason why his durability would be substantially lower than his AP when there is nothing to suggest this.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Via the games, there is no way in hell there are "infinite" game copies for infinite universes. You can make as many copies as you want but there has to be an end to making them sometime with such finite materials.
But Reflection Cave might. In fact which Reflection Cave are we talking about here? Anime or Games?

There doesn't have to be an end if you can create the materials of which to create them with from nothing. Which considering Arceus did just that (created palkia, dialga, keyoger, groudon, ryquaza and the building blocks for them to create a universe)

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yes but what im saying is, based off in-verse material, its extremely implied that each game is considered a seperate universe or timeline. But we cant use this to say there are infinite amounts of universes as we could never produce such never ending amount of pokemon games to acomplish that.

 

[DontTalk]

I don't really see any reason why his durability would be substantially lower than his AP when there is nothing to suggest this.

We never assume the durability = AP argument for characters just like that (even though people like to claim so occassionally). There is also nothing indicating that Nephthys durability is lower than her AP, but I still rank her just by her best durability feat and not any better.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Dont we have characters like from DB that have their Durability = AP?

 

[Typhlosion130]

Yes but what im saying is, based off in-verse material, its extremely implied that each game is considered a seperate universe or timeline. But we cant use this to say there are infinite amounts of universes as we could never produce such never ending amount of pokemon games to acomplish that.

But it was sort of suggested to be that way within the post game story of Alpha saphire and omega ruby. IT was said to be other versions of the game but we have animes, differnt game versions. ect ect. It really wouldn't be limited to how many games there are out there as story wise there will always be more.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Didn't origin form Giratina fight at least one of the three in Shaymin's movie?

And aren't Palkia and Dialga meant to be rivals who fight frequently, implying that they both have durability equal to AP, they're also all concepts that exist across the whole Pokemon multiverse.

And altered form Giratina was destroying both his and the regular universe just by entering the regular one in Platinum, so even in altered form he should be multi-universal.

 

[DontTalk]

Dont we have characters like from DB that have their Durability = AP?

I don't know. But if we have that either is wrong or has more specific reasons than just because it is assumed to be so until proven otherwise.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Dont we have characters like from DB that have their Durability = AP?

I don't know. But if we have that either is wrong or has more specific reasons than just because it is assumed to be so until proven otherwise.

(because it is just assumed to be so until poroven other wise) cough cough power scaling cough cough

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

We never assume the durability = AP argument for characters just like that (even though people like to claim so occassionally). There is also nothing indicating that Nephthys durability is lower than her AP, but I still rank her just by her best durability feat and not any better.

That is the problem though. Complete Arceus, as far as I know, does not have durability feats. However, it created Palkia, Dialga, and Giratina entirely under its own power. It is greatly superior to all three of them. Incomplete Arceus has shown to tank hits from sealed members of the Creation Trio like it's absolutely nothing. There is no reason complete Arceus should be any different.

In fact, by default, complete Arceus is so far above them he can simply nullify anything they choose to do.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well considering the all hold the concepts of the multiverse together I don't see the problem.tbh I mean there wasn't a problem with Multi-Universal Arceus. I'm a little lost here.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Can you two do this on the other thread?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

I'm with Azathoth. I don't understand why the rating is deemed to be based on assumption when in many storylines the Creation Trio are treated as lesser parts of Arceus, hence its durability should be at least equivalent, if not outright higher than its avatars.

(Also, I don't mean to derail but their range and striking strength are still the same as before despite composing the concepts of reality.)