DIAVOLO ACAUSALITY TYPE 4

[Fugo2022]

Diavolo possesses the power to see the future for about ten seconds. His stand allows him to erase it if he doesn't like what he sees.here

That is to say, he possesses precognition, and it is said that his power affects time, or the fourth dimension. What follows is a causal manipulation, because the following panel describes the consequences of King Crimson's power in his world. (1st proof of type 4 acausality) explanation of causality manipulation alone, everything is removed, only the effect remains (2nd proof of type 4 acausality)here

The definition of type 4 acausality is a different and irregular cause-and-effect system. Diavolo fits this definition because in the panel above, "everything in the world at that moment is erased, while only the 'result' remains." This is the causa manip, but we just need to prove the system in questionhere

Here is the system in question

Here, it is a different and irregular cause-and-effect system, which means that normally a causa manip only acts within a basic system and therefore cannot affect someone in another different and irregular cause-and-effect system because the cause is removed in its acausal system, and to apply a causality manipulation, there must always be a cause. Ben Diavolo, there isn't one, so by definition, this should give it a type 4 acausality (resistance to causa manipulation), which is itself linked to the ap uni+
Conclusion Diavolo possesses type 4 acausality

 

[Maniaunavailable]

sup bro, I suggest you do this on a single CRT, given this has already been disproved before. it would also be easier for the supporters if you do everything on a single CRT, so they don't have to jump between threads.

Deither way disagree with the thread

 

[Fugo2022]

sup bro, I suggest you do this on a single CRT, given this has already been disproved before. it would also be easier for the supporters if you do everything on a single CRT, so they don't have to jump between threads.

Deither way disagree with the thread

If you disagree with me, we can discuss it.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

If you disagree with me, we can discuss it.

ill let the supporters do it

 

[Fugo2022]

ill let the supporters do it

It's just that you changed the thread topic to Thread.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

It's just that you changed the thread topic to Thread.

it cuz u already did like 4 CRT that are currently ongoing, its going to be a mess to keep track of everyone if they are discussed. Just a head ups. I'll let the supporters discuss this. Gl

 

[Fugo2022]

ill let the supporters do it

it cuz u already did like 4 CRT that are currently ongoing, its going to be a mess to keep track of everyone if they are discussed. Just a head ups. I'll let the supporters discuss this. Gl

it cuz u already did like 4 CRT that are currently ongoing, its going to be a mess to keep track of everyone if they are discussed. Just a head ups. I'll let the supporters discuss this. Gl

How do we close these threads, please?

 

[VoidGoji]

At most, its limited Aca type 4. He is only free from it for ten seconds at most, and obeys fate normally outside of erased time

 

[Fugo2022]

At most, its limited Aca type 4. He is only free from it for ten seconds at most, and obeys fate normally outside of erased time

At most, its limited Aca type 4. He is only free from it for ten seconds at most, and obeys fate normally outside of erased time

Yes, that doesn't change anything because the vsbw never emphasized that type 4 acausality must be passive throughout, but Diavolo is in a different system for those few seconds and irre

 

[Maniaunavailable]

At most, its limited Aca type 4. He is only free from it for ten seconds at most, and obeys fate normally outside of erased time

isnt limited acasuality an anti feat?

 

[Chariot190]

isnt limited acasuality an anti feat?

Not really. It's just limited while the ability is active.

Tbh bro HAS a point here, but it's just done in a messy way that even if he's right, he's wrong in how he arrived there, which matters given we need to cite this shit on profile accurately.
It might not be type 4 tho, i forget which is which

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Not really. It's just limited while the ability is active.

Tbh bro HAS a point here, but it's just done in a messy way that even if he's right, he's wrong in how he arrived there, which matters given we need to cute this shit on profile accurately.
It might not be type 4 tho, i forget which is which

so he has acasuality as long as the stand is active right? so its a limited acasuality which I haven't seen before

 

[Chariot190]

so he has acasuality as long as the stand is active right? so its a limited acasuality which I haven't seen before

It's more like he flatout has it, it's not limited it works exactly as intended, but, only with his ability up.

Basically on off-on switch. He either has it fully, or not at all, no in-between.

 

[Fugo2022]

Not really. It's just limited while the ability is active.

Tbh bro HAS a point here, but it's just done in a messy way that even if he's right, he's wrong in how he arrived there, which matters given we need to cute this shit on profile accurately.
It might not be type 4 tho, i forget which is which

What is it then, since the different and irregular system has been proven and this confers resistance to the manipulation of causality?

 

[KaramcaS]

It's more like he flatout has it, it's not limited it works exactly as intended, but, only with his ability up.

Basically on off-on switch. He either has it fully, or not at all, no in-between.

This is the first time I've seen you write a short message

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Don't think its type 4 since it's just KC erasing space-time to a limited degree for his causality manip. I can see an argument for limited acaus type 2 while using the ability though since time is erased there.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Iirc, abilities that work exactly as normal but have issues with being activacted or should be passive but aren't are still listed as limited right?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Iirc, abilities that work exactly as normal but have issues with being activacted or should be passive but aren't are still listed as limited right?

Should be listed as Acausality type 4 with [STAND ability]

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Iirc, abilities that work exactly as normal but have issues with being activacted or should be passive but aren't are still listed as limited right?

Yeah, if the abilities activation requires very specific conditions or in the case of passive abilities not being passive (such as acausality or immortality or something) then it's usually limited. In the case of Diavolo with KC, the acaus would def be limited since it would only function when he actually uses the time erasure and only within the window that time erasure itself is active.

Should be listed as Acausality type 4 with [STAND ability]

I don't think it's acaus type 4 though, its not as if KC during time erasure functions under a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. It is just that by nature of time erasure, causality itself ceases to function normally in those moments. It would be like arguing Dio with timestop has resistance to law manip just because time is stopped when he uses TW.

 

[Greatsage13th]

It would be like arguing Dio with timestop has resistance to law manip just because time is stopped when he uses TW.

Mind telling everyone how?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Mind telling everyone how?

Well unless there's guide book stuff that refutes how KC works, it's just like what I said. KC has the ability to remove space and in the process, it allows him to erase all the process of the actions done in the erased time, leaving only its results. The reason why that wouldn't be acausality type 4 is pretty obvious from this, he's simply erasing the process of actions done in this state and leaving only its results its not like he's actually operating on a different notion of causality.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Well unless there's guide book stuff that refutes how KC works, it's just like what I said. KC has the ability to remove space and in the process, it allows him to erase all the process of the actions done in the erased time, leaving only its results. The reason why that wouldn't be acausality type 4 is pretty obvious from this, he's simply erasing the process of actions done in this state and leaving only its results its not like he's actually operating on a different notion of causality.

But he has the upsides of being acausality type 4 without having acausality type 4 doesn't he? Then what can this be labelled as?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

But he has the upsides of being acausality type 4 without having acausality type 4 doesn't he? Then what can this be labelled as?

Yeah exactly, it's basically like someone who has resistance to precognition but doesn't actually have acausality type 2. For this, you can simply give him the resistance to the abilities outright. There's also the fact that by default acaus type 4 doesn't actually give you resistance to any abilities nowadays, only stuff that's blatantly shown so the ability by itself is kinda fluff now.

 

[Fugo2022]

What is it then, since the different and irregular system has been proven and this confers resistance to the manipulation of causality?

Yes, because the cause is eliminated in its acausal state, so we cannot impose causality manipulation.

 

[Fugo2022]

Don't think its type 4 since it's just KC erasing space-time to a limited degree for his causality manip. I can see an argument for limited acaus type 2 while using the ability though since time is erased there.

Not only because it erases not only time but also the cause, leaving only the result, so by definition we have an irregular and different system, therefore this is type 4 acausality.

 

[Fugo2022]

Yeah exactly, it's basically like someone who has resistance to precognition but doesn't actually have acausality type 2. For this, you can simply give him the resistance to the abilities outright. There's also the fact that by default acaus type 4 doesn't actually give you resistance to any abilities nowadays, only stuff that's blatantly shown so the ability by itself is kinda fluff now.

But I have shown that the cause is removed; that seems logical.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Not only because it erases not only time but also the cause, leaving only the result, so by definition we have an irregular and different system, therefore this is type 4 acausality.

the scans only show a limited resistance as far as I seen

 

[Fugo2022]

The scans only show a limited resistance as far as I saw

especially a time-limited ability not in the ability itself because I proved everything

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Not only because it erases not only time but also the cause, leaving only the result, so by definition we have an irregular and different system, therefore this is type 4 acausality.

I mean I wasn't denying that, but erasing/stopping something from functioning normally and hence being unaffected by it is different from -> being inherently unbound and/or operating on a completely separate notion of said thing and thus being unaffected as a result. This is kinda the crux of the argument right now, and like I mentioned before since acaus type 4 doesn't inherently give any resistance like it used to, you'd then need the added fact of actually providing proof for what exactly he would even have resistance to with it. Otherwise it's just kinda there to look good and nothing more.

 

[Fugo2022]

I mean I wasn't denying that, but erasing/stopping something from functioning normally and hence being unaffected by it is different from -> being inherently unbound and/or operating on a completely separate notion of said thing and thus being unaffected as a result. This is kinda the crux of the argument right now, and like I mentioned before since acaus type 4 doesn't inherently give any resistance like it used to, you'd then need the added fact of actually providing proof for what exactly he would even have resistance to with it. Otherwise it's just kinda there to look good and nothing more.

He creates his own system when he erases time and applies it to himself.

This allows him to no longer be subject to the same system of causality as the classical one. Limited in time, above all. Not limited in capacity itself. It is limited in time, above all. Not limited in capacity itself.
It is a causa manip, but one that he applies to his own existence.

So it amounts to acausality.
The causa manip

When he applies it

He removes the last few

seconds that the world has lived

Absolutely the entire universe is affected

Except him

So at that moment he is acausal


In fact,

The cause is removed in its acausal system.

However, GER still manages to apply causality manipulation even though we know that this is a moment when we are in an acausal system. This is where we gain the layer. Because, by definition, acausality 4 has resistance to causality manipulation.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

snip

Is there any scan that verbatim states this? Cuz if it's just your own personal interpretation of the feat then you need a ton of scans to support your argument rather than just putting them down into words.

 

[DRW001]

In regards to OP, I do believe it's worth mentioning that via Time Erasure, Diavolo can bypass and skip over any fated prediction that Epitaph foretells him. This is despite Epitaph's predictions being absolute and can never be overturned. In addition, Diavolo can move freely and not abide by the fated events that should have occurred if time were not erased. Whereas the forecast-esque images of everything else must instead follow their predetermined fated actions, which only Diavolo can react to. (ngl, allowing Diavolo to become 'acausal' to bypass and 'overcome' the pitfalls of fate is the primary objective of his ability, which is why he yaps about 'standing upon the apex of fate' and shit like that nearly every time he uses it. This all ties in to 'sleeping slaves', fate being the central theme and subtext of part 5, etc.). This blog here also goes in depth with how Diavolo abuses time erasure to bypass fate

Plus, TE erases all processes and 'obliterates events' that would have occurred within that erased time, so we know he's also ******* over causality as well in TE.

Though tbh, I'm not too sure how it should be listed. It's not something Diavolo's innate existance has, only when he's using his ability. Maybe something like 'Type 4 Acausality via Time Erasure' or 'Resistance to fate/causality via Time erasure' or whatever. I would say 'limited' but Chariot explained above how that isn't really the case. But I firmly believe that this should be indicated at least somewhere on his profile, as allowing Diavolo to bypass and avoid absolute, fated events is the whole point of time erasure. (and then ig GER gets acausality negation/layered causality/whatever for telling Diavolo to eat shit in time erasure).

Because, by definition, acausality 4 has resistance to causality manipulation.

I believe this links in to the point the other guy was making above. Type 4 acausality no longer inherently grants resistance to fate and causality by itself any more, you need showings of said resistances as (i think) people were abusing it in the past to give characters several abilities that they had no showings of. Could be wrong here though. The CRT for this change is here. Which is why some people are saying it's a fluff ability as a good majority of characters who now have it listed don't actually resist fate/causality. So if there's no further justification for Diavolo resisting and effecting these things, him getting Type 4 acausality and GER getting negation for that is lowkey meaningless.

The P&A section for Type 4 Acausality also changed on the wiki to reflect this:

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This has the potential to grant them resistances to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others, depending on its shown capabilities which should be specified on the given page.

(******* potential man ability)
(also my pc blew up so i did this on mobile, hopefully all of the scans are okay)

 

[DRW001]

bump

 

[Fugo2022]

que cela rejoint le point soulevé plus haut. L'acausalité de type 4 n'octroie plus intrinsèquement de résistance au destin et à la causalité ; il faut désormais des démonstrations de ces résistances, car (il me semble) certains en abusaient par le passé pour attribuer à des personnages des capacités qu'ils ne possédaient pas. Je peux me tromper. Le tableau des règles de ce changement est disponible ici . C'est pourquoi certains la considèrent comme une capacité superflue, car la plupart des personnages qui la possèdent ne résistent pas réellement au destin/à la causalité. Par conséquent, si la résistance et l'influence de Diavolo sur ces éléments ne sont pas justifiées, le fait qu'il obtienne l'acausalité de type 4 et que GER puisse la nier n'a pas vraiment de sens.

La section « P&A » concernant l'acausalité de type 4 a également été modifiée sur le wiki en conséquence.

So you summarized its power well But if yes it is an Acausality limited by time so the vsbw did not mention any concerning that this power must be activated all the time and to show the resistance Diavolo says that the cause is erased but a banal user of the manipulation of causality will not be able to apply it because if there is no cause We can not do anything so this is indeed a type 4 Acausality resistance to causality manipulation

 

[DRW001]

Suppose all we need is staff evaluations now

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I am confused as to why this will qualify as Type 4 Acausality.


The requirement for Type 4 Acausality is literally operating on a different and irregular system of cause and effect.

Here it is literally just plain old causality manipulation if you ask me.

Causality Manipulation

The user can redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect. This allows one to achieve virtually anything by redirecting the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

In regards to OP, I do believe it's worth mentioning that via Time Erasure, Diavolo can bypass and skip over any fated prediction that Epitaph foretells him. This is despite Epitaph's predictions being absolute and can never be overturned. In addition, Diavolo can move freely and not abide by the fated events that should have occurred if time were not erased. Whereas the forecast-esque images of everything else must instead follow their predetermined fated actions, which only Diavolo can react to. (ngl, allowing Diavolo to become 'acausal' to bypass and 'overcome' the pitfalls of fate is the primary objective of his ability, which is why he yaps about 'standing upon the apex of fate' and shit like that nearly every time he uses it. This all ties in to 'sleeping slaves', fate being the central theme and subtext of part 5, etc.). This blog here also goes in depth with how Diavolo abuses time erasure to bypass fate

Plus, TE erases all processes and 'obliterates events' that would have occurred within that erased time, so we know he's also ******* over causality as well in TE.

Though tbh, I'm not too sure how it should be listed. It's not something Diavolo's innate existance has, only when he's using his ability. Maybe something like 'Type 4 Acausality via Time Erasure' or 'Resistance to fate/causality via Time erasure' or whatever. I would say 'limited' but Chariot explained above how that isn't really the case. But I firmly believe that this should be indicated at least somewhere on his profile, as allowing Diavolo to bypass and avoid absolute, fated events is the whole point of time erasure. (and then ig GER gets acausality negation/layered causality/whatever for telling Diavolo to eat shit in time erasure).


I believe this links in to the point the other guy was making above. Type 4 acausality no longer inherently grants resistance to fate and causality by itself any more, you need showings of said resistances as (i think) people were abusing it in the past to give characters several abilities that they had no showings of. Could be wrong here though. The CRT for this change is here. Which is why some people are saying it's a fluff ability as a good majority of characters who now have it listed don't actually resist fate/causality. So if there's no further justification for Diavolo resisting and effecting these things, him getting Type 4 acausality and GER getting negation for that is lowkey meaningless.

The P&A section for Type 4 Acausality also changed on the wiki to reflect this:

(******* potential man ability)
(also my pc blew up so i did this on mobile, hopefully all of the scans are okay)

Even what this guy say is Diavolo manipulating causality (cause and effect) to his favor.

He remove the cause, but the effect happens (IIRC it did happen to Giorno and the gang when King Crimson’s ability was activated before the final battle with Diavolo)

As such, it sounds like to me he using causality manipulation to put himself into a more favorable outcome.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

sup bro, I suggest you do this on a single CRT, given this has already been disproved before. it would also be easier for the supporters if you do everything on a single CRT, so they don't have to jump between threads.

Deither way disagree with the thread

Anyway, as mentioned above, we do need actual statements that King Crimson is operating in a different system of causality (cause and effect) otherwise as I say above, it is just Diavolo using his Time Erasure to manipulate causality in his favor so he comes out on top.

After all, we know King Crimson’s ability has affected multiple people like Bruno, Giorno, and a lot of other people quite well with KC’s foresight ability which also paired well with his Time Erasure.

Edit: You can put me as outright and firm disagreement as all the available evidence including (or excluding anime scenes) point towards Diavolo using KC’s Time Erasure and foresight ability to manipulate causality (cause and effect) to his advantage.

 

[Fugo2022]

Anyway, as mentioned above, we do need actual statements that King Crimson is operating in a different system of causality (cause and effect) otherwise as I say above, it is just Diavolo using his Time Erasure to manipulate causality in his favor so he comes out on top.

After all, we know King Crimson’s ability has affected multiple people like Bruno, Giorno, and a lot of other people quite well with KC’s foresight ability which also paired well with his Time Erasure.

Edit: You can put me as outright and firm disagreement as all the available evidence including (or excluding anime scenes) point towards Diavolo using KC’s Time Erasure and foresight ability to manipulate causality (cause and effect) to his advantage.

But I explained everything clearly. Diavolo places this sub-causality manipulation under his existence.