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Disgaea/Nipponverse: call for deletion/"complete rework"

QuasiYuri

They/Them
VS Battles
Retired
6,605
4,143
As of today, I think it is an understatement to say that my view on the Nipponverse pages is that they may be in the top 10 worst profiles we have here.
While good in appearance and structuring, everything else is very underwhelming, and once you get to know the series a little you quickly start to realize that there's more than one problem.

Btw: I obviously didn't play every games so I'm only 100% knowledgeable on D1/DD2/D4/Z.H.P; however I obviously did some research related to what we have on the profiles and saw random stuff in general

Grammar/Spelling issues​

First one may be considered nitpicking and quite minor, but I like to think that if there's funny errors in the style, it's usually a sign of errors in the content.

For some reasons Disgaea profiles have quite bad grammar or spelling. Main example will be Overlord Laharl.

First odd thing I saw was P&A section. Besides thing like capitalized "Vaporized" in the regen section, and second one is the pronouns used. Sometimes the description use he/his and sometimes they/them.
It is something found across all profiles since most of it is copy/pasted on everyone (it also raises other issues which I'll get to later).

Going toward the stats, you can also spot stuff such as "Was able to destroyer every star" or "Omaga star" (despite the ability name being Omega Star). The latter being an error across most if not all profile.

But style issue aren't that important, so let's move on to see bigger problems.

Keys​

I know that Early/Mid/Late/End Game keys are a good way to separate characters who didn't get plot-related/directly stated power boost during the game. But for characters that appear in more than one game? It sucks.

Let's take the 3 main characters of the first Disgaea; Laharl, Etna, and Flonne as example.

Laharl: Appeared in 17 games in total (although he is an actual story-relevant character in few of them) . So which game his keys are meant to reference? The most reasonnable guess would be that it is from his origin game, Disgaea 1. Yet his very first key is a feat from Disgaea D2, the sequel, meaning it is after any "late game" Laharl of D1. And his feat of "defeating Seraph Lamington", in his last key? It happens before his very first key's feat. Also most of these aren't even actual "late game" feats, but are from appearance in others game as DLC or post-game.

Etna: Similar problem. Which game are her keys referencing? First one? Yet her last key includes stuff from D2. Her case is also nearly worst, because Etna's power has known big changes between games (went back to level 1 in D2, got her sealed power from when she was a child back in DD2), yet none of her keys allows you to know that at all.

Flonne: Same. Flonne had several form; from Angel Trainee, to Fallen Angel, to Pure Flonne, to actual Archangel Flonne. If we take her keys as D1, then it only acknowledge a single form for no reason.

But there's more problem than just that, such as those of Overlord Mao and the "Prinny" page.

Mao: He has a key for when he gets his "full power", which is just labelled "Bad Ending". Besides lacking scan (in which case this never would have been a key to begin with), Nipponverse games usually have way more than one bad ending. Naming which one it is would be a beginning.

Prinny: So, there's a "Hero Prinny" key which supposedly make the race 7 tiers above what they usually are. Does this mean it is a super special Prinny with Overlord-level power? Nah, it's just a bunch of regular Prinnies (one thousand, to be exact) who take 3 hits instead of one before dying thanks to Etna's scarf. No great power boost, no "respawn", or anything similar. In fact, the ending of Prinny: Can I Really Be the Hero? show them as unable to destroy a Demon Lord-level glass, with it only breaking when their scarf turns into Etna's spear and break it. Then they got saved from Junk Etna's (a bad experiment supposed to rival a Demon Lord) death by Etna's spear again in Prinny 2 (they also beat Junk Etna thanks to canon and stuff). Oh, and the two games keep having them complain about how they are the lowest of the low and keep making them fight pitiful opponents in general.

In fact, the only profiles I saw with an acceptable key repartition would be Valvatorez and Marjoly. The former D4's story stuff are in the 3 first, and he has a post-D4 (which would be better as "post-game") key to put the other stuff that otherwise wouldn't fit the narrative. The latter has a clear "Disgaea" key to not have bs like her being 2-A with her best feat being tier 8.

So before attacking anything VS-related, we already see that the profiles have a lotta problems.

Tiers​

Something I always found impressive is that the profiles succeed to nearly get every single key wrong. I previously had some little list of what's the strongest feat of each game I was sure of was (nothing really went past tier 4 and most were in tier 5 territory), but I'll just point out why the current justifications are bad).

4-A​

4-A is what absolutely everyone scales above, Prinny included. It is based on the very beginning of DD2, when Laharl destroyed "every star in sight", only to have Etna tell him that it is actually not really impressive for a demon. In theory this looks like blatant 4-A. Except it isn't.

The most important part is that it isn't an instant feat. Laharl didn't destroy the stars in front of Flonne, he came to see her and say "hey I finished doing that". When Etna tells him how nobody cares, he complains that his "hard work has been a complete waste of time". So not only was it not instant, but it took him considerable time to do so, in which case a better assumption would be that he destroyed them one by one.
Etna commenting on "you can destroy as many stars as you want" also implies that it is a one-by-one thing, and not just a single attack destroying 'em all.

Now, Etna also says that "most demons can destroy the stars", which is why it isn't impressive. But why are Prinny and some others lowest of the low part of these "most demons"? If they could do the same, Etna would have just said "all demons" (although iirc one Prinny attack have them make an explosion big as a star, but they die from that anyway).

So the most common feat used is already wrong. Not only should it not apply to everyone, but it should rather be 4-C than anything near 4-A.

3-B​

It's based on one thing. Omega Star's animation in Disgaea 5 (and ONLY in Disgaea 5, every others, including D6 have way different animations and even their Tera Star animations are nowhere near that specific one).

Besides personally not being a big fan of inconsistent animations if they don't fit much in the narrative; I think you just need two non-blind eyes to see how it isn't tier 3 at all.

The galaxies and stuff aren't in the robot, we just see them through the transparent robot body. We even see what its size actually is. The two arms it has are nearly its size, and those are less than half the size of the planet they're destroying.

Unless planets in Disgaea are actually entire galaxies, it's just a tier based on misinterpretation of a tier 5 feat (you could also argue the galaxy stuff is just visual miscaling, since some previous game star attacks had stuff like Saturn and Mars being the same size and crashing on a small place on Earth as an animation).

Oh, and it isn't the only case that use a random skill to turn it into a whole new tier.

3-A​

What's 3-A justification for demons such as Succubus? "Equal to demons that can make a big bang by just punching". Since it links nothing, I have to guess that they mean the Big Bang skill, a very strong hand-weapon skill (couldn't find D3 and 6 portrayals, but I doubt it would have changed much).

Let's look what D1 and D2 say about it and how it is portrayed; they share the same description of "Head-on collision with the Sun". Not a good start for 3-A.
But how does each portray it? For D1, it's exactly what it says on the tin: the character pushes his opponents into the Sun. For D2, it creates a pseudo-small black hole that explodes...? Don't see why they share the same description tbh.
Regardless, none is remotely close to tier 3.

For Disagea 5, the description makes it easier: "[Warning] Images of this skill are just a reenactment". Nothing worth it here.

Disgaea 4 is the most promising one in term of description, saying it is "the ultimate fist move that changes history". The portrayal? Kage Bushin no Jutsu + an explosion smaller than a planet.

Needless to say, if a name was enough to get 3-A, Sayajin Saga Vegeta would be 3-A because he has a move called Big Bang. So yet another wrong tier (also it makes the calcs based on it and Omega Star useless).

2-A​

This one is such a mess of circular scaling that you have to spend at least 10 minutes to finally find the feats which are supposed to give the tier.

The only profiles with feats besides scaling are the 4 following: Overlord Laharl, Overlord Mao, Alexander (Makai Kingdom) and Asagi Asagiri.

First one is Baal's Grave Eternity having for description that "the 4th dimension is nothing to a Super Overlord" (why this isn't on Baal's profile? Idk). However, I think we can all agree that such a statement is quite vague. And given how the attack actually looks, it is most likely referring to how dude like to manipulate his geometric shape and stuff with ease.

For the second one, it says that Mao "Was able to destroy the known universes when using his full power, and it was stated that no one could stop him, on top of being the most powerful overlord while in this state". Closest ending I found to the description is the Evil Mao Ending, in which he beats Super Hero Aurum and killed everyone, stating that there was "no human world, no Netherworld, no Celestia. Everything disappeared, and was gone...".
Besides the "strongest Overlord thing" being most likely Super Hero Aurum's view rather than a fact (given how everyone and their grandmother is considered the strongest overlord), nothing talk about the entire multiverse disappearing. In fact, it only seem to be restricted to Mao's universe, with no implication that it extends far beyond that (although nobody would scale to this Bad End anyway).

Third one comes from Makai Kingdom's 4th bad end, in which Alexander defeats Zetta. Besides bad end like that usually being kinda over-the-top for the character who caused it (although I'm not making that an argument), it is clearly an overtime feat. Alexander "set upon" destroying worlds in his quest of a worthy foe for "billions years", but realized he would never meet a foe as strong as Zetta. Not sure how we treat destroying an infinite multiverse overtime though, even if it is implied to be one world at a time.
(I would say the ending is also kinda weird in that if we take DLC and stuff as we seem to do, there's beings able to fight Zetta, and by extension, Alexander; but I highly doubt Nippon-Ichi cares about scaling in any form.)

Aaand last one is Asagi using Fear the Great, D4's final boss, in the post-game and seemingly "resetting the multiverse" with it. First thing is that Fear the Great is a system meant to destroy planets that went too far in malice, such as Earth (because of Nemo's) action; D4's story never portrays it as anything beyond that, and the moon falling toward the Earth is nearly seen as a bigger threat.
Fenrich also calls her "the power attemping to take control of the universe" (he also says it earlier in the Postgame) and they keep saying "this world" or "this dimension", instead of talking about the entire multiverse or anything, despite their conversation having Etna say that she's "that sad little ghost who's always wandering through various worlds".
However I think the confusion comes from her wish having the range to reach others dimensions to bring people here, which is how some others Disgaea characters appear in this Postgame as well as her wish being stated to engulf everything and erase everything; however context still insists on it being universal in scale and restricted to that specific dimension. This is basically summed-up here.

So out of the 4 feats, two implies a universal scale rather than the entire multiverse (with not much characters truly scaling to it) , one of them is overtime and the last one is just vague and at best supporting evidence. Not exactly enough to make 20+ games have most EoS characters scale to that when their actual feat aren't that good (ex: DD2 Laharl and Etna barely defeated someone with the power of a SINGLE Netherworld, being the final boss of said game). Two of them are also bad end, known to always go way too far in stuff.

I could mention how there's a lot of anti-feats too, such as the DD2 one I mentionned or the moon falling being something D4 cast only could stop by all giving their prayers to Great Flonzor X, but this thread's goal isn't to determine what's the most coherent tier if we redo the verse pages.

Scaling​

If the tier reasonning are so hard to find quickly, here's the reason: Disgaea's scaling is so circular and badly structured you will only reach the actual feats by chance.

Let's take Zetta as an example. His justification is that he's the most powerful overlord and all, putting him leagues above overlord like Laharl. Part of Laharl's justification is that he defeated Alexander. Part of Alexander's justification is that he is Zetta's rival, meaning Zetta shouldn't be "leagues above" Laharl.

Talking about Laharl, he also has matching Mao as part of his justification, despite Mao's only justification being that he matches Laharl (bad end not included).

But the main issue to me is that most scaling comes from Postlude, Postgame, DLC and Bonuses, which blatantly contradict the power level and coe depicted in the actual story the characters have during their own story.

Most blatant example being Darkdeath Evilman, who's apparently 2-A in every single key for being a bonus/DLC boss in other game. In his original game? He's a threat to several cities of the world and one shot the biggest ones in his lower form, and his final form's suicidal attack is a planetary explosion which was countered by pushing it near the Sun so that it doesn't hit the Earth (nearly killing the Unlosing Ranger as well, who was equal to him).

I also find very odd to use Asagi as any form of basis for a scaling. She's an inconsistent guest character in personality, voice, and power. And apparently Disgaea 5 revealed that "Asagi" is more of a species as a sort of retcon? So using her for scaling is weird as well.

Overall, even if we discard some errors like Mao's case, giving Nipponverse good scaling is a harder task than what it seems, and our profiles don't do it well.

P&A​

This one is lazy copy/paste for the most part without referencing of what ability is causing which effect.
You can compare Laharl and Prinny profile for that one:

Dimensional Storage, Platform Creation (Is able to form glyphs that can be used as platforms), Hellfire Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Homing Attack, Portal Creation, Afterimage Creation, Pocket Reality Manipulation, Size Manipulation, Duplication, Attack Reflection, Instinctive Reaction (Their body automatically block, and dodge incoming attacks without thinking), Precognition (Can see enemy attacks before they happen), Resistance Negation (his attacks can bypass Fire, ice, air, and light resistances), Death Manipulation (Can inflict the death blow status), Healing Negation (Lowers enemy healing magic to 50% power.), Damage Reduction (Can lower the damage of attacks of those effected by a status effect), Damage Boost (Passively boosts the damage of there fire, ice, air, and light attacks by 130%), Purification (Type 3 Can remove the Sleep, Shrink, Charm, Depraved, Curse, Forget, Paralysis, and Poison Status effects), Curse Manipulation, Life Manipulation, Teleportation, Necromancy (Enemies they kill will raised as zombies), Resurrection (when they are killed in combat they revive as a zombie), Probability Manipulation (Can manipulate their enemies luck to push a fight in their favor), Absolute Zero (Via Cocytus), Aura (Has a close range that nullifies enemy's ability to use skills, and lowers an enemy's durability, and speed by 20%), Regeneration (Mid-High, Can regenerate from being Vaporized), Reactive Evolution (When a skill damages them it becomes 30% less effective afterword), Stamina Recovery (Gains 10% of their stamina back after every action, gains stamina equal to 50% of damage taken, 10% of damage dealt turns into stamina, 10% of stamina use for skills are recovered), Durability Negation (25% of normal physical damage does a set amount of damage to enemies), Reactive Power Level (When they are hit their attack power is increased by 10%, maxing at 100%)

Unless everyone has the same evilities and coe, I highly doubt this is accurate at all.

The worst offender here is Absolute Zero (Via Cocytus). Not only is Cocytus a gun skill, something monsters like Prinny or Succubus CAN'T use (unlike characters who aren't proeficient with guns, who just canonically don't use one), the skill's description has absolutely nothing to do with Absolute Zero.

I actually hardly can't find any P&A reflecting a character's unique abilities on their profile, making it just random percentages and words that come from nowhere.

Naming​

To end on a more minor issue: I don't like the naming used for the likes of Mao and Laharl.

They aren't born Overlord (Laharl isn't even a proper Overlord in D1, being one in name only), nor is it their family name. Same for Demon Lord Etna.

It's just meaningless.

Conclusion​

Grammar bad, keys sucks, scaling sucks, tier sucks, P&A sucks, naming I don't like.

And given how the verse includes 20+ games, unless someone wants to go through the pain of editing dozens of profiles in everything but picture, it is way better to just nuke everything and start from 0 (or just let it nuked in case nobody wants to redo stuff).

That's all.
 
for 3-B: the galaxies are clearly in the robot. the attack starts with zooming out from the orb in the robot you will need to bring proof outside of "I don't think it is". as well disgaea 5 is before the other games meaning it should be a viable summon as well demon post diagaea 5 are stronger than those in disgaea 5. and it does not matter since disgaea rpg point out dimension slash requires 99% universe level to even use.

for 3-A: They scale to big bang since that is power of the skill has and is accepted as, it is only gameplay that does not let things like monster classes use weapon skills. and this is back by the fact they can learn from the master apprentice system which is talked about in game by characters, and from scrolls. which is why they have access to all the generic skills, and evilities. As well the 3-A rating is not from just the name but from the flavor text of disgaea d2 backing that claim of the name.

2-A: So with this Alaxander is only a self proclaimed rival to Zetta. As well in disgaea D2 Laharl was able to fight Zetta who was even impressed by his power. as for the bad ending unlike others where there was a random power boost given to characters like Mao. Alaxander did this under his own power as a god of destruction. this is backed by niike from Witch and the hundred knight where it was able to suppress the infinite multiverse, down to 8 million before it was sealed. as well in disgaea rpg we find just a fragment of Overlord baal's power is able power a prinny bomb that is started to be able to destroy all worlds. so a fragment of baal can destroy the 2-A multiverse.

For fear the great it was at first meant to be planet level with the base amount of energy needed to trigger it. but as shown in disgaea 4 with the energy Asagi was outputting was effecting more then 1 space time. shown by the fact that it was effecting one then 1 netherworld, human world, that required dimensional gateways to get too. which are needed to go to other space times. shown by world of disgaea book. while it only covers disgaea 1's netherworld, human world, and calestia . it is stated that each are there own pocket of space time. as well to back up more in the mobile game where she won, where both the hundred knight, and Metallia where unable to escape when they can freely travel the multiverse at will.

as for pronouns stuff many of them say they for ease of adding generic verse wide powers. that everyone can get.
 
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Are there no supporters currently working on the verse? I am not knowledgeable so I can't say whether outright nuking it is a good idea. I would prefer if the profiles can just be made better with the help of CRTs, but if that is not something anybody is looking to do, then I don't know. Nuking it should be the last option.
 
there are supporters working on the verse. just because QuasiYuri thinks the pages are bad does not mean that they are. most of the arguments come from barely even knowing the verse. QuasiYuri even admit to have only played a very small amount of the games revolving amount said verse.

Most of the complaints come from a lack for understanding of how the verse works.
As well most of this stuff have been accepted by staff for a long time. here, here, here, here, here, here, and here
 
I don't have time to answer Dragonstitch's rebutal rn, but there's already more than one "it's like that" without directly countering the proof or arguments themselves (mainly the tier 3 rebutals or most keys n scaling stuff).
 
for the scaling things not matching plot are irrelevant. since Disgaea 2 we know characters power are limited while the story is ongoing. but this is not the case with post game. and we see in the The Guided Fate Paradox that if you break what is intended for your story that you get narratively erased. which we never see happen to other characters while showing feats higher than the story limits them in the main plots.

For laharl: His disgaea d2 feat is used as even the fodder of his netherworld would not see it as an impressive feat. these are the same fodder he fought in disgaea 1. As well the late game has lamington as laharl in Disgea d2 is 2-A all the way through considering he beat Baal in disgaea 1. lamington also being on par with the other disgaea 5 characters who fought baal for over a year strait in disgaea RPG.

Hero Prinny: this is not some random Prinny with a scarf. claiming this is pure downplay. if it was a normal prinny it would not be able to beat, Baal, Prinny Baal, Prinny Laharl (who killed lamington another 2-A scaling to characters that fought Baal for over a year), Asagi who fought tome zetta, baal, the disgaea 5 cast, the unlosing ranger (they fought 16 times), who beat Valvoga who can fight Tome Zetta, and dark death evil man who's proto type matched baal in power, Pram who again matches Tome Zetta, could fight Killia, and laharl, Etna in the first game, Flonne, Overlord Priere who even when a human can fight baal, nearly beat Killia but ran out of energy before doing so.

So in his games the hero prinny beat 7 characters that have 2-A scaling. unless you are wanting to claim they are all prinny level.

As well there is nothing from NIS saying the post game, DLC, or bonus content is not canon. heck Laharl's father in his disgaea 4 appearance shows up at the end of chapter 1 of disgaea RPG. Which backs up the idea that the DLC is not only canon, but are valid to use.

as well Zetta's justification needs changed. as he is clearly no longer the strongest Overlord in the verse. seeing as characters like Killia took both Zetta and Pram to beat.

Edit: Also the title of strongest overlord really means nothing considering the title is thrown around so much. like Mao, Mao's dad, Zetta, Ivar, and main cast of disgaea 5, Priere. all of these characters have been given the title at some point in the verse.

So again this boils down to you only having a limited understanding of the verse, it's mechanics, and lore.
 
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As well there is the info on the prinny bomb. and the fact that while Gorden, Thursday, Jennifer, Kurtis, Almaz, and Sapphire where clearly the negative energy making the prinny bomb having the power to wipe out the multiverse. a part of Baal making a makeshift Prinny Baal was considered stronger than anything they have come across at that point. meaning it should be stronger than the negative energy making the bomb work.

So there is a flat out plot related 2-A, on top of the plot related 2-A from fear the great, and Niike. so that is three 2-A feats that have nothing to do with Alaxander's bad ending.

for tier 3. we have
3-C: flora beast making a pocket realty with a galaxy in disgaea 4, and d2, Sea angel blows up a galaxy, Base dark death evil man blows up a galaxy, Disgaea 5 galaxy comet compresses a galaxy into an arrow and firing it, disgaea 6 big bang is at least galaxy level
3-B: Disgaea 5 omega star, Disgaea RPG dimension slash
3-A: disgaea d2 big bang, there a a few for other versions of dimension slash which I am trying to find.

so that right there is at least 9 tier 3 feats.


for Lifting strength:

Class P: Throws a spear made of many asteroids, Laharl's meteor pulling

Class E: usalia throws a Prinny calced at 7.2924891E+21 KG

Class Z: moving the moon, moving a spear that has assimilated a moon

Pre-Steller: pulled back an arrow with such force that is pulls several planets behind it, liezerota dark pulling several planets in at the same time, terra star digara 4,

At least Pre-Steller: Red magnus growing larger than a star and swatting multiple planets

Galactic: Disgaea 5 galaxy comet compresses a galaxy into an arrow and firing it.
 
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Small thing here, I disagree with nuking but would prefer a revision. But
Wrong cocytus description.

throught the series the skills have different descriptions and animation.
The one that mentions absolute Zero is Disgaea D2’s. It’s hard to find screen shots of the skill descriptions however so It’ll take me a bit of digging to find it.
also Big bang is Universal agin for Disgaea D2’s portrayal. Which is stated to go back in space and time and rock the universe again and go so far out it turns into black void.


this blog a long time ago explained the upgrades.
 
Small thing here, I disagree with nuking but would prefer a revision. But
Wrong cocytus description.

throught the series the skills have different descriptions and animation.
The one that mentions absolute Zero is Disgaea D2’s. It’s hard to find screen shots of the skill descriptions however so It’ll take me a bit of digging to find it.
also Big bang is Universal agin for Disgaea D2’s portrayal. Which is stated to go back in space and time and rock the universe again and go so far out it turns into black void.


this blog a long time ago explained the upgrades.
Here is the text for the disgaea d2's description. it flat out says it makes things freeze in absolute Zero conditions.
something that also helps Disgaea D2's big bang being Universal is the fact we see on scene a big crunch event take place when the skill is used.
 
Srry for the wait. Had stuff to take care of. Some of the feats and explanations posted made me reconsider stuff, but
for the scaling things not matching plot are irrelevant. since Disgaea 2 we know characters power are limited while the story is ongoing. but this is not the case with post game. and we see in the The Guided Fate Paradox that if you break what is intended for your story that you get narratively erased. which we never see happen to other characters while showing feats higher than the story limits them in the main plots.
Laharl's comment is just him having a regular bs excuse as to why he's not the main character tho. It's even commented on as "fuzzy logic".

Guided Fate Paradox seems more specific tho, since otherwise bad ends wouldn't be able to exist and characters would get erased all the time during them.
For laharl: His disgaea d2 feat is used as even the fodder of his netherworld would not see it as an impressive feat. these are the same fodder he fought in disgaea 1. As well the late game has lamington as laharl in Disgea d2 is 2-A all the way through considering he beat Baal in disgaea 1. lamington also being on par with the other disgaea 5 characters who fought baal for over a year strait in disgaea RPG.
Problem is that it's considered considerable hardwork for Laharl, who still has trouble even against his dad's retainers.

Defeating Baal in D1 is an out-of-story thing that definitely didn't carry on in DD2, since otherwise Laharl's would still have the title you inherit from killing the guy.

Lamington would be the only good thing. But DD2 Laharl>D1 Laharl and he litteraly couldn't defeat someone with the power of a single netherworld without Etna's true power, meaning the scaling here is basically flawed.
Hero Prinny: this is not some random Prinny with a scarf. claiming this is pure downplay. if it was a normal prinny it would not be able to beat, Baal, Prinny Baal, Prinny Laharl (who killed lamington another 2-A scaling to characters that fought Baal for over a year), Asagi who fought tome zetta, baal, the disgaea 5 cast, the unlosing ranger (they fought 16 times), who beat Valvoga who can fight Tome Zetta, and dark death evil man who's proto type matched baal in power, Pram who again matches Tome Zetta, could fight Killia, and laharl, Etna in the first game, Flonne, Overlord Priere who even when a human can fight baal, nearly beat Killia but ran out of energy before doing so.

So in his games the hero prinny beat 7 characters that have 2-A scaling. unless you are wanting to claim they are all prinny level.
That's the entire plot of the two games. That's like saying that Flonne isn't an angel and Laharl isn't a demon.

Both game's climax flat out say that they are below a Demon Lord, and Prinnies tell you the whole game about how your prinny team keep dying, how you all are fodder, and how you just give the scarf to the next one.

Besides Asagi being unreliable because of never being the same character (as revealed in D5); all of the characters you are mentionning comes from bonus stuff, not the actual plot of each games.
They are incomparable to the punny demons against which our prinny team canonically struggled.

Your logic for "the game lied to us about them being ordinary prinnies from the very beginning" is just a bunch of scaling based on "bonus should be taken as fully canon events regardless of whether they go against the story".
As well there is nothing from NIS saying the post game, DLC, or bonus content is not canon. heck Laharl's father in his disgaea 4 appearance shows up at the end of chapter 1 of disgaea RPG. Which backs up the idea that the DLC is not only canon, but are valid to use.
The reverse would be more accurate. DLC and stuff that heavily contradict what's established in the entire plot shouldn't be above the actual game.
as well Zetta's justification needs changed. as he is clearly no longer the strongest Overlord in the verse. seeing as characters like Killia took both Zetta and Pram to beat.
Edit: Also the title of strongest overlord really means nothing considering the title is thrown around so much. like Mao, Mao's dad, Zetta, Ivar, and main cast of disgaea 5, Priere. all of these characters have been given the title at some point in the verse.
Yes.
As well there is the info on the prinny bomb. and the fact that while Gorden, Thursday, Jennifer, Kurtis, Almaz, and Sapphire where clearly the negative energy making the prinny bomb having the power to wipe out the multiverse. a part of Baal making a makeshift Prinny Baal was considered stronger than anything they have come across at that point. meaning it should be stronger than the negative energy making the bomb work.
So there is a flat out plot related 2-A, on top of the plot related 2-A from fear the great, and Niike. so that is three 2-A feats that have nothing to do with Alaxander's bad ending.
Prinny Bomb is legit 2-A. However Prinny Baal is litteraly contributing to the bomb, and it's still seen as THE threat when he is encountered, so scaling him above himself + others energies doesn't make sense.

Regarding Fear the Great, I explained how D4's postgame keeps treating it as universal instead of 2-A.
for tier 3. we have
3-C: flora beast making a pocket realty with a galaxy in disgaea 4, and d2, Sea angel blows up a galaxy, Base dark death evil man blows up a galaxy, Disgaea 5 galaxy comet compresses a galaxy into an arrow and firing it, disgaea 6 big bang is at least galaxy level
3-B: Disgaea 5 omega star, Disgaea RPG dimension slash
3-A: disgaea d2 big bang, there a a few for other versions of dimension slash which I am trying to find.
Then these should be the reasons for 3-B/3-C. Omega Star is litteraly shown to be the size of a planet once the arms get close up.

Also I find odd to use a single depiction of Big Bang that is later shown to be far weaker in others games, or flat out fake in D5. Especially when stuff like universal destruction is above the final boss of the game.
Same as before, some of these feats could clearly be put in the AP section.

for 3-B: the galaxies are clearly in the robot. the attack starts with zooming out from the orb in the robot you will need to bring proof outside of "I don't think it is". as well disgaea 5 is before the other games meaning it should be a viable summon as well demon post diagaea 5 are stronger than those in disgaea 5. and it does not matter since disgaea rpg point out dimension slash requires 99% universe level to even use.
Explained above.
for 3-A: They scale to big bang since that is power of the skill has and is accepted as, it is only gameplay that does not let things like monster classes use weapon skills. and this is back by the fact they can learn from the master apprentice system which is talked about in game by characters, and from scrolls. which is why they have access to all the generic skills, and evilities. As well the 3-A rating is not from just the name but from the flavor text of disgaea d2 backing that claim of the name.
The fact that monsters can't use weapons skills is just canon info across all the games.
2-A: So with this Alaxander is only a self proclaimed rival to Zetta. As well in disgaea D2 Laharl was able to fight Zetta who was even impressed by his power. as for the bad ending unlike others where there was a random power boost given to characters like Mao. Alaxander did this under his own power as a god of destruction. this is backed by niike from Witch and the hundred knight where it was able to suppress the infinite multiverse, down to 8 million before it was sealed. as well in disgaea rpg we find just a fragment of Overlord baal's power is able power a prinny bomb that is started to be able to destroy all worlds. so a fragment of baal can destroy the 2-A multiverse.
Then him being his rival should be removed.
No problem with Niike's feat, but it should be on the profiles in that case.
For fear the great it was at first meant to be planet level with the base amount of energy needed to trigger it. but as shown in disgaea 4 with the energy Asagi was outputting was effecting more then 1 space time. shown by the fact that it was effecting one then 1 netherworld, human world, that required dimensional gateways to get too. which are needed to go to other space times. shown by world of disgaea book. while it only covers disgaea 1's netherworld, human world, and calestia . it is stated that each are there own pocket of space time. as well to back up more in the mobile game where she won, where both the hundred knight, and Metallia where unable to escape when they can freely travel the multiverse at will.
Explained above. Also world of disagea's link doesn't work.
 
Laharl's comment is just him having a regular bs excuse as to why he's not the main character tho. It's even commented on as "fuzzy logic".

Guided Fate Paradox seems more specific tho, since otherwise bad ends wouldn't be able to exist and characters would get erased all the time during them.
But nothing there proves him wrong. As well Laharl has 4th wall breaking while they do not.
Here is the thing we have other feats for 2-A that do not involve bad endings. Characters can scale to niike through Zed. Considering the God of destruction from D6 is the strongest on record (Placing it above Niike). Characters like Laharl, Enta, and Flonne could fight Zed.
Problem is that it's considered considerable hardwork for Laharl, who still has trouble even against his dad's retainers.

Defeating Baal in D1 is an out-of-story thing that definitely didn't carry on in DD2, since otherwise Laharl's would still have the title you inherit from killing the guy.

Lamington would be the only good thing. But DD2 Laharl>D1 Laharl and he litteraly couldn't defeat someone with the power of a single netherworld without Etna's true power, meaning the scaling here is basically flawed.
What you are even talking about? Laharl kicked the every loving crap out of his father's retainers to the point that they hired mercs to fight for them.

what the hell "Baal is out of story" what are you on about? Him fighting baal is referenced constantly in the verse. even disgaea d2 flat out states that laharl's fight happened.

So are you going to ignore that the artifact of absolute death as actively draining their power the whole time? Again you are locking yourself to the main -plot only and actively ignoring everything else that shown.

Let see here 2-As Laharl has fought. Baal, Baal again, Lamington, Tome zetta, Alaxander, Pram, the disgaea 5 characters, Zed, Renya Kagurazaka
So that alone is at least 9 points of having 2-A scaling. and you are wanting to ignore all of those.
The reverse would be more accurate. DLC and stuff that heavily contradict what's established in the entire plot shouldn't be above the actual game.

So you are wanting to just ignore everything single dlc and post game event do to it not matching the main plot? ignoring that these show a more consistent level of power than any of the main plots. there is nothing from the company stating the DLC in non canon, and DLC is events are even referenced. so this is " it is not canon since I say so"

Edit: As well if we have it your way and we disregard all dlc and post game events we would have to also disregard Almaz, and Sapphire marriage which is something contently brought up in appearances. as well the baal fight in that game. even though it is a direct story continuation from the main plot.

That's the entire plot of the two games. That's like saying that Flonne isn't an angel and Laharl isn't a demon.

Both game's climax flat out say that they are below a Demon Lord, and Prinnies tell you the whole game about how your prinny team keep dying, how you all are fodder, and how you just give the scarf to the next one.

Besides Asagi being unreliable because of never being the same character (as revealed in D5); all of the characters you are mentionning comes from bonus stuff, not the actual plot of each games.
They are incomparable to the punny demons against which our prinny team canonically struggled.
and your logic is "We should disregard theses events do to a few statements from the main story contradicting them"
also you have nothing backing these events not being canon in the first place.

The fact that monsters can't use weapons skills is just canon info across all the games.
Okay show me where this is stated. Moster classes can still learn the skills, as wwell look at this this is a nekomata a moster class and what is that? she can use weapon skills Also here is a grown up usalia a monster class character and again she can use weapon skills. So that is headcannon. As well they can still learn omega, terra, and petta level spells which are the same tier and some even higher as things like dimension slash, and big bang. As well you want to ignore the universal energy system of mana power which is what they use for the attacks.

Prinny Bomb is legit 2-A. However Prinny Baal is litteraly contributing to the bomb, and it's still seen as THE threat when he is encountered, so scaling him above himself + others energies doesn't make sense.

Regarding Fear the Great, I explained how D4's postgame keeps treating it as universal instead of 2-A.
so fear the great is only universal when it effected multiple space time continuums? Okay.

As well he is still considered the most powerful thing there and they already have come across the negative energy and where fighting it. they even took him as the bigger threat. as he as make up for the negative energy that they displacing.

Then him being his rival should be removed.
No problem with Niike's feat, but it should be on the profiles in that case.
This i agree with.

I have been trying to get witch and the hundred knight pages made. it is just hard to get feats for the early in mid game down
 
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But nothing there proves him wrong. As well Laharl has 4th wall breaking while they do not.
Here is the thing we have other feats for 2-A that do not involve bad endings. Characters can scale to niike through Zed. Considering the God of destruction from D6 is the strongest on record (Placing it above Niike). Characters like Laharl, Enta, and Flonne could fight Zed.
As far as I recall we get 4th Wall Breaking in D2 as well. I didn't 100% it yet, but I did a good part of this one very recently.
What you are even talking about? Laharl kicked the every loving crapout of his father's retainers,, to the point that they hired mercs to fight for them.

what the hell "Baal is out of story" what are you on about? Him fighting baal is referenced constantly in the verse. even disgaea d2 flat out states that laharl's fight happened.

So are you going to ignore that the artifact of absolute death as actively draining their power the whole time? Again you are locking yourself to the main -plot only and actively ignoring everything else that shown.
This was far from a stomp. Barbara is only hired later in the game, while the only rebellious retainers held their own against Laharl.

Referenced in another Baal bonus. If Baal's defeat acknowledged in D1/DD2's plot, then why does Laharl not have the class he unlocks from beating him?

Are you implying that the artifact drained 2-A power yet still needed a single netherworld? And yeah, I do base myself on the story and not on bonuses to get an accurate depiction of characters.
So you are wanting to just ignore everything single dlc and post game event do to it not matching the main plot? ignoring that these show a more consistent level of power than any of the main plots. there is nothing from the company stating the DLC in non canon, and DLC is events are even referenced. so this is " it is not canon since I say so"
The burden of proof is on you, not me. If we follow DLC logic, then Laharl is in more than 10 parties at the same time, but never actually travel with them. Or Darkdeath Evilman had super incredible dimensional adventures despite its fight in ZHP being its first use.

Also the "consistency" you talk about is based on scaling everyone to everyone and call it a day. I don't think deciding that the writers are big fat liar is how consistency work. Otherwise games like Fire Emblem would just use their DLCs and scale all their characters to each others because there's 2/4 who actually are canon.
Okay show me where this is stated. Moster classes can still learn the skills, as ell look at this this is a nekomata a moster class and what is that? she can use weapon skills Also here is a grown up usalia a monster class character and again she can use weapon skills. So that is headcannon. As well they can still learn omega, terra, and petta level spells which are the same tier and some even higher as things like demotion slash, and big bang. As well you want to ignore the universal energy system of mana power which is what they use for the attacks.
Future Usalia is classified as humanoid in the page you sent.
so fear the great is only universal when it effected multiple space time continuums? Okay.
Already explained and repeated during the postgame.
As well he is still considered the most powerful thing there and they already have come across the negative energy and where fighting it. they even took him as the bigger threat. as he as make up for the negative energy that they dissiplacing.
Don't understand your last sentence.
 
The burden of proof is on you, not me. If we follow DLC logic, then Laharl is in more than 10 parties at the same time, but never actually travel with them. Or Darkdeath Evilman had super incredible dimensional adventures despite its fight in ZHP being its first use.

Also the "consistency" you talk about is based on scaling everyone to everyone and call it a day. I don't think deciding that the writers are big fat liar is how consistency work. Otherwise games like Fire Emblem would just use their DLCs and scale all their characters to each others because there's 2/4 who actually are canon.
burden of proof is on you. the site accepts DLC and post game as canon. you need to bring proof that they aren't. that is not "i don't think so"
Future Usalia is classified as humanoid in the page you sent.
Usalia lore wise is a monster class character as well from lore her species is a monster race exclusively. so this flat out proves that monster races can use weapon skills if thy want to. even chacha who is just a nekomata in a costume is able to use weapon skills. again showing lore wise monster classes/races can use them if they want to. but gameplay wise they can't.

This was far from a stomp. Barbara is only hired later in the game, while the only rebellious retainers held their own against Laharl.

Referenced in another Baal bonus. If Baal's defeat acknowledged in D1/DD2's plot, then why does Laharl not have the class he unlocks from beating him?

Are you implying that the artifact drained 2-A power yet still needed a single netherworld? And yeah, I do base myself on the story and not on bonuses to get an accurate depiction of characters.
He was never taking them as a threat. and they were even panicking after the fight.

Edit: Also looking it up they hired barbra in chapter 3 after laharl kicked Grosso ass in chapter 1. and even in chapter 1 laharl did not take him as a threat in the slightest. heck even in disgaea d2 he threatens to be up Seraph Lamington again. Also the etna dairy that King Krichevskoy died stopping an invasion. which we know is overlord Baal. heck they are aware it is baal, something that requires Laharl doing the baal fight to even know.

the baal fight is referenced in the damn post game fight with him, after his fight with tome zetta, and in disgaea 3.

and yes you are ignoring every post game, and DLC piece of story to downplay the verse. by your logic fuka and desco show is not canon, ms. Raspberyl's story is non canon (even though that was the story Arch Angel Flonne first shows up), Baal was not canon until disgaea RPG (Even though he has shown up in many games at that point.), hell according to your logic nether battle tournament King Krichevskoy is non canon and is not real even though he shows up in disgaea RPG. flat out your refusal to even acknowledge events that are clearly direct continuation of the main plot, or takes place after the main plot is just absurd.

as well that can easily be pis considering Laharl has multiple showings of fighting people way above 1 netherworld's worth of power even in disgaea d2.

As well for fear the great to even effect multiple netherworlds like it did it would need to effect multiple spacetimes. which is not universe level that would be at least low multiverse level going by the verse's own cosmology.
 
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Coming from someone who's completed every Disgaea game and postgame aside from 2 and 3 because it was boring, and Makai Kingdom, I disagree with removing the verse. The profiles definitely could use minor touchups and better phrasing however.

A lot of the scaling really does circle around in Nipponverse, since the company that makes it is pretty much making constant canon cameos through DLC and postgames.

In fact, you could have made an argument in the past that the characters aren't truly relative between games, but now the cast of Disgaea 1 thru 5 have all interacted and fought together in Disgaea RPG.

And while I'm not completely caught up with it, Baal is implied to be the last boss, so they all would scale to Baal undoubtably should that happen. Not only that, but Etna mentions Baal by name, further cementing that those events in Disgaea 1 and subsequent sequels DID happen.
 
burden of proof is on you. the site accepts DLC and post game as canon. you need to bring proof that they aren't. that is not "i don't think so"
Already gave two reasons you just ignored.
Usalia lore wise is a monster class character as well from lore her species is a monster race exclusively. so this flat out proves that monster races can use weapon skills if thy want to. even chacha who is just a nekomata in a costume is able to use weapon skills. again showing lore wise monster classes/races can use them if they want to. but gameplay wise they can't.
Future Usalia is canonically classed as humanoid. I'm not making the rules, any NPC at the beginning of the game will tell you that dudes classified as monster can't use weapons.
He was never taking them as a threat. and they were even panicking after the fight.

Edit: Also looking it up they hired barbra in chapter 3 after laharl kicked Grosso ass in chapter 1. and even in chapter 1 laharl did not take him as a threat in the slightest. heck even in disgaea d2 he threatens to be up Seraph Lamington again. Also the etna dairy that King Krichevskoy died stopping an invasion. which we know is overlord Baal. heck they are aware it is baal, something that requires Laharl doing the baal fight to even know.

the baal fight is referenced in the damn post game fight with him, after his fight with tome zetta, and in disgaea 3.
In postgame. That's my entire point.
and yes you are ignoring every post game, and DLC piece of story to downplay the verse. by your logic fuka and desco show is not canon, ms. Raspberyl's story is non canon (even though that was the story Arch Angel Flonne first shows up), Baal was not canon until disgaea RPG (Even though he has shown up in many games at that point.), hell according to your logic nether battle tournament King Krichevskoy is non canon and is not real even though he shows up in disgaea RPG. flat out your refusal to even acknowledge events that are clearly direct continuation of the main plot, or takes place after the main plot is just absurd.
I didn't say everything is non-canon. But more than one create direct contradiction in story and lore.
as well that can easily be pis considering Laharl has multiple showings of fighting people way above 1 netherworld's worth of power even in disgaea d2.
During the story ? Who?
Lamington only come from scaling and is in D1, and everyone else was p much powerless against the netherworld going wild.
As well for fear the great to even effect multiple netherworlds like it did it would need to effect multiple spacetimes. which is not universe level that would be at least low multiverse level going by the verse's own cosmology.
Fear the Great just teleported those from others Netherworld to D4's, which is range and not AP, which is repeated as Universal even after bringing the others.
 
In fact, you could have made an argument in the past that the characters aren't truly relative between games, but now the cast of Disgaea 1 thru 5 have all interacted and fought together in Disgaea RPG.
in JP disgaea 6's cast joined up with them, and at this point everyone has super reincarnation. as well the la pucelle, and Makai Kingdom have shown up.
 
Fear the Great just teleported those from others Netherworld to D4's, which is range and not AP, which is repeated as Universal even after bringing the others.it is stated as such.
Fear the great is stated to be destroying everything. so destroying at least the human world, 3 netherworlds, and calestia. that is 5 space times being destroyed. By the very statements of what fear the great is doing, by the narrator not the in verse characters. would be low multiverse level at minimum.
Future Usalia is canonically classed as humanoid. I'm not making the rules, any NPC at the beginning of the game will tell you that dudes classified as monster can't use weapons.
Usalia canonical is from a race that are only monster classes. So you are going to tell me she magically went from a monster class only race to humanoid class in a few years. and you say they can't but you ignore lore showing they can and ignore in lore characters proving your wrong seeing how you completely ignored ChaCha who I will link again. canonical she is just a nekomata a monster class in a costume there is nothing making her different from a normal nekomata but she is able to use weapon skills. again showing monster classes being unable to use weapon skills is most likely a gameplay only thing.

hell in dsgaea 6 monsters can even use normal weapons the requirement to use weapon skills. but can't do to them limiting gameplay for the first 3d disgaea game.

So again to push your idea you are wanting to stick to plot and lore but also go out of your way to ignore it.
I didn't say everything is non-canon. But more than one create direct contradiction in story and lore.
But again you are also saying that they should be ignored since to does not follow the down played scaling you want. there's events happened you can't just ignore them do to you not liking them. Hell for nether battle tournament to happen as of disgaea 4 Vita/Complete the definitive versions of the game. in canon the characters have to go through all the post game and DLC story before it to canonically happen. so by your logic all of that never happened. there for it does not exist.

Already gave two reasons you just ignored.
You 2 "reasons" are " They contradict main story" and " I said so" you give no valid reason. you have to go out of your way to ignore in lore info to even get to that point and again the DLC has a more consistent showing of power. than the main plots ever did.

like the fact you want to ignore the hero prinny fighting at least 9 god damn overlord class characters. which debunks the whole "a normal prinny" thing from the main plot. hell looking at the bosses and enemies of the prinny games. if the hero prinny would not be able to beat anything in the game considering Prinnies are fodder to even the fodder tier demons in canon.

In postgame. That's my entire point.
Disgaea RPGs MAIN PLOT has laharl saying info that would only know if disgaea 1 baal fight happened. Flat out proving the fight happened and is viable for scaling! You just want to just ignore that since it does not fit your downplay.
 
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you know what I'm done. I know no amount of proof put right in your face is going to change your mind. So I am not going to bother anymore. do whatever you want since nothing I say will change anything. and even if this gets rejected I get the feeling you would just do it again anyway.

So congrats you win.
 
you know what I'm done. I know no amount of proof put right in your face is going to change your mind. So I am not going to bother anymore. do whatever you want since nothing I say will change anything. and even if this gets rejected I get the feeling you would just do it again anyway.

So congrats you win.
I litteraly conceded a lot already and was going to conced on tiering and stuff since you flat out have shown to ignore some of my arguments (the "two reasons for why I say DLC aren't all canon" litteraly aren't the ones you claimed to be) and because I know better than sticking to a single view if it prevents to actually correct the profiles.

But it seems that you think that stuff like using "early/mid/late game" for a character in a shit ton of games is somehow a good thing and that barebone descriptions with an error in the very name of the attack supposed to justify one's tier are fine and not worth debatting.

Having the characters at a certain tier and with as much stuff as possible without properly referencing everything and correcting it is sooo much more important after all.
 
But it seems that you think that stuff like using "early/mid/late game" for a character in a shit ton of games is somehow a good thing and that barebone descriptions with an error in the very name of the attack supposed to justify one's tier are fine and not worth debatting.
If we're going to remove early/mid/late for Laharl and other MCs/supporting cast, then I have some possible suggestions?

Since in NIS games the postgame content is canon, why don't we make a key for their main story feats, and one for the postgames and appearances going forward?

That way the 1st key is only their powers, abilities, and feats from their first appearance, while the 2nd key is where we can put more focus on their abilities and scaling against Baal, in postgame content, and within later titles.

Some characters like Valvatorez might need an extra key because of his depowered state and the like, but otherwise it could maybe work.

And maybe make a separate key for Disgaea RPG stats too? I say this since every single character has teamed up and fought one another/together in that one, which makes it chronologically the furthest in the timeline. Plus it's also the game with the most explicit scaling between characters.

Having the characters at a certain tier and with as much stuff as possible without properly referencing everything and correcting it is sooo much more important after all.
Cleaning up the profiles could take work, but completely removing them instead of separating and organizing them is what I'm vehemently against. A lot of progress would be lost that way.
 
As someone who used to help out when possible and is really no longer going to be a productive member of the site, let me just say this.

Nuking the verse should not even be an option. Just work things out with the supporters. Did you contact them? Ask for clarification or anything? Instead of this, you and the supporters could have worked on revising the verse as there is a discussion thread for Nipponverse, and then made a thread listing all the changes and fixes.

Regardless, just work shit out instead of worrying about nuking an entire verse when there are blatant supporters active on the site that you could ask. That's all I have to say.
 
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