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I was going to hold off on this until the Tier 2 CRT was finished since this would've likely been heavily affected by it, but it seems like it's been put on hold, so we'll get to that when it comes.
So earlier crts have attempted to address the issue with Dissidia and it's validity for scaling. There have been 2 main points for this.
I'll be addressing the 2 points with info found in the dissidia series and an upgrade/scaling verification for the god tiers, along with some miscellaneous stuff but the main focus is Dissidia.
The Gods Pawns
The basis of Dissidia is that 2 gods summon various FF characters from different games to fight each other in an eternal cycle overseen by Shinryu and The Disembodied Voice of a War Criminal (Cid). Now the main problem is the power difference between the characters making this extremely dubious ranging from High 6-A to Low 2-C. The reason why say Noctis isn't breaking….everything attacking say Ultimecia is simple: It's not their power they're using to fight, but the Gods. Cosmos/Materia and Chaos/Spiritus impart their power onto the warriors to fight as their representatives, it's not their own, 2 notable examples being in Dissidia and 012.
In Dissidia it's revealed that it's only thanks to the Warriors of Cosmos attaining their crystals that they aren't fading away, as the crystals hold Cosmos' power, as if Cosmos is killed, their power source is gone and thus they fade as well, they were also explicitly needed in order to defeat Chaos.
While in Duodecim several characters are chosen to be scouted for the next cycle like Cloud and Terra, the most blatant one is in order to prevent Tidus from dying
Jecht gives his power to Tidus, this was stated to leave him an empty husk. The Emperor promptly takes Jecht and has Chaos fill him with his essence instead, securing him as a Warrior of Chaos for the next cycle.
EDIT: The scans aren't loading so I'll just link this blog that has some of the scans above https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Hst_master/Dissdia_Stuff
And cutscene regarding Jecht
Alongside the "Light" found within each of the Warriors of Spiritus and Materia signifying their being empowered by them and with the ability to close Torisions that if left unchecked would have not only destroyed the respite world but the other FF worlds as well.
Thus they aren't fighting on their own power. They're on an equal playing field cuz they all have the same power source, which is whatever God that's sponsoring them.
In the respite world the warriors' willpower equates to actual power, from Golbez manifesting the red wings fleet to Kuja maintaining an entire dimension after a Planesgorger had drained it via sheer willpower.
The Gods Power and The Interdimensional Dragon
Next there's the issue with the God Tiers current tiers. Currently they're scaled off of being > The Cast, this includes Squall, Ultimecia, and Lightning who are all Low 2-C, alongside scaling above the Planesgorgers, Shinryu Larvae that can even absorb the Crystal of the World of Light's power for itself that the cast is only comparable to. Thus they should be upgraded from that alone but they also have their own feat to use on top of that scaling, so that they aren't solely relying on upscaling from the Cast. In Dissidia Opera Omnia, Spiritus and Materia create the Land of Respite, a place where those exhausted of fighting can rest. This world is split into 3 parts, The World of Light, which is stated to be a Universe, the Interlude World which contains the crystal that maintains the World of Light and The World of Darkness which is parallel to The World of Light, which would be 2-C. Alongside these is the recreation of World B while also creating dimensions containing worlds based off of each FF reps World and are only accessible via portal, of which the Planesgorgers were devouring although the size of these dimensions are debatable, whether they just contain up to a 4-A structure or are Low 2-C is up for debate. The Gods and Shinryu should all scale from these feats making them all 2-C for creating at least 2 universes with Shinryu getting a potentially higher, due to a Statement by Sephiroth of him getting out into the Multiverse and devouring the other worlds if he wasn't beaten right then and there. I'll get on the casts scaling…..later.
The Wayward Warriors
This is gonna be some spoilers for several games, fair warning.
The other reason the validity of the scaling is questioned is timeline placement: Characters who should have no proper way to be involved with the cycles or are dead being alive and well to participate. The reason being is they're manikins, initially anyway, Manikins are Cid's attempts to have bodies prepared for the warriors consciousness Cosmos and Chaos were calling from their worlds to fight, the successful ones being most of the main cast, the defects being the manikins. This is later retconned in 012 and Opera Omnia but is still relevant in showing why timeline placement isn't an issue pre DFFOO, as the only ones truly considered there in flesh and blood are implied to be Shantotto and Gabranth. It's also the reason why they all have cases of amnesia about their homeworlds, for example Tidus doesn't recognize Yuna or even Jecht initially (He states he only remembered his name at 1st and that he hates him and not his relation until later on), Cloud doesn't recognize Tifa, Bartz despite having Galuf's sword doesn't know who Galuf is but admits it seems familiar to him and Terra doesn't know who she is at all as the cost of purification every cycle messes with their memories.
"Manikins with transplanted memories gain
Cosmos's power. Thereafter confirmed one
may lose its memory but retain its resolve
even though purification.
Failures disposed of near former disposal site.
They transform in likeness to the summoned…"
"Harmony and discord are both created beings.While observing how they acquired pawns tofight in their conflict, I found that a great number of the consciousnesses had drifted to this world from other dimensions. I wondered if I might be able to give those consciousnesses physical form. After countless experiments, finally my testing reached success.The failures were dealed in the Interdimensional Rift.Within the created pawns were some whose faith in themselves wavered--who questioned their very reason for living. It seemed that existence itself was not sufficient incentive. It causes me to wonder...Were those drifting consciousnesses remnants created in the past? Or spirits meant to exist into the future? This is something no one can know."
The other reason is revealed in DFFOO in how they are their end game selves being summoned to this world and the reason their memories and appearances do not match is also explained. Spiritus and Materia summon both living and already dead (mostly dead for Spiritus) warriors to fight for them, in which case they handle each differently. Materia is revealed to manipulate her warriors' memories and thus their appearances as well when they come to the Land of Respite in order to give them a better reason to fight, as having them believe there's a immediate danger to get back to; would make them want to fight harder. They 1st learn of this with the reveal of Dark Manikins, special manikins who house their memories and thus wait for their counterpart to show up and destroy them in which the 1st person to gain their memories back is Hope who remembers the fact he's a grown man and not a kid and is fully aware of the events of the Lightning Saga with the rest of the XIII cast following suit including Lightning. This is several other characters as well, Yuna remembering Paine and the events of X-2, Tidus remembering the events of X, Cecil remembering he and Golbez are siblings, The IX Cast remembering how events went down including Kuja, The Chocobros and Aranea remembering what happened to Noctis, Ace remembering what happened to Class Zero and several more despite some of them not having the appearance to match. And for some, theirs haven't been tampered with at all, such as Paine who does indeed remember the end of X-2, and Machina who out of everyone including even Rem remembers what happened to Class Zero and even laments about it. Meanwhile Spiritus simply tells his Warriors that they died, as he believes the knowledge will motivate them harder, such as how he tells Seymour how Spira and the Guado are doing without him.
Some examples of what I'm talking about are also linked above. This explains why there's no real problem with the timeline placement for each game, they don't have their full sets of memories and their appearances reflect this.
Now there's one man that could be a problem for these points and that's Gilgamesh, but he doesn't really pose that much of an issue, in fact he supports it being canonical as well.
Gilgamesh makes an appearance in Duodecim to fight Bartz, no he's not chosen by either gods, he's purely there by Rift Shenanigans and promptly loses and gets sent back into the rift.
But in FFXIII-2, Gilgamesh makes an appearance and after ditching his guns goes back to using swords; swords that he's found in various FF worlds, most notably his Zantetsuken, which from his words is to be from a nail of Chaos's that he shed and left somewhere, and from the Ultimania implied to be from a Manikin's remains instead. Both prove the point that he's been to World B pre-NT/OO canonically, to even attain the weapon.
This later culminates into him being chosen as a Warrior by Materia after more Rift Shenanigans ends him up in The Respite World and is able to fight alongside everyone, even recognizing several others like Squall, Zidane, and obviously Bartz, even more minor characters like General Leo.
Miscellaneous
Mentioned there would be some other stuff:
"He had grown by then, and more than adequate as
a weapon. The problem was not with his powers.
The problem was he didn't follow military orders.
I was soon detained by emissaries of the state.
The military decided to depend on his "mother,"
figuring he would have to follow my orders.
The child complied...and sealed Omega and the other monsters."
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Cosmos_Reports < The quoted Cosmos Reports
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos_Reports Chaos Reports
TLDR for Dissidia stuff;
Gods and Shinryu should be 2-C. The extent is arguable but the bare Minimum is 3 universes (World B, World of Light + World of Darkness).
Shinryu so far should get a key to separate his other iterations with the events of Dissidia so that not every person who's fought him in a Non-Dissidia game is upgraded from fighting him.
The Cast are all from an end point of their games and their appearances and memories not matching this is due to the Purification Cycle/Gods Influence and don't mess with the scaling of each verse at all as it's not even their own power, I'll address this more at a later date.
So earlier crts have attempted to address the issue with Dissidia and it's validity for scaling. There have been 2 main points for this.
- The characters all scale to one another for no reason.
- Timeline Placement with blatantly dead characters running around.
I'll be addressing the 2 points with info found in the dissidia series and an upgrade/scaling verification for the god tiers, along with some miscellaneous stuff but the main focus is Dissidia.
The Gods Pawns
The basis of Dissidia is that 2 gods summon various FF characters from different games to fight each other in an eternal cycle overseen by Shinryu and The Disembodied Voice of a War Criminal (Cid). Now the main problem is the power difference between the characters making this extremely dubious ranging from High 6-A to Low 2-C. The reason why say Noctis isn't breaking….everything attacking say Ultimecia is simple: It's not their power they're using to fight, but the Gods. Cosmos/Materia and Chaos/Spiritus impart their power onto the warriors to fight as their representatives, it's not their own, 2 notable examples being in Dissidia and 012.
In Dissidia it's revealed that it's only thanks to the Warriors of Cosmos attaining their crystals that they aren't fading away, as the crystals hold Cosmos' power, as if Cosmos is killed, their power source is gone and thus they fade as well, they were also explicitly needed in order to defeat Chaos.
While in Duodecim several characters are chosen to be scouted for the next cycle like Cloud and Terra, the most blatant one is in order to prevent Tidus from dying
Jecht gives his power to Tidus, this was stated to leave him an empty husk. The Emperor promptly takes Jecht and has Chaos fill him with his essence instead, securing him as a Warrior of Chaos for the next cycle.
EDIT: The scans aren't loading so I'll just link this blog that has some of the scans above https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Hst_master/Dissdia_Stuff
And cutscene regarding Jecht
Alongside the "Light" found within each of the Warriors of Spiritus and Materia signifying their being empowered by them and with the ability to close Torisions that if left unchecked would have not only destroyed the respite world but the other FF worlds as well.
Thus they aren't fighting on their own power. They're on an equal playing field cuz they all have the same power source, which is whatever God that's sponsoring them.
In the respite world the warriors' willpower equates to actual power, from Golbez manifesting the red wings fleet to Kuja maintaining an entire dimension after a Planesgorger had drained it via sheer willpower.
The Gods Power and The Interdimensional Dragon
Next there's the issue with the God Tiers current tiers. Currently they're scaled off of being > The Cast, this includes Squall, Ultimecia, and Lightning who are all Low 2-C, alongside scaling above the Planesgorgers, Shinryu Larvae that can even absorb the Crystal of the World of Light's power for itself that the cast is only comparable to. Thus they should be upgraded from that alone but they also have their own feat to use on top of that scaling, so that they aren't solely relying on upscaling from the Cast. In Dissidia Opera Omnia, Spiritus and Materia create the Land of Respite, a place where those exhausted of fighting can rest. This world is split into 3 parts, The World of Light, which is stated to be a Universe, the Interlude World which contains the crystal that maintains the World of Light and The World of Darkness which is parallel to The World of Light, which would be 2-C. Alongside these is the recreation of World B while also creating dimensions containing worlds based off of each FF reps World and are only accessible via portal, of which the Planesgorgers were devouring although the size of these dimensions are debatable, whether they just contain up to a 4-A structure or are Low 2-C is up for debate. The Gods and Shinryu should all scale from these feats making them all 2-C for creating at least 2 universes with Shinryu getting a potentially higher, due to a Statement by Sephiroth of him getting out into the Multiverse and devouring the other worlds if he wasn't beaten right then and there. I'll get on the casts scaling…..later.
The Wayward Warriors
This is gonna be some spoilers for several games, fair warning.
The other reason the validity of the scaling is questioned is timeline placement: Characters who should have no proper way to be involved with the cycles or are dead being alive and well to participate. The reason being is they're manikins, initially anyway, Manikins are Cid's attempts to have bodies prepared for the warriors consciousness Cosmos and Chaos were calling from their worlds to fight, the successful ones being most of the main cast, the defects being the manikins. This is later retconned in 012 and Opera Omnia but is still relevant in showing why timeline placement isn't an issue pre DFFOO, as the only ones truly considered there in flesh and blood are implied to be Shantotto and Gabranth. It's also the reason why they all have cases of amnesia about their homeworlds, for example Tidus doesn't recognize Yuna or even Jecht initially (He states he only remembered his name at 1st and that he hates him and not his relation until later on), Cloud doesn't recognize Tifa, Bartz despite having Galuf's sword doesn't know who Galuf is but admits it seems familiar to him and Terra doesn't know who she is at all as the cost of purification every cycle messes with their memories.
"Manikins with transplanted memories gain
Cosmos's power. Thereafter confirmed one
may lose its memory but retain its resolve
even though purification.
Failures disposed of near former disposal site.
They transform in likeness to the summoned…"
"Harmony and discord are both created beings.While observing how they acquired pawns tofight in their conflict, I found that a great number of the consciousnesses had drifted to this world from other dimensions. I wondered if I might be able to give those consciousnesses physical form. After countless experiments, finally my testing reached success.The failures were dealed in the Interdimensional Rift.Within the created pawns were some whose faith in themselves wavered--who questioned their very reason for living. It seemed that existence itself was not sufficient incentive. It causes me to wonder...Were those drifting consciousnesses remnants created in the past? Or spirits meant to exist into the future? This is something no one can know."
The other reason is revealed in DFFOO in how they are their end game selves being summoned to this world and the reason their memories and appearances do not match is also explained. Spiritus and Materia summon both living and already dead (mostly dead for Spiritus) warriors to fight for them, in which case they handle each differently. Materia is revealed to manipulate her warriors' memories and thus their appearances as well when they come to the Land of Respite in order to give them a better reason to fight, as having them believe there's a immediate danger to get back to; would make them want to fight harder. They 1st learn of this with the reveal of Dark Manikins, special manikins who house their memories and thus wait for their counterpart to show up and destroy them in which the 1st person to gain their memories back is Hope who remembers the fact he's a grown man and not a kid and is fully aware of the events of the Lightning Saga with the rest of the XIII cast following suit including Lightning. This is several other characters as well, Yuna remembering Paine and the events of X-2, Tidus remembering the events of X, Cecil remembering he and Golbez are siblings, The IX Cast remembering how events went down including Kuja, The Chocobros and Aranea remembering what happened to Noctis, Ace remembering what happened to Class Zero and several more despite some of them not having the appearance to match. And for some, theirs haven't been tampered with at all, such as Paine who does indeed remember the end of X-2, and Machina who out of everyone including even Rem remembers what happened to Class Zero and even laments about it. Meanwhile Spiritus simply tells his Warriors that they died, as he believes the knowledge will motivate them harder, such as how he tells Seymour how Spira and the Guado are doing without him.
Some examples of what I'm talking about are also linked above. This explains why there's no real problem with the timeline placement for each game, they don't have their full sets of memories and their appearances reflect this.
Now there's one man that could be a problem for these points and that's Gilgamesh, but he doesn't really pose that much of an issue, in fact he supports it being canonical as well.
Gilgamesh makes an appearance in Duodecim to fight Bartz, no he's not chosen by either gods, he's purely there by Rift Shenanigans and promptly loses and gets sent back into the rift.
But in FFXIII-2, Gilgamesh makes an appearance and after ditching his guns goes back to using swords; swords that he's found in various FF worlds, most notably his Zantetsuken, which from his words is to be from a nail of Chaos's that he shed and left somewhere, and from the Ultimania implied to be from a Manikin's remains instead. Both prove the point that he's been to World B pre-NT/OO canonically, to even attain the weapon.
This later culminates into him being chosen as a Warrior by Materia after more Rift Shenanigans ends him up in The Respite World and is able to fight alongside everyone, even recognizing several others like Squall, Zidane, and obviously Bartz, even more minor characters like General Leo.
Miscellaneous
Mentioned there would be some other stuff:
- Everyone scaling from the Eden feat should be downgraded to 4-A since the calc got redone to that a long time ago.
- Shuyin should have Memory Manipulation for being able to see into the memories of other people and show them his own, Duplication for making copies of people out of memories like he did to make clones of Nooj, Baralai, and Gippal, and Madness Manipulation for being able to drive people insane like he did to the crimson squad and Rikku and Paine. Yuna should likewise gain resistances to Madness Manipulation from this as she was the only one who resisted it.
- Chaos should get sealing for being able to seal away the summons of World A and a Model of Omega when he was young for the military.
"He had grown by then, and more than adequate as
a weapon. The problem was not with his powers.
The problem was he didn't follow military orders.
I was soon detained by emissaries of the state.
The military decided to depend on his "mother,"
figuring he would have to follow my orders.
The child complied...and sealed Omega and the other monsters."
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Cosmos_Reports < The quoted Cosmos Reports
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos_Reports Chaos Reports
- Dissidia Gods should get Memory Manipulation for taking/returning their Warriors memories in Opera Omnia
TLDR for Dissidia stuff;
Gods and Shinryu should be 2-C. The extent is arguable but the bare Minimum is 3 universes (World B, World of Light + World of Darkness).
Shinryu so far should get a key to separate his other iterations with the events of Dissidia so that not every person who's fought him in a Non-Dissidia game is upgraded from fighting him.
The Cast are all from an end point of their games and their appearances and memories not matching this is due to the Purification Cycle/Gods Influence and don't mess with the scaling of each verse at all as it's not even their own power, I'll address this more at a later date.
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