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Ditto vs Smeargle
- Thread starter DontTalkDT
- Start date
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It's actually kind of in the air. As Moody is a thing, the stat boosting becomes random and Struggle is the way to go after that.
Wait.
Ditto has lower health.
Smeargle wins.
Wait.
Ditto has lower health.
Smeargle wins.
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- Thread starter
- #4
What if Ditto undoes its transformation? Its squishy body would be great at absorbing blows.
It could also use stealth tactics!
It could also use stealth tactics!
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Ditto copies Smeargle.
Ditto usually has lower health and Sketch will stop working for it faster, meaning it'll jump to Struggle.
In the end, Smeargle should take this pretty easily.
Ditto usually has lower health and Sketch will stop working for it faster, meaning it'll jump to Struggle.
In the end, Smeargle should take this pretty easily.
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They Would both end up knowing only transform.
Inconclusive.
Inconclusive.
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Wrong.The God Of Procrastination said:
Since Ditto knows Imposter, it will copy Smeargle immediately, meaning it will not even have a chance to use Transform and will only know Sketch, which can't be copied.
Therefore, Smeargle wins via having higher health and being able to spam Sketch longer before resorting to Struggle.
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Sketch only has 1 PP.
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If we're going by game mechanics, it should be noted that:
1. Sketch cannot copy the move Transform.
2. Smeargle's ability, Technician, can also boost the power of the move Struggle.
(Also, according to later generation's game mechanics, IIRC, Struggle's recoil damage is based not on the damage inflicted, but is a fixed 25% of the user's HP, rounded down. So a Pokemon with, for example, 405 HP will survive using 4 Struggles, then faint to the recoil of the 5th.)
But yes, Ditto might have lower stamina. Also, it has a chance of imperfectly copying Smeargle, whatever that entails. And there's the random "decrease one stat, sharply raise another every turn" with Moody.
Regarding PP, yeah. Ditto will transform automatically via Impostor, then whoever moves first (By game mechanics, it's a Speed tie at that point.) runs out of PP first.
Ditto also has the issue of if it laughs (Maybe at what a Failed sketch looks like?), it will likely fail to maintain its Transformation, at which point, Smeargle OHKOs with Struggle due to higher tier.
1. Sketch cannot copy the move Transform.
2. Smeargle's ability, Technician, can also boost the power of the move Struggle.
(Also, according to later generation's game mechanics, IIRC, Struggle's recoil damage is based not on the damage inflicted, but is a fixed 25% of the user's HP, rounded down. So a Pokemon with, for example, 405 HP will survive using 4 Struggles, then faint to the recoil of the 5th.)
But yes, Ditto might have lower stamina. Also, it has a chance of imperfectly copying Smeargle, whatever that entails. And there's the random "decrease one stat, sharply raise another every turn" with Moody.
Regarding PP, yeah. Ditto will transform automatically via Impostor, then whoever moves first (By game mechanics, it's a Speed tie at that point.) runs out of PP first.
Ditto also has the issue of if it laughs (Maybe at what a Failed sketch looks like?), it will likely fail to maintain its Transformation, at which point, Smeargle OHKOs with Struggle due to higher tier.
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Smeargle FRA.
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Keep in mind they don't have to use moves. They can just punch like in MD.
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In such a case, then we have the question of "Do either of them know it's pointless to use Sketch?".(Transform is necessary for Ditto to not get one shot, so it doesn't have this issue, of course.)The real cal howard said:
If one of them does, but not the other, that Pokemon will be able to start attacking sooner. Best case scenario, Smeargle can start attacking while Ditto's Transformation is in progress, assuming Transform takes enough time from start to finish. (Does Metal Powder affect defensive stats mid-transformation, given it only affects Ditto's stats while the species is still Ditto?)
Supposing the Transformation takes time to complete, too, Smeargle may also be affected by Moody longer. Technically, we don't know the outcome, but according to Game Mechanics:
1. Moody will stop boosting a stat once it reaches its maximum of +6.
2. Moody is always a net gain in terms of total stat changes. (-1 to Stat A, +2 to Stat B.)
In this regard, Ditto has a small chance to win IF it rolls better with Moody. (Also Critical Hits, lol.) Although, would Ditto even have Moody start, given it might be a product of emotional state? Does Ditto copy emotional states?
XitSign
He/Him- 3,285
- 2,021
Sketch's limitations have been phased out with newer generations of pokemon. Sketch can copy Transform no problem now, and other moves that used to be 'sketchy' about whether or not Smeargle can copy.
Right now, the only moves Smeargle can't copy are Struggle (not considered a traditional move), Chatter (used to have a unique mic-based gimmick), and one-off attacks for special games like the Shadow Moves from the Gamecube series.
But, I don't think Smeargle's ability to get Transform still changes anything. Ditto's more reliant on its gimmick than Smeargle is to fight effectively. Add that to the fact that Ditto's transformations keep its own HP stat, which would play into how much punishment it can take, and Smeargle will more often than not have the advantage of lasting longer in most senarios. Things like Moody might add a random element into the mix, but considering HOW random it is and both sides would get it via Ditto's transformation, it kinda stops being relevant since the chance for it to help or hurt is equal on both sides.
I vote Smeargle via a better HP stat to, more often than not, outlast the Ditto when it becomes a stalemate of just slapping each other back and forth. Plus Base Smeargle smacks in situations where Ditto fails to transform or reverts for any reason, so those senarios also favor Smeargle.
Right now, the only moves Smeargle can't copy are Struggle (not considered a traditional move), Chatter (used to have a unique mic-based gimmick), and one-off attacks for special games like the Shadow Moves from the Gamecube series.
But, I don't think Smeargle's ability to get Transform still changes anything. Ditto's more reliant on its gimmick than Smeargle is to fight effectively. Add that to the fact that Ditto's transformations keep its own HP stat, which would play into how much punishment it can take, and Smeargle will more often than not have the advantage of lasting longer in most senarios. Things like Moody might add a random element into the mix, but considering HOW random it is and both sides would get it via Ditto's transformation, it kinda stops being relevant since the chance for it to help or hurt is equal on both sides.
I vote Smeargle via a better HP stat to, more often than not, outlast the Ditto when it becomes a stalemate of just slapping each other back and forth. Plus Base Smeargle smacks in situations where Ditto fails to transform or reverts for any reason, so those senarios also favor Smeargle.
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- Thread starter
- #16
Wouldn't have thought that people actually debate this in length...
If I counted right it's 7-0 for Smeargle now... grace, I guess?
If I counted right it's 7-0 for Smeargle now... grace, I guess?
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Incidentally, don't our Pokemon profiles include abilities granted by IQ Groups?
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/IQ#IQ_groups
Smeargle is IQ Group F, Ditto is IQ Group A.
To be comprehensive, let's go over some relevant skills for both sides(The stars are just from the "When Learned" section.):
Ditto
1. Dedicated Traveler Base Skill Prioritizes moving over using attacks or items.
2. Acute Sniffer 50 (☆0.5) Lets you know the number of items on the floor. (I'd presume this means it knows what useable items are available to it in the location. Although, what stuff could it find that's useable?)
3. Survivalist 140 (☆1.5) Restores more Belly stat when eating food. Sometimes avoids getting status changes when eating Grimy Food. (May be useful if it turns into a battle of attrition.)
4. Map Surveyor 580 (☆6) Knows the floor layout. (I'd presume this means Ditto knows the layout of Central Park by being there.)
Smeargle
1. Wary Fighter 180 (☆2) User steps back one tile when it misses a move. (So if Ditto dodges, Smeargle might step back?)
2. Sharpshooter 260 (☆3) Raises critical-hit ratio.
3. Hit-and-Runner 270 (☆3) Sometimes cancels foe's counter-attacks.
Both
1. Item Catcher Base Skill Can catch a Throwing Item and keep it for its own.
2. Item Master Base Skill Can use and throw its held item. (Ditto may be carrying Metal or Swift Powder. Smeargle doesn't carry any items, so this may give it a range advantage.)
3. Exclusive Move-User Base Skill Uses only moves, not regular attacks. (Note: This is listed as affecting Partner Pokemon, which are normally AI; Presumably, Pokemon of the same species with the same skills that are player controlled can also use Regular Attacks, so I'd reason a normal Pokemon could ignore this limitation if it wanted.)
4. PP Saver 55 (☆0.5) Sometimes gets to use a move without draining PP.
5. Multitalent 310 (☆3.5) Adds 5 to Pokémon's max PP. Cannot be turned off.
6. All-Terrain Hiker 400 (☆4) Can cross water, lava and valleys. (SBA puts default location as Central Park. So Ditto being able to walk on water, especially if it can throw things is helpful.)
7. Pierce Hurler 850 (☆8.5) Throwing items penetrate Pokémon and walls and continues flying.
So Ditto prioritizes moves over attacks or items (But this might be AI induced stupidity, as it's an AI partner only skill; Players can ignore it, so why wouldn't regular, reasonable Pokemon?), knows the layout, where all the items are, & is better at eating food.
Smeargle will react to Ditto dodging better, crit more often, & can sometimes cancel "counter-attacks", if Ditto has anything that counts as those.
And both of them can catch & throw items, as well as throw them such that the thrown item penetrates Pokemon & Walls; This might stop catching. May be useful for Ditto, as it's the only one with a Held Item, & thus, may have a range advantage.
Both of them also have a chance to use a move without losing PP, & both have 5 extra PP.
They can also both cross water.
So in theory, a large portion of this match could just be Smeargle and Ditto standing on the water of Central Park Lake, trying to kill each other by tossing the same pile of powder back & forth at one another.
The best way for Ditto to use its abilities would be to stay away from Smeargle, & exploit its knowledge of the layout & where all the items are so it can use them or chuck them at Smeargle. I'm not sure if that uses PP, but neither do Mystery Dungeon basic attacks, so both can last quite a while.
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/IQ#IQ_groups
Smeargle is IQ Group F, Ditto is IQ Group A.
To be comprehensive, let's go over some relevant skills for both sides(The stars are just from the "When Learned" section.):
Ditto
1. Dedicated Traveler Base Skill Prioritizes moving over using attacks or items.
2. Acute Sniffer 50 (☆0.5) Lets you know the number of items on the floor. (I'd presume this means it knows what useable items are available to it in the location. Although, what stuff could it find that's useable?)
3. Survivalist 140 (☆1.5) Restores more Belly stat when eating food. Sometimes avoids getting status changes when eating Grimy Food. (May be useful if it turns into a battle of attrition.)
4. Map Surveyor 580 (☆6) Knows the floor layout. (I'd presume this means Ditto knows the layout of Central Park by being there.)
Smeargle
1. Wary Fighter 180 (☆2) User steps back one tile when it misses a move. (So if Ditto dodges, Smeargle might step back?)
2. Sharpshooter 260 (☆3) Raises critical-hit ratio.
3. Hit-and-Runner 270 (☆3) Sometimes cancels foe's counter-attacks.
Both
1. Item Catcher Base Skill Can catch a Throwing Item and keep it for its own.
2. Item Master Base Skill Can use and throw its held item. (Ditto may be carrying Metal or Swift Powder. Smeargle doesn't carry any items, so this may give it a range advantage.)
3. Exclusive Move-User Base Skill Uses only moves, not regular attacks. (Note: This is listed as affecting Partner Pokemon, which are normally AI; Presumably, Pokemon of the same species with the same skills that are player controlled can also use Regular Attacks, so I'd reason a normal Pokemon could ignore this limitation if it wanted.)
4. PP Saver 55 (☆0.5) Sometimes gets to use a move without draining PP.
5. Multitalent 310 (☆3.5) Adds 5 to Pokémon's max PP. Cannot be turned off.
6. All-Terrain Hiker 400 (☆4) Can cross water, lava and valleys. (SBA puts default location as Central Park. So Ditto being able to walk on water, especially if it can throw things is helpful.)
7. Pierce Hurler 850 (☆8.5) Throwing items penetrate Pokémon and walls and continues flying.
So Ditto prioritizes moves over attacks or items (But this might be AI induced stupidity, as it's an AI partner only skill; Players can ignore it, so why wouldn't regular, reasonable Pokemon?), knows the layout, where all the items are, & is better at eating food.
Smeargle will react to Ditto dodging better, crit more often, & can sometimes cancel "counter-attacks", if Ditto has anything that counts as those.
And both of them can catch & throw items, as well as throw them such that the thrown item penetrates Pokemon & Walls; This might stop catching. May be useful for Ditto, as it's the only one with a Held Item, & thus, may have a range advantage.
Both of them also have a chance to use a move without losing PP, & both have 5 extra PP.
They can also both cross water.
So in theory, a large portion of this match could just be Smeargle and Ditto standing on the water of Central Park Lake, trying to kill each other by tossing the same pile of powder back & forth at one another.
The best way for Ditto to use its abilities would be to stay away from Smeargle, & exploit its knowledge of the layout & where all the items are so it can use them or chuck them at Smeargle. I'm not sure if that uses PP, but neither do Mystery Dungeon basic attacks, so both can last quite a while.
XitSign
He/Him- 3,285
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Smeargle has the Silk Scarf as a held item through Events, which the profile for Smeargle gives as standard equipment. Going by that, Smeargle here should have his own held item as well. Though, based on the abilities of IQ groups, the ability to catch items almost entirely negates the usefulness of throwing items at a range. IF they're both starting with an item and they can bost cancel the thrown attack, it really doesn't favor either side.
With IQ abilities in mind as well, not a lot seems to help fix Ditto's issues or give good advantages. Central Park is a pretty generic location, and Smeargle has All Terain Hiker too to travel in pretty much any type of location, so 'exploiting' the area isn't going to be increadibly useful for playing keep away with Smeargle. Ditto might know where it's going, but there's very little to use as some sort of major advantage when Smeargle can chase it across, say, the lake just as easily.
Accute Sniffer and Survivalist might help with stamina, but considering how Pokemon already have high stamina that's not likely to be the win-con for this battle by the end, and it also runs the trouble that Ditto might know where the objects are and can make better use of food...but it has to actually go scrounging for it, while Smeargle will be attempting to fight it since it's not about to just take a break to let Ditto go get a snack.
And in Smeargle's corner, Hit-And-Run is probably entirely useless here considering the limited attack options, but Wary Fighter's description makes it sound like it's a measure to avoid your miss being capitilized on, so when it's an up-close tackle and struggle fight, Smeargle will back out of the way more often and mess up Ditto's attempt to exploit the mistake. And smeargle gets the Sharpshooter Bonus to have Criticals more often, so that's extra damage in Smeargle's corner.
And none of these abilities really fix Ditto's HP through transforming problem, while it can copy some of the durability aspects of its opponents, it still tends to lack via a lackluster HP stat holding it back. Ditto's main positive when taking all the IQ abilities into acount as well is that IF there's food to keep it going, it will find it, and possibly other objects to use, but that's wasted time that Smeargle can use to chase, throw, and try to fight it.
Meanwhile, Smeargle still beats out Ditto's HP problem, and has IQ abilities to occasionally hit even harder, throw it's own items, catch items thrown, follow Ditto wherever it tries to go, and even dodge out of the way to avoid giving Ditto too much room to counter attack should Smeargle ever make mistakes or miss. Its certainly no stompfest, but the situation, basic stats, and IQ abilities seem to still favor Smeargle more than Ditto for lasting longer when hits are traded.
With IQ abilities in mind as well, not a lot seems to help fix Ditto's issues or give good advantages. Central Park is a pretty generic location, and Smeargle has All Terain Hiker too to travel in pretty much any type of location, so 'exploiting' the area isn't going to be increadibly useful for playing keep away with Smeargle. Ditto might know where it's going, but there's very little to use as some sort of major advantage when Smeargle can chase it across, say, the lake just as easily.
Accute Sniffer and Survivalist might help with stamina, but considering how Pokemon already have high stamina that's not likely to be the win-con for this battle by the end, and it also runs the trouble that Ditto might know where the objects are and can make better use of food...but it has to actually go scrounging for it, while Smeargle will be attempting to fight it since it's not about to just take a break to let Ditto go get a snack.
And in Smeargle's corner, Hit-And-Run is probably entirely useless here considering the limited attack options, but Wary Fighter's description makes it sound like it's a measure to avoid your miss being capitilized on, so when it's an up-close tackle and struggle fight, Smeargle will back out of the way more often and mess up Ditto's attempt to exploit the mistake. And smeargle gets the Sharpshooter Bonus to have Criticals more often, so that's extra damage in Smeargle's corner.
And none of these abilities really fix Ditto's HP through transforming problem, while it can copy some of the durability aspects of its opponents, it still tends to lack via a lackluster HP stat holding it back. Ditto's main positive when taking all the IQ abilities into acount as well is that IF there's food to keep it going, it will find it, and possibly other objects to use, but that's wasted time that Smeargle can use to chase, throw, and try to fight it.
Meanwhile, Smeargle still beats out Ditto's HP problem, and has IQ abilities to occasionally hit even harder, throw it's own items, catch items thrown, follow Ditto wherever it tries to go, and even dodge out of the way to avoid giving Ditto too much room to counter attack should Smeargle ever make mistakes or miss. Its certainly no stompfest, but the situation, basic stats, and IQ abilities seem to still favor Smeargle more than Ditto for lasting longer when hits are traded.
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@XitSign: I agree about most of your points, yeah. Smeargle can definitely go anywhere Ditto can (Unless Ditto can crawl up walls like some blob monster, but Smeargle can probably jump, or, considering they're both above Tier 8, just break the walls.) & pursue.
However, not only can they both catch items, they can throw items to have them penetrate Pokemon; Can their catching skill let them catch penetrating throws?
Also, the items in Central Park don't have to be just food. For example, Hard Stone is a held item, albeit, a very hard one. https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Hard_Stone That could definitely be thrown for some damage. Soft Sand is also a held item. Less plausibly, scarves, Black Glasses & Magnet.
Nonetheless, throwing can only do so much, & technically, Ditto won't have Moody until it completes Transforming. While this could be just a moment, if Moody triggers for Smeargle in that time, it'll have a net advantage in terms of stat changes.
Knowing the layout MIGHT be useful for Ditto, if it means it can find hiding/safe spots, but Smeargle probably won't give it much distance, & I'm not sure how able or willing Ditto will be to camp.
Smeargle also seems to have the edge in close combat (IQ Skills means more crits, & it can avoid Ditto capitalizing on its misses.) & stamina (Higher base HP.) without food, which is what it'll come down to.
However, not only can they both catch items, they can throw items to have them penetrate Pokemon; Can their catching skill let them catch penetrating throws?
Also, the items in Central Park don't have to be just food. For example, Hard Stone is a held item, albeit, a very hard one. https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Hard_Stone That could definitely be thrown for some damage. Soft Sand is also a held item. Less plausibly, scarves, Black Glasses & Magnet.
Nonetheless, throwing can only do so much, & technically, Ditto won't have Moody until it completes Transforming. While this could be just a moment, if Moody triggers for Smeargle in that time, it'll have a net advantage in terms of stat changes.
Knowing the layout MIGHT be useful for Ditto, if it means it can find hiding/safe spots, but Smeargle probably won't give it much distance, & I'm not sure how able or willing Ditto will be to camp.
Smeargle also seems to have the edge in close combat (IQ Skills means more crits, & it can avoid Ditto capitalizing on its misses.) & stamina (Higher base HP.) without food, which is what it'll come down to.
XitSign
He/Him- 3,285
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I actually can't remember if penetrating throws can be caught, mostly because that requires two differant IQ abilities to interact between two pokemon...and that's, well, really rare to occur. The best way to test that would be to get a game and throw a thorn-class item at a partner pokemon to test and make sure. Of course several times to make sure that the effect would've triggered.
Central Park might have things to toss around still, yes, but that does require Ditto to go out and find them to keep the throwing game going, and also rely on the fact that Smeargle turns out to be unable to just catch these, and not also throw his own held item while Ditto is doing this. Plus, this also opens up that same chase problem, Smeargle's in a fight, it's not just going to let Ditto run away and stock up freely, it's giving chase, and the scavanging can easily open it up to being caught and tagged in the meantime.
And, you're probably right, with Smeargle's own strength, speed, and willingness to chase, there's not a lot of places to hide, and very few of them will also last without Smeargle following or outright busting it. Ditto's attempts to stay away aren't that much better than Smeargle's ability to chase, so Ditto's pretty much going to be forced into close combat, where Ditto can do the least, and even a momentary transform is probably also a setback that's not good news for Ditto.
Ditto's best advantage is scrounging and eating food to try to outlast Smeargle, but Smeargle's going to be hot on its tail the entire time with it's own impressive stamina, it won't be long before Smeargle forces Ditto to trade a few blows, and a few blows Ditto can't afford to take.
Central Park might have things to toss around still, yes, but that does require Ditto to go out and find them to keep the throwing game going, and also rely on the fact that Smeargle turns out to be unable to just catch these, and not also throw his own held item while Ditto is doing this. Plus, this also opens up that same chase problem, Smeargle's in a fight, it's not just going to let Ditto run away and stock up freely, it's giving chase, and the scavanging can easily open it up to being caught and tagged in the meantime.
And, you're probably right, with Smeargle's own strength, speed, and willingness to chase, there's not a lot of places to hide, and very few of them will also last without Smeargle following or outright busting it. Ditto's attempts to stay away aren't that much better than Smeargle's ability to chase, so Ditto's pretty much going to be forced into close combat, where Ditto can do the least, and even a momentary transform is probably also a setback that's not good news for Ditto.
Ditto's best advantage is scrounging and eating food to try to outlast Smeargle, but Smeargle's going to be hot on its tail the entire time with it's own impressive stamina, it won't be long before Smeargle forces Ditto to trade a few blows, and a few blows Ditto can't afford to take.
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At the very least, since Ditto's IQ Ability means it doesn't have to search, since it KNOWS where all the items are. (Also, thinking on it, Ditto will probably be Transformed from the start, as it has Impostor. I'd presume it keeps its IQ Abilities Transformed, but who knows?)
XitSign
He/Him- 3,285
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While it might know where they are, taking the time to actually get them is still probably 'scorunging'. This is central park, I wouldn't be surprised that useful items being tipped off to Ditto will lead it to things like trash cans, but even if they are out in the open, picking them up and making use of them is going to be difficult when you're being chased by a dog painter who's trying to kill you. You might either fumble or the time you take to pick it up means the distance advantage you had just got a touch smaller.
I don't think IQ abilities change after transformation since they're locked to the pokemon itself, I'm pretty sure post transformation in the MD games your Ditto keeps the list and set you have for it.
I don't think IQ abilities change after transformation since they're locked to the pokemon itself, I'm pretty sure post transformation in the MD games your Ditto keeps the list and set you have for it.
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Another thing for Smeargle is that according to the Ranger Pokédex, it can attack by unleashing shockwaves.
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Cant believe this debate is an actual thing lol. I guess the painting dog FRA?
XitSign
He/Him- 3,285
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I'm actually glad we had this debate in the first place, not only is it fun seeing two very gimmicky pokemon going at it, but there was a lot to discuss, shockingly.
Plus, it also pointed out that Pokemon pages could use some cleaning up, they're not all at the same standard of showing off everything, like the IQ abilities. Some pages get more love than others, and we should take some time to fix that.
Plus, it also pointed out that Pokemon pages could use some cleaning up, they're not all at the same standard of showing off everything, like the IQ abilities. Some pages get more love than others, and we should take some time to fix that.
