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[Vietthai96]

Idk where Monika whataboutism from, she manipulate the game file that govern her world. To her, her world is a real world, but it is a game world to the player and everything of that world is a bunch of data in game files, and she is even aware that she is a character in a game world, that constitute Reality - Fiction relationship, or metafiction (not 1-A shit of course), that why Monika get both Info 2 and Plot hax from manipulating the game file because the game file is metafiction thing

 

[Random-Helper323]

Idk where Monika whataboutism from

Whataboutism refers to "two wrongs don't make a right", meaning that for it to apply to Monika it'd require you to be arguing she doesn't warrant plot hax either and was given it unfairly. Instead the community seems to use it every time a precedent is brought up, and it's a gross misuse of the term.

In this case I looked at Monika because she's listed as an example on the Plot Manipulation page.

, she manipulate the game file that govern her world. To her, her world is a real world, but it is a game world to the player and everything of that world is a bunch of data in game files, and she is even aware that she is a character in a game world, that constitute Reality - Fiction relationship, or metafiction (not 1-A shit of course), that why Monika get both Info 2 and Plot hax from manipulating the game file because the game file is metafiction thing

In other words, the difference is like I described, whether the fourth wall is broken or not. The page isn't explicit about that being a requirement. That's why I'm uncertain.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

bump

 

[Vietthai96]

In other words, the difference is like I described, whether the fourth wall is broken or not. The page isn't explicit about that being a requirement. That's why I'm uncertain.

4th wall breaking isn't required but it help, though you don't really need it. The issue is Monika cosmology make clear about the distinction between Monika world and the player world, created a clear Reality - Fiction difference within the verse

 

[Random-Helper323]

4th wall breaking isn't required but it help, though you don't really need it. The issue is Monika cosmology make clear about the distinction between Monika world and the player world, created a clear Reality - Fiction difference within the verse

The reason I'm uncertain is that this thing seems to follow a clearer and more defined structure than typical dream manipulation, and has a reference to the kidnapper writing the story with himself as the main character.

As I said earlier, it depends on whether Plot Manipulation requires:

A) fourth wall breaking and a genuinely fictional setting that knows it's fictional.

or if it just requires

B) a story written and forcibly followed by a character in a setting that is considered fictional, like Pan's dream world.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

4th wall breaking isn't required but it help, though you don't really need it. The issue is Monika cosmology make clear about the distinction between Monika world and the player world, created a clear Reality - Fiction difference within the verse

Uhhh, you got that wrong.

Also I pointed out in one of my posts how several profiles don't rely on R>F like existences for plot hax to work, some do while others don't. The Plot hax also doesn't mention such things being necessary.

 

[Vietthai96]

Uhhh, you got that wrong.

Bro, you should re-read it again

Contrary to popular belief, the fictionality of Monika's universe does not make it lower than a "baseline" reality, as while it's a videogame for the Metaverse Enterprise Solutions and the Player, it is stated to be as real as the universe where they reside in, making both worlds on the same level of existence. Furthermore, the MES implied that their world is also a simulation and they've been researching ways to control it similar to how Monika does with hers, to then claim that a control on her level is unrealistic to have rather than not having any kind of control at all. Because of these factors, as both of these universes share the same nature and have no existential difference, the digital nature of Monika's universe should not be brought up in an attempt to downplay her or downgrade her powers/statistics.

While it is true that you don't really need R - F relationship, you still need to prove there are underlying meta-narration/plot that governs the reality for plot hax

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Bro, you should re-read it again



While it is true that you don't really need R - F relationship, you still need to prove there are underlying meta-narration/plot that governs the reality for plot hax

But PP's dream world is also a reality doe? We have numerous example of dream worlds being a reality inside Demon World infact and this one also mention teleportation iirc.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Are we trying to downgrade Monika's Plot Manipulation here or what? Let's stop derailing the discussion. If anyone believes Monika's Plot Manipulation is inaccurate, you're free to make a separate CRT about it (which I doubt it'll even pass, lol).

 

[Random-Helper323]

Are we trying to downgrade Monika's Plot Manipulation here or what? Let's stop derailing the discussion. If anyone believes Monika's Plot Manipulation is inaccurate, you're free to make a separate CRT about it (which I doubt it'll even pass, lol).

Monika's is being looked at as a precedent, given how uncertain the rules are on this issue. No-one is trying to downgrade or derail.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Monika's is being looked at as a precedent, given how uncertain the rules are on this issue. No-one is trying to downgrade or derail.

You certainly give the implication by saying this, though:

I'm honestly not even sure that is Plot Hax

And all the discussion and whataboutism about Monika is really just derailing the thread. Talking about the terminology in question is fine, but spending two pages discussing Monika to the point where it completely takes over a discussion that isn't even about her is, by definition, derailing.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Yeah, let's just give DMC plot hax and move on

 

[Random-Helper323]

And all the discussion and whataboutism about Monika is really just derailing the thread. Talking about the terminology in question is fine, but spending two full pages discussing Monika to the point where it completely takes over a discussion that isn't even about her is, by definition, derailing.

It isn't whataboutism by the definition of whataboutism, discussion was only ever looking at her as an example when analyzing this issue, it's turned away from that now, and at this moment you're the only one derailing.

We're dropping this now.

 

[Hecky2222]

What that reality is, is up to whatever work of fiction. For example, there are many profiles that state the worlds that are created/controlled are fictional while others just control their own reality.

Few things you are missing here. Those realities are real to someone(meaning predated by R > F)

Then thing you sent

Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only describe, but determines, reality itself.

Leaves you either

1. Prove R > F transcendance which is impossible
2. Prove meta fiction or in another words how plot governs whole world

^ This is why I told you dream world should be equally to other worlds to get fundamental aspect(which plot is) equalization as in "Plot equally governs and defines world like other things"

Well, there appear to be instances where dreams are treated as actual realities inside Demon World:

• There is a place in Demon World called "Memory Corridor" where you fight Demons you experienced from the past which is actually explored as a place in the main story of PoC.
• In DMC3 boss rush description, we found out that the player is said to enter in a "dream-like" state and you're blatantly in the Demon World at that point.
• Nightmare teleports you into a dimension where Dante's subconscious takes form there which is further supported by the amount of Sargassos in that place which was previously stated to be Demons that are transcendent, non-existent entities that exists between the reality and the next and the murky recesses of our nightmares.
• Helfilth is considered the source of all nightmares and he lives in his dimension called "Nightmare Space" which is where whoever sleeps gets sent to according to Helfilth's will.

It had always caught my attention that unconsciousness component is treated more seriously in DMC then conventionally verses do. For example, you can always look at Vergil's nightmares taking physical form inside Human World. Combine that with Peter Pan's separate/alternate dimension statement then it is more likely it really is its own metaphysical reality inside Underworld as every aforementioned worlds are. The Morpheus example also seems to have a similar context in relationship to Peter Pan's dream world or any dream world in DMC for that matter, assuming the translation provided by Tony here is true that is.

ts seems better argument btw for making equal reality, but from scans I still have impression PP Dream world is js insignificant(do not misinterpratate it btw) pocket reality.