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Doom Eternal Revision Thread

KieranH10 said:
I agree the Ballista being relativistic seems to be pushing it a bit if all we get is that it's a "Super heated beam of argent" then it could be any firing method that's super heated. If it's not stated to be some kind of particle beam or cannon then I don't see that happening.
Click to expand...
Super heated BEAM of argent.
 
A particle BEAM is a BEAM of charged particles moving at relativistic speeds, this description matches the Ballista perfectly.
 
But how fast would they be moving? Argent particles don't exist in real life, and thus we know nothing about their properties besides what is in the game.

I think, like "microwave beam", the use of "particle beam" is likely buzzword syndrome rather than literal.
 
Jaften said:
But how fast would they be moving? Argent particles don't exist in real life, and thus we know nothing about their properties besides what is in the game.

I think, like "microwave beam", the use of "particle beam" is likely buzzword syndrome rather than literal.
Click to expand...
We know the bfg 10k is a particle cannon and uses argent.


"Originally established as a mining and communication relay, the UAC outpost on Phobos began immediate expansion following the destruction of the Argent facility on Mars. The UAC Board of Directors, intent on retaining their monopoly of the red planet and its surrounding airspace, issued the construction of an expansive defensive platform. Using technology derived from the BFG-9000, the design plan called for a massive particle cannon to be built on the orbiting moon. The BFG-10000, the largest man-made weapon platform ever conceived, wields enough firepower to defend against even the most sophisticated of capital-grade FTL cruisers in existence - or against the eventual potentiality of a space-bound demonic threat."


And even then, what else could "a Beam of super heated energy" possibly refer to?
 
"Beam" could mean a beam of relativistic particles, but it could just as well mean a directional flow of particles with unspecified speed. Because of Occams Razor we should go with the second.

Basically, beam does NOT necessarily entail a flow of particles moving at relativistic speeds. It fires argent energy so relativistic speeds wouldnt be necessary to deal big damage.
 
^^^^^^^^^^ If it fired electrons or something actually used in real particle beams instead, or Argent energy wasn't a thing and they called it a particle beam weapon, I'd be much more inclined to agree with the relativistic rating (I still think it would probably be an outlier/game mechanics to use it for speed feats for the characters though), but as is its operating principles are too unknown to say for sure what speed the beams move at.
 
Yeah but there's no supporting feats either, and it looks pretty much like game mechanics, given how Marauder combat works in game. Marauder blocks basically every direct attack made on him while in guard mode, unless he enters his axe attack phase where he suddenly can't use his shield anymore because ´¢ç´¢ü´¢ì´¢à ´¢ì´¢à´¢â´¢ê´¢ü´¢Ä´¢ë´¢â´¢ô.

To stand any chance of winning, the player must remain at medium range and watch for the green flash of the Marauder's eyes: this is a "tell" that the creature is about to attack with its Argent axe. While performing these attacks the Marauder cannot use its shield to defend itself. [...] While a Marauder can and will immediately block any direct hit, even for hitscan weapons, it will never block indirect hits.

This is all game mechanics meant to make Marauders more annoying challenging to fight. I don't think it should be taken literal, and I don't think its ability to guard against anything you throw at it unless certain arbitrary conditions are first met should be used to scale speed for characters.
 
Jaakubb said:
"Beam" could mean a beam of relativistic particles, but it could just as well mean a directional flow of particles with unspecified speed. Because of Occams Razor we should go with the second.

Basically, beam does NOT necessarily entail a flow of particles moving at relativistic speeds. It fires argent energy so relativistic speeds wouldnt be necessary to deal big damage.
Click to expand...
how does Occams razor apply to the second tho? We already have an example of an argent beam weapon that is a particle beam so again how does Occams razor favor the 2nd option? This is a scifi weapon that shoots out a beam of superheated energy (that just so happens to be hitscan), it is far more likely of it being a particle beam than anything else, hell look up "beam of energy" and see how many results come up relating to a particle beam weapon, and again argent energy can be used as a particle beam as is shown with the BFG.
 
Jaften said:
Yeah but there's no supporting feats either, and it looks pretty much like game mechanics, given how Marauder combat works in game. Marauder blocks basically every direct attack made on him while in guard mode, unless he enters his axe attack phase where he suddenly can't use his shield anymore because ´¢ç´¢ü´¢ì´¢à ´¢ì´¢à´¢â´¢ê´¢ü´¢Ä´¢ë´¢â´¢ô.
Click to expand...
"Game mechanics" Isnt an argument, the devs purposely allowed and intended for the marauder to be fast enough to shield every attack you can throw at him, that is not contradicted by anything and does not fall under game mechanics induced stupidity.
 
The Marauder attacks with both hands when swinging his axe, of course he can't use his shield when doing that.
 
That too, but I couldn't find any statement on it outside of the incredibly stubby page for the axe on the Doom wiki.
 
I see I'm outvoted here, so I will withdraw my objection regarding the Marauder.

How many of us have agreed that the microwave beam and ballista aren't realistic enough to warrant concrete speed ratings based on real world examples?
 
Armorchompy said:
This wiki basically runs on voting systems lol
Click to expand...
And why would that matter? Just because something is democratically elected does not make that something inherently true.


Also nobody is calling the Ballista the speed of light.
 
Ballista, if it were to be considered a realistic particle beam weapon, would rate at sub-relativistic speeds at least, but would cap out at relativistic+ since the particles it fires have mass.
 
Jangles211 said:
And why would that matter? Just because something is democratically elected does not make that something inherently true.
Click to expand...
Technically true, but in the same vein, just because you think something is true doesn't make it objectively true, either.
 
Jaften said:
Ballista, if it were to be considered a realistic particle beam weapon, would rate at sub-relativistic speeds at least, but would cap out at relativistic+ since the particles it fires have mass.
Click to expand...
That is fine, just remember that argent particles are indeed capable of being fired at that speed (BFG 10k)
 
We should stop trying to decide the attack speed of the ballista since we don't know the mass of the argent particles so we don't know how fast they travel when shot. That being said it's probably hypersonic at least.
 
...So convince us the ballista is relativistic. Because we're currently unconvinced.
 
DeadButDreaming said:
We should stop trying to decide the attack speed of the ballista since we don't know the mass of the argent particles so we don't know how fast they travel when shot. That being said it's probably hypersonic at least.
Click to expand...
The closest thing to a real world plasma beam I can think of at the moment is a magnetoplasmadynamic thruster, which have exhaust velocities of 15,000 to 60,000 m/s.

There are plasma railguns like the MARAUDER, but those don't really fit how the Ballista works, given they fire extremely lightweight toroidal pulses of plasma at really high velocities.
 
Yeah I dont want to just outvoted jangled. This is an internet message board, we have all the time in the world to convince them.

Anyways, Occam's Razor favors my interpretation because my interpretation is more parsimonious. Mine has little to no implications while yours assumes that DS can fight and react to attacks at relativistic speeds.
 
Lets see...


The BFG 10k is a particle beam, as I proved prior, meaning argent particles are capable of being used as such. Conveniently the Ballista is a "beam of superheated argent" which again is capable of being used in a particle beam, the fact that from what we see of it is a hitscan weapon, also correlates with it being a particle beam, it bears many similarities to particle beams being depicted in sci-fi, even in halo they have similar weapons.


You can quite literally look up a beam of energy and will find that particle beam weapons match that description, and if it's not a particle beam weapon, present evidence for whatever else it could be.
 
I agree with jangles on the "game mechanics" thing though. The default way to treat fiction is to treat it as if what happens on screen happens the way it does. Unless of course, there is sufficient reason to do otherwise, which there isn't.
 
The closest thing to a real world plasma beam I can think of at the moment is a magnetoplasmadynamic thruster, which have exhaust velocities of 15,000 to 60,000 m/s.

There are plasma railguns like the MARAUDER, but those don't really fit how the Ballista works, given they fire extremely lightweight toroidal pulses of plasma at really high velocities.

Isn't that speed around High Hypersonic?
 
Even the term "particle beam" doesnt necessarily entail relativistic speeds. They USUALLY have relativistic muzzle velocity. Now you may object that I'm making an assumption by assuming this particle beam deviates from the norm. But I'm pretty sure that assuming a character can move at relativistic speeds is more of a hefty assumption that a futuristic weapon that carries particles that have been SHOWN to impart high amounts of damage WITHOUT high speeds having a low muzzle velocity. There is no reason for the weapon to have high muzzle velocity, not even theoretically.
 
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