• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Downgrading the Dream Depot's size to at least low 2-C.

This isn't crossed out.

Again, the evidence you've presented is based on the non-static meaning of the word "world" and just simply refers to a different setting and has no actual claim to direct comparison of size, even then, Dreambert was just talking about how they had to return to the real world because it was threatened by evil. No comparison was made to the dream worlds. Yes, it's acknowledged that some of these dreams have starry skies. One of them is confirmed to be a universe and the other two are 4-A sized. Similar to assuming that all dream worlds are the same size just by being called dream worlds; that is clearly not acceptable evidence. Again, this scan you have yet to post ofall dreams being parallel is simply not true based on what has been posted and unless someone does post such information I am standing my ground on my position. The size can be 4-A for some individual dimensions that have evidence, I'm fine with that. What I am not ok is with baseless assumptions.
 
That happened later, not the initial post. Plus, you literally said "Less than 4-A, which is BS." That's the part I legit considered trolling. They're not assumptions, they're facts back up by common sense and numerous indications.
 
No...I literally am fully aware of what's going on and what I know is you're completely wrong

Because if you were following the similar discussion, that is along the same line of logic as saying the dream worlds, which have admittdely been called dimensions, are all universes because they are called dimensions and belong to that group. Dimensions in Mario's universe aren't subject to being default universes unless neccessary comparisons have been made, which again, i stress, there have been none here that actually lump all dream worlds or dreams together. The individual dreams are subject to being wholly described as smaller than a universe.

That's not the same logic that was used...There's a key difference and I clearly have to explain that visually. An actual Assiocation Fallacy would boil down to saying that since a set is the same as another set or something else, then it's that the same thing...This is wrong when there's clear evidence against this or the likes

If I said that, Martial Lurther King was a good man and he was a priest, then went on to say that ancient catholic priests are good because Martial Lurther King is the same sect as them, then that would be an Assiocation Fallacy because not only is this contradicted, but it's a broad label and anyone who's a priest don't have a specific quality to them that defines that priest

Now regarding NEO and DDD...There's isn't an assiocation fallacy because not only is there evidence that backs their side up but also in this case, it doesn't apply when your referring to cosmology. If The Andromedia is a galaxy, then it's very classification would warrant the most basic implications of what that label implies, including it's size. What your doing is misunderstanding how Assiocation Fallacy actually functions and twisting it around in your narrative

If in Mario, a dream's most basic definining trait is that it's a reflection of our universe and some are entire universes. Why would the most basic implication of a dream world suddenly change. You're logic is basically like saying it's an Assiocation Fallacy to state that another planet is comparable to the size of Earth when the most basic implication or trait that falls under the concept of "Planet" is it's size

he obvious confliction is that they aren't neccessarilly all the same size dimensions unless proven. Naming is literally irrelevant here. Drawing from SMG2 isn't even a good case, I have drawn from SMB, SMB3 and even SMG2 is actually just settings that are planetary sized called "worlds" The basic logic here is that they aren't outright relfections of the real world, and are on a much smaller scale if not wholly different looking and described as different settings. Antasma's dream world is called a dream world. Literally drop the attitude.

SERIOUSLY.....Everyone who's supported 2-B Mario has asked this about 4 times by now....WHAT STATES THAT. You are literally not providing a single statement that suggests a dream varies in size and additionally, you're ignoring arguments that explictly explains why such logic is faulty by statements anyways. Neo's Nadir logic literally explains why your points of using what's shown is wrong. You haven't even addressed it yet and it's really becoming Ad Nasuem. It's a nightmare, the whole point of Antasma is that he's the opposite of Dreambert
 
@DDM That hardly excuses the post and it is irrelevant to the topic anyway so let's drop it.

I am referring to the dreams that lack said starry sky visuals. Those ones are clearly not 4-A sized. You are B.S.ing if you think those are universes sized dream worlds /dimensions when they don't all have actual character or WOG claims / statements of every single dream world or dream being equal size.

Considering that you have yet to post such definite proof of all dreams being parallel and not merely two dreams worlds / dimensions, when each dream world is distinct in its settings based on different specific concepts in MP5 and some dream worlds are visually limited for us to claim its larger than only what we visually see in it and clearly described in the guidebook as smaller tha a universe, I remain unconvinced that the assertion that all dreams are the same size is nothing more than baseless positive claim that is sorely lacking. At best I am going to agree o At least low 2-C for the size of the Dream Depot unless something new is presented accompanied by an actual scan.

@King

The entire justification that you are using is that the meaning of dream world or even world is static, which is intrinsically proven wrong by it being an outright fallacious arguement to begin with, Both of dreambert's examples is not even being a size comparison to begin with to the real world nor statements / proof that all dreams are that size when we have descriptions otherwise showing and describing dimensions/dreams of objectively lesser size than a universe with zero reason to assume larger than what is shown in the dimension, as with all other verses, this is a standard burden of proof to prove all dreams are the same size to equate an individual dimension, lacking info here, to being the size of a universe, which requires a scan at this point. There is literally zero reason to group all dreams together by an fallacious appeal to definition and association to sharing the same name given that they are just dimensions.
 
Anyway, I need to get some sleep. I'll debate with this later unless another staff member closes this first.
 
Mephisto if you really want to downgrade this just use the fact that every dream is united in Dream Team, like when Luigi and Bowser dream the same dream world in Neo Bowser Castle

I have no oppinion here, but this whole "it's a troll" "close this" is poisoning the well and counter productive
 
Hmm.....I kinda understand where you are coming from but there's several issues with your argument:

Funny thing you brought up Bowser's scheme in MP5 about filling every world with his dreams because people actually bother me about that in order to UPGRADE him. However, just like that proposal, it's not really a valid argument. Upgrade or downgrade, the reason why it can't be used remains the same: We don't know exactly how Bowser is going to do this. Whether he's implying in a literal sense, using some kind of magic, or just going around causing trouble, the game never made it clear how he's going to do this. Just that he's threating them. The lack of context is the main issue here, so it's can't be applied to either side of the argument.

About Bowser using the word "dreams", he even did this in Dream Team when the Mario Bros invaded his Dream World.

" Even here? In my DREAMS? Typical. You're the worst."

However, this does not mean it takes several dreams to create a singular world, it's just Bowser using the words interchangably. Dreambert and the Star Spirits, both characters extremely knowledgable in dreams, as well as the MP5 manual itself made it clear that these worlds exists through a single dream, not an acculmulation of them. (Nor that all the dreams are actually a single world, Theuser) Dream Team's guide also made this clear while also showing that Luigi's Dream World linked with Bowser's Dream World, meaning they are large enough to be fused together. Count in the fact that mutiple of them exists in a single dream and can be done by very common species (More on this later), this shows that there's no difference in the sizes between dreams.

Dream Team Two W


Btw for everyone reading this, if you have something to say, say it. If you don't want to or feel the comment is offensive or not appropriate, then don't say it at all. Crossing out you comment, is not the equilvalent of deleting it when people can still read it.


However, I don't want to sound like I don't understand where you are coming from. Let's assume the world truly are as uneven as you suggested and the person who made Future Dream is the only known case of this. Again, quoting from the information you provided:

"In the end, the decided to invite Mario and his closest friends because, when it comes to dreamers, nobody dreams bigger than they do!"

Whoever that person was that dreamt Future Dream, considering it's large enough to be a full-fledge universe and nobody makes dreams bigger than the Mario Party cast, doesn't this means their dreams are also universe in size by this logic? Let's do the math, there are 10 playable characters in MP5:

Mario, Luigi, Daisy, Peach, Wario, Waluigi, Yoshi, Toad, Boo, and Koopa Kid.

These characters plus the aforementioned person would make 11 dreams in total. Now as established the Dream Depot will collect these dreams everytime they appear. With these characters specifically, that would make 11 dreams a day. In a year, they would gather:

365 x 11 = 4, 015

Now according to the creator, Miyamoto, Mario is 24 to 25 years old. Most of these character are the same age going by Yoshi's Island DS. Let's use the former age to see how many time he dreamt up throughout the years:

4,015 dreams x 24 years = 96,360 dream worlds

Keep in mind, this an extreme lowball, believe it or not. I haven't factor in:

1. The other Mario Party cast in the series eg. Donkey Kong, Bowser, etc

2. The mutiple dreams that exists within a single one via Dream Team

3. The vast amount of species of the 3 playable cast. As we know, Yoshi, Toad, and Boo are just the one of the vast population of their respective species and are pretty comparable to each other in terms of abilities.

4. The amount of dreams that likely exists before Mario was born. The Star Spirits existed before time was born, meaning they, as well as, the other stuff they guard is way beyond Mario's time. Boos also live a very long time, due to being dead and all, futher supporting this point.

Now of course, I didn't factor in the times Mario may had sleepless nights in some of his adventures such as in Super Mario 3D Land, which may be an issue to some.

Also, I'm not implying that all 7 billion individuals (Assuming their world population is similar to ours) who populate the world or the entire universe is a Yoshi, Toad, or Boo. That's wank into the upmost degree. But these species are very common and heavily populated through the verse. If we should be literal in how many dreams are truly form, this would mean counting every Yoshi, Toad, or Boo spotted in the series. But that would mean counting over 200+ games in a 30 year long-running franchise. I speak for everyone when I say nobody has that kind of time.

In the end, regardless of which approach we take about the established lore, the results will still end up around the mutliversal tier. Anyway, that's all I have to say. I have to go to work now.
 
Actually @TheUser789, the term each dream world debunks the idea that there's only one Dream World. No body uses the word "Each" unless there's more than one, but on the the next point.

@Mephistus, back to you. There is something called Dream Orbs which are created each and every time someone goes to sleep. We see them form for each and every person who goes to sleep just like the wiki says. Consistent with this sca reaffirming that dreams are sent to the Dream Depot every single day. The Dream Orbs obviously arrive there and are turned into Dream Worlds each and every time they go to sleep. All Dream Orbs should be comparable in power for the same reason Power Stars are to each other and Grand Stars to each other as well. Lumas turn into planets, stars, and galaxies, and power stars (With higher end feats having more priority) in the same vein Dream Orbs turn into Dream Worlds/Universes. Future Dream was formed from a single Dream Orb, so the rest of them are as well. Also, those pages for Undersea and Pirate Dream prove nothing. It just says they're at least ocean size not that the ocean is the only thing in them.

Actually, by Occam's razor, if multiple bodies of space are created from the same context, diety, or event; they are generally parallel unless otherwise stated. If some Creator God characters gives birth to "Millions of worlds from the Chaos of Creation", and at least one of those "Worlds" clearly has it's own space-time continuum while being universe sized, and at least two of those same worlds are parallel to each other; then Occam's razor suggests they are indeed universes. It's not just "Creating one universe" that happens to have a bunch of sub-dimensions within it, there's at least one of those "Alternate dimensions" is universal with the rest being parallel.

Also, back to Dream Team, there's this example, and this one show casing countless stars. Context also clearly says real world is a Universe. Mario Galaxy games clearly shows the characters have knowledge over the whole universe. So Real World by definition means universe.

Also, we already addressed that "Nobody dreams bigger" is a horrible argument since that just means the dream more excitedly, not that their size is bigger. 2nd, if you did take that statement literally, Subcon would have to be the biggest dream of them all given that Mario was clearly the one who dreamer it as well as the literal biggest dreamer according to the text book. We don't even know if Future Dream was dreamed by Mario or his friends, unlike Subcon which is clearly Mario's dreams. So Subcon would have to be comparable if not superior by that logic. And if Subcon is a parallel universe, so is Subspace.

However you look at it, everything points to Mario's dream worlds being universes and the size of the multiverse being 2-B. Plus, Dimentio's Void still has other statements such as devouring entire dimensions at every moment that passes. And other parallel universes exist such as in Paper Jam and Color Splash.

Also, still haven't found the specific statement about atoms and molecules being sentient, but these guys are sentient and often sleep. And oh wait, these guys are sentient molecules and atoms. And here's some cells and neurons that are also sentient.

And yes, I did lose by sanity, but I've always been trying to keep it. Thankfully, sleeping did help with that. But I'm more recovered sort of, and I apologize for any misguidance's.
 
I agree with Dino, I completely forgot that Dreambert had connected with Bowser thus explaining the union of dream worlds, plus the cast statment already solidifies 2-B no matter what your interpretation is, there's not much to discuss here
 
@Dino

I mean if its up to anyone's interpretation of how the context works there for Bowser filling Future Dream (a universe sized dream) with his "dreams" still hurts the credibility of the standard definition of dream being some sort of static size here regardless. Even if you want to be neutral there, I will take it as a concession that the arguement that the size of dreams Bowser has there definitely hurts the static interpretation for their individual size being automatically a universe. Also, thank you for technically clearing up that it isn't a specific and directly interpretable AP feat since it via made by vaguely creating / dreaming up dreams, which is at worst a chain reaction without direct context, and filling up a dream. Regardless, ruining doesn't mean even outright destroy without further context.

Going by your input, I am still more of the opinion here that assuming universe size only works here regarding only using the playable Mario cast during Mario Party 5 or only said relevant characters that are clearly stated as the most talented dreamers above everyone, especially than whoever dreamt up Future Dream as then its directly spelled out with them to be best dreamers, every other thing that is known to be sentient and capable of sleeping wily nily should be factor in regarding the amount of dreams they have, to obtain the size of the realm then. The obvious case is that there isn't a same context for all dreams when you have dreams that have different things they embody in Mario Party 5, nor is there one singular creator for all of them that have the same aptitude.

The dreamers themselves even being equated to what the one of Star Spirits dreamed up sounds fair game. I am not at all for equating all the dreams being universes and every creature in their verse being granted as being capable of that given the context spelled out. Occam's razor doesn't support it due to all being different cases and actually divided and fairly spelled out dreams made via dreamer aptitude are bigger in MP5's manual.

Technically, there are cases of limited size being talked about for other dreams, and even going by the SMB2 guidebook, a single dream is shared between 4 dreamers;"Hearing this was quite a shock to his friends, who all had the very same dream the night before."

That seems like a big contradiction to what we've seen for a 1 to 1 dreamer and dream ratio...and frankly that interpretation does matter if that is how the size of the realm is being determined as a fair bit smaller size.

@DDM

Two dreams being paralell = / = they are all parallel. This is a pretty obvious fallacy. What we see / hear about is really all we get to go off of for the noted dream worlds that are very likely miniscule. At least you are using a somewhat different arguement now though for them all being parallel, the dream orbs seem to just be equating to making dream worlds in of themselves, not that they inherently create stated dream worlds of stated size of outright universes. This is a hasty assumption. Unless there is a statement of a dream orb making a universe in of itself or somesuch context, I remain with my prior points, the different context is that we don't see dream orbs via every time someone dreams/sleeps clearly evident in other games in the series nor does that need to neccessarily mean the dreams that the Star Spirits made involved dream orbs. I still wish to see this scan of Culex's coming from a dream world, and dreams being stated as outright alternate realities in Mario RPG / wherever that scan comes from because I am very very doubtful such scans exist. The rest of the references you brought up have literally zero relevance to the size of dreams themselves tho.

@Theuser789

Thanks bud. I find it annoying that people want to kill off discussion when its really evident scans are lacking for the series in context and I'm just seeking out an explaination here. It'd be nice if the Dream Depot had a profile page / cosmology blog of its own with actual scans on it and a fairly estimated total for how many universes it holds tbqh.
 
??? You are fine theuser. If you are referring to me i havent taken offense to anything you've said at all and you seem to be defending my right to speak on here.

I still find it productive to continue this discussion given that the justifications that all the dreams are the same size / souce to be lacking to be solely based on assumptions and have inherent contradictions to that all the dream worlds necessarily need to be made from the same single dreamer and if a cosmology page made for the Dream Depot it would require relevant scans compiled to justify such a "calculated" size.
 
Mephistus said:
??? You are fine theuser. If you are referring to me i havent taken offense to anything you've said at all and you seem to be defending my right to speak on here.

I still find it productive to continue this discussion given that the justifications that all the dreams are the same size / souce to be lacking and if a cosmology page made for the Dream Depot would require relevant scans to justify such a "calculated" size.
Click to expand...
Ok cool, but yeah, the size and which dreams are universes seems like a good discussion, since both partys could agree on
 
The OP is inappropriately named then; if it exists to collect scans, it should be specific. Not to force a downgrade without knowledge or context. Should have been called "Scans for the Mario multiverse and Dream Depot." Or something along those lines.

"Filling it with Dreams" is still too much of a metaphorical statement and would more or less be interpreted as them merging universes which is still a multiversal feat similar to the likes of Dark Kah. But still, it more or less means he's just going to turn it into one his personal dreams rather than literally squeezing his own dreams into it.

There are no statements regarding the sizes' upper limits, only the baselines. They're all still created by the Dream Depot, which could be interpreted as the Star Spirits creating them; but the statements about Star Spirits living before time that DRB mentioned only further indicates the likelihood of Tier 2 nature. Again, this is selective knit picking; all dreams are born from the same nature and thus would inherently be comparable. Future Dream is no different than any other dream in terms of significance.

Also, for the pit statement. It's noted that Dream's Deep is the Nadir of each dream. Meaning each Dream World has a "Dream's Deep." Nadir is often used in cosmology to refer as a literal bottomless pit. And Dino already brought up Luigi and Bowser's dreams being merged and the Dream Stone being powered by all Dream Stones as it's made of wishes and dreams. Dreams and wishes are also interchangeable in the Mario multiverse which I'll explain later. But it is the "Wish granting powers of the Dream Stone" that make Dreamy Bowser have power over all the Dream Worlds as he can grant himself "Any Wish".

Now here are details for wishes, the have been introduced in Super Mario RPG as wishes being granted when the reach Star Road. And the same page notes that Star Spirits were around since the beginning of time and are here to grant any positive wish. Those are the same Star Spirits that watch over the Dream Depot from Mario Party 5. So both dreams and wishes have been around since the beginning of time.

Culex legit comes from an alternate reality. And same goes for Smithy's dimension. Exor is an interdimensional gateway between their alternate realities. Dimension is universe in this context since Mushroom kingdom clearly takes place in the Milky Way Galaxy which is in the universe and not some weird pocket reality sort of thing. Can't find the exact wishes creating alternate realities statement, but I recall Dat said something about that. Also, why would some enemies who came from another universe be interested in "Destroying all wishes" unless those wishes were multiversal in scale?

Also, the 4 of them didn't share the dream in Super Mario Bros 2. It was all Mario's Dream and his friends happened to be there. Just because some of my friends appear in my dream doesn't mean my friends are having the same dream. However, I edited my comment and found examples of cells, hemoglobins, molecules, and atoms being sentient from Bowser's Inside story. Forgot to mentioned these guys and these guys are also sentient. As are a bunch of rocks and trees. And since planets, stars, and galaxies are just full grown Lumas, they're sentient too.

Also, more than two dreams are parallel; Luigi's Dream World and Bowser's Dream World were parallel until they got fused. So there's at least 4 with a parallel statement. And given the consistency of important party members having "Bigger dreams" Luigi's Dream and Bowser's Dream would be parallel universes as a standard. So we have at least 5 universe sized Dreams now with 4 of them being parallel, with each and every dimension in the multiverse also having a parallel opposite given the SPM statement from Nolrem.

So yet again, it's still most logical to have all the Dream Worlds be parallel universes. Also, I though even individual mini games were also considered dreams and not just the stages. Also, "Limited visuals" is a horrible argument.
 
@DDM

To address your first paragraph, that is what a downgrade thread entails. If there is absolutely no contextual scans linked on the profiles themselves then a thread is needed to rectify that and bring it to everyone's attention that care about the fictional series. Nevermind that asking a very straightforward question about this topic in a prior thread had me getting threatened that I was derailing when such a simple request as all the dreams being parallel is not outright stated in any scan at all and solely based on assumptions, in which the profiles themselves do not explain. There is no reason to ask for scans when that is the state of how I've seen this wikia operate on.

Filling with dreams can be taken as literal or really any such interpretation, filling is a reference to size itself and it shouldn't really be taken metaphorical given dreams are related to spatial size too, even Dino was ok with not going either way on that.

The Nadir arguement is essentially stretching that there is a single interpretation and cosmological location of Dream's deep to be connected, which would contradict the claim that they are spatially and temporally disconnected. The size of all the individual dreams need to be shown to be having the same nature, as this as already covered, the dreamers themselves matter on how "big" the dreams should be expected to be, without any reason to not take this statement at face value. Taking Dreamy Bowser's "able to do anything" statments at face value the Star Rod would be 2-B, when it clearly needs such justifications on a limit of power here. That's a walking NLF too.

The star spirits existing since beginning of time really only means insomuch as a reference to their local dimension, I'm not sure what your point is on this so elaborate on this if you want. Future Dream is described differently based on the concept it embodies and distinct as other dreams don't copy its scenery down to the base.

The culex part and smithy refer not to actual dream worlds, so hence they are irrelevant here. If dat wants to elaborate on the dreams being called alternate realities I'm all ears because that would be specific to context here and better generalize all dreams. That would be a perfectly suitable statement and what I am asking for.

They literally state that each of the four had the same dream and would have to necessarily take place within the same, only known dream world they enter later on, which again, hurts the meaning of the word being static and that dream worlds need to be seperate at all times. There's nothing to really address here because its downright stated. Ok, again I think the justification for "everyone's" dreams would only imply that there's a lot of creatures to take into account, stating they each dream universes and separately do is still not justified outside of just Mario and the cast.

The number of dreams totalling 4 we know being parallel here hints that they all could be, but that's still not enough to generalize them all being parallel. I already addressed Nolrem's statement in regard to it just referring to a newly created realm, it didn't exist prior when Fiopside did and that doesnt justify all the dreams having parallels due to that.

Again, this really comes down to assumptions, which I'm really just seeing are fairly baseless given there isn't a really good general statement for all dreams being universes to base this on or all being exactly the same. They evidently vary on what they look like depending on the dreamer by quite a lot and again, many don't have cosmic visuals to lend to that. The minigames themselves being outright universe sized "dream worlds" is pretty weird since some are extremely limited visually. they show the mini games asindividual dreams at the end of the game.
 
The entire justification that you are using is that the meaning of dream world or even world is static, which is intrinsically proven wrong by it being an outright fallacious arguement to begin with, Both of dreambert's examples is not even being a size comparison to begin with to the real world nor statements / proof that all dreams are that size when we have descriptions otherwise showing and describing dimensions/dreams of objectively lesser size than a universe with zero reason to assume larger than what is shown in the dimension, as with all other verses, this is a standard burden of proof to prove all dreams are the same size to equate an individual dimension, lacking info here, to being the size of a universe, which requires a scan at this point. There is literally zero reason to group all dreams together by an fallacious appeal to definition and association to sharing the same name given that they are just dimensions.

At this point you're comitting a huge Ad Nasuem and many others (myself included) addressed that you are ignoring certain arguments in favor of your narrative and as such, you'd concede to your points

That being said, stop saying that "THIS IS WRONG !!!" without elaborating on how it is. You claim that my argument is fallacious, okay prove it's a fallacy instead of throwing random fallacies without knowing their basic structure and looking unknowledgable on the subject. Additionally, how is Dreamberts examples not a size comparsion, a nadir is a center point of a circle, which literally by defintion makes the basic implication that what is seen in a dream (or what we explore of it) is just simply the smaller part of the realm and not the total sum of it. This negates any arguments that involve what we see in the dream worlds. I've said this countless times and you have yet to explain how this premise is actually wrong.

Dude literally calling something a universe or a dimension IS a size description by it's very nature. Literally one of the most basic things we learn is that words describe and calling something a planet would imply it's planet size. It's a basic premise that for some reason you fail to grasp. If the act of traversing dreams is cited as crossing dimensions and you have to traverse space-time to reach another, then logic concludes they are universes as that's one of the most basic traits of alternate space-time continuums (and you can deduce this by context alone)

Honestly, you can't say "This is wrong" when literally you failed to explain how exactly it is wrong to begin with. Simply calling my argument wrong or fallacious doesn't suddenly make it fallacious until you elaborate on how. At this point you're not only commiting huge Ad Nasuem but you're also using a Style Over Substance fallacy as a main basis for points
 
King of Baptist Come said:
This should be closed, the OP is ignoring points that refutes their own and this is causing controversy (I also know why this post was made and what group is behind it, but that's irrelevant)
Click to expand...
Nice poisoning the well, not like there are people that even have admited so that they are here as messangers from another person who is not even here, but that's also irrelevant, also irrelevant is that you are a new account that only contributions is commenting on this thread
 
not like there are people that even have admited so that they are here as messangers from another person who is not even here, but that's also irrelevant

Nice contradiction, If it's irrelevant then why address it lol
 
@king

Maybe this wouldn't cause controversy if the people arguing against the downgrade would stop trying to poison the well and simply quote where their claims are coming from? There are multiple quote / scan citations I have asked for here that have me basically asking again where they come from. I don't see why you feel the need to instigate anything by further posting here then if you find it controversial and try to contribute meaningfully to the thread.

The points I have given are being strawmanned and entirely not even responded too as well, prior posts show that. If you want to respond to my prior post feel free to,I've already addressed why the dream world and dream term is variable for reasons you have yet to address and you are simply stating I havent elaborated when I have.

Extrapolating nadir to mean the worlds are entirely each the same size is entirely presumptious based on a non specific cosmological meaning and a non sequitor here regardless if clearly multiple dreamers can go into / have the same dream.

If you have an actual statement showing that they each are similar size, then your arguement and others wouldn't be solely based on defiantly stating I have to even provide proof of a negative claim that the dreams don't share the same qualities and nature when its not my responsibility to provide proof to the positive claim that they are all the same size. Named as dimensions is not a qualifier than they are synonymous to universes in size.

Honestly, that you argue ad naseum when I'm actually bothering to quote large blocks of text myself from others is silly to point that fallacy at me when you argue for me to not point to fallacies you have clearly constructed in your prior arguements.
 
I'm going to wait for Dino Ranger Black to come back, or maybe Saikou might come back.
 
This poisoning the well needs to stop, the first thing Mephisto was accused to being a troll just because he made the thread, and then there's cospiracy theory levels of a "group" behind this when only it has been Merlight, which is also hyprocritical because there are people literaly bringing messages and arguments from others not present, and new accounts with only contributions here in this thread as well

You people don't need to act as if the thread needs to be closed or pointing fingers at some "group", just do what Dino did and debate normaly and with respect, both of them even talked normaly, we can do the same as well and create no "controversy" and reach a mutual understanding from both sides
 
I'm not even fully against a 2-B rating atm, I would just like to have the justification for the profiles be clearly spelt out here and the prior points brought up regarding inconsistencies and about extremely relevant cited statements for dreams being "alternate realities" claimed by DDM or Dat. At the moment the way Dino framed it it should be fine to conclude that the size is 2-B overall for the entire Dream Depot if the prior problems are actually addressed regarding single dream worlds shared for multiple people, but the context to it would only be based on working off of specific similar dreamers known about in MP5 being capable of dreaming up universes due to the guide stating of their talent related to the size of their dreams and going off of those ten beings only that were singled out to vary in the guide and have the biggest sized dreams that "when it comes to dreamers, nobody dreams bigger than they do!"

And yes, I don't actually have any ulterior motives to downgrade this verse unfairly. I actually would be much happier if they were rated higher than 2-B if new information came along to justify that given I'm a bigger fan of this series than most other series on this website.

I would like this thread to actually conclude with a legitimate, estimated number of how many confirmed universes the Depot has inside of it.
 
The real cal howard said:
Frankly I'm with Mephistus here. Not with the arguments of the downgrade, as I could care less there, but about poisoning the well. I don't care what previous history there is, complaining about him making the thread and calling him out on it is hypocritical af. So don't do it.
Click to expand...
^ this. Someone's motives are pretty much irrelevant if they're making valid points and are contributing to a valid discussion
 
I'm in agreement with others on poisoning the well. Even if we were to say Mephistus as a person isn't trusworthy, that doesn't mean the points are suddenly incorrect. Not only that, it just looks really desperate in general to arbitrarily pull in something like that. All it serves is to derail the thread with commentary with something that's not even related to the topic at hand.

Anyway, I respectfully disagree though with the reasons brought up beforehand.
 
Bump.

@Dino

So, some new infos found from the official M&L: Dream Team Guidebook that pretty much confirm what I've been saying along with the aformentioned stuff I've pointed out above.

This is a random dream world lacking any stars / galaxies in the sky or something we can tell of its size being cosmic sized and we actually get a statement of the dream size being called and remarked as a "small dream world" via the guidebook; the dream is visually as big as its settings of being a small forest with a blue sky and pollen dust floating around. This is a dream world that is dreamt up by one of the many random fantasy creatures met in the game.

"This is a very small dream world with only one nightmare chunk."

If you want to argue the sizes of all dreams / dream worlds don't vary in literal size to be small or big in when its actually spoonfed via size and stated via size at least some are small...I really don't know what else to tell you after reading this other than that is wrong assumption to make to be assuming each dream from every being in the game is the same size.

The guide actually points this out regarding size for multiple other dreams that they are outright small too and said ones lack any visuals providing that they are cosmic sized, further showing that there are differences in spatial sizes between at least some dreams. Another such example of a different dream dreamt up by a pi'illo lacking stars / galaxies visually and outright claimed to be small:

"There are only two nightmare chunks in this small dream world, but you must use a new Luginary Work to reach them, as well as one of the ? Blocks here."

Some dudes here disagree with using Mario and co's statement as being able to dream spatially bigger than the star spirits as not being literal and are calling it hyperbole, which 2 other mods; Saikou and Darkdragon, and a few other regular members have expressed they don't want to use the statement due to personal interpretation, it kinda brings this convo back to me questioning again why all dreams that are dreamt up need to be the same size? We are legit left with no real benchmark of the Dream Depot's overall size other than the Future Dream being a stated universe if we can't assume dreams Mario and his friends have actually dreamt up and exist currently are the size of a universe or greater. If we can't use that statement of them defaultly dreaming bigger and have to rely on on the Future Dream then frankly I'm still for this downgrade, out of actually wanting this rating to be accurate.
 
Saying a dream isn't a universe because we see no stars is incorrect. Why? Because that isn't the whole dream, only part of it. As we can see here, we see no stars here in the background. But when Dreamy Luigi actually jumps, we can see all the stars. This means that we cannot assume a dream world is small purely due to its background as when actually going higher, it's much larger than what we can actually see. But then there's the whole guide claiming there are "small" dream worlds. However, the issue with this in context is the length of how long it takes to beat the level, and not the actual size of the level. Meaning the guide is only saying these levels are short and quick, it isn't actually reffering to the entire size of the dream. And I have proven this via Giant Dreamy Luigi battles already but there's another example. This dream has a quick dead end to it just like those other dream worlds in which they were stated to be small. This means we can assume it's also a "small" dream world, right? Well it's shown that you can actually travel to the backgrounds of the dream world even if there is a quick dead end just like those two examples. In conclusion, this just backs up my claim even more about the guide only reffering to the length of the level and not just the general size of the dream. With Dreamy Luigi jumping in space when we cannot see space in the dream world and Seadric showing you can actually travel beyond the dream worlds if there are dead ends is enough proof that backs me up.
 
@weeb

Pocket dimensions in fiction have tons of dimensions with blue skies with actually limited spatial size despite conniving visuals; case in point here's one such dimension in fiction that is limited in scope to being city block sized.

Having stars beyond a blue sky means nothing in regards to a dream's baseline size being a universe for in those particular dream worlds called small when you don't jump into space for a boss fight and just leave the dream. They flat out call some dream world(s) themselves small, there's no way to twist and misinterpret context here otherwise if some actually have dead ends to their size and are limited in size to less than a a couple meters. Of course, the levels design themselves would be small too if they have to fit inside something small, but the level size itself is not what is stated in the quote, its the dream world itself is called small ad verbatim.

The small dream world example you gave in of itself is said to be expanded beyond that dead end size, which also shows that they are again, diminutive, so that case doesn't help if the small depth backgrounds need to expand. That example of the dream world literally said to be expanding past that small background point only shows that the spatial size is small until it literally expands beyond the level size. That they need to expand it past that small background when they, in your speculation, could just go beyond the planet into outer space if the said dream world was that big to hide Peach...yeah. Its clear the size of the dream worlds themselves are actually proven to be as small as I've pointed out, less than a football field for some.

"The dream world expanded!"

At this point, the dream size flat out assumed to be the same for all dreams as Future Dream isn't going to be usable anymore.
 
Prove this is the same case with Mario. The dreams here from what we can see only has a blue sky, but actually traveling farther disproves that we can just say they're small based on visuals.

I've already discussed about the whole "small dream" claim. Again, in context it refers to the length of the level and not the actual size. This has already been proven more than once with Dreamy Luigi's fights and Seadric showing you can travel farther. "The dream world expanded" doesn't disprove my points. We outright visually see Seadric only creating new islands to travel farther in the dream. Seadric was NOT making more space. You can't add more stuff if you don't have enough space, yet here we see characters displaying that you can actually travel farther to the background as long as you actually have something to stand on. You can have large amounts of space that's empty, this is the case here.
 
I'm still with DatOneWeeb, plus I found another seemingly minor detail but further supports 2-B Dream Depot all the more. But I'll come back later to explain it.
 
Except that is the case? We only see a blue sky, what we see is clearly all we can go from it, other dimensions in the verse don't get a pass either for just having a sky .

Don't make me repeat myself. The dream world's size expanding past the visual point is a case of it's size increasing. That you can't go past the stretch of the level at the dead end is a case where the space cuts off. Otherwise making the dream world bigger wouldn't be needed, they'd just go farther out into the background with Peach to hide her there. If the dream worlds themselves already had an outer space full of space, then the size wouldn't need to be added to begin with.
 
So you're just going to ignore what I just said? A blue sky does NOT mean that this is the entire dream. I have already proven this yet you choose to ignore it. Look at the link for the Dreamy Luigi battle. Blue background. He jumps. Stars everywhere. The difference between using Super Mario 64 over Dream Team is that we have actual examples of the worlds exceeding their size than from what we can just visually see.

This is ad nauseam at this point. Please tell me how making land is the equivalent of creating extra space. Seadric is not making space. Just land. Did you play Dream Team? How are they going to hide Peach farther in the dream world's background when she has nothing to stand on. This was literally my argument. Seadric created more land so they can have something to stand on to keep on traveling. It's like making a bridge to a place that is empty and building something there, you are only filling up that already existing space.
 
So you are gonna ignore what I said too? The dream in question expands past the less than football sized area that cuts off at that space. That is the size of the dream world as stated in the guide as "small". The blue sky is just a point made that it doesn't add anything.

If there was an existing starry sky outerspace, then the size already wouldn't need to be added to and extra stuff wouldnt need to be added. That there is no extra space filled shows that they needed to make more space that isn't filled to begin with. There isn't existing space in the first place until he makes more stuff eg more space for her to hide in.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

SuperMarioGamers3
  • Locked
Super Mario Bros. 2-A CRT
2 3
Replies
111
Views
5K
Omnificence
Omnificence
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
  • Locked
Dreams Into Nightmares [Mario Cosmology Downgrade]
9 10 11
Replies
433
Views
28K
Deagonx
Deagonx
TheGatememer
Fire Emblem Heroes: Low 1-C Update
2
Replies
55
Views
3K
TheGatememer
TheGatememer
JJSliderman
  • Locked
Sonic Cosmology 5Ds: Dreams, Dimensions, Data, Delusions, and Downgrades
2
Replies
71
Views
4K
JJSliderman
JJSliderman
ShakeResounding
  • Locked
Life Is But A Dream: Sonic Dream Team CRT
Replies
33
Views
3K
ShakeResounding
ShakeResounding
Back
Top