Dragon Age Tier 2 Upgrade

[Nighting4l33yes]

Now that's a verse that hasn't been mentioned in a while.

This thread will be fairly quick, short and will upgrade Solas from T5 to T2 along with everyone else whom he chainscales to at full power.

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In the world of Dragon Age the verse is comprised of different planes of existence.

The Physical World. Thedas is just one of the many continents and where the events of the franchise take place.

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The Fade is an infinite plane of existence. All magic stems from it and it is a realm of constant flux and change. Laws of physics don't apply there and are merely mimicked by the physical world. Spirits inhabit the place. The Fade is a world of ideas. A realm of dreams where the consciousness of the dreamers travel to. It posses its own spatial structure, physically reality is seperated by it and it exists independently of the material world though it is affected by it as energies pass through. Those are called "vibrations" and they are reflected in the Fade. The Fade essentially functions under a different space-time continuum.

“There is no geography in the Fade. Place and time are far less important than concepts and symbols.” Dragon Age: The Calling, p. 91

Magic. The power to wield the elements and shape reality by forces drawn from the Fade. ~ World of Thedas Glossary

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The Veil is a construct created by Solas in order to imprison the Evanuris inside the Black City. Before the creation of the Veil, the Physical World and the Fade were one. While we don't know what this was like, we know that the ritual for the creation of the Veil ended up sundering the world, the Fade itself and it ended up creating something greater than a mere barrier between the planes. It completely cut off the connection of anything magical to the Physical World. Even pre-existing magical beings such as Elves ended up losing their immortality because of it. Only few individuals are born with the ability to manipulate magic from beyond the Veil and as a result are susceptible to possession by the spirits inhabiting it. The creation of the Veil affected other planes of existence "close" to the Fade as well such as the Crossroads (the mirrors/Eluvians are portals to other worlds), a place connecting to the Fade and other realms including places within the Fade, the waking world and likely other dimensions.

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The Fade, an infinite realm with a seperate space-time and all other dimensions connecting to it, were affected by the ritual. The Veil covers the entirety of the Fade as well. Additionally, the entire waking world, which we have no reason to believe it doesn't cover the entire universe (we know that the effects are at the very least planetary), was cut away by the ritual.

This feat should be enough to get him to 2-C.

The other Evanuris will also be upscaled to his level as they were superior to him the only reason for their entombing being deception and betrayal. Mythal was the leader of the Evanuris and protected Fen'Harel from the other elven gods and managed to easily defeat one of them in a fight.

Additionally, Corypheus with the Elven Orb will also be upscaled to T2.

Corypheus holding the Elven Orb, managed to successfully tear down the Veil in the Dark Future so he goes to his tier as well. (Here as well)

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Solas to 2-C

Agree:

Disagree:

Evanuris and Corypheus Chainscale

Agree:

Disagree:

 

[Qawsedf234]

Your images are broken for the embedded stuff.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Your images are broken for the embedded stuff.

sec ill fix

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

how about now

 

[Qawsedf234]

how about now

No

If you're using wiki links, you have to change "static" in the URL to "vignette".

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

No

If you're using wiki links, you have to change "static" in the URL to "vignette".

ohhhh thats good to know. thank you.

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

It makes sense to me, but I'll wait for more input.

 

[WhydoIneedtosignupintwoplaces]

Unless Veilguard changed everything, I haven't played it, need someone to post things from it. Solas can't get "Tier 2". The veil essentially only exists over the Thedas portion of the Dragon Age planet to our knowledge because we've never been far away from it except the neighboring islands and not only that, Solas needed a ritual and other things to make the veil like putting the other Elves in there to power it with their immortality, dragons, blood magic, items to stabilize it, other shenanigans.

The crossroads, again unless Veilguard gave a time frame, are more pocket dimensions in between the fade, not infinite like the fade. Solas nor the elves never created the fade, it predates them anyway. Since the series is dead for the foreseeable future, we'll never truly know if the veil extended towards anything beyond Thedas like the moons, other continents, etc.

I also think it's slightly unfair to call where the eluvians lead "different worlds". Dragon Age has one primary metaphysical plane of existence and it's the fade. Initially the fade and physical world were the exact same thing. Later on after the veil, they were split across Thedas. We know explicitly though that all places in the fade are technically connected which is why the black city is visible just about everywhere in the fade. So it's best not to call separate sections of the fade as "other worlds" more like tiny pockets and islands within an infinite dimension/magical/mental plane.

There's no way Corypheus would be Tier 2 with the orb either. He did nothing Tier 2.

So hard disagree.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Unless Veilguard changed everything, I haven't played it, need someone to post things from it. Solas can't get "Tier 2". The veil essentially only exists over the Thedas portion of the Dragon Age planet to our knowledge because we've never been far away from it except the neighboring islands and not only that, Solas needed a ritual and other things to make the veil like putting the other Elves in there to power it with their immortality, dragons, blood magic, items to stabilize it, other shenanigans.

The crossroads, again unless Veilguard gave a time frame, are more pocket dimensions in between the fade, not infinite like the fade. Solas nor the elves never created the fade, it predates them anyway. Since the series is dead for the foreseeable future, we'll never truly know if the veil extended towards anything beyond Thedas like the moons, other continents, etc.

I also think it's slightly unfair to call where the eluvians lead "different worlds". Dragon Age has one primary metaphysical plane of existence and it's the fade. Initially the fade and physical world were the exact same thing. Later on after the veil, they were split across Thedas. We know explicitly though that all places in the fade are technically connected which is why the black city is visible just about everywhere in the fade. So it's best not to call separate sections of the fade as "other worlds" more like tiny pockets and islands within an infinite dimension/magical/mental plane.

There's no way Corypheus would be Tier 2 with the orb either. He did nothing Tier 2.

So hard disagree.

The Veil exists across the entirety of the Fade as well which is infinite. In Veilguard, in one of the clips I posted, it is revealed that the plan was originally meant to restrict only the Black City portion of the Fade. The ritual after all however ended up covering the entirety of the Fade, not just the Waking World's side which is why Solas says that the Fade itself was greatly harmed in the process. It's also not really an anti-feat that he needed a ritual. In the end of Veilguard he ends up stabilizing it himself using only his essence.

There's also a codex entry saying the Veil covers everything. Please read the references.

As for the Crossroads, there's multiple dimensions like that in the world. And while they connect to the Fade, they aren't in it. They are "beaneath" it according to Witch Hunt. The point is, that the Veil managed to seperate and affect even them. Morrigan also implies the existence of multiple other dimensions saying "Not all Eluvians lead back to our world".

Corypheus gets T2 with the orb because tearing the Veil across the Waking World + The Fade is a T2 feat.

 

[WhydoIneedtosignupintwoplaces]

The Veil exists across the entirety of the Fade as well which is infinite. In Veilguard, in one of the clips I posted, it is revealed that the plan was originally meant to restrict only the Black City portion of the Fade. The ritual after all however ended up covering the entirety of the Fade, not just the Waking World's side which is why Solas says that the Fade itself was greatly harmed in the process. It's also not really an anti-feat that he needed a ritual. In the end of Veilguard he ends up stabilizing it himself using only his essence.

There's also a codex entry saying the Veil covers everything. Please read the references.

As for the Crossroads, there's multiple dimensions like that in the world. And while they connect to the Fade, they aren't in it. They are "beaneath" it according to Witch Hunt. The point is, that the Veil managed to seperate and affect even them. Morrigan also implies the existence of multiple other dimensions saying "Not all Eluvians lead back to our world".

Corypheus gets T2 with the orb because tearing the Veil across the Waking World + The Fade is a T2 feat.

You mean this missive by a seeker? https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Breach
Again, the problem with this is that a Seeker is like a super cop that has only ever lived in specific sections of Thedas. That's my point here. Seekers are even less knowledgeable than Morrigan, Solas, and the other Evanuris and even they never claimed that the Veil exists on the continents across the sea. That's my point here. No one knows what's across the sea, no one knows what's affected there. Even this is a bit wrong because Blood magic isn't thoroughly affected by the veil either. You can pull magic from blood without caring about the veil. Kind of why the main villains are using a super duper blood magic ritual.

Not all eluvians lead to our world is answered throughout the games. Some lead back into the crossroads, some lead back into other parts of the fade. "World" here means the physical part of the world they're in.

Again, the problem with the crossroads point is that they're pocket dimensions of unknown size in between the fade. Some are smaller than others, some are a big larger. We've seen, read, and been to the crossroads in trespasser and the books and they're not as big as the fade. So the veil affecting pocket dimensions of unknown size shouldn't be the same as being "universal".

On top of that, you're essentially conceding that all of this was a mistake on Solas' end because the ritual affected far more than he ever expected. Why are you pretending that he is Tier 2 for doing a ritual with greater consequences than he expected which took too much power that it made him have to sleep for millennia?

The orb made the breach, it didn't completely destroy the veil and the breach stayed open for some months. Can't be tier 2 because of that. Cory needed allies and even more power to finish his plan, and he failed. It's not like the orb tore the entire veil. It made a hole in a specific part.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

You mean this missive by a seeker? https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Breach
Again, the problem with this is that a Seeker is like a super cop that has only ever lived in specific sections of Thedas. That's my point here. Seekers are even less knowledgeable than Morrigan, Solas, and the other Evanuris and even they never claimed that the Veil exists on the continents across the sea. That's my point here. No one knows what's across the sea, no one knows what's affected there. Even this is a bit wrong because Blood magic isn't thoroughly affected by the veil either. You can pull magic from blood without caring about the veil. Kind of why the main villains are using a super duper blood magic ritual.

It's absurd to claim that the Veil doesn't exist beyond Thedas when we know that the entire Waking World was once one with the Fade and they were seperated. We also know that even beyond Thedas there's civilizations that seek lyrium and practice rituals similar to Thedosian ones such as those Rivaini seers do. Besides, if the Veil existed in other continents, Corypheus or Solas wouldn't be obssessed with breaking it down in a specific part of the world. And Corypheus would've entered the Fade through there which is you know, the entire thing he wanted to do.

Not all eluvians lead to our world is answered throughout the games. Some lead back into the crossroads, some lead back into other parts of the fade. "World" here means the physical part of the world they're in.

And some other lead to other worlds. Which is what Morrigan says. "Our world" = The Waking World. The entire point of that conversation there is to highlight that Elves had created through "space and time" different dimensions and "layers" within the Fade such as the Lighthouse, the Library and others that aren't directly connected to the Fade such as the Crossroads.

Again, the problem with the crossroads point is that they're pocket dimensions of unknown size in between the fade. Some are smaller than others, some are a big larger. We've seen, read, and been to the crossroads in trespasser and the books and they're not as big as the fade. So the veil affecting pocket dimensions of unknown size shouldn't be the same as being "universal".

They don't need to be of a specific size. Them having a seperate space-time continuum is enough to prove that they were affected. And the rating, again, comes from affecting 2 seperate dimensions, The Fade and the Waking World.

On top of that, you're essentially conceding that all of this was a mistake on Solas' end because the ritual affected far more than he ever expected. Why are you pretending that he is Tier 2 for doing a ritual with greater consequences than he expected which took too much power that it made him have to sleep for millennia?

Again, that doesn't prevent a T2 rating. And in Veilguard's ending he ends up sustaining the Veil on his own without any other requirment except staying in the Fade.

The orb made the breach, it didn't completely destroy the veil and the breach stayed open for some months. Can't be tier 2 because of that. Cory needed allies and even more power to finish his plan, and he failed. It's not like the orb tore the entire veil. It made a hole in a specific part.

In the Dark Future the Breach ended up affecting the entire Fade and the Waking World tearing down the Veil for good which which is also infinite.

 

[WhydoIneedtosignupintwoplaces]

It's absurd to claim that the Veil doesn't exist beyond Thedas when we know that the entire Waking World was once one with the Fade and they were seperated. We also know that even beyond Thedas there's civilizations that seek lyrium and practice rituals similar to Thedosian ones such as those Rivaini seers do. Besides, if the Veil existed in other continents, Corypheus or Solas wouldn't be obssessed with breaking it down in a specific part of the world. And Corypheus would've entered the Fade through there which is you know, the entire thing he wanted to do.

And some other lead to other worlds. Which is what Morrigan says. "Our world" = The Waking World. The entire point of that conversation there is to highlight that Elves had created through "space and time" different dimensions and "layers" within the Fade such as the Lighthouse, the Library and others that aren't directly connected to the Fade such as the Crossroads.

They don't need to be of a specific size. Them having a seperate space-time continuum is enough to prove that they were affected. And the rating, again, comes from affecting 2 seperate dimensions, The Fade and the Waking World.

Again, that doesn't prevent a T2 rating. And in Veilguard's ending he ends up sustaining the Veil on his own without any other requirment except staying in the Fade.

In the Dark Future the Breach ended up affecting the entire Fade and the Waking World tearing down the Veil for good which which is also infinite.

There's nothing absurd to not assume something exists in places you've never been to, never been told to, and never been said by those who created the actual thing. Seriously. You're making claims that Solas himself did not. Rivain is within Thedas, it's just part of the north. Your point about Cory makes no sense. He died by being transported into the fade. He couldn't just "enter" as he pleased, same for Solas. Literally, have you ever seen Solas claim he could just go to another continent? No.

Your second paragraph isn't countering my point. By this point the crossroads and the fade are "other worlds" from the "waking world". The same way the lighthouse is just another tiny pocket dimension in between the fade. Again. My same point.

He's sustaining the veil, again, in veilguard due to another blood magic ritual that is tied to his immortality that will eventually fail like it did with the other Evanuris. This isn't "multiversal" attack potency at all. He can't do anything about this, he's either allowing himself to be trapped until he dies or he's being forced to be trapped until he dies like the others.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

There's nothing absurd to not assume something exists in places you've never been to, never been told to, and never been said by those who created the actual thing. Seriously. You're making claims that Solas himself did not. Rivain is within Thedas, it's just part of the north.

The Executors beyond the sea agreed that the creation of the Breach threatened them as well.

Your point about Cory makes no sense. He died by being transported into the fade. He couldn't just "enter" as he pleased, same for Solas. Literally, have you ever seen Solas claim he could just go to another continent? No.

That is YOUR point. Not mine. You claim that the Veil is localized. If that were the case, Cory could just fly on his dragon to a place where there is no Veil and go to the Fade through there. Which is his goal btw. To enter the Black City in the Fade. Same for Solas.

Regardless, what you are saying makes no sense at all and creates too many contradictions. The consciousness of dreamers is transported to The Fade. Rifts are created for spirits to pass through. Mages do rituals to be able to protect themselves from "the beyond". These are all markings of a different dimension. The Fade is where consciousness goes during dreams. If the Veil existed only around Thedas, then people outside Thedas should have a completely different relationship with dreams, spirits, possession, magic, and demons.

Claiming that the Veil is localized, especially when there's hardcore evidence it isn't, begs the question: Why hasn't the world been torn apart by the endless pouring of demons, spirits and magic that would have unrestricted access to the Waking World?

Even the Qunari who migrated from beyond Thedas have the same relationship with The Fade and magic.

Your second paragraph isn't countering my point. By this point the crossroads and the fade are "other worlds" from the "waking world". The same way the lighthouse is just another tiny pocket dimension in between the fade. Again. My same point.

I didn't say they weren't other worlds? The point was that different realities were affected because the ENTIRE WAKING WORLD (the entire universe) AND the Fade itelf, were cut off from other dimensions. Morrigan says that the place is collapsing because it was also cut off from the Fade. Meaning that the Veil is also a Fade-wide effect.

Additionally, IIRC Elgar'Nan's ritual ALSO affects the ENTIRETY of the Fade. Not only does the entire Waking World redden and darken but all of the Fade including its pocket dimensions do too.

He's sustaining the veil, again, in veilguard due to another blood magic ritual that is tied to his immortality that will eventually fail like it did with the other Evanuris. This isn't "multiversal" attack potency at all. He can't do anything about this, he's either allowing himself to be trapped until he dies or he's being forced to be trapped until he dies like the others.

What exactly is the problem with him sustaining it? It's his own feat. Even if it eventually falls, it still covers the Waking World and the Fade (both are infinite) and other dimensions. That is more than enough for a T2.

And no, he doesn't eventually "die". Here, he doesn't seem he is on borrowed time or anything. He promises to keep the Veil forever in the Redemption ending.

 

[WhydoIneedtosignupintwoplaces]

The Executors beyond the sea agreed that the creation of the Breach threatened them as well.

That is YOUR point. Not mine. You claim that the Veil is localized. If that were the case, Cory could just fly on his dragon to a place where there is no Veil and go to the Fade through there. Which is his goal btw. To enter the Black City in the Fade. Same for Solas.

Regardless, what you are saying makes no sense at all and creates too many contradictions. The consciousness of dreamers is transported to The Fade. Rifts are created for spirits to pass through. Mages do rituals to be able to protect themselves from "the beyond". These are all markings of a different dimension. The Fade is where consciousness goes during dreams. If the Veil existed only around Thedas, then people outside Thedas should have a completely different relationship with dreams, spirits, possession, magic, and demons.

Claiming that the Veil is localized, especially when there's hardcore evidence it isn't, begs the question: Why hasn't the world been torn apart by the endless pouring of demons, spirits and magic that would have unrestricted access to the Waking World?

Even the Qunari who migrated from beyond Thedas have the same relationship with The Fade and magic.

I didn't say they weren't other worlds? The point was that different realities were affected because the ENTIRE WAKING WORLD (the entire universe) AND the Fade itelf, were cut off from other dimensions. Morrigan says that the place is collapsing because it was also cut off from the Fade. Meaning that the Veil is also a Fade-wide effect.

Additionally, IIRC Elgar'Nan's ritual ALSO affects the ENTIRETY of the Fade. Not only does the entire Waking World redden and darken but all of the Fade including its pocket dimensions do too.

What exactly is the problem with him sustaining it? It's his own feat. Even if it eventually falls, it still covers the Waking World and the Fade (both are infinite) and other dimensions. That is more than enough for a T2.

And no, he doesn't eventually "die". Here, he doesn't seem he is on borrowed time or anything. He promises to keep the Veil forever in the Redemption ending.

The executors are a background group of guys who we barely know anything about and won't know anything about because the series is over. What is this point? What does "the breach threatened them" even mean?

If Cory had any means to actually leave the continent of Thedas, he would've done so. Neither he nor Solas do. This isn't a refutation of my point. It's like complaining that I am typing that things are different between Earth and Mars and you're like well why don't I just go to mars. or telling people from 50,000 years ago to regularly go from Ecuador to Indonesia. I have no means to, they have no means to, and no one in Dragon Age is pretending either of those to have the means to either. To our knowledge, there hasn't been any large number of people who've up and left and moved far away from Thedas. Even the initial Elves when they were spirits literally only lived on Thedas, then went underground. They didn't fly from the moon.

The point here is that the evanuris, and later Solas, have the veil tied to their immortality specifically. It's the entire part of the plan that semi-worked. Since the elves are spirits who were double immortal by tying their life force to immortal darkspawn regenerating dragons, they couldn't die easily so the veil stood. As each died, the veil fell. It isn't a specific transfer of joules or anything like that.

It's a fire and forget ritual that Solas expended too much of his own energy and others energy and other items magic to do and then went into a millennia long coma.

Qunari, to our knowledge, come from an island very near Thedas. They are essentially within that same Continent. They didn't come from the other side of the planet.

Like I typed earlier. Stop calling different pockets of the same dimension "alternate realities", it gives people who don't know this series the wrong impression. The waking world is never mentioned as "the universe", it is almost always talking about Thedas specifically. I swear, I don't even remember anyone in dragon age calling "the waking world" infinite, you'll need a hard citation for that and a bunch of other things mentioned here.

Again, stop being disingenuous lol. Solas is less immortal than Elgarnan and Ghilanain and both died. We know this because he never tied his life force to a dragon. Hell, the inquisitor isn't immortal either. One of the major points of the ritual is that it was never truly permanent. It's why he says "I can't get rid of the blight but I can soothe it".

The absolute max you can really argue for the veil is that it exists over a continent because the entire series only takes place on said continent/nearby islands. Even then the veil itself isn't an attack or point of durability but was created with rituals and McGuffin's beyond what the actual creators can do on their own outside those rituals. Most direct thing you can get from Solas, pre Veilguard at least, was cory bringing up hills with the anchor and some other Evanuris more powerful than him killing titans who are mountain sized.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

The executors are a background group of guys who we barely know anything about and won't know anything about because the series is over. What is this point? What does "the breach threatened them" even mean?

If Cory had any means to actually leave the continent of Thedas, he would've done so. Neither he nor Solas do. This isn't a refutation of my point. It's like complaining that I am typing that things are different between Earth and Mars and you're like well why don't I just go to mars. or telling people from 50,000 years ago to regularly go from Ecuador to Indonesia. I have no means to, they have no means to, and no one in Dragon Age is pretending either of those to have the means to either. To our knowledge, there hasn't been any large number of people who've up and left and moved far away from Thedas. Even the initial Elves when they were spirits literally only lived on Thedas, then went underground. They didn't fly from the moon.

There's been people beyond Thedas. Plenty of people have traveled beyond it. Just not in the entire world. As I said, even the Qunari have.

I am a sure a flying archdemon-dragon is a means considering he's flying all over Thedas with it. If what you are saying is true, he would fly there and just waltz into the Fade if there was no Veil beyond Thedas. There's even been colonization attempts in some regions.

The point here is that the evanuris, and later Solas, have the veil tied to their immortality specifically. It's the entire part of the plan that semi-worked. Since the elves are spirits who were double immortal by tying their life force to immortal darkspawn regenerating dragons, they couldn't die easily so the veil stood. As each died, the veil fell. It isn't a specific transfer of joules or anything like that.

It's a fire and forget ritual that Solas expended too much of his own energy and others energy and other items magic to do and then went into a millennia long coma.

This doesn't disqualify it from being a T2 feat...

Like I typed earlier. Stop calling different pockets of the same dimension "alternate realities", it gives people who don't know this series the wrong impression. The waking world is never mentioned as "the universe", it is almost always talking about Thedas specifically. I swear, I don't even remember anyone in dragon age calling "the waking world" infinite, you'll need a hard citation for that and a bunch of other things mentioned here.

It's always been called the Waking World... And you don't really have any hard evidence that they aren't alternate realities. Morrigan calls it a place "under the Fade" and that there's multiple others "between" the Fade and the Waking World. It's been long established.

Also, there's no reason to believe that the DA universe isn't an actual universe when there's celestial objects in the sky and shit... That's a really bad argument.

Again, stop being disingenuous lol. Solas is less immortal than Elgarnan and Ghilanain and both died. We know this because he never tied his life force to a dragon. Hell, the inquisitor isn't immortal either. One of the major points of the ritual is that it was never truly permanent. It's why he says "I can't get rid of the blight but I can soothe it".

The absolute max you can really argue for the veil is that it exists over a continent because the entire series only takes place on said continent/nearby islands. Even then the veil itself isn't an attack or point of durability but was created with rituals and McGuffin's beyond what the actual creators can do on their own outside those rituals. Most direct thing you can get from Solas, pre Veilguard at least, was cory bringing up hills with the anchor and some other Evanuris more powerful than him killing titans who are mountain sized.

Still irrelevant and doesn't negate a T2 rating. And it didn't even take all that much preperation. His Uthenera lasting that long was also kind of a choice iirc.

You realize that Solas is currently listed as T5 aka Planetary right? Calling for a downgrade is mad bonkers. Not to mention, nothing you are saying is contrary to a T2 rating. It was a ritual that seperated a single dimension into two different dimensions with different continua, both infinite, and ended up impacting how reality and metaphysics work. It's nonsense saying that somehow the ritual was localized and left the Waking World with one part being still connected to the Fade and one continent unconnected. Lmao.

If you disagree, which is unreasonable and unsupported, with the Waking World being an infinite universe, there's still the Veil in the Fade (and other dimensions existing between it and the Waking World) which is, undisputedly, infinite.

Also, for all of these comments, you haven't had any citations at all to support your point that the Veil isn't a universe-wide nor a Fade-wide barrier. If you have nothing more to add other than claims without evidence, please, comment no further. Or do. Just don't expect me to reply further pointlessly.

 

[WhydoIneedtosignupintwoplaces]

There's been people beyond Thedas. Plenty of people have traveled beyond it. Just not in the entire world. As I said, even the Qunari have.

I am a sure a flying archdemon-dragon is a means considering he's flying all over Thedas with it. If what you are saying is true, he would fly there and just waltz into the Fade if there was no Veil beyond Thedas. There's even been colonization attempts in some regions.

This doesn't disqualify it from being a T2 feat...

It's always been called the Waking World... And you don't really have any hard evidence that they aren't alternate realities. Morrigan calls it a place "under the Fade" and that there's multiple others "between" the Fade and the Waking World. It's been long established.

Also, there's no reason to believe that the DA universe isn't an actual universe when there's celestial objects in the sky and shit... That's a really bad argument.

Still irrelevant and doesn't negate a T2 rating. And it didn't even take all that much preperation. His Uthenera lasting that long was also kind of a choice iirc.

You realize that Solas is currently listed as T5 aka Planetary right? Calling for a downgrade is mad bonkers. Not to mention, nothing you are saying is contrary to a T2 rating. It was a ritual that seperated a single dimension into two different dimensions with different continua, both infinite, and ended up impacting how reality and metaphysics work. It's nonsense saying that somehow the ritual was localized and left the Waking World with one part being still connected to the Fade and one continent unconnected. Lmao.

If you disagree, which is unreasonable and unsupported, with the Waking World being an infinite universe, there's still the Veil in the Fade (and other dimensions existing between it and the Waking World) which is, undisputedly, infinite.

Also, for all of these comments, you haven't had any citations at all to support your point that the Veil isn't a universe-wide nor a Fade-wide barrier. If you have nothing more to add other than claims without evidence, please, comment no further. Or do. Just don't expect me to reply further pointlessly.

The important thing to note there is that the Qunari themselves have no recording that the veil even existed in whatever lands they supposedly migrated from and on top of that, one has to question if Genitivi's old writings are even still correct knowing now that they are actually more so Dragon hybrids of some sort.

Though I am willing to concede that the veil itself might affect the entire "world" / "planet", since I haven't played Veilguard. I can't agree that it covers other celestial bodies or the unknown solar system or universe. Nothing you posted leads me to think so.

Solas being listed as planetary should be incorrect, I'm not even sure how that was allowed given El'Garnan, his superior only has a feat of moving a moon after doing a ritual. Where did this rating even come from? The important part being that making the veil was a mistake on Solas' end and required more power and energy than he ever had in that ritual, similarly, the ritual that he was trying to use to break the veil also required more energy and power than he has. It's ascribing a level of power to him that he doesn't have, nor do I think that a character should be "planet level" for doing a ritual using more energy than they have to confine a group of people to a small city prison that ended up blowing up in his face and stretched farther than he expected, making him pass out for thousands of years and losing a significant portion of his own power.

As for "waking world". I pointed this out to you already, but when Thedas' people use the word, world, they're referring to Thedas primarily not the entire planet or universe, because they don't have a specific name of the planet or universe. Thedas is explicitly their continent but it is the only "world" they know. Gaider, the primary writer of this franchise, who is essentially the creator of Dragon age opined on this when asked about it 10 years ago:

Mr Gaider, I dont know if this has been asked before, but what is the name of the planet that Dragon Age takes place on?

https://www.tumblr.com/theoriginalcrazyferelden
dgaider-deactivated20150130 answered:
Thedas.
At least, to the people of Thedas. They don’t really have a concept of a “planet”, however… to them, there is the sky and the earth and Thedas. “Thedas” itself is an old Tevinter word that meant “the land beyond the empire” and originally referred to the frontier until it eventually came to encompass the entire continent… which is their entire world, at present.
I’m sure once the concept of the larger world becomes a thing, the separation of Thedas from the rest of the world will become a more important thing to distinguish. Considering our own words for our planet are rooted in our words for “the ground under our feet”, it’s unlikely to be as complicated as you’d imagine.

Again, you're not engaging with my argument. In the link you posted, one of the places "between" is the crossroads, we already saw other places between like the lighthouse in veilguard. None of these are "infinite" either. They're pockets between the fade and the waking world. Three, none of those links you posted ever refer to the waking world as the entire universe.
It's why I typed you shouldn't lead people astray by using certain words. For ex. The Veil is explicitly not a construct or an actual barrier, it's metaphysical.

Ultimately, you can mark me as a disagree. I think it's clear that he nor anyone in the OP should be "Tier 2".

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

The important thing to note there is that the Qunari themselves have no recording that the veil even existed in whatever lands they supposedly migrated from and on top of that, one has to question if Genitivi's old writings are even still correct knowing now that they are actually more so Dragon hybrids of some sort.

The greatest advantage that the Chantry-led forces had against the qunari was, in fact, the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the qunari appeared to harbor a great hatred for all things magical. They possessed mages, but these were little better than animals kept on leashes… and none of the qunari mages possessed anywhere near the skill that the Circle’s mages had. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed.

This genuinely straight up disproves your claim.

Solas being listed as planetary should be incorrect, I'm not even sure how that was allowed given El'Garnan, his superior only has a feat of moving a moon after doing a ritual. Where did this rating even come from?

No it shouldn't be. You still haven't provided any non-refutable evidence that the Veil is localized.

The important part being that making the veil was a mistake on Solas' end and required more power and energy than he ever had in that ritual, similarly, the ritual that he was trying to use to break the veil also required more energy and power than he has.

If that were the case, he wouldn't be able to achieve it. That's literally just false. You also have no evidence of this.

As for "waking world". I pointed this out to you already, but when Thedas' people use the word, world, they're referring to Thedas primarily not the entire planet or universe, because they don't have a specific name of the planet or universe. Thedas is explicitly their continent but it is the only "world" they know. Gaider, the primary writer of this franchise, who is essentially the creator of Dragon age opined on this when asked about it 10 years ago:

No they don't. They are referring to the world that isn't the Fade as it's always mentioned in texts regarding Fade and magic in contrast to that dimension.

What you are quoting doesn't mean anything and it's just about how little is known of the lands beyond.

We have information on lands beyond that continent. Unless you want to tell me that the info we have on the Sunless Lands, to the lands beyond Hunterhorn Mountains, the Donarks and stuff are somehow non-canon. Which is absurd.

Again, you're not engaging with my argument. In the link you posted, one of the places "between" is the crossroads, we already saw other places between like the lighthouse in veilguard. None of these are "infinite" either. They're pockets between the fade and the waking world.

I am sorry but what arguments? You have argued 3 things so far: 1) The Veil is localized 2) Solas didn't mean for the Veil to be all-encompassing 3) And things about the other dimensions.

1) You haven't supported your first claim at all and you are pretty much just making assumptions without scans or anything. 2) Your second claim is irrelevant and doesn't refute the feat 3) You keep misunderstanding my point about the dimensions.

They're pockets between the fade and the waking world. Three, none of those links you posted ever refer to the waking world as the entire universe.

Pardon?? They are clearly distinguishing the two dimensions. So they are refering to the entire dimension of the physical world.

Ultimately, you can mark me as a disagree. I think it's clear that he nor anyone in the OP should be "Tier 2".

No it's not clear. Lol. You haven't provided any evidence and again, EVEN if the Veil is localized to the planet (which is not because it would mean that mages could just draw magic from other sources which they can't and it would FURTHER mean that the Elves wouldn't need to lose their immortality since parts of reality would have free access to Fade and magic passing through) the Veil exists within the entire Fade which is infinite so the rating can also come from that.

 

[WhydoIneedtosignupintwoplaces]

This genuinely straight up disproves your claim.

No it shouldn't be. You still haven't provided any non-refutable evidence that the Veil is localized.

If that were the case, he wouldn't be able to achieve it. That's literally just false. You also have no evidence of this.

No they don't. They are referring to the world that isn't the Fade as it's always mentioned in texts regarding Fade and magic in contrast to that dimension.

What you are quoting doesn't mean anything and it's just about how little is known of the lands beyond.

I am sorry but what arguments? You have argued 3 things so far: 1) The Veil is localized 2) Solas didn't mean for the Veil to be all-encompassing 3) And things about the other dimensions.

1) You haven't supported your first claim at all and you are pretty much just making assumptions without scans or anything. 2) Your second claim is irrelevant and doesn't refute the feat 3) You keep misunderstanding my point about the dimensions.

Pardon?? They are clearly distinguishing the two dimensions. So they are refering to the entire dimension of the physical world.

No it's not clear. Lol. You haven't provided any evidence and again, EVEN if the Veil is localized to the planet, which is not because it would mean that mages could just draw magic from other sources which they can't and it would FURTHER mean that the Elves wouldn't need to lose their immortality since parts of reality would have free access to Fade and magic passing through, the Veil exists within the entire Fade which is infinite so the rating can also come from that.

How does the existence of magic counter my point? Magic has always existed in the setting. What is that first excerpt suppose to counter?

Again, you are refusing to read. It was not Solas' intent for the Veil to be so widespread, just like it wasn't his intent for all future elves to have no immortality or weak magic, just like it wasn't his intent to be so weakened he fell into slumber for a millenia after doing this. All of these were unintential consequences of the ritual.
This you haven't refuted like all the extra power sources he needed to use to do it in the first place. This isn't even a point I'm only making, it's a point explicitly in veilguard said by your companions who are also viewing it. It was an accident, he was yelling, he didn't even know this would happen.



You're trying to do a Content revision without pointing out this important part.


Mages explicitly can draw magic from other sources, which is their blood, which doesn't even need to touch the fade.

"You're a blood mage." Unconsciously, Isseya let her voice drop as she said it."

"How did you know?" he asked so quietly that she barely caught the words across the wind.


"I'm a mage too, Calien. I can see when you're casting spells without touching the Fade." He'd only done it a few times in her presence, always in desperate straits and only when he'd already been wounded by darkspawn, so the bloodletting needed to fuel his magic would not be obvious … but she'd noticed."


Excerpt From: "Chapter 10" Liane Merciel. "Dragon Age: Last Flight." Tor, 2014.

On top of that, you have lyrium which isn't "originally" from the fade but the titans and it is also pure magic which is what templars use and what the spirits found and used initially to become elves.

I have provided more than enough evidence throughout, I'm even providing more in this post here. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't evidence. I don't know what extraplanetary source you're referring to here.

No, the original elves didn't lose their immortality. Solas and the ones you find in Inquisition still had it. Every elf born after the fact lost it. Your point here makes no sense and isn't a refutation of what I typed. They became something else.

No they don't. They are referring to the world that isn't the Fade as it's always mentioned in texts regarding Fade and magic in contrast to that dimension.

What you are quoting doesn't mean anything and it's just about how little is known of the lands beyond.

We have information on lands beyond that continent. Unless you want to tell me that the info we have on the Sunless Lands, to the lands beyond Hunterhorn Mountains, the Donarks and stuff are somehow non-canon. Which is absurd.

I'd ask you to stop trying to insult my intelligence here. You don't know more than Gaider, he wrote the vast majority of the lore you keep referencing. This isn't an appeal to authority, but your dismissal of his words are inappropriate for the reason below.

Two, you are being completely disingenuous. All three locations you just referred to are within the continent of Thedas. They are not on some far away continent. Anyone reading this can literally just google that and see it.

https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Donarks

https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Hunterhorn_Mountains

https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Sunless_Lands

You, again, have failed to counter my point or what the creator of the franchise said here. The "world" is referring to Thedas the continent.

You previously typed that you wouldn't respond and now you have, if you want to continue, we can, but please don't lie and change your mind here.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

How does the existence of magic counter my point? Magic has always existed in the setting. What is that first excerpt suppose to counter?

That they have mages imprisoned because of the possibility of possession. This can happen only if there's a Veil. That and the fact that their magic is inferior to anything Thedosian. The Elves had created crazy shit out of magic. The Qunari came from a land where, as you claim there's no Veil and they ain't got any of that? Not to mention, if there wasn't a Veil where they came from, why tf would they bother stopping Solas in Trespasser?

Again, you are refusing to read. It was not Solas' intent for the Veil to be so widespread, just like it wasn't his intent for all future elves to have no immortality or weak magic, just like it wasn't his intent to be so weakened he fell into slumber for a millenia after doing this. All of these were unintential consequences of the ritual.
This you haven't refuted like all the extra power sources he needed to use to do it in the first place. This isn't even a point I'm only making, it's a point explicitly in veilguard said by your companions who are also viewing it. It was an accident, he was yelling, he didn't even know this would happen.

Irrelevant. Again. Not an anti-feat.

What extra power sources?

Mages explicitly can draw magic from other sources, which is their blood, which doesn't even need to touch the fade.

There's no explanation thus far as to why blood invokes magic.

"Although lyrium will allow a mage to send his conscious mind into the Fade, blood would allow him to find the sleeping minds of others, view their dreams, and even influence or dominate their thoughts. Just as treacherous, blood magic allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into our world."

At best, it just opens a greater rift in the Veil and it's the life force of mages which they can already do with normal magic. Lol. It's not that non-mages can use blood to do magic.

On top of that, you have lyrium which isn't "originally" from the fade but the titans and it is also pure magic which is what templars use and what the spirits found and used initially to become elves.

Yes...? What does this prove?

No, the original elves didn't lose their immortality. Solas and the ones you find in Inquisition still had it. Every elf born after the fact lost it. Your point here makes no sense and isn't a refutation of what I typed. They became something else.

They didn't because their bodies were infused with magic already from the Fade. The newer generations can't be connected to the Fade since the Veil exists.

I'd ask you to stop trying to insult my intelligence here. You don't know more than Gaider, he wrote the vast majority of the lore you keep referencing. This isn't an appeal to authority, but your dismissal of his words are inappropriate for the reason below.

??? I am disregarding this.

Two, you are being completely disingenuous. All three locations you just referred to are within the continent of Thedas. They are not on some far away continent. Anyone reading this can literally just google that and see it.
https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Donarks https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Hunterhorn_Mountains https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Sunless_Lands

They are not entirely part of Thedas. All of these links explain to you that these regions move further beyond the continent.

And just because it's part of the same land, it doesn't mean it's one continent. Even in our world you have Eurasia lol. They are still seperate continents.

Even the HoF is in the "Western lands" that are beyond that mountainside and that is clearly NOT part of Thedas.

You, again, have failed to counter my point or what the creator of the franchise said here. The "world" is referring to Thedas the continent.

Because it's irrelevant, untrue and just whatever? I explained that 1) The term "waking world" is found in juxtaposition of "the fade" because dreamers consciousness travels there so it's a way to seperate the realities. 2) It doesn't matter what he said because we do have evidence of other civilizations existing beyond Thedas. 3) He doesn't talk about the "waking world".

You previously typed that you wouldn't respond and now you have, if you want to continue, we can, but please don't lie and change your mind here.

I am really considering it.