Dragon Ball Ability Revisions

[Rocket-Bot]

From what we learned in this conversation, with Kepekley's scan, (my daizenshuu scan but yall dont like guidebooks lol), where the ability is shown to have a direct correlation with strength. But then it's "why don't other people use this ability" which can be countered with "well they don't know they can do it."

And it's like Warren said, this is an indexing site where accuracy matters. So if we took it out it's like saying they absolutely cannot, which is wrong as proven with the scans, not putting possibly is like saying they can, which is iffy because they don't.

TL;DR Putting possibly is the best middle ground as it reflects both the nature of the ability, and the reason why they don't do it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know SSJ3 Gotenks also preformed the feat, but at the same time; it was only shown that portal creation was used to escape the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. So it sounds more like limited pocket reality manipulation rather than Space-Time Fabric. Since the Hyperbolic Time Chamber is only Planet sized and destroying it would only be a 5-A feat; 100x GBE of Earth given same volume and 10 G's. IMO, Portal Creation should be more like limited Pocket Reality manipulation.

 

[Akreious]

But they didn't manipulate a Pocket Dimension; they broke a hole in between Dimensions which is Portal Creation.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know, but still. There's an even split, they can't really create portals by Space-Time Fabricating entire universes, but Buu and Gotenks can do it with a Planet sized pocked Reality, hence limited Pocket Reality Manipulation. Vegeta still destroyed the Time Chamber, aka Pocket Reality Destruction.

 

[Akreious]

... What? like I get Pocket Reality Destruction but like... Vice Shout is breaking the barriers between dimensions with sheer power. That's pretty much it. The Hyperbolic Time Chamber is a separate dimension from the normal reality which is why they had to use the vice Shout in the first place

 

[I_s_u-c_l_o_n_e]

I don't see any reason why it should be removed. Yeah they haven't done it, but they have the ability to do so because all the Vice Shout is is just screaming and tearing a hole between dimensions via power alone. It would be like saying Goku Black doesn't likely having Kaioken. Yeah he never used it, but Zamasu learned everything about Goku and knows that he has it so it makes sense that he would likely be able to use it. Same thing for the Vice Shout.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

False equivalency. Goku Black is literally Goku with someone else piloting. This is people having an ability that no one else other than Buu and Gotenks did. We've never done this for any other verse, even ones with stupid amounts of abilities, and was a mistake to begin with. I'm proud of UMR for making this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Dark649 did say he was neutral, but I want to here his thoughts. He's the #1 Dragon Ball expert IMO. Though, SomebodyData and Matt come close.

 

[Amexim]

The idea that we can't do things case by case is kinda annoying IMO. Dragon Ball explicitly states "sheer power" and people ignore that and say that no one else should have it, even when stronger, despite the correlation being literally direct...

In Dragon Ball, hax and hax resistance should be treated as comparable to power when the situation calls for it. I'm not saying that Beerus can resist Monster Carrot's touch, but if Vice Shout is literally people just screaming hard with a sufficient amount of power, anyone can do it.

And it's not like saying, "oh, Vegeta can do a Galick Gun! And the Kamehameha is a blast! That means he can do Kamehameha also!"

It's like shaking a planet with your ki, or the world of void-- if it's through "sheer power" than everyone stronger can do it. That's like saying that characters without feats are weaker than those who do, despite scaling.

That means Grand Priest is weaker than everyone. And, no, this is not a false equivalency. The Vice Shout isn't even hax. It's just wonky AP phenomenon that's a part of Dragon Ball's physics. Like Flash running through time via speed BS. Or can Vegeta not cause shockwaves capable of making him universal either, because he didn't do it?

 

[Amexim]

Like, demonstrating resistance to Devilman's beam that are explained to be ineffective on pure hearted people or being somehow able to resist matter transmutation or something with no evidence for how power effects it being viable for scaling is fine.

But for stuff like the Hakai, or Hit's time Manipulation (where both Goku and Jiren overpowered it through stats in the anime, like in the Manga) or hell, even Vegeta's "absolute zero" resistance, where all he did was charge up to break out of it, things like that should scale because they can be reliable argued to be related to power.

You telling me that U6 Hit's Time Skip would work on SSBE Vegeta? Or Omen Goku? Even though Goku's KKx10 is what allowed him to strike Hit through the time skip? And KKx10 only increases the stats...? Grand Priest can't resist timeskip either, can he? Nor Whis? Because he hasn't shown it.

 

[Akreious]

The Vice Shout is literally stated to be via Sheer Power. Why is this even a debate? If a move is literally just done via shouting very powerfully, then logically, any character stronger should be capable of doing so because this ability is derived from sheer power, not any specific ability of a character.

 

[Amexim]

Oh, because "muh, showings or no listings!"

Like powerscaling isn't a thing. Or like we can't make inferences.

I feel like people are jumping at stuff like this because of procedure with either other verses of general stuff, ignoring context, and taking a stance based on how wrong something feels, instead of if it's correct in context. Scaling resistances in a verse, dragon Ball or not, that has then based on AP is just rational. Being against it when it's obvious is the problem.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright, let's use your logic. Every Pokémon should have Pound, Growl, Tackle, and other simple moves even though they don't learn it because it makes logical sense and they're all superior to Bidoof.

 

[Akreious]

Cal, I am almost 100% sure that's pure game mechanics. Literally anything physical is capable of Tackling, Growling or Pounding. Like... that's not a thing you need to learn. Tackling is literally running at something fast enough to knock them down.

Also, that's not equivalent to this. Unlike Pokemon, the Vice Shout is show as well as implied, possibly confirmed to be done via SHEER POWER. No special moves needed to be learned or anything, Piccolo flat out says he just lacks the power to do the Vice Shout and proven when Gotenks reaches SSJ3 which allowed him to do the Vice Shout.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yes, and it's still not listed on any Pokémon who can't learn those, be it Mewtwo or Arceus. It doesn't matter if they're theoretically capable of doing it. It's not a part of their powerset. I'm not doubting they can accidentally stumble upon the technique either, but until they do, no dice.

 

[Amexim]

First off, that's a False Equivalency, and a horrible attempt to make a rational point sound ridiculous. And second off, I actually agree with that train of thought. Just, well, we're adhering to the logic of pokémon, rather than logic itself. In the case of DB, we're using our logic combined with the verse mechanics and physics that the story established.

It's basically a bad example because in the scenario you give, the fact that these simple actions are "moves" and moves have "4 limited spots" screams either gameplay bullshit that's integrated to the plot nonsensically, or the less Meta "verse mechanics" thing. Whereas, in Dragon Ball, characters that are strong enough can resist certain kinds if hax as a verse mechanic, and when we don't know which hax can be broken via power, we gather evidence for it to see which ones do or don't.

While both have verse mechanics that can break one inference or another, with Dragon Ball, we're ignoring what logic and the evidence that the verse presents so that we don't break procedure. With Pokemon, we're following what the verse, despite logic and reason.

So, bad example Cal.

And yes. If Pokémon can walk, they should be able to bite, growl, low sweep, and do basically everything that common sense would dictate to not be a super special technique. You know how in Pokken, Pikachu can sweep low with its tail without being able to learn "Low Sweep" technically? Moves being limited like that are bullshit. If it was up to me, I would remove as many as I could and just list them as powers.

I'm sure we do, but "fighting type moves" should just mean that you know martial arts. There's no reason why a "pound" from piplup, presented as literally a taking your limb and hitting someone with it-- like a punch-- is able to deal more damage to an Eevee. Normal is weak to fighting because normal people don't have martial arts training. Doesn't work for animals, does it? But again, with POKÉMON, we follow the verse mechanics, even if they go against logic.

But, we can't follow DB's verse mechanics when they support logic?ƒÿò

 

[Amexim]

Cal, here's a Paradox for you.

Pokedex entries depict Pokémon doing things but don't have moves for it. But they also have moves for other things. So, if you can accept the Pokedex entries as a part of their Powers, why do you need confirmation that a rat can bite me? When are those small moves even relevant for listing, and going further, certain moves have "stat debuff effects" like string shot and growl, that don't even make sense. If we're debating Caterpie vs Sasuke, does Sasuke get his speed lowered, or does he get wrapped up and constricted...? If Pokémon can only use 4 moves, does that mean Ekans, a snake, doesn't know wrap? Are we only allowed to debate with legal movesets?

You tried to make a point, but all you did was demonstrate how your rigid restriction to proceedure and form make you out to be flawed. We're making an indexing site about how characters stack up to one another in hypothetical fights, but then we're ignoring how an actual fight works. I mean, with some things we can do that. With others, it makes no sense.

 

[Amexim]

Like, what if there's a fight where a Pokémon gets its limbs cut off, or a Glameow has to go low to knock someone off its feet-- and if it doesn't, it will lose the debate for some reason.

It just, loses because it doesn't have the "move" to swipe at someone's leg, or use its head to bite something?

If we're gonna take them into contexts that are more realistic, we need to treat them more realistically.

But either way, the point is, that was a bad example and it points out how we follow one set of rules and another on a case by case basis just fine.

 

[Akreious]

so... tl;dr

Dragon Ball's Verse Mechanics and Pokemon's Verse Mechanics are completely different and as such cannot be used to compare with eachother.

 

[I_s_u-c_l_o_n_e]

False equivalency. Goku Black is literally Goku with someone else piloting. This is people having an ability that no one else other than Buu and Gotenks did. We've never done this for any other verse, even ones with stupid amounts of abilities, and was a mistake to begin with. I'm proud of UMR for making this.

The fact still remains that this "technique" does not require any special power to do. It is literally just screaming really hard/loud. There's a reason why "Possibly" is there.

 

[AKM sama]

Anilaza's ability is to create portals which connect two points in space, inside the same dimension. Like his punch went from a point in WoV to another point in WoV.

Whereas, anybody who has used the power of shout, it was from one dimension to another, one of which was a pocket dimension. Like Buu, Gotenks and Vegeta doing it from RoSaT to Earth. Goku doing it to Hit's dimension. Kale doing it from Cocotte's dimension to WoV.

They are both different.

 

[Amexim]

Yeah, AKM is right. We don't have to do all hax with strength scaling either, just the ones that make sense.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Just to shed some light real quik, a better pokemon example than the tackle and pound stuff would be Shedninja and Ninjask ripping a hole in space-time through sheer power as well, yet no every mon and their mother stronger than them get the same thing too.

And yes, a thread was made on this comparing this and vice shout ages ago by me. However I dont have the time to look for it sadly.

 

[Amexim]

If it's through sheer power alone, and not some special power, then everyone stronger should get it, regardless of the verse. You're literally hand waving logic because of "muh showings" and it's ridiculous.

 

[Amexim]

Especially when hax that warps the world through raw stats can just be treated as the verse having weird physics that makes them do that. Therefore, characters from that verse are capable of those feats because of the energy necessary to do them. It would literally be the exact same thing as an AP feat, or something.

Like, running through time, or being ftl, we scale stats, and by scaling stats, whatever you're capable of doing when you have those stats transfers logically. If character X is strong enough to blow up a planet with his punches, character Y, who is stronger, should be capable of the same thing. If the verse treats "time travel" or "portal creation" as one of its phenomena that happen as a result of stats being at a certain level— the same way stats have to be at a certain level to blow up stuff, or go somewhere in x time— then it shouldn't be treated any different.

Therefore, these things aren't powers at all, they're just stuff that happens because of their world's physics.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Keep in mind that we don't give every tier 4 DC character time travel for being able to keep up with Superman or Flash. So your analogy doesn't work.

 

[Akreious]

The difference is Cal, you're blatantly ignoring the fact that Piccolo flat out says he just lacks the sheer power to do the Vice Shout which is further backed up when Gotenks goes SSJ3 Level to then perform said ability. So unlike DC to where you're comparing it to, the characters in-verse literally confirmed ALL YOU NEED is sheer power to do it. Just saying "Well they haven't shown it" makes no sense is nonsensical due to the fact that they never needed to do it again.

This is like saying Beerus can't replicate the Destructo Disc because he's never shown it, despite the fact that much weaker characters were capable of doing so no difficulty because "muh feats". Also do you know how notorious DC is for inconsistencies? And even then, I can actually recall very few times Flash or Superman went back in time that actually went well for them (Flashpoint anybody?). The crap ton of different writers and various levels of feats are rampantly wild and scaling with eachother of course wouldn't work; not the case with Dragon Ball as it's one writer with one explanation of how the feat works and legitimately displayed on-screen.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Firstly, according to Matt, as of Super, they have DC levels of inconsistencies due to the ToP. Secondly, note how Beerus doesn't have the Deateucto Disc as a technique listed. Thirdly, with the time travel thing not working out for them, how many times would they have Vice Shouted already by virtue of being DB characters known for their screaming? Fourthly, so what? It doesn't matter if all that's needed is sheer power. It's not something other people know how to do. If people like Lucemon or Hades don't have techniques for the same reason, why would pretty much all DB get away with that?

 

[Amexim]

1. So what? We just gonna trash the whole thing because of inconsistencies? If we're gonna do the stupid argument of pointing at other verses for examples— even though most of the time those examples only prove how bad overskeptically rating something can be, as it gets to be logically impossible, then we can just erase the whole wiki.

2. Ak probably meant that it's unlikely that Beerus is INCAPABLE of using the Destructo Disk— on some, he can't control his energy to make a disk, type shit. Even Vegeta pulled it off on Gohan in his great ape form after only seeing it once. It's ridiculous how we can scale other things in other verses the exact same way, but we get pissy in other cases— not even being able to recognize that it's valid.

3. Not giving DC characters equal to and faster than Flash the time travel is someone else's problem, though, generally speaking, most writers don't consider anyone who isn't blatantly on that level, to, well, be so, so of course there wouldn't be feats— but forget about the authors. You blatantly continue to refuse to extrapolate a little bit in this area, when the conclusion is sound. Even and especially when them being incapable of doing so would be nonsensical.

You saying that we don't do it in X verse for the same reasons with Dragon Ball— which we think are BS reasons— does not a good argument make. Especially when writers down even take into account the consequences of the feats of their stories anyway! Ever heard of every inconsistency and outlier on the author's part ever? Remember how Toriyama forgot that Saiyans had tails— for Goten and Trunks, and just made up an excuse for why they don't have them?

How are you going to use bad writing to support an already faulty premise? You make no sense, but you refuse to listen.

This entire train of thought is like saying Itachi wouldn't be able to Surpress Naruto's nine tails because he hasn't shown doing it specifically. What, do I need to see Rick actually add 2 and 2 together to confirm he can do math? Or if someone in Pokémon is capable of coming up with a basic battle strategy— and they're mid-tier in the verse by all means— i can't assume another character of equal or superior skill is capable of replicating that feat?

And 4. Its literally screaming loudly, and we see similar shit to it happen all the time. Like Goku busting through Hit's Time dimension in their rematch. Or Vegeta destroying the Time Chamber. It's not exactly a "scream", but they do use their raw power to cause spatial distortions enough to basically do the same thing. The reason why they don't is the same reason why Dragon Ball characters and characters in fiction and general basically made us create the concept of AP to ignore the fact that any attack capable of destroying a planet should always destroy a planet. It's on the AP page.

Cal, stop trying to draw false equivalencies. You're only giving me more things to say, "Hey, see why it doesn't make sense?" To.

Cal, stop trying to use bad writing to justify ratings and analysis that don't make sense. Or do you believe saying Goku is mountain level at best, due to his attacks being inconsistent with how much they destroy— making all like, 7 feats used for anything higher "outliers" by technical definitions?

No. You don't. Because you're actually not a moron. You're capable of orchestrating an entire scaling based around shit with so little to go off of.

 

[Amexim]

Like, the Beerus thing.

If he needed to use the Destructo Disk, he probably could. It's not like Going Super Saiyan, where it's impossible if you're not a Saiyan (with S-cells). It's a technique that comes from manipulating the Ki you control in a specific way. And apparently, Krillin doesn't have to teach it to you.

Same with Solar Flare. No one was TAUGHT it, they just figured it out by themselves. Whether or not Beerus can do this is contingent on whether or not he's familiar enough with the technique— as in he was paying attention to the one time Krillin used it in front of him.

That's like saying Goku couldn't fire an energy blast out of his elbow when we've seen him release explosive waves from every inch of his body.

We can extrapolate what these characters are capable of beyond what they have shown. That doesn't mean we give Beerus all the techniques available, but the simple shit like making a barrier with Ki— or making a slashing blade or sharp edge with Ki is only a matter of the SCALABLE SKILL of KI CONTROL— since it's done exclusively via that and nothing else.

So if he had to, he theoretically could. Doesn't even matter enough to be on his page. If a character has only been on screen using their TK to throw a rock on one direction, why would you make the argument from ignorance to say that "we don't know if they can do the other stuff that would be intuitive to think they could do".

 

[Akreious]

To simplify Cal, what you're saying is that the likes of Grand Priest is incapable of using Destructo Disc because he's never shown it or Whis is unable to perform a Kamehameha because he's never showed the capacity to do so even though these examples are directly correlated with Power and Control; which can be applied to the Vice Shout as it's literally done via sheer power.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And that returns to my Shedninja and Ninjask example, which again, is the same thing. They used sheer power from power based moves to rip open a hole in space-time. Yet we don't instantly give portal creation to Mew, Mewtwo, Kyogre, or any pokemon (sans the obvious god tiers) vehemently stronger than them. Again, even a thread for this, comparing it to vice shout, was made and if it can't be given to Pokemon by going under the exact same principle, DB shouldnt suddenly get a free pass.

Also, another issue I see with this is the assumption that "screaming" is an actual requirement to generate these portals when characters stronger by a ridiculous amount should be able to make portals either way, if they actually could in the first place. For instance, Beerus is stronger than Buu, Gotenks and Piccolo combined with just a meer fart, let alone any actual fighting power he has. In other words, his fart>>>>>their full powered vice shout. Even if he isn't literally screaming (which as Cal noted, is done A LOT in DB for reasons), there shouldnt be any logical reason why Beerus can't generate portals, if he actually could, just by powering up as a bare minimum. Why someone needs to scream when the person mentioned is literally stronger than anything Z has and then some by an incredible degree makes no sense at all.

 

[Amexim]

We literally just went over this.

A. We should give ALL legends possible portal recreation if it makes sense, and the reason why Shedinja can do it is soley because of raw power! You're not actually going against my point. It's like pulling up examples of when and where a criminal did something wrong when we're procecuting him. You're only showing that the fact that you refuse to extrapolate any further based on LOGIC. Which is the problem. Here. DB isn't getting a pass, you all need to apply this to more Verses, or at the very least, review it all as a case by case basis. When shit is blatant, like this, you go with it. And when it isn't, you don't. Simple.

Why is it so hard to even earn a "possibly" for anything on this cite?

B. The only way your argument for your second paragraph works is if you assume that there must be some actual cause besides what was clearly demonstrated. That's adding more assumptions to the situation bordering on headcanon to explain away something as simple as a plot hole or an inconsistency, when you could just recognize it as such and continue on, like you do with many outliers and obvious PIS. EdgarDoom literally tried to argue that Fusion based Characters have a "magical quality" to achieve the portal creation, when there's NO evidence for that besides coincidence, and the idea that it's strength based is almost literally stated in the series.

You're basically saying that, despite all evidence for such a thing-- including, AKM mentioning "Vegeta doing it from RoSaT to Earth. Goku doing it to Hit's dimension. Kale doing it from Cocotte's dimension to WoV."-- that there HAS to be some unexplained special trait to the people who can do it, when there's -100% evidence for your case. This is irrational.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Snip

Again, that's why the possible is there in the first place. It's not definite, it's a possibility. They haven't shown the ability to do it, but it is possible for them to do it because it stated and implied in the scene that the ability was activated through a certain level of power.

And the ability not happening every time a character screams in Dragon Ball is clearly just PIS or a lack of consistency. It's poor writing in Dragon Ball, not a new concept by any means.

If there is a scenario in Pokemon where characters create a portal through nothing but sheer power that is just as clear-cut with its dialogue as this example from Dragon Ball, then it seems that Possible Portal Creation should be given to the Pokemon that scale above said characters.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Considering the sheer number of instances DB characters scream, power up and let forth their power, arguing stuff like PIS isnt going to go very far at all.

Either way, my final word on this for now is im agreeing with the OP.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That's not how possible works.

 

[Amexim]

Again, this is what "possibly" is for.

If a character is comparable to the flash in Speed-- specifically the exact speed he used to travel through time-- or is superior to the flash-- he should get a "possibly" for this power-- so long as we have a reasonable amount of certainty up to and including a guarantee that the flash accomplished time travel through raw speed and not through some special trait or ability that is exclusive to the Flash. If they haven't demonstrated that, then we give them a "possibly", both because there's no reason why they can't do it that doesn't revolve around the writers forgetting that they can, and that there's plenty of evidence to support the idea that they theoretically could.

If Shedinja is capable of cutting space with its claws via sheer force and it's not hyperbole or an ability or trait exclusive to Shedinja, then all things from Pokémon stronger than Shedinja should be able to do it as well. That's like saying Volcanion can't replicate Blastoise's water jet effect because he has never done it-- even though, in this scenario, the whole thing is "physics" based and not "individual power" based-- its something that happens as a result of the physics of their verse/verse mechanics.

The only reason why this shit is inconsistent in the first place is because the writers don't care. If we take everything that's clearly BS, we would have Goku being unable to break steel-- ignore the constant Destruction of Star level matter-- that Dyspo is the first light speed character-- ignore all calcs and scaling, because they're made "inconsistent" now by the statement about Dyspo. Goku is bullet level. Naruto can't survive being stabbed.

There are a LOT of things writers overlook about their own verse. We need to stop this constant "what about-ism" shit, because we end up treating EVERY Verse harsher than it needs to be, which makes us accept irrational conclusions for the sake of procedure.

Instead of asking, "why should DB get a pass?" Ask, "why are we so hard on every other verse?" Because it seems to me that we compare situations a lot when complaining about ratings while ignoring context for why people had given different rulings. It's also a fallacy I think.

Or do we just, you know, not care?

 

[Amexim]

Oh, so, Kukui, we can't argue PIS about Dragon Ball or absolutely anything anymore then. The sheer amount of times a Pokémon fights a legendary in the anime and doesn't get stomped complete has "too many instances". The sheer amount of times Goku hasn't blown up Earth when using his power happens "too often" for PIS and dumb Writer nonsense to apply.

Cal, explain how you get a "possibly" with a power, and let me remind you that we're talking about Character X having a similar trait with similar aspects as character Y-- and character Y can preform hax @ through that means.

If we substitute that similar trait with for intelligence, Character X and Character Y should be able to preform that Hax if that hax is preformed through intelligence. Even if someone is "so smart, they warp reality".

Anyone further up in the series intellegence wise should be able to do that, if it was really just through intellectual prowess.

It really is simple. The only reason why DB hasn't done this over and over again in the EXACT same way-- you know, we got Vegeta and Goku doing similar stuff-- is because of no one writing the story carring enough. Or do we pull a screwattack and call Goku's Shockwaves an outlier because he never did it again? Can Goku just not create Shockwaves?

There's skepticism, and then there's denial, and between them is a refusal to believe in ones ability to extrapolate any further based on the afforded information. I can't even tell which this is.

 

[Akreious]

Vice Shout is done via sheer power, so logically any character stronger should theoretically be capable of doing it as well since they're hilariously superior to the person that indeed performed the Vice Shout by power. That's why there's a possibly in front; it's a technique that's explicitly stated to ONLY rely on power and it's just that these characters never displayed it on-screen because they never needed to. It's not a special technique that requires special training, it's literally just breaking through dimensional walls with power.

For example; Why do we assume Android 21 would be incapable of copying Vice Shout via sheer power even though she was able to replicate Instant Transmission, a much more "advanced" technique just by looking at it once?

Seriously, your arguments are just denial even though it's almost 100% CONFIRMED that it's done via sheer power, which logic would dictate any character stronger would be able to do such a feat as well. This is further compounded by the fact that DBS characters actually perform very similar feats, such as Anilaza punching through space to harm people at weird angles and Vegeta blowing up the Hyperbolic Time Chamber; basically a super Vice Shout feat.

In short; if you can provide evidence that these characters can in fact NOT do Vice Shout then I'm willing to concede; otherwise I'm standing by the opinion that any character stronger than Gotenks and Buu would be capable of doing the Vice Shout. We have statements AND evidence that any character stronger than Buu and Gotenks would be able to perform the Vice Shout with no other evidence stating otherwise.

 

[Amexim]

And, no, the writers forgetting that they can do these feats doesn't count as proof that the CANNOT do Vice Shout.