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Dragon Ball Heroes and Xenoverse - Downgrade about statistics

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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
So regarding those scans, can someone explain why Vegeta needs Chronoa to send them all to a point in history when the argument being made is that they can all fly through time? Like, if Vegeta is immeasurable, then why does he need someone else to do the time traveling for him? This seems like a much more blatant confirmation of characters lacking the ability to literally fly through time than the portal stuff imo
Click to expand...
It's like saying "he can't have infinite speed, he uses teleportation to cross large finite distances!!!"
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
So regarding those scans, can someone explain why Vegeta needs Chronoa to send them all to a point in history when the argument being made is that they can all fly through time? Like, if Vegeta is immeasurable, then why does he need someone else to do the time traveling for him? This seems like a much more blatant confirmation of characters lacking the ability to literally fly through time than the portal stuff imo
WQ5ltuk.png
Click to expand...
Because he just became a time patroller like 2 seconds ago. How would he know what he's doing?
 
Theglassman12 said:
I literally never said they opened a portal in the middle of the fight, I said them flying away to who knows where doesn’t mean they flew through time with speed alone, especially when we know how they time travel.

No I just don’t find them concrete as nothing implies they were moving through time with speed alone. Saying “you don’t like it” isn’t an argument.
Click to expand...
I was never saying that meant they flew through time with speed alone, I was saying that they aren't going to be opening portals in the middle of a fight. That was the point the entire time. They have never used portals during the middle of a fight.

You repeating 'I don't find' isn't an argument. The feat is Chorona flew from outside of time to save someone mid fight, there is no portal shown in that scene. If you don't find that concrete then sorry the conversation ends here because this won't go anywhere.

I'll leave future discussion to someone else.
 
Guacamolefletcher said:
It's like saying "he can't have infinite speed, he uses teleportation to cross large finite distances!!!"
Click to expand...
He's evidently very impatient with Chronoa and wants her to send them to their destination ASAP. If he could just fly there himself, why didn't he just, y'know, do that? It would literally be faster and more convenient for him to just do it himself (from his perspective, anyways).

XXBenShapiroXx said:
Because he just became a time patroller like 2 seconds ago. How would he know what he's doing?
Click to expand...
Why do you need special time patrol training to be immeasurably fast? Wouldn't the logic of "Vegeta can't fly through time because he just joined the time patrol and doesn't know what he's doing" apply to literally every other character who isn't in the time patrol?

XXBenShapiroXx said:
I was never saying that meant they flew through time with speed alone, I was saying that they aren't going to be opening portals in the middle of a fight. That was the point the entire time. They have never used portals during the middle of a fight.
Click to expand...
damn then how'd these scans of characters opening portals mid-fight get here
pKTLdy4.png

IuANsQg.png
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
He's evidently very impatient with Chronoa and wants her to send them to their destination ASAP. If he could just fly there himself, why didn't he just, y'know, do that? It would literally be faster and more convenient for him to just do it himself (from his perspective, anyways).


Why do you need special time patrol training to be immeasurably fast? Wouldn't the logic of "Vegeta can't fly through time because he just joined the time patrol and doesn't know what he's doing" apply to literally every other character who isn't in the time patrol?


damn then how'd these scans of characters opening portals mid-fight get here
pKTLdy4.png

IuANsQg.png
Click to expand...
1. How would he know where to go? This isn't a speed issue, where does Vegeta even know to go? You created an argument I didn't make. Vegeta has no idea where the **** to go. That's it.

2. Those scans don't show people use portals to intercept attacks before they hit. There is obviously a lull in the fight. Show me a scan of them opening a portal to block an attack.
 
XXBenShapiroXx said:
1. How would he know where to go? This isn't a speed issue, where does Vegeta even know to go? You created an argument I didn't make. Vegeta has no idea where the **** to go. That's it.
Click to expand...
Because there is literally a scroll on the table showing the history that's been messed with. Like. we are very clearly shown an image of where these characters are meant to go. But more importantly, Vegeta was literally there when the original event took place. He should know where it is because he already went there. He should not need Chronoa to babysit his ass. And yet, here we are.

XXBenShapiroXx said:
2. Those scans don't show people use portals to intercept attacks before they hit. There is obviously a lull in the fight. Show me a scan of them opening a portal to block an attack.
Click to expand...
sure lol
EuRSuQU.png

s4hC1df.png
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
He's evidently very impatient with Chronoa and wants her to send them to their destination ASAP. If he could just fly there himself, why didn't he just, y'know, do that? It would literally be faster and more convenient for him to just do it himself (from his perspective, anyways).

Why do you need special time patrol training to be immeasurably fast? Wouldn't the logic of "Vegeta can't fly through time because he just joined the time patrol and doesn't know what he's doing" apply to literally every other character who isn't in the time patrol?
Click to expand...
Could there be an inconsistency between the games and manga adaptions in this regard?
 
I still agree with Dagoth's interpretation given they mentioned how it's consistent for characters to keep up with Dark Dragon Balls using Ki flight which also in turn scales to combat speed.
 
Okay, so Vegeta needing Chronoa's help to time travel is an outlier then?
 
Reading through the doc, and I have to say
1. "Immeasureable speed allows you to travel between space-times" is actually wrong to begin with, it allows you to travel through time with sheer speed not across another universe, that is infinite speed depending on the size of the universe, it can be lower.
Also the other arguement that is based on the first one which is
2. "If they had immeasureable speed they would not be using portals to travel to other space-times"
That argument is just weird, I can walk to my work place just fine, but I still prefer to drive.
3. Hit time skip working is not really an anti-feat, if they had solid immeasureable speed
That said, I agree with the Doc they have not solid or valid immeasureable speed

The only thing I am seeing here that they are using as feat is the traveling through universes, and unless the space of the universe is higher Dimensional space or if a Higher Dimensional space separates them, that is infinite speed. (If the universes are infinite in size, lower if the universe is not)
 
Pain_to12 said:
Who or what are evil ornaments?
Also this just says that they gathered from different eras of time.
It did not mention how, can you provide more contexts?
Click to expand...
The DDB are the evil ornaments. The DDB's flew and scattered across different ages/eras of time which is why they needed to collect them from those different eras of time that they flew into
 
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Quantu said:
They're stated to have flown/flew in every form of media relating to the feat, which is briefly shown visually in the animated PV for the game. No mention of portals, no mention of teleportation. Statements count too and are not contradicted
Click to expand...
They just flew physically

Edit: Too slow smh
 
Dagoth_OwO said:
The DDB hosts who merged with the DDB's and got amped by them, and those who scale to them.
Click to expand...
That would be wrong, merging with a ball that traveled through time does not mean you have immeasurable speed if you did not perform any feat even close to that after the amp.
 
sanicspood said:
Mira and towa all visibly see it literally flying to another era
Click to expand...
Yeah but is not shown how.

If you mean the "chase", that scan cannot be really used, as is not even a translation, but some images with descriptions telling what is happening.
 
Pain_to12 said:
That would be wrong, merging with a ball that traveled through time does not mean you have immeasurable speed if you did not perform any feat even close to that after the amp.
Click to expand...
It’s should scale because of reasons pointed out by Dagoth and DDM

Dagoth:
Flight speed in DB scales to combat speed. It was confirmed in the Daizenshuu that flight speed is related to the person's level of skill and the size of their ki, and it's literally just a basic ki manipulation technique. Funnily enough, even the wiki's own page for the DBZ manga actually notes how combat speed is superior to flight speed in DB, which would especially apply to the DDB hosts (Plus the obvious fact that these characters can fight while flying in the air and all).

Dark Dragon Medeus
It's consistently stated that combat speed/Attack speed are significantly above flight speed since a ki blast is just releasing energy in it's purest form where as flight speed is using energy to move an object with more mass (The body to be specific). It's like using the same Kinetic energy to shoot a pebble vs throwing large boulder; same energy yield but one has more mass and thus much less velocity.
 
Ss3micah said:
It’s should scale because of reasons pointed out by Dagoth and DDM

Dagoth:
Flight speed in DB scales to combat speed. It was confirmed in the Daizenshuu that flight speed is related to the person's level of skill and the size of their ki, and it's literally just a basic ki manipulation technique. Funnily enough, even the wiki's own page for the DBZ manga actually notes how combat speed is superior to flight speed in DB, which would especially apply to the DDB hosts (Plus the obvious fact that these characters can fight while flying in the air and all).

Dark Dragon Medeus
It's consistently stated that combat speed/Attack speed are significantly above flight speed since a ki blast is just releasing energy in it's purest form where as flight speed is using energy to move an object with more mass (The body to be specific). It's like using the same Kinetic energy to shoot a pebble vs throwing large boulder; same energy yield but one has more mass and thus much less velocity.
Click to expand...
You did not tackle my argument.
Where in the amp did it say they gained immeasurable speed.
They saw a ball that once traveled through time countless years ago, and merged with it and you guys claim that they gained the speed without
 
Pain_to12 said:
You did not tackle my argument.
Where in the amp did it say they gained immeasurable speed.
They saw a ball that once traveled through time countless years ago, and merged with it and you guys claim that they gained the speed without
Click to expand...
I’ll just outline the basic idea here

DDB possess X amounts of Ki
The Hosts possesses Y amounts of Ki
DDB Warriors possesses both the DDB Ki and the Hosts Ki so DDB Warriors = X + Y amounts of Ki

All Flight Speed in the DB Franchise relates back to Ki Manipulation. The amount of Ki one has it what allows the user in question to move at their rate of speed

So X amounts of Ki is what gives the DDB Immeasurable Flight Speed
DDB Warriors posses X and Y amounts of Ki as they gain access to the DDB Ki which fuses with them and is reflected in their Aura (which is of course produced by Ki)

The argument here is that
If DDB can use X amount of Ki to perform Immeasurable flight speed
Then DDB warriors can do the same as they possess the exact same Quality and Quantity of Ki as the DDB plus their own
And of course Combat Speed scales above Flight speed

If the rebuttal here is that because there is no direct statement of DDB Warriors gaining the DDB Ki made them get immeasurable speed then you have ignored the Mechanics of Speed and Ki relation that the Verse Outlines and that the Wiki itself has accepted and chose to accept a direct statement over In-Verse Descriptions of how Ki and Speed are supposed to work

It’s almost the same as saying Vegito/Gogeta are not above and are possibly the same level of speed as Goku and Vegeta’s Level of Speed because Fusion Multiplier/Amp statements only ever mention power directly and not speed directly

Anyways I’m just expressing and explaining a point made by someone else
More scans and context can be provided by other supporters
 
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Ss3micah said:
I’ll just outline the basic idea here

DDB possess X amounts of Ki
The Hosts possesses Y amounts of Ki
DDB Warriors possesses both the DDB Ki and the Hosts Ki so DDB Warriors = X + Y amounts of Ki

All Flight Speed in the DB Franchise relates back to Ki Manipulation. The amount of Ki one has it what allows the user in question to move at their rate of speed

So X amounts of Ki is what gives the DDB Immeasurable Flight Speed
DDB Warriors posses X and Y amounts of Ki as they gain access to the DDB Ki which fuses with them and is reflected in their Aura (which is of course produced by Ki)

The argument here is that
If DDB can use X amount of Ki to perform Immeasurable flight speed
Then DDB warriors can do the same as they possess the exact same Quality and Quantity of Ki as the DDB plus their own
And of course Combat Speed scales above Flight speed

If the rebuttal here is that because there is no direct statement of DDB Warriors gaining the DDB Ki made them get immeasurable speed then you have ignored the Mechanics of Speed and Ki relation that the Verse Outlines and that the Wiki itself has accepted and chose to accept a direct statement over In-Verse Descriptions of how Ki and Speed are supposed to work

It’s almost the same as saying Vegito/Gogeta are not above and are possibly the same level of speed as Goku and Vegeta’s Level of Speed because Fusion Multiplier/Amp statements only ever mention power and not speed

Anyways I’m just expressing and explaining a point made by someone else
More scans and context can be provided by other supporters
Click to expand...
These is even weirder than the previous one, first can you determine the amount of Ki used to travel through time?
Secondly, is there anyone who used the balls to amp themselves and physically traveled through time?
Thirdly, Is the output of those who merged with the ball enough for such travels?
Lastly, These arguments are just based on shaky assumptions and have no real standing.

There is no immeasurable speed feat here aside from the balls traveling through time, merging with the ball does not grant you such speed without statements or feats.
Let us not forget that others that did not get the ball amp fought someone who did, so which amp did they get that boosted their own speed to match the immeasurable speed? or we will ignore that too?
As the only way they can get an amp that will match immeasurable speed is if they were immeasurable speed to begin with, which they have no feat of prior. And the basis of immeasurable speed is the balls traveling so there is that too.

Anyway let me see what the verse supporters have to say
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
He's evidently very impatient with Chronoa and wants her to send them to their destination ASAP. If he could just fly there himself, why didn't he just, y'know, do that? It would literally be faster and more convenient for him to just do it himself (from his perspective, anyways).
Click to expand...
Again, that would entail travel stamina he himself may not have.
 
How exactly would stamina be a factor for someone who can naturally move through time? Flying has never been draining for Vegeta why would it all of a sudden be draining for him now?
 
Honestly at this point, if the shit with Vegeta isn't properly addressed, we should at least start looking at the possibility of immeasurable being an outlier/only getting a 'possibly' rating. Even if the feats themselves are 100% solid, that still won't remove other contradictions, which should always be taken into account.

Vegeta knew where to go, he supposedly has the ability to go there whenever he pleases, is visibly impatient with the only other person who could send him there, yet is somehow unwilling or unable to just fly there himself. What exactly should we consider this if not an anti-feat?
 
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