Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 32

[I_s_u-c_l_o_n_e]

I gotta agree with Meleenium. If Goku had kept slowly powering up Bergamo to where he could fight him at his max power the Grand Priest would have easily caught on to it and called Goku out. He's no idiot. I doubt he'd be fooled by that.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

But how was staying in SSJ NOT risky? He deliberately fed him power in a lower form to make him stronger. That is a far greater offender in terms of throwing a fight than letting an attack hit that maybe shouldn't have.

Tbh feeding him blows that he knew he would be able to take is absolutely throwing. If Bergamo managed to beat Goku's SSBKKx10 Kamehameha with the energy from constant blows from SSJ, it would have been an equal or greater throw than consistently amping up the power., yet Daishinkan didn't call Goku out for staying in that form so long or for clearly just making Bergamo stronger. Whis even explains that exact situation afterwords (Goku wanted to make Bergamo stronger by staying in SSJ), so Daishinkan absolutely knew what he was doing and just didn't call him out on it. I don't see why not jumping forms would be a greater offender.

 

[I_s_u-c_l_o_n_e]

Because it was clear that Goku wasn't powering him up to so that he could be a better match for him, he was powering him up because he had seen that by Bergamo growing larger that caused him to have more blind spots. He was using it to his advantage.

Even if we don't consider that, this was still only SSj1. Had he continued this for SSj2, SSj3, SSjB, etc. the Grand Priest would have definitely thought something was going on.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@Assalt

You know what? Maybe it WAS risky. Quite frankly, anything Goku did in that fight was probably a risk. I'm sure whatever Goku was doing, Daishinkan was keeping a close eye on his actions to see if he's trying to win or not. He very well could have had some suspicion that Goku was trying to throw when he was SSJ, but it probably wasn't enough of a suspision to call him out on it.

But in Goku's perspective, I think it would be foolish for him to think "Well he's not calling me out while I'm SSJ. I bet I can get away with throwing the match". I think that would be foolish. Throwing the match is still a big risk in the end. There's just no getting around it.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

But he did power him up to be a better match. It is directly stated as such.

Whis: "He gave as much power as possible then defeated him with an even greater super power. He really does love fighting on the edge."

Whis knew that he deliberately fed him power in SSJ. Daishinkan knew too, he didn't call it out. Goku didn't even try to make it look like he was trying to beat him 100%.

Edit: @Melee

I am not denying it is a risk. But you are being selfish not to just try to take the risk and save so many lives. Also, Daishinkan essentially addressed how Goku just doesn't give any cares about anyone. "However, Goku-san, If you should hold back because you don't want to be erased..." The use of "you" is very important here. He could have easily said everyone/everything or even just universe after "you" (If you should hold back because you don't want your universe/the universes/your friends to be erased...) but addressed Goku directly. He acknowledges the lack of importance Goku has placed on the universes' survival.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@Assalt

Yes, Goku was deliberately trying to power him up. But again, he did it because he's Goku, and he gets a high off of fighting tough opponents. But his intent was still to win. Not to throw the match. I think Daishinkan is intelligent enough to recognize this.

Again, Daishinkan would not have a problem with Goku trying to make the fight challenging for the sake of a thrill. He explicitely stated that Goku can't hold back with the intent on losing. He knew the entire time that Goku was trying to win, despite Goku powering him up for the sake of a thrill.

 

[I_s_u-c_l_o_n_e]

Which would likely imply that Goku knew that what he did was risky. Which if that's the case makes sense that he wouldn't do it again with his other forms as he wouldn't want to get called out.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Melee My first statement of the deliberateness of Goku's power up was toward I s u-c l o n e, not you. I forgot to direct it. My fault.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@Assalt

Considering how big the risk is, I don't see how it's selfish. Taking the risk and not taking the risk can both be seen as f'd up. And if Goku took the risk, and failed, then it would legitimately be all his fault. At the end of the day, the fact that universes are getting erased, still isn't his fault at all and he still already saved one universe.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Melee well either way you view it, Goku's attitude is still terrible. Instead of apologizing to Bergamo for beating him or at least showing sympathy, he belittles him and says to Toppo that he didn't satisfy him. It is so wrong on so many levels.

 

[AllanSaiyan]

Wasn't Bergamo the same guy that made Goku look like the bad guy. Why should he show Bergamo any sympathy.

 

[Ryukama]

@Allan Maybe because talking shit about someone doesn't mean they deserve to have themself and everyone/everything they've ever loved or known to be destroyed.

Even if Bergamo was a douche to Goku for rather understandable reasons, Goku should've shown some shread of sympathy for what is likely to happen to him. Or at least sympathy for the countless innocents unrelated to Bergamo that will die as a result.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because he believed Goku was the bad guy, and Goku hasn't shown to be otherwise to them. It's not like the demons in the Dark Tournament who were being d***s to Yusuke only because he was human.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

"Oh, you said I am bad for blatantly disregarding advice from a multi-million year old god of destruction on matters I can't even begin to comprehend, indirectly resulting in the deaths of entire universes? Well screw you and your entire universe then! Better yet, screw everyone's universe except for my own!"

Yeah, that is totally what Bergamo deserved for scapegoating Goku. Bergamo is 100% in the right in my eyes. Not only are Goku's actions despicable/stupid, Bergamo has never seen Goku do anything that isn't narcissistic and callous. His outburst against Goku at the end is understandable considering what he suspects will now happen to him and all the anger from his now justified (in his eyes) disdain of Goku.

Bergamo is a real hero. Even if he scapegoated Goku, he stood up to beings who could flick him into nonexistence effortlessly just to try to save all the universes. That's right. He asked Zen'o to stop the universal destruction before he knew that he couldn't beat Goku. It wasn't a plea for mercy on death's door, he had no idea that he didn't stand a chance against the other fighters. He is acting for the entire DB multiverse, not just himself. He even looks sad and hurt when Zen'o initially says that it is already decided. Bergamo is legitimately my favorite character in the series thusfar.

 

[AllanSaiyan]

@Ryu I know that but still after all what Bergamo said to Goku and turning everyone(God's and Kaioshins)against him. I don't see why Goku should feel sorry for him and besides the universes was gonna get destroyed even if Goku didn't ask for the tournament. Atleast they have a fight chance now.

 

[I_s_u-c_l_o_n_e]

"Oh, you said I am bad for blatantly disregarding advice from a multi-million year old god of destruction on matters I can't even begin to comprehend, indirectly resulting in the deaths of entire universes? Well screw you and your entire universe then! Better yet, screw everyone's universe except for my own!"
Yeah, that is totally what Bergamo deserved for scapegoating Goku.

Goku asking about the tournament was not the reason why they were going to being destroyed, they were already going to be destroyed.

 

[Ryukama]

Just a reminder that if Bergamo succeeded he would've saved vastly more people in one fight than Goku has in his entire life

 

[Thebluedash]

Wasn't Bergamo the same guy that made Goku look like the bad guy. Why should he show Bergamo any sympathy.

Bergamo was 100% justified in his views on Goku. Goku was nonchalan and even seems to be excited about the upcoming tournament where 7 universes will perish.

 

[Ryukama]

@Ryu I know that but still after all what Bergamo said to Goku and turning everyone(God's and Kaioshins)against him. I don't see why Goku should feel sorry for him

Again, saying mean gossip about someone doesn't make them deserving of the hell that's going to happen to Bergamo. If Goku had basic empathy, he'd feel sorry for Bergamo even if he mistreated him.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

The problem is in this situation is that the other universes don't know that Goku never wanted the universe destruction to occur. Combine that with his laid back attitude he's presented and well...

In all honesty, the situation spiraled out of Goku's control long ago.

 

[I_s_u-c_l_o_n_e]

Bergamo was 100% justified in his views on Goku. Goku was nonchalan and even seems to be excited about the upcoming tournament where 7 universes will perish.

Considering he can't do anything about it, the only thing he can do is fight. Of course he's going to enjoy it considering he's a Saiyan and all.

 

[PostmodernD]

Just a reminder that if Bergamo succeeded he would've saved vastly more people in one fight than Goku has in his entire life

That would have been pretty funny. Oh well. Still really liked that fight.

 

[I_s_u-c_l_o_n_e]

The problem is in this situation is that the other universes don't know that Goku never wanted the universe destruction to occur. Combine that with his laid back attitude he's presented and well...
In all honesty, the situation spiraled out of Goku's control long ago.

There's a bit of an inconsistency there. I mean no more than 10 minutes could have passed since it was revealed that the Universes were going to be erased no matter what by Whis, or the Grand Priest I can't remember. Then here comes Bergamo putting all the blame on Goku and for some reason the other gods take his word over Whis/Grand Priest

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@ I s u-c l o n e

It is actually pretty accurate from a psychological perspective. People will shove away an original notion if they are given something/someone to direct their anger/energy toward. People will go great lengths to blame something.

 

[I_s_u-c_l_o_n_e]

I would be inclined to agree if the one who had said that the Universes were already going to be destroyed was another mortal. However, consdering Whis/the Grand Priest are the ones that said it, who are both gods, I just find it a little bit harder to believe. Hell, the Grand Priest is, presumably, the father of all the angels and the assistant to Zeno. Why they would just choose to ignore his words and choose to believe Bergamo is just a tad bit of a stretch.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Because they may have forgotten, overlooked, or actively pushed it away in favor of having a scapegoat. This isn't the most infrequent thing ever. Also being a god isn't exactly an elevated position in DBS. The gods are stronger and have powers, but still retain plenty of flaws. The supreme being is a child for crying out loud lol

 

[Thebluedash]

@ I s u-c l o n e I'm not sure how that disproves my point. "Oh he's just a sayian, so he's like that". It doesn't matter, it still a jerk move for Goku to not show any remorse of sorts. Plus, the other universes don't even really know what sayians are so their angers are still justified. Even if they did know that sayians loves fighting it still doesn't matter, because it shows that Goku is only fighting crazed and barely cares for their lives. People being mad at Goku is completely reasonable.

 

[I_s_u-c_l_o_n_e]

forgetting something that was said literally minutes before seems pretty far fetched.

You make a good point, but again the Grand Priest, along with being in the position that he is, is also the father of the other angels and extremely wise. I just don't see how it makes sense. Had this person been anyone else I would 100% agree with you.

 

[I_s_u-c_l_o_n_e]

@ I s u-c l o n e I'm not sure how that disproves my point. "Oh he's just a sayian, so he's like that". It doesn't matter, it still a jerk move for Goku to not show any remorse of sorts. Plus, the other universes don't even really know what sayians are so their angers are still justified. Even if they did know that sayians loves fighting it still doesn't matter, because it shows that Goku is only fighting crazed and barely cares for their lives. People being mad at Goku is completely reasonable.

You're also missing the point that there's nothing he can do about it. He literally can not do anything to change this. The only thing that Goku can do in this situation is fight, and him being a Saiyan he's going to enjoy it. I'm not saying he isn't selfish, but him worrying about the negatives is not in his character.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I think the point is that Goku's just s***ty in character because of how he's written in things that don't involve fighting. Like consequences.

 

[Thebluedash]

I think the point is that Goku's just s***ty in character because of how he's written in things that don't involve fighting. Like consequences.

ye rip.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@I s u-c l o n e

You can't justify all this with "He is a saiyan." If a race exists that just absolutely loves causing torment and suffering in babies before violently killing him, that is still inexcusable and evil. So what if they are already predisposed to liking it? It is still not right.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

This is why they all think Goku is at fault.

1. They didn't like Goku from the first moment he called Zen'o, Zen-chan. I do believe that things like 'impudent scum" and "disrespectful" were tossed around. So that got the crowd against him from the get-go.

2. Goku revealed that they all got called here for the Tournament of Power because he told Zen'o wants to fight strong guys. Now, that points a bullseye on his head for everything else that will happen.

3. Then the Grand Priest reveals that Zen'o and he thought that this would be a perfect oppurtunity to get rid of more the universes.

4. Goku beats Bergamo, which means that the Tournament happens and Universes will die.

5. Goku never makes any apologies or overtures that he never intended this to happen.

Basically, all those points swing it in the other Universes view that Goku is to blame. He appears reckless, powerful and doesn't care that other Universes are going to die. What they don't know is that he was as shocked as everyone else when the Grand Priest revealed what happens to the losers. He wanted to go and talk to Zen'o and the Grand Priest but was told that he'd be erased on the spot. So there goes trying to nip this all in the bud.

Goku, being Goku, has already moved on and accepted that all of this is gonna go down, so his mindset is on the fight and he always aims to win.

Goku is not to blame for all of this starting but his lack of remorse for everyone who got pulled into this, is deplorable.

Beerus was right, he's been to lenient.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@I s u-c l o n e
You can't justify all this with "He is a saiyan." If a race exists that just absolutely loves causing torment and suffering in babies before violently killing him, that is still inexcusable and evil. So what if they are already predisposed to liking it? It is still not right.

Some predatory animals are predisposed to running after anything that moves and killing it, even if they don't end up eating it later. Is that evil? Housecats even do this.

If you're inclined to say "well they can't help it" as an excuse, well I submit to you that Goku, as a Saiyan, probably can't help it. Presumably, the vast majority of Saiyans that have lived before him were way worse, and that's just their nature. In real life though, we (most likely) don't have deities watching over lifeforms and regulating the quality of life and how they evolve. But in Dragon Ball, that is the case.

It's not Goku's fault that Saiyans evolved this way, and if evolution in Dragon Ball is anything like how it is in real life, they probably needed this trait at one point for survival. Kaioshin and Beerus are responsible for regulating life in the Universe, and they allowed Goku to exist. If they don't like the consequences of this, then they are the ones that are responsible, and they really have no one to blame but themselves.

That aside though, I actually think Goku does care, he's just not outwardly showing it. I think he's consciously choosing not to. And I think there will be some sort of twist at the end of this arc. Not sure what though, but it may be something that redeems Goku's character, and he may end up saving all the universes somehow.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

There is a big difference between animals and fully-functional intelligent beings.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

There is a big difference between animals and fully-functional intelligent beings.

Not really. If you study evolutionary biology, then you'd know that it's very egotistical to separate humans from the rest of the animal kingdom.

We hold ourselves to this level of esteem, but we're all just products of nature and evolution, and we all have inclinations. And "evil" is just a concept we invented. And even then, Saiyans aren't humans. We're holding an alien species to human standards, which I think is invalid in it of it self.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

When animals are capable of building the things that we have, and can develop hundreds of complex languages, then we'll talk about if we're egotistical or not.

Ah. I see. So Darkseid isn't evil, because he's an alien and we shouldn't hold it against him. It's just in his nature.

Sorry for the sudden rudeness, but that topic (theory of evolution) is an instant trigger for me. Both, online and irl.

 

[Ryukama]

Humans are vastly superior to animals. If anything, evolution and survival of the fittest would further solidify that belief. Like Cal said, when has a cow built the Sears Tower? When has a chimpanzee made a room where it educates other chimps? When has a dog taken itself to outer space? Which buffalo has been able to create a computer? What pig has made indoor plumbing?

But regardless, so would you not find any alien in fiction to be evil now? Not Frieza, not Buu, nobody whose origin doesn't come from planet Earth? Not saying this to be condescending rather wondering how you feel, which I completely respect your opinion anyway.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@The real cal

All that is relative though. And historically speaking, the hundreds of buildings and monuments we build was with the power of slaves. And in todays society, there's the issue of workers getting underpayed over worked, work exploitation, sweatshop labor etc... so when you look at the driving force behind all the shit we build, then it's not all sunshines and rainbows.

And no one sat down and consciously developed any of our langauges. Our languages just developed automatically/subconsciously, but regardless, I don't see what any of this has to do with morality.

Sorry this topic triggers you. But I've personally studied all this stuff a lot, and it leads me to believe that things like "morality" and "evil" and what-not, start to lose their meaning. Or at the very least, shows there's a lot of grey area.

And Darseid, apparently, is necessary in the DC Universe from what I understand. Like killing him affects the function of the Universe or some shit. So he's like a "necessary evil" which I also find to be one of those "grey area" terms. But to put it simply, Darkseid is evil simply because the writers say he's evil. He literally is a God of Evil in DC.

Where-as someone like Beerus is not evil. Bizarre, right? But no, he's a "God of Destruction" and his existence is necessary, despite what his function entails. But the whole "his function is necessary" schtick actually makes him very similar to Darkseid.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Humans are vastly superior to animals. If anything, evolution and survival of the fittest would further solidify that belief. Like Cal said, when has a cow built the Sears Tower? When has a chimpanzee made a room where it educates other chimps? When has a dog taken itself to outer space? Which buffalo has been able to create a computer? What pig has made indoor plumbing?
But regardless, so would you not find any alien in fiction to be evil now? Not Frieza, not Buu, nobody whose origin doesn't come from planet Earth? Not saying this to be condescending rather wondering how you feel, which I completely respect your opinion anyway.

I call BS.

If survival of the fittest is your reference, then we're doing a lot of f'd up shit. We're at risk making ourselves extinct with all the polution, political tension, economic problems and what not. And there's science to back this. Even Carl Sagan, a world renouned scientist was well aware of this.

No, those animals don't do the same things we do. But at the same time, when has a cow caused a hollocaust. When has a chimpanzee nuked a city? When has a buffalo enslaved its entire population? Conversely, when has a human ran as fast as a cheetah? When has a human spotted a rat from 1000 feet in the air? When has a human played an integral roll in the survival of all plants (e.g bees)? We're not superior to any animal, nor are they superior to us. We're all just different, and do different things. We build shit and do math and science and what not. Cheetahs run fast. Bees stabalize the vast majority of plant life.

And I'm not trying to be misanthropic or trying to be one of those people that thinks animals are so much better than human. I'm just simply saying that nature is very indifferent, and intelligence does not correlate to morality, nor should we expect morality from a lifeform just because it's intelligent. I've accepted the way things are, because I have no reckoning to expect it to be any other way. That goes for real life human, and fictional Saiyans alike. Saiyans are the way they are. It doesn't matter that they are "fully-functional and intelligent".