Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 56: Low 2-C for everyone

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Even if they are different, there's no proof one is more powerful than the other. As far as anyone knows, it's two different techniques that simply do the same thing.

 

[Ryukama]

I'd appreciate you stop acting so hostile and sarcastic. Thank you.

You're accusing me of cherrypicking and exclusively selecting things, yet in that quote you show you exclude out the part right before that where Beerus says "It's hakai" ? How was Beerus making a distinction in a series of dialogue where he uses both terms to refer to the same thing?

Yeah I get it. Both of them are blasted differently. My point is your previous claims that they function completely differently.

• When discovering Toppo's aura, Beerus says "it's hakai". Then Krillin and Belmod refer to it as "Energy of Hakai". So in this instance, both terms were used to refer to the same thing.

• Once Toppo erases 17's blasts, Beerus again says "It's hakai" then says "Depending on the situation he can surround himself with the Energy of Hakai". Again Beerus uses both terms for the same thing.

• Beerus says "Run, No. 17! Hakai is coming!" right as a blast of what you'd call "Energy of Destruction" comes then Toppo exclaims "Hakai!" as he blasts it. Once again, Hakai is being used to refer to Energy of Destruction.

I totally haven't watched the episode yet I remember all these moments from the episode better than you do. The terms keep being used interchangeably.

Fine "Energy of Hakai" and "Hakai" are different techniques. Okay? But functionally they are the same thing. Just as foot kamehameha and regular kamehamheha are technically different techniques, but in all practicality they are the same thing.

My issue is with your previous claims that they function completely differently, that one is a full durablity negator while the other isn't, and that if someone can resist a Energy of Hakai that doesn't mean they can resist a Hakai. None of those things are at all proven by the one arbitrary difference you have between the two. But sure, again they're different techniques executed differently. Is that better?

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Just as foot kamehameha and regular kamehamheha are technically different techniques, but in all practicality they are the same thing.

Foot kamehameha is OP. Clearly a High 1-A level attack ovo

 

[Kepekley23]

Ryukama's last post pretty much solo'ed the thread. Both are the same thing.

 

[FTW395]

So what does this actually mean?

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

I think I know the real difference between them. Hakai is the technique it self. Energy of Destruction is not a technique. It's just the energy that powers the technique. Just like Kamehameha is a technique. But ki it self is not a technique. Ki is the energy that powers Kamehameha and many other techniques.

Energy of Destruction is just something that GoD have. It is the energy of a God of Destruction. And with it, various techniques can be performed, including throwing Hakai spheres, surrounding yourself with Hakai, and of course the OHK Hakai it self (not arguing that there's a difference in potency. Just making the distinction that EoD is not a technique anymore than ki itself is).

 

[Zensum]

I think I know the real difference between them. Hakai is the technique it self. Energy of Destruction is not a technique. It's just the energy that powers the technique. Just like Kamehameha is a technique. But ki it self is not a technique. Ki is the energy that powers Kamehameha and many other techniques.
Energy of Destruction is just something that GoD have. It is the energy of a God of Destruction. And with it, various techniques can be performed, including throwing Hakai spheres, surrounding yourself with Hakai, and of course the OHK Hakai it self (not arguing that there's a difference in potency. Just making the distinction that EoD is not a technique anymore than ki itself is).

This is the most logical conclusion imo

 

[Ryukama]

I can agree with Meleenium. Of course I don't think that they are exact same thing. The fact that they are executed differently shows they aren't entirely identical. However in all praticality they basically are, given their exact same effects, the relation they have with each other and that both terms are used interchangeably to refer to the same thing.

My main issue is the assumption that both these function completely different, to the point where one could negate durability regardless and the other gets bypassed by strength and someone who resists Energy of Destruction could still get erased by a Hakai.

Also I hope there's no hard feelings, Unite. I have nothing against you and I hope you don't have anything against me over a simple disagreement on a Dragon Ball power.

 

[Pannaliciour]

That sky changing thing, did Toppa that or was it the clock (Grand Priest)

 

[Ovrhide]

Toppos hakai changed the sky. That's how op a held back hakai is

 

[Golden_Void]

I think I know the real difference between them. Hakai is the technique it self. Energy of Destruction is not a technique. It's just the energy that powers the technique. Just like Kamehameha is a technique. But ki it self is not a technique. Ki is the energy that powers Kamehameha and many other techniques.
Energy of Destruction is just something that GoD have. It is the energy of a God of Destruction. And with it, various techniques can be performed, including throwing Hakai spheres, surrounding yourself with Hakai, and of course the OHK Hakai it self (not arguing that there's a difference in potency. Just making the distinction that EoD is not a technique anymore than ki itself is).

EoD is more or less clearly defined . It's basically GoD ki (which is purple), that the user can apply existence erasure properties to, should they choose to do so. This is why Beerus says Toppo can surround himself with EoD, yet that the same time he can squish Frieza's head instead of erasing him on contact. Further proof of this is Toppo having it as an aura as previously mentioned, and using it as an EE ki blast.

Hakai is a technique where the user can erase whatever they're aiming at instantly, without regards for distance, or scope apparently, since Sidra could hakai an entire city. We don't know if it uses ki, but we can assume it does. So far, it can't be resisted

EoD adds existence erasure properties to a GoD's ki blasts (or the ki blasts already have these properties), and it can be controlled, wielded, and passed around to fodder without it erasing them, and it can be resisted.

 

[Golden_Void]

"My main issue is the assumption that both these function completely different, to the point where one could negate durability regardless and the other gets bypassed by strength and someone who resists Energy of Destruction could still get erased by a Hakai."

If one is a question of durability, and one takes durability out of the question, then we're only left with logical conclusions. Goku barely resisted energy of destruction, and a few episodes later when they come back from the Zen Exhibition match, Beerus threatens him with a hakai.

If Goku could resist EoD, why would Beerus attempt to hakai him, unless he knew it would work? After all, Beerus did witness Goku resist the energy.

 

[Ryukama]

Because Beerus's Hakai is obviously greater than a tiny portion of Sidra's Energy of Destruction that Beerus could blow away. That doesn't indicate that one of them works regardless of strength and the other doesn't. Nor does it suggest that if someone could survive the full power of Energy of Destruction they couldn't also survive a Hakai.

 

[Golden_Void]

But if it negates durability, then it doesn't matter how great the power is behind it, since durability or resistance isn't a factor. We've seen EoD be resisted by strength on multiple occasions but we can't say the same for hakai. Absence of evidence for those counter-claims is evidence against those claims until it can be proven. A full power EoD being resisted comes down to the strength of the target.

Whether Hakai could work on someone Angel tier or higher is unknown, considering Whis does say there's nothing Beerus can't destroy.

 

[Ryukama]

I think more evidence is required to say that Hakai is this complete strength negator that can work on absolutely anyone regardless of how powerful they are, whereas Energy of Destruction which works similarly to Hakai, is obviously related to Hakai and the terms are used interchangeably to refer to the same thing can be bypassed by strength.

That's obviously a hyperbole. Beerus can't destroy the 12 universes and most likely Zeno or Super Shenron.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The assumption that Hakai works on everything from Whis, Grand Priest, Super Shenron, Zeno to all the universes or timelines is more extraordinary than the assumption that people of vastly higher power levels than Beerus can resist the attack. Especially when very similar attacks have shown to be bypassed by higher power levels.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Hakai is a technique where the user can erase whatever they're aiming at instantly, without regards for distance, or scope apparently, since Sidra could hakai an entire city. We don't know if it uses ki, but we can assume it does. So far, it can't be resisted.

I'm sure you need to have Energy of Destruction to perform Hakai. And I wouldn't say regardless of scope. Afterall, Sidra specifically destroyed a city, and just the city. Not the surrounding area, and not anything in between him in the city. So yeah, I think similar to shooting Destruction spheres, the magnitude of Hakai it self can also be controlled.

Sidra's Hakai was city level, because that's all the power he needed to put in it. Ironically, it was probably weaker than the energy ball he gave his minion since that was meant to kill Frieza (he obviously underestimated Frieza as well, but it was still a tiny portion of Sidra's power).

 

[Golden_Void]

Alright so let's put it like this.

We can definitively say EoD (whether weak or full power) can be resisted by someone on the same level or higher, as it's a ki blast with EE properties.

We can't say that for hakai. We know it negates durability, so it takes strength out of the equation. Anyone angel tier or higher can possibly resist it with EE resistance, but shouldn't be able to through strength, as durability isn't a factor. As for the other stuff that's a whole different convo.

 

[Ryukama]

Most resistance in Dragon Ball comes from higher power levels. I think it's still more likely than a Hakai, just like the Energy of Hakai, can't simply erase anyone including those of vastly higher power levels. Both are assumptions but I believe my assumption is more reasonable for now. Since they are still assumptions though, neither can be definitively proven until the series gives more info. So I'll be dropping this for now.

 

[AKM sama]

Vegeta be getting resistance to existence erasure next episode

 

[Golden_Void]

Are we gonna scale Toppo over Sidra or no? ovo

 

[Ryukama]

I personally think Toppo is stronger than Sidra. However I don't think comparing his Energy of Destruction to a very tiny amount Sidra just gave fodder to use isn't the best comparison.

 

[Amexim]

City level RANGE, definitely. Dragon Ball characters seem to have the ability to project Ki/Chi in localized areas away from themselves, as if spontaneously generating an explosion-- like Nappa, Frieza, and Omega Shenron did with a flick of their wrist. Don't know if Beerus can Hakai an entire universe, but it does seem like one can speculate with accuracy as to the nature of how Hakai (the one Beerus, Sidra, and Manga Goku used) can be executed. In the Manga, it was a ki blast when Beerus used it irrc, and with the rest of the depictions, they just declare their target Destroyed. The latter looked similar to a Kiai, though without force behind the invisible wave. If anyone is familiar with hunter x hunter's combat mechanics, we could either enterpret the Hakai sans consentrated spherical manifestation as Enveloping (Shrouding or Shu) the target in a faint, incredibly casual amount of Hakai energy. Ranged/large scale applications can be seen as using the ability to spontaneously generate explosions like Nappa can do. Remember that crater he caused with a flick of his hands?

 

[AKM sama]

Jiren will hakai Zeno.

 

[LordGinSama]

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

I hope it's explained that Frieza surviving Hakai is attributed to his resilience (like when he survived with half a body).

 

[Pannaliciour]

I think that hakai damaged Freeza to much. Do you guys think that if freeza toke it more serious, with his full power and fight him fist to fist have a chance? I do.

 

[Ovrhide]

I think that hakai damaged Freeza to much. Do you guys think that if freeza toke it more serious, with his full power and fight him fist to fist have a chance? I do.

Not a chance. Golden freeza is just ssb level, toppo is hakaishin tier.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Have any of you guys had a chance to play Dragon Ball FighterZ? I'm downloading it right now as we speak.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Yeah, I have it. Fun game.

 

[TurboTriangle601]

@Julian

I don't have it but i do have 65$.

Though i don't know what to spend the rest of my money on....

 

[PaChi2]

Bald gohan is the best thing ever.

Also, any ideas as to why toppo got those tremendous abs spontaneously? lol

 

[Aeyu]

I still want Gohan to get a new form eventually.

They literally set up Chekhov's gun just to troll all his fans.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Jiren singing in an iPhone commercial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS18Zxpd6E0

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1331712 getting full so here

 

[Ryukama]

Jiren singing in an iPhone commercial.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS18Zxpd6E0

I was expecting a really cool Japanese commercial and got sorely disappointed