Edens Zero: Possible Rebecca and Weisz Upgrade

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Ok, this was briefly mentioned in the main discussion thread and in the discord, but we may have some potential buffs.

Rebecca has the same attack stat as Hermit, so she should scale to her in terms of attack power as well, meaning that Rebecca should be 8-A, however do we treat this as only with Cat Leaper or not?

As for Weisz, should we scale his Base Form to at least a casual Base Shiki? He did survive multiple attacks from Mutated Drakken Joe that was able to severely damage Base Shiki after all, which I don't think a haxless 9-B could do, in general do we scale his Base at all?

 

[Damage3245]

Given that these are just estimations from Pino's perspective, and currently unsupported by feats in the manga itself, I don't think we should use these stats as the basis for the profiles.

As for Weisz, I'm unsure. That would really only apply to his durability if we did scale him to that.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I don't see how Pino would be wrong tho, she's extremely intelligent and would be able to analyze the strength of her comrades quite effectively, not to mention that she would be capable of specifically analyzing Hermit's Stats since Hermit is a Machine

I'd say "Like 8-A" for Rebecca's Cat Leaper?

 

[senseikeleon]

I’m neutral on both points so I’ll wait for more input

If we do use Pino's analyst as facts

then I would say Rebecca should only scale via cat leaper since pino is aware of cat leaper as she list it as Rebecca’s ether power and I would assume she would have accounted for that when she list Rebecca’s power as equal to Hermit

 

[Damage3245]

I'm just reminded of the fact that we get stat guides a lot of the times in databooks, like for Naruto, and we always ignore them. I don't see what merit these stats have really.

 

[SamanPatou]

I have some problems using the statistics given by those covers, mainly because they're inconsistent. I mean, we scale all the Shining Stars between each other, but they have different statistics in both strength and defense. Hermit has a double 2, Witch 4 and 5, Sister 2 and 3.
And if we look at the others, Weisz has 3 and 5 and Shiki 4 and 3. Moskoi has 1 in everything, but he's able to fight and destroy multiple drones on Foresta.

Using this numbers to scale everyone to each other would only cause a mess.

 

[senseikeleon]

I agree with SamanPatou and Damage on using the cover pages as facts i mean if the manga doesn’t back them up then I don’t think we should use them as facts

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

That's fair, I can get behind that idea, however what about Base Weisz?

Also DavidSteel1 doesn't really want to participate on Vs Battles anymore, but he did want me to mention his comment, which is below

 

[Zackra1799]

I have some problems using the statistics given by those covers, mainly because they're inconsistent. I mean, we scale all the Shining Stars between each other, but they have different statistics in both strength and defense. Hermit has a double 2, Witch 4 and 5, Sister 2 and 3.
And if we look at the others, Weisz has 3 and 5 and Shiki 4 and 3. Moskoi has 1 in everything, but he's able to fight and destroy multiple drones on Foresta.

Using this numbers to scale everyone to each other would only cause a mess.

What feats in the manga disprove theses statistics?

Moskoi destroying some random drones doesn't really prove anything given they didn't really do anything to begin with.

 

[senseikeleon]

Well I’m personally neutral on the base Weisz point leaning towards agree though so I’ll see what the opposition has to say about that point

 

[SamanPatou]

Regarding Weisz, I read the chapter again and I guess that it might be possible.
I'd say that I'm neutral, but if it scales the it should backscale, since Weisz was almost ko'ed, while Shiki was able to stand up.

 

[SamanPatou]

What feats in the manga disprove theses statistics?

Moskoi destroying some random drones doesn't really prove anything given they didn't really do anything to begin with.

Well, Moskoi has the same statistics as Pino, 1 in both attack and defense, but clearly he isn't as weak as he's depicted in there.
And if we use those covers, then Weisz has to be upgraded to 8-A too, since he has more attack and defense than both Hermit and Sister.
Witch also is the strongest overall, having the same attack as Shiki but a higher defense.

Those numbers are simply unreliable for scaling.

 

[Zackra1799]

Well, Moskoi has the same statistics as Pino, 1 in both attack and defense, but clearly he isn't as weak as he's depicted in there.
And if we use those covers, then Weisz has to be upgraded to 8-A too, since he has more attack and defense than both Hermit and Sister.
Witch also is the strongest overall, having the same attack as Shiki but a higher defense.

Those numbers are simply unreliable for scaling.

Mosco was effortlessly slapped aside by Jinn and base Wiesz effortlessly defeated Mosco with Million bullets back in the Gulist arc. So Mosco just can't be used as a reason for not using these numbers. Even in the drone fight Mosco was the only one seemingly having trouble with the drones as he was being injured by them.

 

[SamanPatou]

i'm not saying that Mosco is the strongest, I'm just saying that if we use those covers, then Pino must have the same attack and defense as him, which is very unlikely.

Also, as I said, Weisz appears to be superior to both Sister and Hermit and Witch is the strongest character in there.

Heck, here we are discussing if scaling Weisz to base Shiki is right using a durability feat, but according to those stats Weisz has 2 more defense points than Shiki, but was almost knocked out by an attack that Shiki withstood better than him.

And Rebecca has 1 in defense, meaning that her durability would be the same as Pino and Moskoi, i.e. way less than all the other main characters.

 

[Zackra1799]

i'm not saying that Mosco is the strongest, I'm just saying that if we use those covers, then Pino must have the same attack and defense as him, which is very unlikely.

Also, as I said, Weisz appears to be superior to both Sister and Hermit and Witch is the strongest character in there.

Heck, here we are discussing if scaling Weisz to base Shiki is right using a durability feat, but according to those stats Weisz has 2 more defense points than Shiki, but was almost knocked out by an attack that Shiki withstood better than him.

And Rebecca has 1 in defense, meaning that her durability would be the same as Pino and Moskoi, i.e. way less than all the other main characters.

The stat block for Weisz directly mentions Arsenal which is what his stat block would cover. Given it's a suit of high tech armor it would logically scale above his own base durability.

Rebecca having a one in defense makes sense because she was killed literally in every fight she has been in, it's the whole reason were at world 30 in the first place

 

[SamanPatou]

Well, we don't know if it refers directly to Arsenal, but even then he would be just as strong as Shiki and way more durable than him and the other characters, in fact he would be the most durable of all alongside Witch.

And then, Pino would be able to smash drones just like Moskoi, and Witch scales way more than the other stars and is at the top of everyone. Hermit is really closer to Pino in both attack and defense, while she is two to three point under Homura and Witch.
Homura has a double 4, two attack points more than Sister.

Also, we don't know if those points have an actual number value. If one point is 9-B from Moskoi (random tier based on smashing drones), and two points are 8-A from Hermit, how strong/durable would be those characters that have 3, 4 or even 5 points?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I think what we can know based off those cover stats is that the stars are a loose indicator of characters compared to each other, like we know someone with 3 stars for attack are stronger than someone with 2 stars with attack, but two people with 2 stars for attack may be loosely comparable, but not equal

 

[senseikeleon]

I think what we can know based off those cover stats is that the stars are a loose indicator of characters compared to each other, like we know someone with 3 stars for attack are stronger than someone with 2 stars with attack, but two people with 2 stars for attack may be loosely comparable, but not equal

That makes sense
though I am a little iffy on scaling the characters just based off the cover scans alone

 

[SamanPatou]

It doesn't change the fact that those points are given without focusing on the actual power of the characters, with the examples I brought before we could even drop the argument of Weisz backscaling from Shiki, since he's directly superior to him in stats. And that's just one of the examples, all the scaling would be a mess unustained by the what the manga shows.

 

[Zackra1799]

It doesn't change the fact that those points are given without focusing on the actual power of the characters, with the examples I brought before we could even drop the argument of Weisz backscaling from Shiki, since he's directly superior to him in stats. And that's just one of the examples, all the scaling would be a mess unustained by the what the manga shows.

Then we can deal with situations like that as they arise, but that shouldn't be used as a catch all to disregard every stat block statistic.

 

[SamanPatou]

They don't need to arise, they are still here. Using them we have:

Pino at least 9-B
Weisz 8-A in AP and dura for being superior to Shiki, Sister and Hermit
Witch superior to everyone, even stronger than Shiki
Rebecca 8-A in AP but 9-B in durability.

And who knows what else, like Hermit is one of the weakest characters and Sister a bit high over here, with Homura being above both of them a lot of other things.
Those stats are all over the place, we can't make actual scaling with them, they don't match with neither the tiering system nor what happens in the manga itself.

And if one star is 9-B, two are 8-A, five stars what are? 6-B? (random value).

 

[senseikeleon]

Bump

 

[SamanPatou]

I still disagree with the numerical points for all the reasons I gave before.
Regarding Weisz, I'm not sure if him not being killed by Drakken is valid for scaling. A character being KO'ed but not killed by a stronger one is a common thing in shonens (even though Drakken was out of control) and a similar question has been raised in the One Piece CRT, but I prefer to wait for further inputs from other people.

 

[senseikeleon]

If the info cards aren’t backed up by feats in the manga then i say we shouldn’t use them but we can still go case by case with them

but as far as specifically regrading Rebecca and Hermit well if Rebecca doesn’t have any feats near 8A In the manga then I say we shouldn’t upgrade her to 8A and then as DavidStell pointed out Hermit herself doesn’t have any physical feats in the manga on the level of 8A she really only has it via hacking machines and being comparable to the other stars

As far as Weisz he really only survived 2 attacks from Mutated Joe it was when he and Shiki got struck by lightning and then he got smashed by a tentacle and was incapacitated
So I still don’t know I’m still neutral on this point though I don’t think he should scale in AP in Base to Base Shiki but maybe in Durability

 

[SamanPatou]

I don't think we should use the cards case by case, because it's the equivalent of cherry picking.
At most, I guess we can put Hermit's striking strength at "Unknown" or "At least Wall level" for being comparable to Rebecca at minum. But we either use all the cards, with the numerous scaling problems they cause, or we don't use them at all.

 

[senseikeleon]

That’s true I was saying if the feats in the manga back up the scaling of a specific card then I don’t see a problem with it to use the card as supporting evidence

but you are correct in that it would be cherry picking so maybe we shouldn’t use them at all

 

[Damage3245]

I do believe that Hermit's striking strength should be Unknown.

Also, why is Kleene physically scaling to a Pre-Modification Jinn? Is there anything that actually links their physical statistics?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I do believe that Hermit's striking strength should be Unknown.

Also, why is Kleene physically scaling to a Pre-Modification Jinn? Is there anything that actually links their physical statistics?

These are valid points, I'll change them, I'm just very used to editing characters who's AP matches their Physicals

 

[SamanPatou]

So, what are we going to do with Weisz?

I'm neutral, but a little dubious, 8-A durability without armor seems a bit high to me, at least for the reasoning.

 

[senseikeleon]

I’m neutral as well I mean he only survived 2 attacks and the second one left him incapacitated and unable to even stand

i mean I’m personally fine with leaving his profile the way it is for now the next chapter looks like it’s gonna focus on him anyway so he might get even better feats

 

[Zackra1799]

We could scale him to a casual base Shiki, this way he is still below Shiki without armor but no so far below Shiki, that surviving attacks that damaged a serious Shiki doesn't make sense.

 

[SamanPatou]

It would be a bit weird to have Weisz with 9-B AP but 8-A durability, though. But this isn't a real argument. What about a "likely higher" added to the current durability?

 

[senseikeleon]

I’m fine with likely higher for his base form

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I can calc the explosion he survived maybe

 

[SamanPatou]

Which explosion? It should be good anyway, certainly more clear and solid.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I calced the explosion as 9-A

Question is if we use it and if it scales to Weisz's AP as well

 

[senseikeleon]

I mean I’m not opposed to it but I’ll wait to see what others think

 

[Zackra1799]

I think it would be pretty inconstant to put Drakken Joes Explosions at 9-A when he has harmed Shiki with them before. Weisz has also one shot Mosco, so I think we should put Base Weisz at Casual shiki level for Dura and AP, but keep his Striking Strength at unknown

 

[senseikeleon]

bump

 

[senseikeleon]

Bump