Fatherofdemons said:
There seem to be a lot of misconception here from people who didn't read Superman Beyond and know nothing of New 52 and The Bleed and Orrey of Worlds. First off, Monitor Sphere is only the highest in the Local Multiverse, which is only 52 universes. The Bleed is a 4-Dimensional space and TR was struggling against Mandrakk wielding 4-Dimensional powers. Superman being his own plot and a "better story" is simply an opinion and a plot device that has literally no meaning anywhere else but DC b/c Morrison wants to go all "plot/story powers" on everything.
No, TR is not infinite-dimensional, and no, he's not beyond infinite universes. He never displayed plot manipulation; he only displayed the ability to adapt to a being using 4-Dimensional powers. Them going into the Overvoid is no huge feat considering Wally did it and so did countless Vertigo characters that were not beyond 3-D character level. Superman saw one of the Writers; does that mean he's infinite-dimensional and has plot manipulation?
The "carrying an infinite book" feat is a huge outlier if you actually read Superman Beyond. Captain Marvel and Ultraman weren't even capable of holding a few hundred to thousand-tonner ship as it went through different universes. It was by no means infinite in weight, and they could not actually hold it up. The book is an outlier and a terrible feat to use.
To make it more concise: Monitor Sphere is not infinite-dimensional and neither is the Local Multiverse. The Bleed is 4-D and was keeping a good fight against TR. He's not infinite-dimensional either. Mr. Mxyzptlk curbstomps TR and he's not infinite-dimensional and has way better feats.
Not to mention, even if this were happening at an infinite-dimensional scale, The Presence, Lucifer, The Endless; any Vertigo characters at that conceptual level would've come in and shitstomped Mandrakk and TR for ******* with the universe. But they didn't. Because TR and Mandrakk were just messing around in the 4th dimension and only fighting over 52 measly universes.
(This is a do-over comment, because it seems my last one was deleted. if it wasn't, i will delete this as well after)
1. This is not a content revision board, if you want to display that you think that Cosmic Armor Superman was overexaggerated in power, then go take it up with the Content Revision Board, who will look at your evidence and decide if your evidence means anything.
No reason to derail this thread if you think the argument is wrong.
2. Not only can i not find much evidence of anything in Superman Beyond being stated as 4-D (and even then, never suggesting that they only operate at 4-D level.) Your argument over Mandrakk's power level itself doesn't make sense. Mandrakk was considered the big bad of the entire Final Crisis story line, even above someone like Darkseid, who in the story was strong enough to destroy the ENTIRE DC MULTIVERSE, not just the 52 universes of Post-Infinite Crisis. Not only that, a weaker replacement Mandrakk was able to defeat both Radiant and the Spectre without any trouble, both of which were at full power in the tie-in comics of Final Crisis.
A Full Power Spectre is able to tangle with the Anti-Monitor, who is, i'm pretty sure, above 52 Universes in power. By your logic, Spectre not only would've shit stomped the second Mandrakk, but the first Mandrakk without even breaking a sweat.
Hell, why couldn't Swamp Thing do it? By your logic, he would have destroyed Mandrakk in a milisecond.
3. Isn't the Monitor Sphere above Limbo? Which surrounds the Bleed, which has been mentioned multiple times to encompass MULTIPLE Multiverses? And it's never been mentioned (at least to my knowledge) that there are multiple Bleeds and multiple Limbo's, but only one of each that exists at the highest dimensional tier of each respective part of the Multiverse. And the Monitor Sphere viewed that as insignifcant as a large pizza.
4. Yes, others have accessed the Overvoid before, but Monitor's exist on the EDGE of the Overvoid, something no other dimension has ever shown to do. This makes sense, as since they are the closest to the Overvoid on the map, they would live at the highest level of existence, but still be dwarfed by the size of the void itself.
5. Name a single instance where, in a major event comic, that the Presence has just come in and said "No, you can't do that anymore". He didn't do it in Crisis on Infinite Earths (when an INFINITE Multiverse was at stake), he didn't do it when the Ultimator destroyed the 10th, 9th, 8th, 7th and 6th Dimension, he didn't give a shit when Infinite Crisis ****** up the Multiverse even more, he didn't stop Convergence, and he has almost never gotten strictly involved in any event besides Day of Vengeance.
The obvious answer is that
A.) Vertigo doesnt mingle all the time with DC.
B.) That woulr ruin the drama of the story if the Presence just fixed everything
C.) Even if if was a threat to Infinite-Dimensions, it would still be insignificant to any of those characters, as they are Outerverse level. Morningstar didn't even give a shit when God disappeared out of heaven, his own father, so why would he care if some jackass was destroying the Monitor sphere and below? That's nothing to him.
And finally
In the story, the characters mention multiple times that the threat that is happening affects ALL of existence.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/37889/1122338-843457_29653798_super.jpg
ALL of existence probably doesn't include just 52 Universes and 4 Dimensions. Especially considering we know that the DC Multiverse is infinite.
http://i.imgur.com/mZ7v3RA.png
[
Cosmic Armor Superman SPECIFICALLY said that the threat was to the ENTIRE Multiverse. ]
So, unless Monitors and CA Superman were too close minded to know that there were Multiple Multiverses in the DCU... i doubt they were bluffing.
However, if you have any more proof about this, send it to the revision board. See what they say.
