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To start this revision, something that should be added to everyone, not just Fiamma, because we did it to espers and their RW and Probability hax.

Limited Causality Manipulation, because:

("So my own creations turn on me in the very end."

She made it sound like this would not have happened if she had not made them, but you must not forget. Magic is a technique of distorting the world's causality for your own purposes. It does not only produce the obvious phenomena right in front of you. It is a dangerous technique that will follow an unexpected path to later cause an unexpected change without the magic user even knowing about it. Aleister Crowley had loathed that and called it sparks and spray. The Battle of Blythe Road had been fought over that)

And

(Kamijou Touma had nothing to defend himself with, so the rest of his body would be reduced to mincemeat.

However.

Magic was a technique of distorting the world's causality for your own purposes. Its sparks and spray would eventually find their way back to influence the magic user in unexpected ways. An action taken to achieve a certain goal could end up crushing that very some goal in some hidden way.)

Characters who have the ability to use Sparks and Spray should have it in "less limited" way.

I created 2 new keys to Fiamma, and here i will explain why they are needed, i will put a link at the end.

Currently, his H6A key is the same key for Fiamma's limited form and the one who doesn't has those limits. The first key now is for the first time he appeared, before having acces to Index, and thus having limited power, the second one is after acquiring Index and then erasing his previous limits, the third is after completing the Star of Bethlehem and havinh control over Archangel Gabriel, the fourth is LPSaD Fiamma, with each key he is becoming more powerful, then i think we shouldn't compact it to a single key.

Fiamma also has 2 forms of Non-Physical Interaction, one for his base form and other for his LPSaD form

Base form can interact with angels as one of his miracles, angels are incorporeal beings who only use a Physical body to interact with the human world:

("It's quite simple. What I possess is not the right arm itself but the power that should reside in the right arm. The right is used in most Christian rituals. Archangel Michael cut down the leader of the fallen angels with his right hand...)

LPSaD can destroy the malice inside people:

(Tragedy created more tragedy and the spiraling malice would spread out to every corner of that planet. Fiamma's holy power would increase in response to that ugly sight and he would purify the entire world)

And

("Overly powerful divine punishment can easily destroy the unions between people. It is the same as the bonds between people being broken with the destruction of the Tower of Babel. And in response to the malice created in that, I can once more draw on a tremendous power.")

Eletricity manipulation, or is it weather manipulation? :

(At that time, a golden arm exploded in a similar fashion even on the war front in Eastern Europe. However, that one did not cause waves. Radiating from the center of the exploding arm were thunder clouds lowering down to the surface. The dark masses of water vapor explosively spread along the surface of the earth while an odd noise reverberated throughout the area. It was the sound of sparks. It was the sound of voltages exceeding a hundred million. Those overwhelmingly high voltage currents blew apart the people absorbed by the dark clouds and fried all electronic equipment on the weapons.)

Control over Telesma grants any special ability? Telesma comes from Heaven and operates in a different set of laws, but idk if we add it or not.

Now, the High 1-C thing, yeah, i know, someone will say this is wank, but anyways, Fiamma has 1 direct H1C feat, 2 from Powerscaling and 1 to support the first

The first i will be talking about, even if isn't H1C, should change the way his power and miracles work from simple AP and RW to causality manipulation (H1C for this was rejected, the causality part is likely rejected as well).

(Just then, Baby Lilith moved her small hand to draw a circle in the air.

But that made no sense.

Given the comparative speeds, it was too late to move your hand after Magick: Flaming_Sword had already been released. Nevertheless, it worked.

Consistency fell apart. Causality was ignored.

In other words, it was a miracle.

With a sound like a saw's teeth bending, the tip of the Magick: Flaming_Sword was twisted off course. It was caught by the shield-like circle Lilith had drawn, it spun around, and it was trapped in a never-ending circuit.)

His power being causality make sense, since magic itself already distorts causality, and this proves miracles do it in a "more direct" way.

The High 1-C part is that Flaming_Sword is a H1C attack, as you can see in Coronzo's profile, and LPSaD Fiamma can create any miracle from christinity, and his base form is already said to be able to create miracles.

Base:

("That is correct. You could say my right hand has the power to create... miracles." Fiamma slowly moved through the rubble and continued. "The Son of God used his right hand to cure the illnesses of the sick and revive the deceased. It was the right hand which drew the cross and scattered the holy water used for the baptism of Christ...)

LPSaD

(In fact, the great swirl of light Fiamma had fired had split in two right in front of the boy and scattered to either side of him. Yet that attack had held such power that it could blow away a planet or recreate any of the legends in Christianity.)

The second feat is powerscaling from Curtana Second and Original (rejected because Michael isn't Curtana only power source):

Curtana Second:

(That sword was an extreme spiritual item that fully united the three factions and four regions of the United Kingdom; it could draw on a portion of Archangel Michael's power while on British territory. If a qualified user released that power even for a moment, a swing of the sword would sever all dimensions at once and giant ruined materials would be created along the line of the slash.

Yes, all dimensions.

Assuming it could hit, that extraordinary power could penetrate the barrier between worlds and kill a being lurking in a different phase… for example, Holy Guardian Angel Aiwass who stayed in the layer of physical laws at the very bottom.)

Fiamma and Carissa talking about Curtana Original:

("The angel you are aligned with is Michael... Curtana uses power from the same angel, so are you after this sword!?" "Hm? Oh, I see, I see. I suppose I could have done it that way." [...] "No, I guess not. That wouldn't work. It has the right type of power, but its capacity probably wouldn't last. As soon as my power was passed into it, it would probably just be blown to pieces.")

It is good to add that one of the Miracles base Fiamma can do is based on Michael right hand, and in LPSaD he can control Heaven and summon it's angels.

The third one is having all the knowledge and spells inside Index's head, which are said as enough to make becoming a magic god a possibility, and the Necessarius Church (I.e Coronzon) feared her:

("I thought it was an anti-occult defense system created by a magic specialist? Can't you do something with Index's 103,000 grimoires!? She said that controlling those would give you the power of a god, but if it can't even heal one girl's head, it doesn't sound so great to me!"

"Oh, you're referring to a magic god. The Church is extremely afraid of Index rebelling. That is why they put a 'collar' on her so that maintenance only the Church can perform must be carried out once a year by erasing her memories.)

Fiamma, being the most powerful in Roman Catholic Church, should have at least that piece of information, and because of that his plan was using her knowledge to create a ritual to perfect his Holy Right.

And the fourth feat is he after completing said ritual (I.e LPSaD).

The main "object" in this ritual was Imagine Breaker, and as you can see in Kamijou Touma's profile, IB is currently H1C because of feats like nulling Phase Shifts, breaking Gungnir, etc. And Fiamma was able to absorb IB to perfect his power:

(Fiamma of the Right lightly held out his hand. It grabbed Kamijou's right arm as if absorbing it. That right arm was known as Imagine Breaker. That unique right hand could negate any unexplainable supernatural power be it scientific or magical. "I have it..." Fiamma's lips twisted in delight. With a sound like a water balloon bursting, the severed right hand burst to pieces and the blood, flesh, bone, blood vessels, and nerves all neatly disassembled and spread out. [...] All the parts were absorbed into the third arm stretching from Fiamma of the Right's right shoulder.)

And

(As long as he had his own power and that boy's right arm that had been disassembled and reorganized into a spiritual item, he could save the entire world.)

Just to add, Aleister Crowley planned to do a ritual using Accelerator and Imagine Breaker to perfect Aiwass and allow him to destroy all Phases.

Here is the profile i did, just to note i removed somethings so that reading the changes was faster: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:XDragnoir/Fiamma?useskin=oasis
 
again fiamma does not make real miracles , they are recreation by HR , curtana second is an hax an unrelated fiamma or the angel as they never shown something similar

so no 1hc
 
(I am trying to create various phenomena using the miracles and blessings of the Son of God to their fullest and this bastard doesn't care!? He has the power to just walk straight over all the vague things such as fortune and misfortune on his own!!)

Curtana being hax/ap/smurf in vs debating is not important because in-verse they have the same source of power, and Fiamma can draw much more from this source than Curtana, and in LPSaD the source is below Fiamma in the hierarchy.
 
Limited Causality Manipulation Sure, if you make a note similar to the ones that we have on esper profiles regarding Law and Probability Manipulation.

Keys A base key is wholly unneeded, theres no power increase, the only difference would be an unspecified and arbitrary stock number. The current first key is Fiamma at the end of OT21 and accounts for everything up to that point. For the middle key, you'll have to check the standards for summoning and equipment to determine if a key with Gabriel and Star of Bethleham is valid.

NPI Sure, based on your first justification.

Elemental Manipulation Telesma is different from mana in that it inherently has an elemental color from the start. The Golden Arms cause a phenomena derived of the element to occur. However, this is all a byproduct of the purification ceremony. Fiamma was filtering Telesma through the Star of Bethleham like a switching device to purify the foundation and cause a change to the structures on top. If your middle key is valid, adding this would make sense.

H 1-C There is a distinction between the set amount of miracles that are spoken about in Christianity and are of the Aeon of Osiris and 'Miracles' as they are produced by Lilith that aren't magic and directly alter causality. Regarding the tiering, there is simply not enough evidence for anything other than maybe "at least 5-B" for a casual light based attack in LPSaD. True, we already have his miracles as reality warping on the profile. Although, I find it strange the HR is treated like AP despite the strike in of itself being based on a specific miracle from Archangel Michael.

All this means is the percentage of Micheal's power that Curtana Original uses to support the All Dimensional Severing spell is inferior to Fiamma who wields 100% of Micheal's theoretical output. You can't directly scale magic produced by Idol Theory to the original in this way unless it is an explicit recreation or replica. The All Dimensional Severing spell is based on defining boundaries, separating the United Kingdom from the rest of the planet and controlling everything within the kingdom. This theory doesn't relate to Archangel Michael directly and it is not an ability it is said to possess. Likewise, killing Aiwass with this spell's hax can't be directly scaled to Archangel Michael with this statement alone. Also, we have the angel summoning miracle on profile for LPSaD.

Having the knowledge to become a Magic God isn't a valid tiering justification.

Fiamma absorbed Imagine Breaker to achieve LPSaD and to provide a medium to saftely filter his power into the world. Imagine Breaker is H 1-C for it's negation alone.
 
Even you saying it, Fiamma in OT 16 when he first appeared had limited uses to the Holy Right, and this is one of the weakness currently in the profile, even he removing it after acquiring Index. I'm thinking in a better way of indexing him and his powers and the addition of 2 new keys would be a good thing to clarify his weakness and powers through the story.

The knowledge to become a Magic God wasn't exactly the point, the point is that Fiamma possibly knows she has that level of knowledge, and thus wanted it to do a ritual with the Holy Right and Imagine Breaker, turning IB in a spiritual item that amplified his powers, and because, like you said, IB is a H1C power null, and thus no ritual should be able to change it's nature.

Yeah i know the problems with powerscaling from Curtana, but the powerscale isn't impossible, is just, more speculative than anything else.

As for Lilith you seems to make sense, but i thought a miracle would be a miracle no matter when they are made, normal magic already distorts causality, Miracles (be them from Osiris or whatever is Lilith's Aeon) also affecting it directly makes more sense than "only Lilith's because they aren't from Osiris".

Do you know where i can find the standards for keys with specific items?
 
Casuality Manip, the extra Middle Key, Element Manip, and NPI are all valid.

Beyond that however is incorrect. Christian "miracles" and Capital-Letter "Miracles" are not the same thing. One is magic, the other is not magic. That's like claiming that IB or WR was magic. It's objectively false given the power mechanics of the Verse.

Hax DOES matter though. The whole point of hax is to ignore AP/Dura, thus it does not scale to them. If Curtana is not H1C, then Fiamma should not be H1C either. All we know is that the Holy Right can access an unknown amount of power superior to that of Curtana. The exact amount cannot be quantified, and even limited Phase Manipulation is nowhere near H1C.
 
His Phase Manipulation isn't limited either, it takes time to fully complete, but has was fusing 2 different phases in a single one, unless we treat Phases as the same universe, and not as separete things with their own laws. Sure, Curtana powerscaling is unaccepted now, but i'll not remove it from the op, and the goes to Lilith, but the miracles Fiamma uses should still be causality hax. By middle key are you talking about the second and the third or what?
 
By "limited", I was comparing it to the MG-tier feats. Unlike the MG's Fiamma is only able to fuse 2 Phases together. He can't freely warp them, and it seems to be a passive effect. Technically speaking 2 Phases is plural and therefore multiple, but it's a pretty weak argument.

Both. Gabriel and Bethlehem can both be accepted, seperately or together. I have a suggestion: why don't you just add them into the profile as Optional Equipment? Accel has Qliphah and the Smartphone on his page for the same reason.
 
Not even doing a god level ritual that changed Imagine Breaker into a spiritual item to increase his powers to a point that the Phases were naturally changing around him?
 
Phases are not always universale in size, the Phases that change how the World is shaped are universal in size but the Phases that represent a Religion like heaven are of an unknown size all Fiamma did is allow Heavan to be able to reside on the same view as the Human world, in other world he brought the Heavan Phase 'down' towards the Human World.
 
If IB is a H1C power null, how exactly Fiamma was able to absorb it if he doesn't has this strenght? You are saying he did a low-level ritual with Index's knowledge and even then IB was still absorbed by him?

And is there any reason heaven is any smaller than a universe in size? Actually, since the Phases are filters added to reality, saying they are smaller than reality doesn't make sense, so 2C overtime should be a thing because he was fusing 2 diferrent realities.
 
Because IB doesn't null everything the same way, dude. That's like saying Lv.6-Shift Mikoto is somehow H1C because she destroyed IB, or John's PenDex is H1C for cracking IB. You're forgetting the weakness it has to constantly replenishing power supplies.

Not to mention, Fiamma simply absorbed the flesh containing IB, so he never actually interacted with the conceptual aspect of IB. Case in point, the absorbed flesh loses it's negating properties the moment Touma regenerates his hand.

Hell, even turning IB into a "spiritual item" isn't H1C, since the Treasure of Blyth Road is literally that. Are you gonna say the random Golden Dawn magician who was able to accomplish that is H1C too? That type of reasoning just doesn't hold up.
 
L6S Mikoto was nulled, but regenerated after it, PenDex is a valid point though.

He didn't absorb only the flesh, if he did only absorb the flesh no upgrade would have happened and he wouldn't become LPSaD:

(As long as he had his own power and that boy's right arm that had been disassembled and reorganized into a spiritual item, he could save the entire world.)

We don't know how the GD created that arrow, and remember Aleister was from GD, and the Blasting Rod is a weapon with a max output of H1C, they aren't the greatest cabal in history with no reason.

And to add, do any of you remember the rituals that created the MGs? Nephy was created by thousands of random slaves, and going by Othinus, when someone first becomes a MG they don't have power in the same level as True Gremlim. Fiamma has much more knowledge than random slaves without Index, with Index he has knowledge enough that becoming a magic god is a possibility, with Imagine Breaker as a spiritual item powering him to become LPSaD, but sure, he turned LPSaD with the power of a normal right hand, and used this normal right hand do change reality to necome heaven.
 
But he did (?) Using IB as a spiritual item doesn't change the fact that power-null is an inherent property of the flesh. If Fiamma had absorbed the conceptual idea of IB, then he wouldn't have lost it when Touma regenerated his hand. Everything you're saying relies way too much on speculation. Whether or not Fiamma becoming a MG is a possibility isn't relevant to the matter at hand.
 
XDragnoir said:
Even you saying it, Fiamma in OT 16 when he first appeared had limited uses to the Holy Right, and this is one of the weakness currently in the profile, even he removing it after acquiring Index. I'm thinking in a better way of indexing him and his powers and the addition of 2 new keys would be a good thing to clarify his weakness and powers through the story.
Looking at it again, he loses the weakness on his profile from the distortion of the world's laws after the ending of OT21. However, there is no need to make a key for this because this distortion effects all those who use elemental magic in varying degrees and making two keys for all magicians is unnecessary. I don't think there is a need for a base key because the only difference is an unknown number of times he can use his stocks which isn't very helpful.

XDragnoir said:
The knowledge to become a Magic God wasn't exactly the point, the point is that Fiamma possibly knows she has that level of knowledge, and thus wanted it to do a ritual with the Holy Right and Imagine Breaker, turning IB in a spiritual item that amplified his powers, and because, like you said, IB is a H1C power null, and thus no ritual should be able to change it's nature.
The 103k grimoires being capable of creating a Magic God is more or less common knowledge. The path to magic goodhood and Fiamma's ceremony have nothing to do with each other. Llike I said previously, Imagine Breaker is only being used to purify Original Sin and to filter Fiamma's own power into the world. He didn't change anything about Imagine Breaker other than the 'container'. Altering Touma's flesh and blood arm isnt a High 1-C feat.

XDragnoir said:
As for Lilith you seems to make sense, but i thought a miracle would be a miracle no matter when they are made, normal magic already distorts causality, Miracles (be them from Osiris or whatever is Lilith's Aeon) also affecting it directly makes more sense than "only Lilith's because they aren't from Osiris".
No, there is an explicit difference between the finite amount of miracles found in Christianity and Miracles. For example, magic causes phase collision to happen more frequently. Imagine Breaker, is capable of negating the sparks and spray that result from these collisions or magic recoilwhich effect natural luck, fortune and misfortune. However, Imagine Breaker is unable to negate 'Miracles' at all, as they affect probability and causality in a way that can't be classified as science or magic.

XDragnoir said:
Do you know where i can find the standards for keys with specific items?
You can find summons in keys in verses like Bayonetta and you can find weapons in keys like Mikoto's A.A.A.
 
Okay, no H1C, i will not try anymore.

But the 4 keys should still be needed, the first one is for OT16, when he was weaker than any other volume, the 2nd is for OT18 after acquiring Index removing the limited uses weakness, the 3rd is with Gabriel and the SoB, after resolving the elements ambiguity, the fourth is LPSaD. And Fiamma is the only magician with a clear weakness to the elements ambiguity, but maybe others from G'RS have it.
 
Also, what about 2C over time? His changes to the human phase shouldn't stop in Earth, you know.

Also, Gabriel and SoB being optional equipment makes sense, but being a key also makes sense because it greatly change his tiers.
 
At least because he did this attack casually, also, do you know the ap to turn the planet to dust?
 
You should add the same stuff from the previous key into the new ones

The second key right now doesnt have the 10-B tier and the Holy Right stuff, for example
 
Is this really needed? I have seen some stand users and 10A ap isn't in all their keys, and this will add to much information that can be summarized with the "same as before".
 
I will do it if this is accepted.

I think Lazy and DT weren't much actives in the past few days, should i ask someone else?
 
XDragnoir said:
I will do it if this is accepted.
I think Lazy and DT weren't much actives in the past few days, should i ask someone else?
You can try but you need one or both of DT and Lazy to accept the changes since they are the only two knowledgable members of Toaru. The changes won't get accepted otherwise.
 
@Malox I believe what he's saying is normally u would call mods to evaluate rather than wait for 2 specific people, like every other verse handles crts.
 
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