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Finally, a tier 1 good place

Tago238

Tago238

2,252
387
So now the finale has made me cry tears of happiness and despair, it's time to talk about revisions and ruin all the beauty of the finale

==

The Door
As I stated before in a revision about the good place Michael didn't create the neighbourhood and, while yes he has hax, is physically 10-B due to being hurt by people Eleanor was able to tank hits from, by the fact that the neighbourhood was created by Janet as shown by multiple flashbacks and by the fact that the sinkhole "eating the neighbourhood" was just a lie anyway. Nobody cared and I don't really either. Anyway, when Michael became the head architect of the good place he was capable of creating the door- which could bring people to a peaceful place that nobody really knew about. This includes Janet, the Judge, likely Derek (who will be discussed later) and it is kind of hard to pin down. Best guess is that it is death manipulation, or what the good place defines as death manipulation, and considering it could kill the four main humans it negates mid godly Regenerationn. Michael was unaffected and ergo has resistance to such. Although it's left ambiguous and I'm honestly not sure what it could be defined as at this point, this should be included on Michaels and Gen's profile

Derek and the judge
So this is where it gets interesting, I propose Gen, Michael and Kanet are given "Likely Low 1-C, possibly 1-A with preparation" , with the judge also having this level of law manipulation. This is due to a statement by Derek, who after being rebooted 151 million times states this "Derek is now both a singular point in space, and yet Derek also contains space itself. The nexus of Derek is without dimension. The moment of Derek's creation and the eventual heat death of the universe are now inexorably the same". This obviously states that Derek is now transcendent of the space time continuum via the way his lifespan works and is viewed by him (Low 1-C) as well as the fact that Derek violates mathematics and transcends dimensionality itself (1-A). This scales to Michael as he can reboot Janets (which as we should all know are superior to Derek's in every way) as well as create them with preparation now, this scales to Janet for obvious reasons, and the Judge because she is superior the Michael. This also scales to The Judge's law manipulation as she is still presented as being the law maker of all the afterlife despite the fact that Derek exists and is manufacturable.

Janet
Janet views the past present and future at the same time as stated by herself to Jason, this should give her immeasurable perception speed
 
Michael and everyone else should get 10-B physically, also the Low 2-C is wank, but not gonna get into that right now.

I wouldn't call the door dissimulation death manipulation, since it showed it acting more like their essence was being broken down and sprinkled around on everyone on Earth. So more like soul manipulation? It was weird, I'm not quite certain what it would be.

>and considering it could kill the four main humans it negates mid godly Regenerationn

What?

Michael not being affected by it is because that was designed specifically for humans, not because he resisted it.

I vehemently disagree with tier 1 Gen, Michael and Kanet.

Derek could be 1-A, if the show treated dimensions as qualitatively superior, but from what I recall it doesn't. He should get Low 1-C at least though.

I don't see why they would get type 2 concept manipulation, nor Janet getting "immeasurable perception speed".
 
Immeasurable perception speed because she views time in a non linear fashion, if I was moving this way I would be perfectly applicable for immeasurable speed.


I'm fairly sure it's type 2 concept manipulation since they don't affect their physical counterparts like an aristotlean one. Though it might just be type 4 tbf.


Yeah, you are probably right about the door, considering essence and souls are considered different it might be life manipulation. I did think about the whole "dissolving into the universe" statements but at times it doesn't seem like it should be trusted. I thought Michael should be able to resist it as he literally created it and thought he could go through, which means it was more about his physiology as he would understand that less than a door that he himself created.


I've heard before that certain CRTs have suggested that Janet has mid godly and has given those powers to the four humans though whether this is wank or not is up for questio there has been no mention of taking those away from my memory


I think mathematical transcendence is also considered 1-A as shown by the manifold trilogy characters but I'll probably need to check that one. Also I don't think the good place has ever outright disproved the ideas of dimensional superiority, just that IHOP doesn't follow string theory in its size (and considering that doesn't apply to actual logic, just so called "empirical data", ergo not applying to the wiki and the theory itself being considered controversial and slightly useless nowadays I think it's safe to say that we shouldn't use it). Therefore, I think we can probably say "Low 1-C, possibly 1-A". Also omnipresent speed considering he literally contained all space


Michael, Janet and Gen should be that tier with preparation, due to being able to achieve this similar to Cindy Saint Claire, as well as the fact that the judge still had ultimate control with Derek existing, showing she should be able to affect him.


I mean, there is a lot of good place wank that I made a CRT for but nobody commented which was sad.
 
Sorry for posting that in a weird order but it's obvious what I am addressing.
 
I still don't see how that's immeasurable perception speed to be honest.

And sure, but my question is why would anyone get conceptual manipulation? The closest thing is that they "snorted time", which is non-physical interaction at best, I don't remember a single instance where they were outright destroying and/or creating actual concepts.

Yeah, hard no on the mid-godly unless I see some scans.

Mathematical transcendence can be 1-A with sufficient context, yes. But in this case I don't think that's enough. But I'm ok with "At least Low 1-C possibly/likely 1-A".

That's just speculation though. And the only way that they can achieve something close to the Derek if we assume that they can reset Janet enough times and that she could possibly gain that state of existence as well. But that's outside help and they don't have Janet in the standard/optional equipment.
 
The Final Door is probably more akin to Soul Manipulation, if anything, since it disperses their essences across the universe and all that. Michael being unaffected by it is probably moreso because of his nature as a demon and natural resident of the Afterlife. It was pretty clear the Door was only supposed to work on human souls and them alone, so Michael was naturally outside of its effects.

Janet could indeed get Immeasurable Speed, but I'd rather say she just has some form of Omnipresence throughout time.

Darek should be Low 1-C, at most High 1-C if you wanna stretch it far enough, imo, since mathematical transcendence is never implied and is vague without context, same thing with him having no dimension, which doesn't grant automatic 1-A anymore. He also doesn't scale to anyone, since he was pretty clearly portrayed as far more abstract than everyone else and as containing everything within himself.
 
I mean, it's not assumptive to believe that it not working on Demons is because they have resistance, considering that Michael wouldn't put that arbitrary restriction and then literally try to go through it

Mid Godly is literally what is currently on the profiles to my knowledge

also I really should have kept track of the new standard prep time instructions because whilst some could easily achieve that with preparation it might not count as a technicality Considering Derek is an imperfect Janet it is safe to assume that. Tbh, considering Janet literally is equipment it probably should be on Michael's profile (maybe a Shawn profile should be made for that exact purpose),also Mindy was able to achieve the effect so I'm fairly sure it was considered that Gen could handle it considering they let it happen. Also he was seemingly affected by the reset button which is literally a device created by architects. Which even if stat amping with weakness is tier 1 stat amping with weakness and characters should be assumed to have this tier

Fairly sure the The Goddess of The Manifold follows similar reasoning in terms of the mathematical transcendence, this can at least be assumed to be a possibility. Also, excuse my ignorance, but what was the context and reasoning for the "without dimension" to not work as 1-A?
 
This argument can go both ways, though. Michael having invented the Door doesn't necessarily make him knowledgeable on how it functions, especially when he is surprised that it doesn't work on him. Considering the whole subplot of him having to "become a real boy" so he can finally experience completude and cross the door, I am fairly sure it's only supposed to work on Humans, hence Demons like him not being affected.

Yeah, but Derek evolved far past Janet and was rebooted many more times than she was. Him being affected by his reset button wouldn't scale to anyone, either, since Mindy implied that it just naturally sprouted from the ground after Derek spent a while in the Medium Place, so it's not necessarily technology of the Architects, at least not directly, and there's no evidence that anyone physically scales to him either way.

The Goddess of the Manifold is 1-A for transcending an hierarchy of infinite multiverses and encompassing an ensemble of all logically-consistent mathematical structures, I think. Derek's statements don't really come close. Dimensionlessness was also abandoned as a way to be 1-A a while ago; you have to be beyond the concepts of space and time in relation to infinite-dimensional realities or something equivalent to that in order to qualify.
 
I think that Ultima makes sense. Thank you to him and Ogbunabali for helping out.
 
Becoming a human gave him human weaknesses, so it's perfectly plausible it just made him lose his resistance- and again, that would be a weakness of the door which Michael designed entirely and understands more than anyone else.

Yes, but the same thing could be done to Janet that was done to Derek, which means it is achievable via preparation and could be done if one has access to Janets (which Michael as the main architect of the good place probably has that now) they should be able to achieve those effects. Also Judge Gen still scales via Derek likely being considered a non threat


Fair enough, I think there are hints in a violation of mathematics but eh, there probably aren't enough statements to affirm that. Out of curiosity is the High 1-C thing you mentioned about the infamous IHOP statement?
 
I agree with Ultima Reality at some points.

When Michael went through the door. The point is not that Michael has resistance to her or anything, but rather that door only activates when the being in question is ready to leave eternity, and go to the next point, beyond the edge of existence.

It's a matter of accomplishment of being, and not just going through the door, Jason himself went the door, and waited for thousands years there, because he would only feel complete when he gave the necklace to Janet.

Michael was not ready to go, because he still hadn't done the thing he always wanted to do, which was, to become a human.

About Derick, what he says is just that he is being linked in the universe, and not that he has no dimension in a literal way, so much so that he says that his birth, and the end of the universe due to the death of heat, it was the same. Derick evolved so much that it merged with the fabric of space and time, and became a singular point in space with him.

And none of them, including the Judge showed feats or pure establishments to be above Janet/Derick. They always used Derick or Janet's mechanics to do something against them, and that even other humans could do, as Mindy herself took control and "banned" that representation of Derick in the last episode.
 
More what I'm saying is that there is no way Janets or variants thereof would be able to be upgraded if the judge couldn't physically handle them. This likely doesn't scale to the Judge's AP but probably some hax, likely her law manipulation.

Secondly, finding a distance and difference between two things to apparently mean the same essentially means that such a distance is 0 from the perception of the speaker. This is Derek in referral to a distance in the space time continuum, which clearly shows he possesses at least 1 dimensional superiority to the 4th dimension. You could say due to him apparently being "fused" into the universe that Derek's death and the heat death of the universe would be the same, however it was specifically Derek's birth Derek was referring to.

Also, the universe doesn't "contain" the universe so such an idea seems ridiculous- he is on is present but he is superior to the dimensions that were previously in place

As for the door, while yes, the spiritual fulfilment one experiences is the reason they travel through the door it was never stated to be locked if you weren't completed. Jason stayed in the forest for a few thousand Jeremy Berrimy's because he wanted to give the present to Janet- not that he couldn't. It was always the human's choice as to whether or not they would want to leave, they just had to make sure they were fulfilled before doing so- hence why Eleanor was legitimately scared of the door initially (while yes, you might state Eleanor doesn't know too much about the door from a literal standpoint, the analysis previously represented was completely based on a look on the artistic representation). When Janet told Michael why he couldn't go through it was clearly related to his physiology, if such is resistance or not is up for debate.

The Door is weirdest though because Janet has no idea what it would be like, despite by this point literally knowing everything else. I also really want to give it a better power than just being baseline soul manipulation with possible universal range.
 
Anyway, the fusing with the universe idea is ridiculous for a ton of reasons but other points were fine. To ask, what would being "dimensionless" and "both a single point in space and yet containing space itself" come under? Also why isn't being dimensionless allowed if it's implied that this means transcendence to dimensions? Also can these changes be applied to Judge Gen and current Michael (via Michael having access to any good place Janet he wants as equipment, and Gen clearly being capable of supervising characters like Derek)
 
Should we apply Ultima's conclusions here?
 
More or less, but Michael should definitely resist, interpretations are being stated as refutation for it that don't really make sense (again, Michael wouldn't make the limit that "oh, it can only work on humans" and then try to walk through, it still makes sense considering the story purpose since Michael becoming a "real boy" could be interpreted as losing his demon physiology and powers and gaining the weaknesses that define humanity, like how he felt pain after holding a hot pan and laughed)
 
Few propositions. Current low 2-Cs should be downgraded as really there is no evidence of the neighbourhoods themselves being a separate 4-D area they are just 3 dimensional structures present there. Michael should be given two keys, one as a demon and one as the good place administrator, demon form being a 10-B (as he is shown to be hurt by hits Eleanor ranked in season 4 episode 1, plus the feats of him creating the sinkhole and the neighbourhood has been refuted on the show) but High 8-C in his true form due to being 100 metres tall. He will lose incorporeality for obvious reasons. Janet will be given a "3-A possibly High 3-A ranking" due to creating the neighbourhood and possibly her void (though this is debate able as the void could be seen as more a natural ability rather than an environment she herself created) the Judge scales above 40 Janet's so this ranking applies to her. All characters should probably be given 1-C precognition as all should be able to see in the 9th dimension which can be used for such purposes (IHOP proves the superior nature of dimensions) and Michael as an administrator may possibly have High 1-C preparation via having access to Dereks. I might handle making the Derek profile which should essentially just be Janet's profile in many regards with a second key in which he is a High 1-C given, omnipresence, acausality type 5 and abstract existence type 1 (due to prior stated evidence). Also sorry for speaking here instead of someone more experienced, I just remembered about the thread and wanted to state these planned changes.
 
You should ask more staff members to comment here.
 
The neighbourhoods aren't universal in size. And still hard no on tier 1 Michael/Gen.

And also no on Acausality type 5 for Derek.
 
Let it be recorded that I was calling for a tier 1 good place ever since Season 1, long before the verse even existed on the wiki
 
But there was no evidence the 9th dimension was a legitimate dimension then.

Also I never said a tier 1 Gen, just that administrator Michael should have Janets as optional equipment and ergo should be able to create a being like Derek with prep. Also, it would be more efficient if you went to refute my propitious directly instead of saying no. I appreciate that it is assumptive to suggest that Gen scales to Derek, but there is a strong claim for Michael have Janets as optional equipment and should be able to create Derek with preparation.

I'm fine with it being potentially 4-C tbh, there are probably some 3-A scans I could find but it probably wouldn't be worth it

Transcending events and ergo seeing them to be the same thing seems like acausality type 5 from memory but enlighten me if I am incorrect
 
Tbf that seems more like reality warping than any physical stats, considering it doesn't scale to dura
 
Ultima already went through why that shouldn't be the case for the Janets.

I mean, it's not 4-C either, as shown when Michael kicked the dog in the sun, it only travelled for a couple of seconds and we could even see the smoke cloud it makes when the dog vaporizes.

That's type 4 acasuality at best. You need very good evidence if you want type 5, and not just a 10 second exposition.

Also speaking of type 4 acasuality everyone who has it based on Jeremy Bearimy needs to have it removed. Because, as per the definition on the page itself, it's characters that abide on different cause of effect, not just existing in a place where time is different, considering normal humans live in Jeremy Bearimy's as well. It'd be like giving everyone who lives in a different time zone, or a different planet type 4 because "time works differently there".

There's a lot more wank on the profiles, but I'm too busy to go through it right now.
 
This was the kind of stuff I put on my CRT before btw


Also Ultima only said that the button didn't scale to anyone other than Derek, if that's what you are referring to. Janet would eventually scale to Derek if she was rebooted that many times, this has not been a refuted statement because Ultima said on discord Derek is just a worse Janet, if Janets and Dereks were subject to the same conditions a Janet would always prove superior.
 
"Making sense" is obviously not intuition based and such "analytics" are not appropriate means for justification. Derek directly scales to Janet in terms of how much they can achieve with upgrades, and Administrator Michael has access to Janets
 
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