Fixing Lee Soo-Jin speed tag.

[Andykhang]

In the page, the speed section is stated to be MFTL+ because she was comparable with the Monkey King. Aside from his actual speed, there's no instant in the comic that she fight the latest version of that character ( which have been stated to have that speed). So, i want to downgrade her speed to the latest instant of her fight with him, which is MHS+

 

[KuuIchigo]

You should change the title.

 

[Andykhang]

Done, still feel it ridiculous though

 

[GreatestSin]

i dont think there is a speed difference between the jin who she fought against and the jin we saw later :/ was there any hint or mention that the current one is stronger (in his stats) than the version she fought against?

 

[RegisNex1232]

She should be MFTL with Pandora and Curse, in base she should be MHS+. She could react to and fight the First Prince for a brief while when she and Park Ilpyo were stalling and trying to get the Gourd. Her fight with Jin base mode is an outlier if we consider that Jin to be as strong as current Jin without armor, since they were both depowered (she wasn't using Pandora and he was tired from fighting most of the Sage Realm arc).

 

[Andykhang]

After the fight, JIn got lossed in space. In there, he trained himself out of boredom in a special kind of atmosphere. Then after that, he fought against King, who throw entire planet to him and still came out unscratched. Then eve later o, he fight against the 7 Owner , which should be way stronger than her at this point. Like Goku whom came from him (Or rather, Monkey King) as an inspiration, he get stronger with every life-to-death battle and training.

 

[RegisNex1232]

We don't know how much faster/stronger he got after Oraeguk, so saying that he gets exponentially faster/stronger is a bit too much.

 

[Andykhang]

Yeah, which is why i also find it ridiculous to make him have a speed of MFTL+ just right after he got the battle armor. But i'm not talking about that. The point is that there is no evident that she could be comparable to him right now, when he is definitively way stronger.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Yeah, which is why i also find it ridiculous to make him have a speed of MFTL+ just right after he got the battle armor. But i'm not talking about that. The point is that there is no evident that she could be comparable to him right now, when he is definitively way stronger.

She's comparable to the Crown Princes with her Charyeok, not in base. With Charyeok, she was holding her own against the Crown Princes, who are MFTL from scaling to Jin pre Oraeguk explosion. Jin is MFTL as he can react to his staff's expansion. Jin being MFTL+ in Speed Mode is because he went from an unknown planet, presumably in a different Solar System to the King in a few minutes. We also don't know Jin's current limits as he hasn't been in a lot of fights lately, though that might change after the break. Regardless, Lee is MFTL with Charyeok by the above scaling.

 

[Andykhang]

isn't his staff expansion only rate itself on Sub-Relativistic+ (0.08c). Which, in close fight, could have been seen as instant? So, like you're saying, he should be only react on such speed.

 

[RegisNex1232]

This is his speed stats: Massively FTL combat/reaction speed and flight speed (also the speed the Ruyi Jingu Bang extends), Faster travel speed with Kinto-Un

So, staff expansion isn't Sub-Rel+ like you think, it's MFTL. Jin reacts to that and Lee, the Crown Princes, Park with Charyeok, Baek with Charyeok and the King can all react to and fight at the same speed.

 

[Andykhang]

Please, show me proof on that before i could believe you.

 

[Kavpeny]

@TheMightyRegulator: Does this thread really merit a highlight? I feel otherwise, but since I'm not familiar with the Verse, I leave the decision up to you.

P.S.: Here are the guide-lines regarding thread highlighting.

 

[Nonickfound]

Soo-Jin did fought against the third prince and won, she also did intercept the first prince mid attack, whose speed is MTFL.

 

[Andykhang]

Again, that is based on how well he react with the staff. Which, again, only showed going as Sub-Relativistic+. (Based on one calculation i found on this site anyway. Give me proof that this thing could go MFTL before i could believe you.)

 

[Andykhang]

If you can't give me any proof, could i officially changed the speed stat of her? Maybe it need a change in the staff speed association though.

 

[RegisNex1232]

It went from the Earth to the Moon which is 384,400 km before MHS+ characters like Han Daewi, Yu Mira, the Nephilims blitzing them, and Jaegal Taek with the Key could react. So distance is found easily, for the timeframe we can assume as a very, very low end 1s (even though they have much faster reaction time). This gives us 384,400 km/s = 384,400,000 m/s = 1.2 times the speed of light which is FTL. If we take into account reaction times of the characters involved, who couldn't see it appearing, it becomes even higher. So Sub-Rel+ is too low.

 

[Andykhang]

Don't ask me, i based that on the calculation doing from here:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...Ruyi_Jingu_Bang's_very_first_extension_(GOHS)

And yeah, but MFTL is too high. Physics stopped working even at lightspeed, so his staff should have destroyed the universe the moment it expand. That, or this thing used space expansion between particle, and got heavier and denser because it absord and used dark energy , and energy=mass. ( dark energy is the theoreticle energy explained for expanding space ,though i can't find proof for that). Point is, it should be reasonable to tweak it at only FTL (at best).

 

[RegisNex1232]

He took a low end as well as scaling from the sizes of the Moon and the Earth. Not really reliable considering the author's tendency to emphasize things at times, for example the planets thrown at Jin Mori looking like meteors.

Again, Superman, Thor, the Silver Surver all fly at MFTL+ speeds, Goku and others fight at FTL+ speeds, yet no one complains, why should we apply double standards here? As for FTL, that is a very, very low end, as I didn't take into account that the characters have reaction times that allow them to dodge lightning at point blank range. If I did take that as the timeframe, the actual speed would be much, much higher.

 

[Andykhang]

Lightning at it fastest is 5 time slower than light though. That beside the point. Not to mention these are different universe with confirmed feat right there, or the fact that these fight would be too devastating to be on earth even at those universe.


You said it was high, but how high it is? You can't give me proof that these thing could have gone at MFTL, other than the supposed fact that the guy can dodge the staff's expansion going at maximum speed, even though it could go slower, way slower than you think it is because there's no one tried to calculate the actual speed he's letting his staff expand in his fight. Calling me grasping at straw if you want, but logically, he shouldn't let his staff to achieve even near the speed of light if Newton's Third Law end up destroying the earth.

 

[GreatestSin]

^that is grasping for straws, andy, you are using logic of RL for the abilitys of the monkey king? which btw is a god, so even in RL, (if he existed), we dont even know if he would be bound to this stuff :/ appereanty, he survives in space without difficulty, logically he should suffocate

as for the staffs speed: what is the reason for the staff to go slower? i mean, has there ever been a fight where mori was using his stuff without a need to defeat his enemy?

 

[Andykhang]

^ Because going lightspeed on earth is pretty much suicidal, from atmospheric burning to atomic explosion, down right to how he could ejected the air to go at Large Hardon Collider speed, making an air version of beta radiation. Plus, he didn't showed these effect when his staff is expanding on earth. (saying so though, the fact that the huge staff didn't instantly eject all the air surround the area when it first touched the earth is strange, though pretty much prove my point)


Also, the story does use some RL physics. Like how the fan blow all the air away, so the Ox King must hold her breath to survive vaccuum environment. Just that it's become reasonable for him to breathe in space because he have been showed to do so.

 

[The_Everlasting]

If you're trying to apply this logic to fiction, we're going to have very, very serious problems with tiering in general, as many fictions don't bother to adhere to these rules (Some are blatant with this, some are not).

I first direct you to Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, the verse with a final battle between mechs nearly twice as large as the largest galaxies in the universe.

Or maybe Saint Seiya? Where even mid-tiers can travel at and beyond lightspeed?

Or how about Dragon Ball Z, with characters traveling at speeds dozens to quadrillions of times FTL with no ill effect?

You cannot apply the "nothing can move FTL" logic to fiction unless the fiction adheres to said rule. It is completely illogical and making characters seem far slower than they actually are.

 

[KuuIchigo]

I agree. Why bring logic into fiction?

 

[Andykhang]

^ Because if you want to calculate something properly, you must at least assume that it follow the natural law of our world. The fact that you calculate something mean that you're pushing our world's logic onto them.


I agree with Everlasting point, but the comic does follow RL logic and natural law. That why for the fan to wipe out all the air in the surrounding and creating a vacuum effect, yet the staff going at lightspeed don't, either the logic is inconsistent, or the staff isn't actually going at such speed.

 

[The_Everlasting]

There's such a thing as fiction using some real life laws, but not others.

 

[Reppuzan]

^ Because if you want to calculate something properly, you must at least assume that it follow the natural law of our world. The fact that you calculate something mean that you're pushing our world's logic onto them.

I agree with Everlasting point, but the comic does follow RL logic and natural law. That why for the fan to wipe out all the air in the surrounding and creating a vacuum effect, yet the staff going at lightspeed don't, either the logic is inconsistent, or the staff isn't actually going at such speed.

I don't think running fast enough to instantly close a distance across an island after someone teleported counts as following real laws. Neither does moving fast enough to dodge lightning. Or balancing a boxing ring on the tip of a wooden sword without breaking the sword.

 

[RegisNex1232]

^ Because if you want to calculate something properly, you must at least assume that it follow the natural law of our world. The fact that you calculate something mean that you're pushing our world's logic onto them.

I agree with Everlasting point, but the comic does follow RL logic and natural law. That why for the fan to wipe out all the air in the surrounding and creating a vacuum effect, yet the staff going at lightspeed don't, either the logic is inconsistent, or the staff isn't actually going at such speed.

It really doesn't, you have a dude who can use magic to turn 700+ nukes into one giant missile and use a meteor from space as the hammer to drive it in, another person who destroyed an island just by using their hands in the first chapter. Even before that, you have the martial arts where people can form flames, air blasts or tornadoes just by kicking. So saying that it follows RL logic by using a one-off example is idiotic, to say the least.

 

[Andykhang]

The physical implication of such action is still there (like tornado atually harm people, or using flow of air itself to fight), so it's still follow the RL (at least fundamental) law.

 

[KuuIchigo]

So you're not going to accept FTL because the manhwa has RL logic in it?

 

[Andykhang]

No, It's more like i'm not accepting MFTL because it's too ridiculous( FTL dodging =/= MFTL reaction). And it just snowballing to there.

 

[GreatestSin]

^but isnt it logical that you need faster reaction speed in order to rvognize the thread and a at least similar dodging speed in order to dodge the object in question?

think about a bullet: if i have the same reaction and dodging speed as the bullet i will mostlikely still be hit, but if i recognize the moving bullet a lot faster, than i can dodge beforehand even if my dodging has a similar speed as the bullet ^_^

 

[Reppuzan]

No, It's more like i'm not accepting MFTL because it's too ridiculous( FTL dodging =/= MFTL reaction). And it just snowballing to there.

You used the Mars distance for the planets so I used the same distance but somehow your calc is more valid than mine. Okay.

 

[RegisNex1232]

^He's talking about the staff expansion, which is what the God tiers scale to. I'll be doing a rough calculation here, so if I make mistakes, please point them out.

Jin has barely dodged lightning at close range here: http://www.webtoons.com/en/action/the-god-of-high-school/ep-132/viewer?title_no=66&episode_no=132 towards the middle. The device is also capable of cloud to ground lightning, which Han Daewi dodged more successfully and is made to mimic Mori's own Kinto-Un, which has also shown cloud to ground lightning.

Using the Lightning dodging calculation for Jin, I get a value of Mach 1100 (1.7*440,000/2) with the average speed of lightning and Mach 250 with the low end speed of lightning (10^5 m/s). For Daewi I get around 2200 m/s and 500 m/s. We'll take that as the low, mid and high ends for this calc (Han with lowest speed of lightning is low end, Jin with average speed of lightning is high end). I'll take reaction times as the time needed to move 1m in any direction, as that involves movement of hands and legs which is what is needed in combat (this part is all guess work, so I may be wrong. A calc group member might know better).

Reaction times would be 2 milliseconds (low end), 0.45 milliseconds (mid-low end), 12 microseconds (mid-high end) and 3 microseconds (high end). These are our timeframes for the time taken for the staff to go from the Moon to the Earth. They might seem extreme, but that is due to the speed difference between the two feats.

Distance is 384,400 km.

Low end = 384,400,000m / 2*10^-3s = 1.92*10^11 m/s = 641 times the SOL (MFTL)

Mid end (low) = 384,400,000m / 4.5*10^-4s = 8.46*10^11 m/s = 2819 times the SOL (MFTL+)

Mid end (high) = 384,400,000m / 12*10^-6s = 3.2*10^13 m/s = 1.1*10^5 times the SOL (MFTL+)

High end = 384,400,000m / 3*10^-6s = 1.3*10^14 m/s = 4.3*10^5 times the SOL (MFTL+)

So even if take the lowest end, the expansion speed is still MFTL and anyone who can react to it have MFTL reaction/combat speed. This includes Jin, The Nine-Tailed Fox, King Uma, Park, Baek and Lee with Charyeok, the Crown Princes and the King.

 

[Reppuzan]

Be very careful, this looks like a case of calc stacking. I don't think it's allowed to use the results of one calc to calculate another.

I mean, a member of the calc time will have to give the final say, but still...

 

[RegisNex1232]

I know, but this is just a rough version, since I needed the timeframe and these characters have the reaction feats we can use. That said, I've got to go now, if a calc member wants to fix it, I'll be around tomorrow to reply to any comments.

 

[Andykhang]

Yeah, you're still lacking the actual speed the staff go at the time. And like i said, lightspeed is suicide.

 

[The_Everlasting]

And like we said, fiction does not remotely care if that would be a thing. This is a series that, while following some forms of logic, is not 100% scientifically accurate (Again, look at TTGL is you want to say "Lightspeed is suicide").

 

[Reppuzan]

...

You are impossible.

Does Superman kill himself every he flies across the universe?

No.

Did Goku die by flying across the universe in hours while fighting Beerus?

No.

Did TTGL burn up while fighting the Anti Spiral?

No.

We've given you speed calcs but you refuse to accept them.

Do you understand what you're reading? Speed = Distance/Time. The staff hit the ground from the moon before anyone could react, which means that we have distance and a timeframe and thus speed.

Physics is great for calcualting AP, but for speed we generally throw it out the window at this point since so many characters move at impossible speeds.

 

[Blahblah9755]

@RegisNex1232 According to OBD 100 microseconds is the minimum perception speed of an MHS character, so maybe that would be better to use since I don't think it's considered calc stacking if you use the minimum value for a tier as opposed to a calced value (that's what was done for Undertale KE and Magical Girl of the End speed)