• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Frick this sense of Deja Vu 2: Electric Boogaloo

I return to the depths of Hell from whence I came.

And if they were "just beings from another realm", why did it state they come from the fourth dimension if it was just some random realm? If it was just some random realm, why didn't it state what that realm was?

Because the scan itself doesn't state that they come from the "fourth dimension", and the text assigning an ordinal position to it doesn't necessarily mean that it's treating it as a place, since axes of movement can also be coloquially referred to as "the nth dimension", as is the case with time in a bunch of times, for example.

As I said, the scan just says that the Zigg'raugglur can operate in the fourth dimension, which can just as easily mean that they can move through an additional axis. "Are capable of operating in the reputed fourth dimension" doesn't equal "Inhabit a plane of existence called the fourth dimension", as you are implying here.

Extradimensional literally means to have more then the 3 + 1 Dimensions

"Extra dimensions" is a term that's normally used to refer to additional axes belonging to some space in a scientific context, yeah, but "extradimensional" can also just mean something that comes from outside of the normal reality, a descriptor which certainly fits with the Shard Realms, and anything in the astral plane, for that matter, so it doesn't really mean anything here.

Your issue was with them being the same existential scale "merely higher or lower realms", when I proved they transcend each other, do I need to define "the" and "because" too? These are accepted wiki terms, why is there a sudden effort to prove something that's in the dictionary and the site.

Because your proof was mostly the fact that Mages are said to "transcend" into higher planes, when this very word simply means "to go beyond/outside", so it doesn't necessarily mean that the realms are each qualitative above one another, just that they have separate structures.

"Wiki terms" are largely just buzzwords that get thrown around so much in discussions involving high-tiered verses that people start acting like they are trigger-phrases that automatically skyrocket any verse that mentions them to new levels. "Transcendence" and variations thereof are such words. It all depends on context, really.

(And yes, I am aware of the scan you posted mentioning ascendance bringing Mages to higher levels of existence, so you don't need to accuse me of ignoring scans or being contrarian for no reason or whatever. I am just addressing this specific point in this specific paragraph)

Here you go.

Is this really refering to the same "extradimensional hierarchy" mentioned in Infinite Tapestry, though? This one seems to treat Ascension as being far more of a big deal for a Mage than just traveling to other realms in the astral plane, or to the higher and lower planes of existence mentioned in that one scan that supposedly states that ascension is how all realms in WoD are structured in relation to one another (Although I know you don't want to use that one as primary evidence for High 1-B, so I'll just leave it be)
 
Udlmaster said:
snip
Click to expand...
Udl, please, be rational. WoD isn't getting worse treatment than any other verse in the wiki. Similar cases to this have happened, such as in this thread, where a similar stacking of planes of existence was rated as just 2-A because there wasn't enough context on whether or not said planes were actually qualitative above one another.

Not to mention that DC used to be rated at High 1-B, with one of the main scans to support it being one where "parallel universes and infinite dimensions" were mentioned as separate terms. Yet, it was downgraded to 1-B because the phrasing was vague and it was blatantly obvious from context alone that it was referring to other realms of existence and not higher dimensions.

considering verses like "I will seal the Heavens" gets High 1-B and 1-A based on infinite dimensions being called in relation to length, width and breadth, so literally just vectors of movement

Yes, because the tiering system still accepts spatial dimensions of that kind to be valid for higher tiers, so long as they refer to an entire universe or multiverse having multiple additional dimensions, and not just some random alien that exists as just an insignificant subset of a higher-dimensional space, or if it isn't just some vague-ass statement mentioning additional dimensions without specifying what it is referring to.

Cthulhu Mythos, that gets High 1-B to 1-A+ on their dimensions stacking infinities.

As far as I remember, the Cthulhu Mythos actually treat their dimensions as an hierarchy where everything in a lower dimension is just an infinitesimally small slice cut from a higher dimensional space, with this process continuing endlessly, and it gets 1-A+ because of Hypnos describing another universe that's deeper and more fundamental than the physical, waking world and it's space-time, which in turn contains an hierarchy of "vacua" or "obstacles" that when crossed, take an individual to deeper and more primal levels of reality until they reach the Ultimate Void.

Not to mention that the verse also has statements describing how an entire universe and its infinite space-time is trivialized by a larger universe in which it is just an atom, which is then contained by a larger one ad-infinitum. All of this is much more solid evidence than anything you have shown, and I am fairly sure that I'm not the only one who thinks so.

So, no, WoD isn't victim of some conspiracy nor is it being treated unfairly. I simply disagree with you, and that's the end of it.
 
>Because the scan itself doesn't state that they come from the "fourth dimension", and the text assigning an ordinal position to it doesn't necessarily mean that it's treating it as a place, since axes of movement can also be coloquially referred to as "the nth dimension", as is the case with time in a bunch of times, for example.

This is just being dishonest to what 99.999999% of Fiction actually uses higher dimension for. What actual writer knows anything about vectors of movement and ordinal position. You're adding in skeptism for its own sake. Need I bring up the wikis strongest 1-A literally calls their Dimensions "Angled space".

>As I said, the scan just says that the Zigg'raugglur can operate in the fourth dimension, which can just as easily mean that they can move through an additional axis. "Are capable of operating in the reputed fourth dimension" doesn't equal "Inhabit a plane of existence called the fourth dimension", as you are implying here.

And why do you think the most powerful mages in existence, beings who can create Universes with a spell would be scared of the 4th Dimension? No takers for the most obvious thing that every Sci-fi - Fantasy series does ever. And yes, it is a realm, they even state it's from beyond the Horizen, not where the Mages are at that time.

>"Extra dimensions" is a term that's normally used to refer to additional axes belonging to some space in a scientific context, yeah, but "extradimensional" can also just mean something that comes from outside of the normal reality, a descriptor which certainly fits with the Shard Realms, and anything in the astral plane, for that matter, so it doesn't really mean anything here.

No, it doesn't, no Sci-Fi writer uses it like that, this is just blatant dishonesty to add more hoops to jump through. Extra meaning to have more and Dimensional means to "Have more dimensions". Hell, the extra part can literally mean "Superior".

>Because your proof was mostly the fact that Mages are said to "transcend" into higher planes, when this very word simply means "to go beyond/outside", so it doesn't necessarily mean that the realms are each qualitative above one another, just that they have separate structures.

To which no other verse has ever required to define before. Sure, they have to define the superiority between dimensions, but transcendence has never needed to be defined. Although, you'll likely get some obsure verse from 2018 where the same thing happened, which would only prove my point.

>Is this really refering to the same "extradimensional hierarchy" mentioned in Infinite Tapestry, though? This one seems to treat Ascension as being far more of a big deal for a Mage than just traveling to other realms in the astral plane, or to the higher and lower planes of existence mentioned in that one scan that supposedly states that ascension is how all realms in WoD are structured in relation to one another (Although I know you don't want to use that one as primary evidence for High 1-B, so I'll just leave it be)

Ascension seemingly has nothing to do with the Otherworlds, what matters is how they use and define transcendence which matters.

>Udl, please, be rational. WoD isn't getting worse treatment than any other verse in the wiki. Similar cases to this have happened, such as in this thread, where a similar stacking of planes of existence was rated as just 2-A because there wasn't enough context on whether or not said planes were actually qualitative above one another.

An incredibly obscure verse from 2018 proves my point and how these are only used selectively and never used consistantly.

>Not to mention that DC used to be rated at High 1-B, with one of the main scans to support it being one where "parallel universes and infinite dimensions" were mentioned as separate terms. Yet, it was downgraded to 1-B because the phrasing was vague and it was blatantly obvious from context alone that it was referring to other realms of existence and not higher dimensions.

So here you've proven the double standard because there it's 1-B to High 1-B, but here it's totally unusable because you've placed before me impossible hoops to jump through which no other verse has to jump through.

>Yes, because the tiering system still accepts spatial dimensions of that kind to be valid for higher tiers, so long as they refer to an entire universe or multiverse having multiple additional dimensions, and not just some random alien that exists as just an insignificant subset of a higher-dimensional space, or if it isn't just some vague-ass statement mentioning additional dimensions without specifying what it is referring to.

Then why throughout this entire thread you've been dismissing spatial dimensions for vectors of movement when "I will seal the Heavens" DEADASS is just that, they don't even state they're superior. This is a blatant doublestandard because you didn't even read their scans before giving you approval meanwhile, WoD has the most BS hoops to drump through.

>As far as I remember, the Cthulhu Mythos actually treat their dimensions as an hierarchy where everything in a lower dimension is just an infinitesimally small slice cut from a higher dimensional space, with this process continuing endlessly

What happened to "Stacking infinities doesn't give you more dimensions".

>and it gets 1-A+ because of Hypnos describing another universe that's deeper and more fundamental than the physical, waking world and it's space-time, which in turn contains an hierarchy of "vacua" or "obstacles" that when crossed, take an individual to deeper and more primal levels of reality until they reach the Ultimate Void.

That doesn't sound like even a transcendence at all, considering extradimensional hierarchy is "Too vague", that is literally unreadable.

>Not to mention that the verse also has statements describing how an entire universe and its infinite space-time is trivialized by a larger universe in which it is just an atom

"What happened to "Stacking infinities doesn't give you more dimensions"."

>which is then contained by a larger one ad-infinitum. All of this is much more solid evidence than anything you have shown, and I am fairly sure that I'm not the only one who thinks so.

This is just stacking infinities, as Serasaid, to which you agreed:

SeraEX said: We've been established stacking infinites does not grant someone an extra dimension for a while now. We always rank them as "At least" that tier. Infinitely above a bunch of Low 2-Cs? You are At least Low 2-C. Infinitely above a High 2-A? You are At least High 2-A. You don't get a likely "2-C", likely "Low 1-C" or what have you that way.
 
That's not... stacking infinities. Being infinitely above destroying a timeline is not the same as all of 3-D space being treated as an immensely small slice of a higher dimension, making that higher realm superior in size and scope to the lower dimension, the whole point of the tier 1 stuff in the tiering system.

Scaling infinitely above Low 2-C doesn't get you a new rating because the distance from low 2-C to 2-C is completely unknown, likewise the distance between lower dimensional and higher dimensional power is utterly and completely unknown and can't be assigned for such a thing, and it is an example that has literally zero in common with a higher dimension being described as, indeed, much bigger than a lower one, which is what Cthulhu mythos does.
 
>That's not... stacking infinities. Being infinitely above destroying a timeline is not the same as all of 3-D space being treated as an immensely small slice of a higher dimension, making that higher realm superior in size and scope to the lower dimension, the whole point of the tier 1 stuff in the tiering system.

You just described the same thing, to an infinitely superior being, the thing below it would be infintesmal in comparison, you are describing the same scenario.

"This thing is infinitely superior to this thing"

"This thing is infintesmal to this infinitely superior thing"
 
The difference is that being stated infinitely above or whatever doesn't get it, scaling to dimensions that are infinitely bigger or just bigger than a 3-D space though, does. We don't assume being infinitely above a low 2-C universe means you are a dimensional level above it, unlike being able to affect affect a dimensional level above that low 2-C universe that is shown to be bigger or qualitatively superior to it. The first is simply vague, and as dumb as saying being infinitely above Low 2-C should get you into 2-C. Scaling like that doesn't get you those ratings, feats or scaling to someone that has feats does.

You are mixing completely different scenarios that have nothing to do with each other.
 
>The difference is that being stated infinitely above or whatever doesn't get it, scaling to dimensions that are infinitely bigger or just bigger than a 3-D space though, does.

That's stacking infinites, the only different property is what is infinitely larger.
 
I really don't care if you think they are similar Uld, they are not the same just because you think they are. The whole point of the new system is being able to affect higher dimensional spaces that are bigger or qualitatively superior to a low 2-C universe. The first case doesn't get it because scaling infinitely above doesn't get you a new tier from tier 2 and above, the second does because it is proving the higher dimension is indeed superior above the lower one.

If you will just keep saying this is stacking infinities, then you can remain convinced of that I guess, it still doesn't mean it's true.
 
Udl has presented the relevant information for his case, and has defended his case diligently. If you disagree with the reasons and evidence given, present your case with the diligency Udl has, not attack him on a level of "what he thinks".
 
I have presented relevant information as well. There's no attack, so you can kindly do the same and provide something of substance if you are even gonna attempt to talk here, instead of waste my time.

How can you seriously use that as an argument when even Dragon explains how Uld's comparison is wrong in the very next comment, that Sera and Ultima obviously agree with as well? "I of course agree with this. I believe there is a stark difference between being infinitely above someone in power and infinitely above someone dimensionally."
 
I refuse to derail this thread because of your clear personal connection to this thread for some odd reason, so if I'm wasting your time as you ostracize Udl from "thinking" for himself, then I'm budding out of this thread and unsubscribing. I already gave my opinion on the situation.
 
Yes, I would judge him for thinking the situations are the exact same despite me saying why they are not and him not explaining why he thinks they are, and him thinking this despite participing in the very thread where this was clearly explained. Why should I try to change what he thinks if he proves unwilling to explain his thought process and his conclusion despite me explaining back?

Thanks, once more, for wasting both our times with stuff wholly unrelated to the thread.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Yes, I would judge him for thinking the situations are the exact same despite me saying why they are not and him not explaining why he thinks they are, and him thinking this despite participing in the very thread where this was clearly explained. Why should I try to change what he thinks if he proves unwilling to explain his thought process and his conclusion despite me explaining back?
Thanks, once more, for wasting both our times with stuff wholly unrelated to the thread.
Click to expand...
You can say they're not the same, but that doesn't make it true.

I displayed to you how they're the same, you're just replacing 1 word which still goes against what the thread was about, but obviously, there's no point because it's just going to go round and round in circles, this revision has been going on for months and I'm tired of the hypocracy and double standards displayed for WoD merely because people dislike the verse.
 
And I've displayed how they are not, just like the thread you linked did. Scaling infinitely above someone in power doesn't make you a dimensional level above them, while a higher dimension being infinitely bigger than a lower dimension is no different from saying it is bigger, which is one of the requirements in the new tiering system. The very thread you are using as proof notes this very same freaking difference, the thread in which you commented. If you exist in said higher dimensional level, or can affect said dimension, you are dimensionally above the person.

And I am gonna be honest Uld, drop that bullshit attitude. People don't agree with your ratings so its gotta be double standards and disliking a verse? I knew and liked WoD before I even knew you existed, take your appeal to motive somewhere else because that damn response is getting old when people disagree with someone.
 
>And I am gonna be honest Uld, drop that bullshit attitude. People don't agree with your ratings so its gotta be double standards and disliking a verse?

I'm pretty sure you mind blanked then, look up above, I gave examples of this double standards, I outlined them twice.

> I knew and liked WoD before I even knew you existed

Sure, buddy.

>take your appeal to motive somewhere else because that damn response is getting old when people disagree with someone.

Objectively not, I wouldn't mind if the opposition was in the least bit honest, but as I've outlined above, it's not honest, it's very intellectually dishonest, one standard for a verse people like like "I shall seal the Heavens" which directly calls its dimensions "Length, Width and Breadth" gets automatic High 1-B from Ultima, but here I am jumping through hoops.
 
I am supposed to agree with them because you say they are double standards? Is Ultima supposed to, which he evidently doesn't? You making a point doesn't, by that simple merit, mean I will agree with that point in the slightest. If you have an issue with another verse that you think is relevant, bring up a CRT to get the rating changed if you think it is the same as this situation that isn't allowing WoD the tier, simple as that.

Oh great, now deciding you must be the start of my interest or knowledge of WoD in any shape, way or form. I see you've really stopped trying.

Explicitly saying spatial dimensions are still allowed within the tiering is being hypocritical...? I mean, I guess, sure? Go make a CRT about downgrading it if you think the mention of breadth, Length and Width should discredit the dimensions from being superior or of not-insignificant size.
 
>I am supposed to agree with them because you say they are double standards?

I didn't just say they were double standards, I showed you they were, but go off.

> Is Ultima supposed to, which he evidently doesn't?

Supposed to [to be consistant with his agreement for Verses on the subject of High 1-B and not be dishonest], yeah, he is, as he's given his approval before based on the same amount of substantial evidence.

His current issue is either these dimensions don't mean Higher dimensions, which I proved with Extradimensional hierarchy statement talking about the same dimensions, and they actually mean Vectors of movement, that statement which Ultima approved for ISSTH actually states they're just vectors of movement, the thread in which he gave support never stated they were superior, not in a hierarchy and not even transcendent, just vectors of movement.

>You making a point doesn't, by that simple merit, mean I will agree with that point in the slightest.

Never remotely even said that, don't put words in my mouth.

>If you have an issue with another verse that you think is relevant, bring up a CRT to get the rating changed if you think it is the same as this situation that isn't allowing WoD the tier, simple as that.

I shouldn't have to point out the hypocracy with the ADMINS, they should be consistant with their approval.

>Oh great, now deciding you must be the start of my interest or knowledge of WoD in any shape, way or form. I see you've really stopped trying.

I didn't say nor imply that, again, stop putting words into my mouth.

>Explicitly saying spatial dimensions are still allowed within the tiering is being hypocritical...?

Not what I was even remotely talking about. Length, Width and Breadth are vectors of movement. Ultima's disapproval comes from WoD's dimensions possibly being vectors of movement. Ultima approved ISSTH anyway. This a double standard.

>Go make a CRT about downgrading it if you think the mention of breadth, Length and Width should discredit the dimensions from being superior or of not-insignificant size.

See above on why I shouldn't have to be the police for the Admins internal consistancy.
 
One, I was mainly talking about your statement about stacking infinities at the start. The cases you are not comparing are not the same at all. Second, this is what you said: "Then why throughout this entire thread you've been dismissing spatial dimensions for vectors of movement when "I will seal the Heavens" DEADASS is just that, they don't even state they're superior. This is a blatant doublestandard because you didn't even read their scans before giving you approval meanwhile, WoD has the most BS hoops to drump through."

This is what Ultiima said: "Yes, because the tiering system still accepts spatial dimensions of that kind to be valid for higher tiers, so long as they refer to an entire universe or multiverse having multiple additional dimensions, and not just some random alien that exists as just an insignificant subset of a higher-dimensional space, or if it isn't just some vague-ass statement mentioning additional dimensions without specifying what it is referring to."

Refer again to the tiering guidelines. "This rating can be reached by 5 and 6-dimensional constructs and spaces when they are either of an infinite (or otherwise non-insignificant) size or portrayed as qualitatively greater than lower-dimensional objects in their setting."

Higher dimensions were, before, conceptualized as near infinitesily small in size despite still being considered Vectors of Movement. You focused on the wrong aspect, it being a vector of movement, instead of the actual one, the size of said dimension. The present system follows this differing idea, which requires the dimensions to be proven not only as axes of movement but also possessing either infinite or non-insignificant size. And as far as I have seen, Ergenverse fits this as their dimensions are both a vector of movement and of a sufficient size.

And I very much apologize for getting so hot headed Uld, I really dislike when I get responses like the "Sure, Buddy" that feels so incredibly dismissive or accused of spite out of nowhere.
 
Not what I was even remotely talking about. Length, Width and Breadth are vectors of movement. Ultima's disapproval comes from WoD's dimensions possibly being vectors of movement. Ultima approved ISSTH anyway. This a double standard.

Oh, so that's where the supposed double standard is. You've been missing my point by a pretty wide margin again, it seems.

If WoD just mentioned infinite spatial dimensions in a literal sense, then I'd indeed be fine with High 1-B unless there was some counter-evidence showing otherwise. My problem is that your argument hinges on the notion that Dimensions in WoD are literal places and higher planes of reality, not just axis of movement, which would potentially be able to make the statements of "infinite realms and dimensions surrounding the earth" High 1-B, and support them being a literal hierarchy of ontologically superior layers that would reach this tier by extension.

The counterpoint here is that if the dimensions turn out to be just vectors and directions, then this argument falls apart entirely and doesn't really connect properly, as said "dimensions" can then be just other realms of existence with no superiority among them, thus they wouldn't have nowhere near the context required for High 1-B. I wasn't arguing against it because the dimensions being directions would make the tier invalid, which they wouldn't.

I am still gonna address the other points, btw. Just felt like clearing this misunderstanding was important to do first.
 
>Oh, so that's where the supposed double standard is. You've been missing my point by a pretty wide margin again, it seems.

It's more than just this, however, it is the best example as it is:

  • Recent
  • You approved it
  • And despite the gripe you havbe with WoD being possibly vectors of movement you still agreed with it.
>If WoD just mentioned infinite spatial dimensions in a literal sense, then I'd indeed be fine with High 1-B unless there was some counter-evidence showing otherwise.

See the thread above.

>My problem is that your argument hinges on the notion that Dimensions in WoD are literal places

No it doesn't, I appealed to Layers because that's what you said you "would buy".

>The counterpoint here is that if the dimensions turn out to be just vectors and directions, then this argument falls apart entirely and doesn't really connect properly, as said "dimensions" can then be just other realms of existence with no superiority among them

Deadass, in the thread where you supporteded ISSTH, the statement where you supported Infinite Dimension just has those dimensions just be vectors of movement, yet you still supported it.

>thus they wouldn't have nowhere near the context required for High 1-B.

Tell that to Ergenverse then, to which you supported.

>I wasn't arguing against it because the dimensions being directions would make the tier invalid, which they wouldn't.

"The counterpoint here is that if the dimensions turn out to be just vectors and directions, then this argument falls apart entirely and doesn't really connect properly, as said "dimensions" can then be just other realms of existence with no superiority among them"
 
This is just being dishonest to what 99.999999% of Fiction actually uses higher dimension for. What actual writer knows anything about vectors of movement and ordinal position. You're adding in skeptism for its own sake.

It is indeed skepticism, because nothing of what you've shown convinced me so far. What other works of fiction consider higher dimensions to be is 100% irrelevant when the text itself does not fit with your claims; I am just defaulting to the wiki's standards on the matter, which is considering spatial dimensions to be axes of movement unless otherwise shown or stated.

Need I bring up the wikis strongest 1-A literally calls their Dimensions "Angled space"

You keep missing my point by ridiculously large margins, it seems.

Let me explain it as clearly as possible: Higher dimensions being axes and directions does not necessarily prevent a verse from reaching Tier 1, in any way whatsoever, the problem is that this whole argument has been structured roughly like this:

  • It is mentioned that there is no limit to the number of realms and dimensions surrounding the Earth.
  • The dimensions in question clearly refer to places, and hence they cannot be referring to higher dimensions here, as those are just additional vectors and not locations.
  • However, you counter this by proposing that higher dimensions in WoD are not axes, but higher realms of existence. Hence, the first statement referring to "dimensions" as places would not prevent them from being higher dimensions, and would allow us to interpret it as indeed being High 1-B.
The issue here, is that the scan you claim to have proof that Dimensions = Higher Realms In WoD does not imply anything of the sort whatsoever, and thus cannot be used to support the first statement being High 1-B, as dimensions would then be assumed to be directions and not the parallel realms of existence described in Infinite Tapestry, creating a disconnect between the two things.

That is what I meant when I said that the argument falls apart if dimensions are assumed to be axes in this case.

And why do you think the most powerful mages in existence, beings who can create Universes with a spell would be scared of the 4th Dimension? No takers for the most obvious thing that every Sci-fi - Fantasy series does ever. And yes, it is a realm, they even state it's from beyond the Horizen, not where the Mages are at that time.

That's just unfounded speculation, again. There is nothing suggesting that the beings in this case literally come from a realm called "the Fourth Dimension" a la DC Comics, and the phrase "are capable of operating in the reputed fourth dimension" can again just as easily mean that they can move through an additional direction, which is the standard assumption we make with statements like this one.

No, it doesn't, no Sci-Fi writer uses it like that, this is just blatant dishonesty to add more hoops to jump through. Extra meaning to have more and Dimensional means to "Have more dimensions". Hell, the extra part can literally mean "Superior".

Again, what other works of fiction refer to by using the term is literally irrelevant, and as Kep said, "extradimensional" as a descriptor has never been accepted as evidence for higher-dimensionality in the history of this site, unless it has evidence backing up the notion that it refers to higher dimensionality. Sorry, but this wouldn't fly with any other verse and isn't gonna fly with WoD, either.

To which no other verse has ever required to define before. Sure, they have to define the superiority between dimensions, but transcendence has never needed to be defined. Although, you'll likely get some obsure verse from 2018 where the same thing happened, which would only prove my point.

The verses I use as examples being obscure or not is irrelevant in this case, as everything depends on the underlying context, and acting like certain words automatically skyrocket a verse to a certain high tier is just plain wrong. The wiki doesn't treat those words as special terms of their own, mate, it's just a question of basic grammar and interptetation.

Ascension seemingly has nothing to do with the Otherworlds, what matters is how they use and define transcendence which matters.

Again, "transcendence" is just a word and nothing else, it just happens to apply as a descriptors in cases where verses have hierarchies of layers that qualitatively transcend one another and similar cosmologies. On it's own, it means jackshit and can be used to refer to a myriad of things aside from Composite Hierarchies and qualitative layers.

Basically (As far as I am aware, at least), it's not that verses which use "transcendence" as an adjective when referring to characters automatically get certain tiers; it's just that in most cases, those verses simply abide to a cosmology where characters are explicitly ontologically above lesser characters, in which case the word "transcendence" fits. Hell, sometimes the word is never even used in the work itself, and people in this site just throw it around in order to talk about a character's feats. None of this makes it a trigger-word of any kind.

An incredibly obscure verse from 2018 proves my point and how these are only used selectively and never used consistantly.

I can get other examples where "transcendence" isn't taken as serious evidence for higher tiers, if you wish, that was just the one that came to my mind at the moment, since it bears some similarities to WoD's case.

So here you've proven the double standard because there it's 1-B to High 1-B, but here it's totally unusable because you've placed before me impossible hoops to jump through which no other verse has to jump through.

Yeah, it used to be High 1-B until DC got downgraded to 1-B (Based on a completely different scan) because the scans were too vague and visibly didn't refer to higher dimensions. If that kind of wording isn't usable to qualify DC to High 1-B, then I don't see how WoD can be upgraded based on an identical quote.

Then why throughout this entire thread you've been dismissing spatial dimensions for vectors of movement when "I will seal the Heavens" DEADASS is just that, they don't even state they're superior. This is a blatant doublestandard because you didn't even read their scans before giving you approval meanwhile, WoD has the most BS hoops to drump through.

Again, see above. My problem doesn't lie with the notion of dimensions being axes of movement, just with the way that the argument for High 1-B is structured.

[stuff about stacking infinities Ôëá higher dimension]

Stacking infinities in the sense of, say, a character destroys an infinite collection of infinite multiverses, which wouldn't qualify for Low 1-C and would just be a higher degree of 2-A instead, same with statements of a character being infinitely stronger than a 2-A entity.

On the other hand, higher spaces that trivialize lower ones by existing on a higher ontological scale than lower ones and things of the sort can indeed qualify for Low 1-C and above.
 
>What other works of fiction consider higher dimensions to be is 100% irrelevant when the text itself does not fit with your claims

It matters a lot based on what WoD is, that being a collection of fictions and attributes from those fictions ranging from Lovecraft to the Bible, to separate this would be dishonest as it would remove context, which you stated yourself is important.

>I am just defaulting to the wiki's standards on the matter

Not really, but I'll go into that further.

>The dimensions in question clearly refer to places, and hence they cannot be referring to higher dimensions here, as those are just additional vectors and not locations

Not really, as outlined above. You entire debunk for this is Tautology, which isn't a debunk what so ever.

>However, you counter this by proposing that higher dimensions in WoD are not axes, but higher realms of existence.

"No it doesn't, I appealed to Layers because that's what you said you "would buy"." You seemed to miss this.

>The issue here, is that the scan you claim to have proof that Dimensions = Higher Realms In WoD does not imply anything of the sort whatsoever

Extradimensional hierarchy and Dimensions JUST so happen to be used when talking about the same thing, but obviously they must be talking about realms, because saying "There's no limit to the number of realms and realms" makes total sense, extradimensional literally meaning "To have more dimensions" doesn't mean anything when talking about DIMENSIONS.

> as dimensions would then be assumed to be directions and not the parallel realms of existence described in Infinite Tapestry, creating a disconnect between the two things.

Dead ass, this book literally calls Dimensions as spatial dimensions multipletimes.

They even STATE the Shard Realms possess Extra dimensions, and as you said prior:

""Extra dimensions" is a term that's normally used to refer to additional axes belonging to some space in a scientific context, yeah"

Which again FURTHER proves that the dimensions they're talking about are Spatial Dimensions, as the Dimensions surrounding earth relates to the Shard realms, here it proves "dimensions" is meaning "Extra dimensions", meaning "Spatial dimensions".

It is IMPOSSIBLE for the Shard Realms to contain more than the 9(+Large Moon realms) main Planet realms, as the Book outlines multiple times, hell, the scan I just gave states there are only 9 Shard realms, negating the dimensions part having anything to do with Realms.

Meaning, there are Infinite Spatial Dimensions in the Shard Realm which shadows the physical realm.

>That's just unfounded speculation, again.

No, it's not "the order propose that these creatures exist beyond the Horizon, are capable operating in the reputed fourth dimension", the scan states they come from beyond the Horizon.

And, yes, they do come from the Fourth dimension.

And when it comes to "Extradimensional", it objectively means Higher dimensional.

>Again, what other works of fiction refer to by using the term is literally irrelevant, and as Kep said, "extradimensional" as a descriptor has never been accepted as evidence for higher-dimensionality in the history of this site, unless it has evidence backing up the notion that it refers to higher dimensionality.

Seems I have given evidence it refers to Higher Dimensionality.

>The verses I use as examples being obscure or not is irrelevant in this case

It relevent on the basis that popular verses are not held to this absurd scrutiny, not nececcarily yourself, but by the people performing the CRTs.

Like, can you say honestly, all the people who approved of the CRT never noticed how it states the Dimensions are vectors of movement and that they aren't even stated to be transcendent or even greater accidently didn't see that?

>Again, "transcendence" is just a word and nothing else

In the context in which "transcendence" was used, it's always in reference to achieving a higher level of existence. And by this logic "Infinite Spatial Dimensions" 'Is just words and nothing else' etc. etc. etc.

>Yeah, it used to be High 1-B until DC got downgraded to 1-B because the scans were too vague and visibly didn't refer to higher dimensions. If that kind of wording isn't usable to qualify DC to High 1-B, then I don't see how WoD can be upgraded based on an identical quote.

You completely missed what I said, I recommend re-reading what I said.

>On the other hand, higher spaces that trivialize lower ones by existing on a higher ontological scale than lower ones and things of the sort can indeed qualify for Low 1-C and above.

That's not neccecarly the same as the previous being infinitely small to the latter, it's no different then the Chinese Mytho-verse containing an infinite Galaxy, but then having multiple other galaxies, and the Universe being infinite on top of that.

Replace a few words from what you said about the H.P Lovecraft dimensions with the above infinities about the Chinese mytho-verse and you get virtually the same thing.
 
My God, this back and forth is just sad....

Firmly with Ultima. The Cthulhu Mythos using 'angled space' a term for higher dimensional spaces doesn't disprove the myriad of statements that put lower dimensions as infinitesimal slices of a higher one and onwards and onwards ad infinitum. It's just a term at the end of the day used by Lovecraft to refer to higher dimensional space-time.

Chinese Mythology isn't remotely the same as the Mythos cosmologically. The former just describes infinite High 3-A/Low 2-C spaces being bound by an even larger infinite space while the latter explicitely decribes higher dimensions in a way that no amount of stacking countable infinities will increase your dimensionality in any way.

So again, its just up to context and interpretation, which in this case does't convince me that WoD dimesions are higher mathematical infinities.
 
>Firmly with Ultima. The Cthulhu Mythos using 'angled space' a term for higher dimensional spaces doesn't disprove the myriad of statements that put lower dimensions as infinitesimal slices of a higher one and onwards and onwards ad infinitum.

I could literally rephrase this to make any Multiverse High 1-B. "Put Universes as infinitesimal slices of the Higher Multiverse and onwards and onwards ad infinitum"

>Chinese Mythology isn't remotely the same as the Mythos cosmologically.

I didn't even say they were the same cosmologically. I didn't even compare Cthulhu to the Chinese Mytho-verse, I used the Chinese Mytho-verse as an example on why his statement still didn't work.

>The former just describes infinite High 3-A/Low 2-C spaces being bound by an even larger infinite space while the latter explicitely decribes higher dimensions in a way that no amount of stacking countable infinities will increase your dimensionality in any way.

"No amount of infinite galaxies will fill the Chinese Universe in any way".

>So again, its just up to context and interpretation, which in this case does't convince me that WoD dimesions are higher mathematical infinities.

Joy.
 
Udlmaster said:
I could literally rephrase this to make any Multiverse High 1-B. "Put Universes as infinitesimal slices of the Higher Multiverse and onwards and onwards ad infinitum"

I didn't even say they were the same cosmologically. I didn't even compare Cthulhu to the Chinese Mytho-verse, I used the Chinese Mytho-verse as an example on why his statement still didn't work.

"No amount of infinite galaxies will fill the Chinese Universe in any way".
Click to expand...
1. Well, yeah you could and those verses would be High 1-B. I'd have no problems against any of it if it were that straight-forward. The wiki doesn't have a set limit for how many verses can be Tier 1, it's just that statements that blunt are hard to come by and even when that happens, they're too vague to be used or refer to something else entirely.

2. Maybe I missed something but OK, I suppose that's my mistake.

3. That's....just Low 2-C to Low 1-C then. But nevermind, not important.
 
Planck69 said:
1. Well, yeah you could and those verses would be High 1-B. I'd have no problems against any of it if it were that straight-forward. The wiki doesn't have a set limit for how many verses can be Tier 1, it's just that statements that blunt are hard to come by and even when that happens, they're too vague to be used or refer to something else entirely.

2. Maybe I missed something but OK, I suppose that's my mistake.

3. That's....just Low 2-C to Low 1-C then. But nevermind, not important.
Click to expand...
1. Then we could likely find a compromise then, but that's for later.

2. It's all good my dude.

3. But can you see how rewording gives you funky results when honestly, it should really be more clean cut then that.
 
3. Maybe but verses like Cthulhu Mythos, DC Comics and Umineko have multiple statements, from multiple canon authors no less, that higher dimensions are their own mathematical infinities or at least parts of an infinite hierarchy. Mentioning dimensionality is one thing but actually describing it in the context of higher or lower planes of reality is another scenario entirely.

If WoD mentions higher dimensions in the context of being qualitatively higher planes of existence consistently and explicitly then I can happily agree to Tier 1. But until then, I'm afraid I'l have to disagree or at least stay neutral.
 
Planck69 said:
If WoD mentions higher dimensions in the context of being qualitatively higher planes of existence consistently and explicitly then I can happily agree to Tier 1. But until then, I'm afraid I'l have to disagree or at least stay neutral.
Click to expand...
They do, in fact, it's much like DC how Mxy comes from the 5th dimension.

Zigg's come from the 4th dimension as a plane of existence hosting these higher dimensional beings.

The reason why this is important is because of this:

There's No limit[Literally a synonym for Infinite] to the number of dimensions in relation to the Shard Realms, which are merelyshadows of the real thing.

These "dimensions" don't refer to alternate dimensions but higher ones, first piece of evidence is when the same books returns to the topic about the Shard Realms, where it calls these dimensions a "Extradimensional hierarchy"

Now, in WoD, Extradimensional does mean Extra dimensional[and Extra-dimensional].

This is further compounded by the fact they do literally state the Shard Realms are Extra dimensional [Extra-Dimensional]

And to totally seal my argument from "the dimensions in the "no limit to the number of realms and dimensions" merely means alternate dimensions", the above quote uses the EXACT same sentence except adds that heavily implied word:

"No one can thoroughly document all the realms and extra dimensions beyond the First Horizon"

"No limit to the number of realms and [extra] dimensions surrounding a planet."

From this, one could actually get Low 1-A, as there's multiple Planets, meaning multiple infinites of Dimensions, but lets not make that argument for now.
 
Just a reminder, a hierarchy is nothing more than an arrangement of items that can be described as "above", "below" or "on the same level" for any number of known or unknown discrete reasons, and does not instantly insinuate any sort of ontological superiority from whatever is higher or lower. Maslow's "Pyramid of Necessities" is a hierarchy, yet none of the levels are something intrinsically superior to one another, is just that fulfilling the first transitions to the second and so on.

I already voiced my issues with that scan about no limits to dimensions and realms. Not only could it be simple tautology in the use of realm and dimension, which seems even more likely to me by the mention of "as the spiritual and astral landscape shows", "surrounding a planet" implicates all these are individual for each planet, just like how Venus and Mars have have their own spirit wilds. Being described as "casting a shadow" is no statement that automatically implies some existential superiority either and requires something further, just like Magano in Twin Star Exorcist is an alternate realm, a shadow cast off the impure and violent tendencies and emotions of humans in the planet.

Also, what even is the First Horizon?
 
>Just a reminder, a hierarchy is nothing more than an arrangement of items that can be described as "above", "below" or "on the same level" for any number of known or unknown discrete reasons

In relation to [Extra] Dimensions, it's obvious what that means.

>Maslow's "Pyramid of Necessities" is a hierarchy, yet none of the levels are something intrinsically superior to one another, is just that fulfilling the first transitions to the second and so on.

The Pyramid of Necessities also isn't a real, tangable thing, unlike dimensions, which are real.

>I already voiced my issues with that scan about no limits to dimensions and realms. Not only could it be simple tautology in the use of realm and dimension

I outlined above how there was another instance where they used the Exact same sentence on the exact same topic:

"No one can thoroughly document all the realms and extra dimensions beyond the First Horizon"

"No limit to the number of realms and [extra] dimensions surrounding a planet."

>"surrounding a planet" implicates all these are individual for each planet, just like how Venus and Mars have have their own spirit wilds.

Hey, I'm fine with each having their own Infinite Spatial Dimensions.

>Being described as "casting a shadow" is no statement that automatically implies some existential superiority either and requires something further

No, I didn't use the scan for superiority, I didn't even think og using it like that, but now you mention it, I will later on.

I used it to prove the Real Life Planets would also have Infinite Dimensions as the Planets which do have infinite dimensions are just their shadows.

>Also, what even is the First Horizon?

A Location in the Deep Umbrae, if you go to the WoD page I posted an offical cosmology map on there to help you out.

The Shadow Realms (Shadows of the Shard Realms) and the Shard Realms exist there.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Dinoanime7
Minor Revisions of the Gods from World of Darkness
2
Replies
78
Views
5K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Udlmaster
World of Darkness: Cosmology 1.5 TM/INC/LLC/CR
11 12 13
Replies
504
Views
46K
Antvasima
Antvasima
VeryGoofyToddler
Williamson: Dark Frontier Cosmology
2
Replies
40
Views
5K
Gasper
Gasper
OuterLine0
  • Locked
Nasuverse Tier 0 Update
Replies
11
Views
3K
Firestorm808
Firestorm808
VeryGoofyToddler
  • Locked
Vertigo(Neil Gaiman and Mike Carey) Revision
2 3
Replies
82
Views
7K
Deagonx
Deagonx
Back
Top