Frick this sense of Deja vu

[Udlmaster]

>Supernal part

But we cannot do that, so we go off what is established or stated or implied.

We cannot go with your option because it is contradicted in verse.

>There is no indication that this is the case, especially when you consider that the entire introduction of the paragraph is referring to the Realms as a collective

But it's not, only the first part of the paragraph is, the second part describes how they each contain a nigh-infinite amount of Platonic Truths.

>The fact that the Realms aren't actual places but platonic truths which together form a near-infinite conglomerate.

Wrong, because Mages can enter the Supernal realms, they use their Gnosis to filter its raw power into something they can perceive.

>"the Supernal Realms are not places as mortals think of them, but near-infinite collections of platonic truths"

That is literally what it says, so you agree it's talking about how each realm has nigh-infinite Platonic Truths.

>Again, provide some reliable evidence from the verse itself that Platonic Forms actually govern and transcend all forms of space and time

In the screenshot itself it literally states it governs the Fallen reality which is all of space and time. So of course they would govern all of space and time, they're even unbound by The laws of Space and Time.

>Again, that's just an ability which they gain the capability to use once they become more enlightened, and is not necessarily an indicative that they become transcendentally more powerful or anything of the sort.

Why? I just have you a logical way to measure the difference in power, and have previously shown that they do become more powerful.

It's not enlightenment because things like intellect do not come in on the matter, it's Magical power as I have shown above.

I have shown to you that they increase in magical power, I have shown you the gap between these, your argument doesn't hold anymore ground.

>Except that the text itself only states that the efficiency of the objects are perfected, and nowhere is it stated that they become infinitely stronger outside of unfounded assumptions of yours that contradict what the text itself says

No, my assumption doesn't contradict what the text says at all, I've shown to you multiple times now how it follows exactly what the text says, and again, you're conflating "it doesn't say it becomes stronger" with "therefore the output doesn't become stronger" which is simply invalid.

It states the output/efficiency is 100% and that it mimics its Platonic ideal, we do not need anything else on the matter, we don't need it to say "it becomes stronger" because the efficiency output does that for us, it doesn't have to prescribe to every single letter being correct and hold one's hand, one can come to logical assumptions without the text literally holding one's hand to the conclusion.

>If anything, if the objects truly became representations of every possible and impossible permutation of them, then their durability would also logically have to change alongside everything else,

Not really, that's a non-sequitur.

>Yeah, pretty much. If there's no infinite hierarchy for said concepts to scale to

But I am scaling it to an infinite hierarchy, Arête so that's what we should focus on, not if there's another one.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

We cannot go with your option because it is contradicted in verse.

By what, exactly? Again, the Supernal Realms being infinite in number is just an in-universe theory that the narrator specifically notes is debated among Mages, so we can't reliably use it, and my interpretation comes from a fairly straightfoward reading of the two initial verses of a paragraph describing the Realms in the first place.

Wrong, because Mages can enter the Supernal realms, they use their Gnosis to filter its raw power into something they can perceive.

That's literally nitpicking and is irrelevant for this discussion. What I meant is that the text is stating that the Supernal Realms are not actually places, but platonic truths which lesser beings perceive as places that they can comprehend.

That is literally what it says, so you agree it's talking about how each realm has nigh-infinite Platonic Truths.

It isn't. It says that "The Supernal Realms (in the plural, indicating it's referring to them as a collective) are not really places as mortals think of them, but (note the connector here) a near-infinite collection of platonic truths", not that each of them individually contains near-infinite platonic truths, as the phrasing of what I wrote implies.

Also, what book is this sca from? You posted the full pages that include it, but the surrounding context is still sorta sparse and I'd like to check it by myself.

In the screenshot itself it literally states it governs the Fallen reality which is all of space and time. So of course they would govern all of space and time, they're even unbound by The laws of Space and Time

Just being unbound by the concepts of space and time with no further elaboration isn't grounds for qualifying for 1-A anymore, as the system is based moreso on raw size than the properties of a certain entity now, so being "beyond dimensionality" and the likes depend on several more factors and aren't necessarily grounds for 1-A anymore without further context and explanations, either. You are gonna have to prove that space and time in the verse itself extend into High 1-B or Low 1-A scales, or demonstrably show that the Platonic Forms of Time and Space exist beyond all extensions of their particulars in-verse regardless of that.

As I said, I agree that Platonic Forms would definitely be 1-A if we took them at face value and at their highest interpretation, but that's under a philosophical / metaphysical context where fallacies like hasty generalizations don't necessarily apply, and these are not the lens through which we analyze stuff like that in an indexing context, so it should always be under a case-by-case basis here.

Why? I just have you a logical way to measure the difference in power, and have previously shown that they do become more powerful.

They do become more powerful, I agree to that, but a single ability showing that they can temporarily assume a Supernal Form to heal themselves is not necessarily an universal indicative that their power rose to another level of existence entirely, especially since it's just a hax ability as far as I see.

Although you did say that Mages can directly affect the Platonic Truths present in the Supernal at a certain level of Arete. Do you have the name of the book where this is listed / stated? That could make things a bit more clear to me.

It's not enlightenment because things like intellect do not come in on the matter, it's Magical power as I have shown above.

It's magical power and greater control over reality that comes from internal enlightenment, so that point is irrelevant to both of us, really.

No, my assumption doesn't contradict what the text says at all, I've shown to you multiple times now how it follows exactly what the text says, and again, you're conflating "it doesn't say it becomes stronger" with "therefore the output doesn't become stronger" which is simply invalid.

It states the output/efficiency is 100% and that it mimics its Platonic ideal, we do not need anything else on the matter, we don't need it to say "it becomes stronger" because the efficiency output does that for us, it doesn't have to prescribe to every single letter being correct and hold one's hand, one can come to logical assumptions without the text literally holding one's hand to the conclusion.

The efficiency of an object being perfected does not necessarily translate to the Attack Potency of it becoming infinitely greater, mainly given how your argument for that being the case apparently depends on the assumption that the object would start to represent all of their possible / impossible permutations and thus qualify for Tier 1 by virtue of including the ones which are higher-dimensional. Now my point is: Is there specifically evidence for that?

Not really, that's a non-sequitur.

It's really not, since a non-sequitur would imply that the conclusion of my argument isn't supported by its premise, which is not the case here. If a "Perfect" object will start to represent every single variation of them from all possible levels of existence, in a way that actually allows it to qualify for Tier 1, then this would logically scale to both their AP and their Durability. Going by that logic, my argument is as much a non-sequitur as yours.

Now you might say that only their efficiency is perfected, and not necessarily their physicality as the text suggests, but then, I'd like to ask how exactly is efficiency related to power? and if the objects are physically unchanged and are just as durable as their original states, then how can you say they are infinitely superior to them? Since the notion that they are sorta conflicts with the former, and again depends on the assumption that they actuall reflect -all- possible variations of them, which is itself iffy given our stricter standards on Platonic Forms, as you can see above.

But I am scaling it to an infinite hierarchy, Arête so that's what we should focus on, not if there's another one.

Yeah, but I am still not convinced that Arête qualifies for an actual hierarchy where each step on it is infinitely above a preceeding step. The information for that is just far too sparse and requires mental gymnastics that wouldn't fly in any other verse, at least as far as I am aware.

So, if you can find more explicit High 1-B stuff which the verse can scale to, that'd help your case a lot.

 

[Udlmaster]

>By what, exactly?

Because the inverse theories directly go against your version of what's going on, while my version both go together and neither contradicts.

And I already debunked the "can't be used" due to it being either true or false and how that works.

Your interpretation is directly contradicted and therefore cannot be used.

>That's literally nitpicking and is irrelevant for this discussion.

No, it's not, because you're trying to say that the Realms are just concepts and not actually Planes, which further contradicts your interpretation of the Supernal realms.

>platonic truths which lesser beings perceive as places that they can comprehend.

Wrong again, no one can perceive the realms, they have to literally filter the realms so they can even move.

>It isn't.

I've already gone over above how your interpretation is directly contradicted and cannot be used.

>demonstrably show that the Platonic Forms of Time and Space exist beyond all extensions of their particulars in-verse regardless of that.

Does Time and space exist within WoD? Yes. Therefore there is a Platonic Truth giving meaning to its Platonic concept of Time and space.

I've just demonstrably proven that The Platonic concepts of Time and Space exist.


>Although you did say that Mages can directly affect the Platonic Truths present in the Supernal at a certain level of Arete. Do you have the name of the book where this is listed / stated? That could make things a bit more clear to me.

[Here] the Mage can attack using Supernal fire.

This one is split across [two] [pages] where they can throw the Platonic truth into the Abyss turning it into a Lie and making the spells relating to it non-existent.

>The efficiency of an object being perfected does not necessarily translate to the Attack Potency of it becoming infinitely greater

The opposite isn't true either, and when it comes to a killing machine, it definitely would.

>If a "Perfect" object will start to represent every single variation of them from all possible levels of existence, in a way that actually allows it to qualify for Tier 1, then this would logically scale to both their AP and their Durability.

Actually, it wouldn't, because if we imagine the spell affecting a stat like a star chart, where let's say efficiency apples to 3 points in the star, Efficiency, output and so on it would only apply to those 3 points, not durability and longevity (this is just an example) as the spell doesn't apply to those.

The reason why it's a non-sequitur is because output when it is at 100% doesn't equate to durability in this case, most of all when the spell only applies to one aspect and not all of them, the star chart analogy again.

>Now you might say that only their efficiency is perfected, and not necessarily their physicality as the text suggests, but then, I'd like to ask how exactly is efficiency related to power?

Because for example, 100% efficiency Platonic Nuclear reactor would directly tie to power.

Same with a Gun, 100% efficient Platonic Gun would directly tie to AP and Power.

>So, if you can find more explicit High 1-B stuff which the verse can scale to, that'd help your case a lot.

I'll have a look out for another one.

There is also the Spirits, where there are an infinite amount of them each being a philosophy, concept, idea, mathematical theory, psychological posturing or religion etc.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that Ultima makes sense above. We should preferably revise the statistics according to his instructions.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Honestly haven't been following these bibles much so I'll give them a read.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

It's really Ultima saying "Dot scaling" is headcanon but with the statements it is definitely a possibility. Also Ultima is saying that a lot of this lore Udl is bringing up is just theory and conjecture however Udl did say that the Abyss contains all lies so even if it were unture it would exist within the Abyss which hasn't been directly contested moreso Ultima understood that as a good argument. Ultima is also kinda restricting Udl on making any points with the lore because of it being a lot of theory and conjecture with the Mages and so. Then we have more arguments on Platonic stuff in WoD (again). Udl's "Dot scaling" hinges on the second Dot being 1-A in comparison to the first Dot but this relies on Platonism which Ultima is contesting with Udl at the moment. My view is that Platonism is 1-A within WoD. Also the Supernal Realms being a hierarchy is definitely a contestable subject too.

Honestly how I see it is basically a lot of metaphysics and cosmological stuff thrown at the reader and the reader decides how to interpret it. So there needs to a common interpretation between Udl and Ultima I think because both interpretation are valid in my view they just need common ground, I need to read more WoD to full understand it anyhow. I can see Udl making more arguments with Taoism to push for higher tiers because it's just there and not being used at all.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Udlmaster]

Shhhh, Emperor, I don't want to use my secret weapon yet.

 

[Lapsad]

Wait for a long time and i suppose to this thread probably not accept

 

[Udlmaster]

Wait for a long time and i suppose to this thread probably not accept

????

 

[Lapsad]

Bump , i did't see anyone come to debatetable this thread at leat 1 week

 

[Ultima_Reality]

**** I forgot this existed.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that Ultima makes sense above. We should preferably revise the statistics according to his instructions.

This seems to be what I concluded where we left off.

 

[Lapsad]

This thread be end and TOG still be solid 1-A ?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we probably need to apply what Ultima decided.

 

[Udlmaster]

Well, we probably need to apply what Ultima decided.

Ultima hasn't to my knowledge made up his Mind yet, which is why we're debating it.

And, as Emperor said above, I've not used all my major arguments yet, such as the One, Two and Three.

And it would be rather absurd to follow the design of someone who has no idea about the verse.

It's like asking an metallurgist to then build a house.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.