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Garchomp VS Mihawk (2/8/0)

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I'm still voting Mihawk tbh, mostly because I doubt Garchomp would play strategically and such, as it is blided by omicidal rage and goes around slashing everything, and Mihawk still has useful stuff, with superior skill on top of it.
 
KlinkyGrape said:
What, why? What's the source of that because never in the games have Pokemon been able to access all their abilities in a battle (and I don't remember the anime having that either).

This would especially apply for the case of evolutions because I there are specific abilities in evolution lines that pokemon can only access in their pre-evolutions and I would assume this would be the case for Mega's as well since from what I know of Pokemon they only have access to their mega ability and not their standard ones.
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I'm gonna need proof of this before I even think about changing my vote.
 
Not to mention his range is currently wanked to be frank. Nothing supports him even having that level of range, not sure why it was added to begin with.
 
SamanPatou said:
Also, Mega Garchomp is constantly blided by rage and in a sort of berserk mode due to the effects of the mega evolution, and likely wouldn't go for the most strategic options (the Pokédex also hints that it generally goes for slashing attacks while transformed).
Click to expand...
Based off this info I'll be making the judgement on the Match-up:
AP/Durability:
Garchomp:
KlinkyGrape said:
Mega Garchomp > 1,580.62 megatons = 2x Base Marowak > 790.31 megatons
Click to expand...
Mihawk:
Mihawk > Shanks ≥ Kaido >>> Gear Fourth Luffy = 3x Base Luffy > 377 Megatons, so Mihawk >>>>>> 1.131 Gigatons, can amp further with Haki.
Click to expand...
Garchomp definitely has the AP advantage but I don't believe it's that significant since Mihawk scales a lot higher from 1.131 Gigatons than Garchomp does 1.58 Gigatons and the difference between those two numbers is only a 1.39 times difference. Mihawk can also enhance his AP & Durability with Armament Haki thus decreasing the gap further.
Speed:
KingTempest said:
Iirc Mihawk has the speed advantage. Mega Garchomp < .53c while Mihawk is > .57c.
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It seems the battle will start off with Mihawk having the speed advantage, although it has been mentioned that Garchomp has methods of lowering it, although again It's been mentioned that Garchomp in his mega form probably won't be thinking that strategically so It's unlikely Garchomp would use those options.

Considering Garchomp will likely go for close range due to being in a berserk mode & since the majority of his arsenal are close range tackles/slash attacks then I can see Mihawk winning due to having superior range at close range, Precognition to avoid attacks, Ryuo barriers and the slight speed advantage. Although it would be a hard fight considering Garchomp's passive abilities and superior AP & Durability.
 
Eminiteable said:
Based off this info I'll be making the judgement on the Match-up:
AP/Durability:
Garchomp:

Mihawk:

Garchomp definitely has the AP advantage but I don't believe it's that significant since Mihawk scales a lot higher from 1.131 Gigatons than Garchomp does 1.58 Gigatons and the difference between those two numbers is only a 1.39 times difference. Mihawk can also enhance his AP & Durability with Armament Haki thus decreasing the gap further.
Speed:

It seems the battle will start off with Mihawk having the speed advantage, although it has been mentioned that Garchomp has methods of lowering it, although again It's been mentioned that Garchomp in his mega form probably won't be thinking that strategically so It's unlikely Garchomp would use those options.

Considering Garchomp will likely go for close range due to being in a berserk mode & since the majority of his arsenal are close range tackles/slash attacks then I can see Mihawk winning due to having superior range at close range, Precognition to avoid attacks, Ryuo barriers and the slight speed advantage. Although it would be a hard fight considering Garchomp's passive abilities and superior AP & Durability.
Click to expand...
Half the methods Garchomp has to counter mihawk are passives that it doesnt need to actively think about to use
 
With passives you mean the abilities or the secondary effects of some moves? Because the only really useful passive ability I see is Tenacity (Sand Veil and Force require it to cast a sandstorm first, which I'm not sure it would do). Stealth requires a specific terrain, but it's not mentioned which, maybe it changes depending on the Garchomp?
 
KlinkyGrape said:
What, why? What's the source of that because never in the games have Pokemon been able to access all their abilities in a battle (and I don't remember the anime having that either).

This would especially apply for the case of evolutions because I there are specific abilities in evolution lines that pokemon can only access in their pre-evolutions and I would assume this would be the case for Mega's as well since from what I know of Pokemon they only have access to their mega ability and not their standard ones.
Click to expand...
Gonna have to agree with this until further evidence is provided, specifically the evolution thing since this is mega Garchomp and not regular Garchomp so it shouldn't have access to abilities of it's pre-evolved self without proof.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
The problem is that even with skill that wont help mihawk when he gets passively stunned or outright avoided as a result
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Even if you assume Garchomp can use all of it's abilities and even ones from lower evolution's they don't make much of a difference:
  • Sand Veil & Sand Force: Requires Garchomp to use sandstorm which in mega form he seemingly will not do in character.
  • Stealth: "On Garchomp's favorite terrain, it becomes more likely to dodge moves." Do we know what Garchomp's favoured terrain is and do we have reason to believe it's Marineford?
  • Rough Skin & Tenacity: Both require "Contact" which is physical contact, however this is based on Pokemon where all of them attack with their bodies or extensions of their bodies; Mihawk isn't a pokemon and makes contact with his sword. And even if we assumed that Mihawk's sword is considered physical contact it still wouldn't matter since Mihawk isn't an idiot and would realize what is happening and resort to air slash spam rather than close combat.
  • Parry: Just by design I assumed he could already do this, but, this isn't really an advantage since Mihawk has dealt with countless swordsman who do the same thing.
 
72088262.jpg
 
Eminiteable said:
Even if you assume Garchomp can use all of it's abilities and even ones from lower evolution's they don't make much of a difference:
  • Sand Veil & Sand Force: Requires Garchomp to use sandstorm which in mega form he seemingly will not do in character.
  • Stealth: "On Garchomp's favorite terrain, it becomes more likely to dodge moves." Do we know what Garchomp's favoured terrain is and do we have reason to believe it's Marineford?
  • Rough Skin & Tenacity: Both require "Contact" which is physical contact, however this is based on Pokemon where all of them attack with their bodies or extensions of their bodies; Mihawk isn't a pokemon and makes contact with his sword. And even if we assumed that Mihawk's sword is considered physical contact it still wouldn't matter since Mihawk isn't an idiot and would realize what is happening and resort to air slash spam rather than close combat.
  • Parry: Just by design I assumed he could already do this, but, this isn't really an advantage since Mihawk has dealt with countless swordsman who do the same thing.
Click to expand...
Good argument dude.
 
What is up witht he Mihawk wank lately? So many threads I kind of love it

IIRC Mihawk was given a weakness of not being able to cut what he's not aiming at when he got his upgrade. Fire Blast, Rock slide, Dragon's Rage, etc all mess him up pretty bad.

Also Garchomp has a range advantage he can capitalize in the early going since Mihawk has to start outside of range.

Mihawk does have observation haki though.

Mihawk > Shanks ≥ Kaido
Click to expand...
False. Shanks does not scale above Kaido so Mihawk does not either.

I'm leaning towards Garchomp due to his range and tons of abilities. Mihawk is pretty 1-dimensional right now. That should be able to counter the Observation haki and minimal speed advantage.

EDIT Yea I know its grace, still fair game till that ends.
 
Dr.Fix said:
IIRC Mihawk was given a weakness of not being able to cut what he's not aiming at when he got his upgrade. Fire Blast, Rock slide, Dragon's Rage, etc all mess him up pretty bad.

Also Garchomp has a range advantage he can capitalize in the early going since Mihawk has to start outside of range.

I'm leaning towards Garchomp due to his range and tons of abilities. Mihawk is pretty 1-dimensional right now. That should be able to counter the Observation haki and minimal speed advantage.
Click to expand...
Check up above in the thread, for a wild Mega Garchomp it's not really in character for it to stay back at range and rely on a strategy like that.
 
Vulnerable to Fairy and Dragon type moves, especially vulnerable to Ice type moves

I don't see that listed under its weaknesses. Where is that NO RANGE ATTACKS coming from?

EDIT: Never mind I tracked down the pokedex. It isn't listed on his profile though and if it has mega evolved it needs to be trained doesn't it, not wild.
 
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Dr.Fix said:
EDIT: Never mind I tracked down the pokedex. It isn't listed on his profile though and if it has mega evolved it needs to be trained doesn't it, not wild.
Click to expand...
"All of our Pokémon species profiles assume the Pokémon is wild, Level 100 with perfect EVs and IVs, and know every possible move and skill without being trained."
 
SamanPatou said:
With passives you mean the abilities or the secondary effects of some moves? Because the only really useful passive ability I see is Tenacity (Sand Veil and Force require it to cast a sandstorm first, which I'm not sure it would do). Stealth requires a specific terrain, but it's not mentioned which, maybe it changes depending on the Garchomp?
Click to expand...
Passives as in IQ skills
 
Eminiteable said:
Even if you assume Garchomp can use all of it's abilities and even ones from lower evolution's they don't make much of a difference:
  • Stealth: "On Garchomp's favorite terrain, it becomes more likely to dodge moves." Do we know what Garchomp's favoured terrain is and do we have reason to believe it's Marineford?
Click to expand...
Desert

And this isnt taking Garchomp's IQ skills or stat reduction moves into account
 
Right, IQ skills are a thing, though technically they aren't considered canon currently, as MD as a whole isn't considered as such, but the idea of Pokémon canon on the wiki is everchanging and always under debate (and the profiles tend to not get updated).

(And once one of the current revisions is finished, Pokémon will most likely lose their 7-A/High 7-A tier and become 7-B).
 
Also looking through Garchomp's abilities (Because im cleaning up the profile because it looks awful) Garchomp would also get Instinctive Reaction via the Instinct ability
 
Eminiteable said:
"All of our Pokémon species profiles assume the Pokémon is wild, Level 100 with perfect EVs and IVs, and know every possible move and skill without being trained."
Click to expand...
Could you please link the citation next time?

Garchamp's profile for Mega still has its own key and that key specifically includes his large range. It does not specify the Pokedex entry of being feral and losing many abilities. If we go by that Pokedex I agree Mihawk has a chance to win, but I think we should refer by the VSBattle profiles as they are.
 
Dr.Fix said:
Could you please link the citation next time?
Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

Pokémon

For detailed information about this series, visit Bulbapedia or the Pokémon Wiki. Pokémon is a video game franchise owned by Nintendo and developed by Game Freak that made its first release on the Game Boy and has turned into one of the most successful video-game media franchises ever made by...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Dr.Fix said:
Could you please link the citation next time?

Garchamp's profile for Mega still has its own key and that key specifically includes his large range. It does not specify the Pokedex entry of being feral and losing many abilities. If we go by that Pokedex I agree Mihawk has a chance to win, but I think we should refer by the VSBattle profiles as they are.
Click to expand...
It's literally on the verse's page here

The Pokedex entries are treated as canon from what I can gather of this verse so it's completely fine to use even if the page is outdated.
 
The fact that the quote isn't on the profile doesn't make it invalid, as the behavior of a character in combat isn't always listed on the profiles (almost never, actually) but still has to be taken in consideration for the debate.

Neither Mihawk has a paragraph talking about his fighting style, just the moves, but that doesn't prevent us for picturing what he would do and use what the usually does as an argument.
 
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SamanPatou said:
The fact that the quote isn't on the profile doesn't make it invalid, as the behavior of a character in combat isn't always listed on the profiles (almost never, actually) but still has to be taken in consideration for the debate.
Click to expand...
If staff say a pokedex entry>the VSBattle profile then I guess I vote for Mihawk due to range and speed advantage. I suggest the profile is updated to reflect Mega Garchomp's short comings.
 
I mean, I not saiying that the former is superior to the latter, the two things can co-exist, as they don't contradict each other.
In fact, someone could argue that Mihawk likes to engage in a fistfight just because the profile doesn't state that he prefers using a sword to fight.

And I agree that Garchomp's profile may use an update (as all Pokémon profiles), but those hints about its demeanor are usable.
Most of the profiles don't describe how a character fights, as it's often difficult to explain and/or superfluous, and not even always the same.
For vs matches it's allowed to use the general demeanor of a character as an argument, either by using common knowledge or bringing evidences.

Something not acceptable would be saying that Garchomp can remove Mihawk from existence with a thought, or that its ap is planet level, stuff like that must be on profiles in order to be used.
 
Okay so with the updates Garchomp got a lot more range options, so now Garchomp's ranged attacks are Dragon Breath, Bulldoze, Dragon Rage, Mud Shot, Twister, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Stone Edge, Draco Meteor, and Earthquake. However it is correct that Mega Garchomp is in a constant berserk rage (Though im not sure where the idea that it loses the majority of its powers comes from) and as a result is more likely to use melee attacks over ranged attacks, so lets take a look at what Garchomp would have if we remove all ranged attacks and, just for good measure, stat moves.

Garchomp has Brightpowder, making it harder for Mihawk to accurately hit it even with AoE attacks, and a Sitrus Berry which can heal it, as well as a Dragon Fang that passively amps the power of its Dragon-type moves. Coupling Brightpowder, Rough Skin (Damages the opponent when they hit you), Instinct (Instinctive reaction), Parry (Attack reflection), Tenacity (Passive fear manip), Counter Basher (Attack Reflection), Clutch Performer (Passive speed amp), and Intimidator (Passive fear manip) means that in melee combat it will be extremely difficult for Mihawk to land a proper blow on Garchomp, even if he does it has a good chance of being reflected or nullified, if he manages to land several attacks he will be getting hurt each time, and Garchomp is able to both heal itself if it gets damaged enough and if it does get damaged enough it will just get faster. These are just the passives Mihawk will have to get around to even damage Garchomp. As for offensive passives, Garchomp has Concentrator (Passive accuracy amp), Practice Swinger (+50% Damage boost if its attack misses), Aggressor (Passive +50% AP amp), and Extra Striker (A single attack has a chance of being treated as two).

Again, these are just the passives.

For the actives, as i said before, we'll only take into account melee-based attacks. That leaves us with Tackle, Bulldoze, Bite, Slash, Dragon Claw, Dig, Take Down, Dragon Rush, Dual Chop, Crunch, Fire Fang, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Iron Head, Metal Claw, Outrage, Thrash, Iron Tail, Rock Climb, Dragon Tail, Brick Break, and Giga Impact.

So basically this limits Garchomp to biting, tackling, clawing, and tail-slamming the opponent. Of these moves:
  • Seven come with the potential of a highly detrimental status effect (Flinch [Bite, Dragon Tail, Iron Head], Burn [Fire Fang], Paralysis [Body Slam], Confusion [Rock Climb], barrier null [Brick Break]),
  • Three can reduce the opponent's stats (Speed [Bulldoze], Dura [Crunch, Iron Tail])
  • One is a passive AP amp [Metal Claw]
  • Four do nothing but damage (Tackle, Slash, Dig, Dual chop)
  • And five deal a significant amount of damage but are technically detrimental to garchomp (Take Down, Double Edge, Outrage, Thrash, Giga Impact),
  • And of those 22, seven are passively damage boosted due to the STAB system (Dragon Claw, Bulldoze, Dig, Dragon Rush, Dual Chop, Outrage, and Dragon Tail)
This means that 77% of Garchomp's movepool in this fight has the potential to inflict an array of crippling effects on Mihawk when they land. Flinch would leave Mihawk open to attack without bing able to defend himself, Burn perpetually sets him on fire and cuts his AP in half, Paralysis paralyzes him and cuts his speed in half, Confusion would cripple his ability to fight and can make him attack himself, and Brick Break can null Haki.

Taking the passive AP amps from its abilities, items, and moves means that Garchomp's AP is:

790.31 x 2 [Marrowak] 1580.62 megatons + 790.31 [Aggressor] = 2370.93 megatons + 474.186 [Dragon Fang 20% boost] = 2845.116 megatons x 1.5 [STAB] = 4267.674 megatons, 6401.511 megatons with Practice Swinger, potentially higher if Metal Claw is used enough

All Mihawk really has is a skill advantage and a very, very slight speed advantage that gets countred by IR and the plethora of passives Garchomp has. Other than that he really doesnt have that much going for him, Garchomp outclasses him in AP, Durability, and Versatility, has ways of healing itself and getting past his Haki, has numerous passive means of outright canceling Mihawk's attacks, and even with its massively cut down movepool for its Mega Form 8/10 of its attacks can cause detrimental side effects that would ccripple Mihawk if he was affected by just one of them.

Garchomp should take this handily.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Ive been in enough versus threads in my years on this site to know that is not true
Click to expand...
I checked the versus thread page and it makes no mention of grace resetting hours after its concluded.

But going with what you've changed to profile and what you just posted now it's a stomp; you've now got a 6-C character with way more haxes vs a baseline High 7-A with barely any hax and the speed difference is seemingly negated.
 
Pokémon profiles are still a mess as a whole and constantly outdated, and I already can foresee the 100th crt about canon, to which are related tiers, powers and stuff like IQ skills and Conquest abilities, all of which may or may not get nuked.
And once the "upgrading Pokémon statistics" crt ends, all third stages will go down to 7-B, this match wouldn't have lasted longer on profiles anyway.


Also, I never said Garchomp loses its powers in mega, just that the possibility of him using the most useful tools and strategic options is very unlikely, given its berserk mode that makes it wanting to slash everything.
 
SamanPatou said:
Also, I never said Garchomp loses its powers in mega, just that the possibility of him using the most useful tools and strategic options is very unlikely, given its berserk mode that makes it wanting to slash everything.
Click to expand...
Ah okay, thats kinda what i figured so i took it into account anyways, even without the strategic stuff Garchomp still has overwhelming firepower and a ton of status effects
 
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