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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Confluctor
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I think no one is gonna read all of it. Its not structured well enough
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Seems to contain a dangerous number of debunked arguments. I can't comment on the composite cosmology stuff, and whether or not hypertime works that way, but let's see...
Debunked here.
Evidence that these planes transcend each other? They could exist in parallel, for all we know.
Seems like the classic game I've seen many times in power scaling where people take one slightly namedropped concept and relate it to other ideas until they come across some reasoning for 1-A scaling. This happens especially often with Many-Worlds, which tends to involve things like uncountable infinity, hilbert space, and tegmarks. Don't see the evidence that DC follows all these ideas.
See what I'm talking about? He claims there's an infinite recursion of branching timelines that would lead to infinity^infinity^infinity... ad infinitum scope, but there's no evidence of this degree of recursion.
Also, that Rama Kushna statement for infinite dimensions is invalid.
1. The writer for that storyline was asked a leading question to admit that this scan was talking about higher dimenions.
2. He also said that innumerable is different from infinite, so if you accept his initial word of god, you have to accept this one.
3. He said at some point, when asked why his stories tend to diverge from DC's 6-D cosmology, that he's always written "dimensions" as parallel universes (in other words, without leading questions, dimension=universe).
What the...? The unverses transcend each other now? Also, outerversal DC humans go brr...
Extrapolating "cosmic ladder" to mean dimensions (which seem to mean "universes") transcend each other is weird, not gonna lie.
My head hurts... I'll stop here.
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So, at best, the entire cosmology is only 1-B?
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Pretty much.
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OK, I'll bite; I can agree on a 1-B cosmology for DC. Anyone else think the same here?
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Considering we pretty recently went through a very large revisions that landed it squarely at 1-C, I'm going to say no, probably not.
TimeTrapperFanBoy
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Changed my mind on adding the Trapper and Infinite Man fight, I think what I added should be ok. At least it looks a whole lot better than the current profile we have.
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Are you proposing 1-B for the entire cosmology? Will the cosmologies separated in the revision be reunited?
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Yes, agreed.
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Animal Man could technically get Morrison to at least High 1-B. If we count things based on context rather than direct implication Vertigo may be 1-A as well. Matteis, I have been talking to a lot is in my opinion 1-A.
I really now don't see the need to split this writer's notion or else the same has to apply to every other verse including Marvel.
I really now don't see the need to split this writer's notion or else the same has to apply to every other verse including Marvel.
Excellence616
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I agree with this
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We have already thoroughly went through why it is necessary in our DC Comics Cosmology page.
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I think anyone who has read it understood “why.” This isn't to say many not almost all do not agree simply due to factoring in some things such as contradictions between authors. Plus I added the incentive it happened to DC for that reason it should inadvertently apply to every verse. It's become less and less useable a “split” Cosmology which I had for a long time just gone with but overall I never thought it was too great of an idea.
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Almost all other verses are possible to make some coherent sense of if we make an effort, whereas the modern DC Comics editors and writers have extremely irresponsible made such an absolute mess of things that we unfortunately cannot do so without enormous illogical contradictions, even if many fans would likely find it convenient in order to maximise statistics.
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This is, IMO, the very crucial point. There is very little continuity between Animal Man and the main-stream cosmology contributions that Grant made in the 2000s. He kept Limbo, which is well and good, but a great deal of the avant-garde experimental mythicism he introduced in his earlier works were completely abandoned outside of their individual comic runs.
I see it largely as being motivated by a desire to see beloved characters or series with higher tiers than is really ever demonstrated in these works themselves, and I consider it a big part of our job to be a bulwark against that kind of thing.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I found https://vsbattles.com/threads/vertigo-comics-the-void-1-a-upgrade.156434/ lingering.
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I'll try and get a response in regardless.
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Cope
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Cope
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Who is speaking with Batman in that scan?
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I have no idea, I can't find the full one, but I have seen people try to get the godsphere to outer because its a platonic archetypal realm. But this kind of debunks all of that, even though Platonism doesn't scale that high anyway.
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I’m pretty sure Wally even used time stop on Darkest Knight in the 6th dimension.
The arguments for 1-A god sphere just aren’t that good in general (hence why there’s a whole discussion rule against it).
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It's also not a Platonic realm because it was created and has been destroyed. In Platonism concepts are eternal and unchanging.
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I feel like the Titus arc in JL Classified is a really clear example of Superman's power levels growing over the years. All scans are from JL Classified 50-54.
The original fight with Titus led to Titus nearly killing Superman in his first blow, and Superman is knocked out for at least 12 pages (long enough for Batman to find him, spend several minutes looking for a pulse, fly the Batwing to the other JLA members, hook Barry Allen up to an IV, and get briefed before Superman even moans on page 6, and then 6 pages of fighting I cut before Superman finally reenters the fight on page 12) and even after Supen gets back up, he's repeatedly KO'd three more times. Superman's best blows don't send Titus flying, though they do hurt him.
In contrast, 10 years later, Superman's best kicks and punches send a much stronger Titus flying, he hurts him with his heat vision, and when Titus does down him, he doesn't pass out and is able to bounce back each time within a page. While Titus is still stronger, it's portrayed as far more even. Titus even admits Superman is stronger than before.
The original fight with Titus led to Titus nearly killing Superman in his first blow, and Superman is knocked out for at least 12 pages (long enough for Batman to find him, spend several minutes looking for a pulse, fly the Batwing to the other JLA members, hook Barry Allen up to an IV, and get briefed before Superman even moans on page 6, and then 6 pages of fighting I cut before Superman finally reenters the fight on page 12) and even after Supen gets back up, he's repeatedly KO'd three more times. Superman's best blows don't send Titus flying, though they do hurt him.
In contrast, 10 years later, Superman's best kicks and punches send a much stronger Titus flying, he hurts him with his heat vision, and when Titus does down him, he doesn't pass out and is able to bounce back each time within a page. While Titus is still stronger, it's portrayed as far more even. Titus even admits Superman is stronger than before.
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I see, so what does the scan mean when it says the godsphere is a platonic archetypal realm? Is that just fancy wording for something else? Or is there another interpretation?
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Grant Morrison incorporated dozens of different mythologies, theories, and concepts into his work. But they were rarely/never perfect reflections of the real world description of those ideas.
So, what did he mean by it? Hard to say. It could just he flowery language, he may have intended for it to be full blown Platonism (but not have recognized why that wasn't possible) or something else.
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It depends entirely on the interpretation of the work. It would really be hard to say something is X, if no one read X in the original language and knew the context as they were being developed as with Plato's works. Most of what people understand as platonic interpretation is in fact interpretation from Neo-Platonic authors who over literally centuries, were understood as just being retelling Plato's works, but recently (As in the last two centuries) have started to be understood as being its own branch that didn't notice that their works basically told something that went completely beyond the scope of what was described in Plato's works. And yet most of the modern interpretation still comes from those (If you are talking about emanations, for example, you are talking about Neoplatonic understandings of Plato's works).
Especially talking about change, that is something hard to tell. Because you have tons of philosophical works discussing that and all the different terms and concepts that were used back then that paint a completely different thing than "If they change, they are temporal". There are interpretations that definitely allow for a certain kind of change for spiritual beings that is different from that of physical time. Plato himself would say that souls would come from the world of the Forms that are beyond time and get into the physical world that is within time, if you go from no-time to time, it's a certain kind of change, isn't? That is where all these discussions about what it means to be "beyond time" lie. Some would just say it gets too contradictory and there is no such thing as literally being beyond time even in Plato's works, and that he either didn't know how to explain or just noticed he was wrong, and that was why he stopped using some terms in later works.
And that is where you get into the whole Neo-Platonic thing because the understanding we have is mostly from their interpretation, and they really went deep into making sense of transcendence and the infinite, some people just accept it has a solution because there are dozens of 1000+ page books all trying to make sense of that. While some would go with that, some would just say "There's no such thing as being beyond time and we all just misunderstood Plato's works over the centuries because Neo-platonic scholars).
If anything, if there's a problem with the way it's depicted in DC (And I'm sure it has a lot of problems), these problems are in a way also seen in Plato's own works and have been a point of discussion by different scholars with totally different interpretations.
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Agreed. This is something that even highly educated scholars see differently so it's hard to generalize in terms of it's relationship to DC. It would be better to focus less on what words Batman used to describe the Sphere and try to determine what qualities it can definitively been shown to have, regardless of whether they fit one specific possible framework of "Platonic."
In the above case, it's certainly true that many portrayals of the Sphere very explicitly and directly demonstrate or state that it is a physical space. There are others where it does not. Whether or not a physical realm could be called "platonic" is less important than weighing the preponderance of evidence for or against certain qualities.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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What's the Transduality justifications for Dream of the Endless, Father Time, and Perpetua?
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dream of the endless having transduality shouldn't even be there
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I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't really one for any of them. The cosmic beings were given a lot of weird tiers and abilities before Ant and I cleaned it up
