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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

Deagonx said:
I don't think incorporating Morrison's old 90s comics is the best move, especially since Snyder and Williamson are largely based on Morrison's mid-2000s work and are largely in unity with them. I think merging it to a Crisis Cosmology that uses the unified approach from Williamson makes the most sense, as it resolves a lot of the complications and vagueness around the relationship between those three beings.
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I wouldn't say it made it easier and resolved complications. It rather adds a new narrative to view it differently thus creating a new way of understanding which changes what the other has said.

Like, Metal, did undo a lot of understanding of Morrison. How, Dark Frontier, did a lot to Metal. Grant Morrison really is just the pioneer to have started it. His makes the least sense if we don't go by what he said first.

From what I've read about all of these creators work. Morrison's stand-alone is a lot better than an entire merged Cosmology.
 
Elizio33 said:
After re-reading the blog, why the Sphere of the Gods isn't qualitatively superior to the Orrery? What's the evidence? I don't remember why we listed it as 2-C.

Also. Hypertime should be above the Sphere of the Gods, between the Sphere of the Gods and Limbo.
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Sphere is. The residents of the Sphere are not. Hypertime should be listed just outside of Orrery. It's not transcended by the Sphere but how it functions with the timeline doesn't really concur with the higher aspect of the Multiverse.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
@Elizio33 How, exactly, will the different realms in the Crisis Cosmology be tiered?
Click to expand...

The Orrery and Bleed would be 2-C. Hypertime would be 2-A. The Sphere of the Gods, Monitor Sphere, Fifth Dimension and Sixth Dimension would be Low 1-C. The Unseen Council would be 1-C. The Light of Creation and Great Darkness would be 1-C.
 
Elizio33 said:
The Orrery and Bleed would be 2-C. Hypertime would be 2-A. The Sphere of the Gods, Monitor Sphere, Fifth Dimension and Sixth Dimension would be Low 1-C. The Unseen Council would be 1-C. The Light of Creation and Great Darkness would be 1-C.
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For 2-C, how many universes for each? For Tier 1, what dimensionality for each?
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
For 2-C, how many universes for each? For Tier 1, what dimensionality for each?
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Number of Universes

As seen below, the number of universes was infinite before the Crisis on Infinite Earths which reduced it to a singular universe until the Infinite Crisis which brought back the multiverse with a set number of fifty-two universes occupying the same space at different frequencies, but there could be more with the discovery of the 53rd universe. Here are Kendra Saunders' own words after studying the multiverse map: "We know of fifty-two, we believe it to be the set number." She talks about known universes, suggesting that there may indeed be more universes unknown to anyone in the multiverse that may or may not be separate possibilities stored somewhere in Hypertime.

Geometric and Temporal Dimensions

As for the geometric and temporal dimensions, the multiverse is described as having a 4-D space-time continuum. This was the case for Grant Morrison's approach on the DC Cosmology that was later adopted by Scott Snyder, as evidenced in his Justice League run. In Mr. Mxyzptlk's own words: "The multiverse, as you live it, puny heads, exists in four dimensions..." He explained to the Justice League that they experiences the first four dimensions which, in Snyder's words, are point, line, depth, and time.

The Bleed

The interdimensional between universes. It was described as the substance of life where the House of Heroes rotates through the fifth-dimensional axis in a fixed point in the multiversal structure of the Orrery of Worlds. Four siphons have been drilled in from the Monitor Sphere to the Orrery, to permit harvest of the miracle Ultramenstruum, known also known as Bleed, from the universes of the multiverse, that the Monitors refer to as 'germ worlds.'

Morrison's Final Crisis: Superman Beyond depicts the Bleed to exist in 4-D. These are Monitor Zillo Valla's own words: "We'll traveling through the Bleedstorm space between the universes... But you'll need to upgrade to 4-D vision to truly comprehend what you experience."

Sphere of the Gods

An archetypal realm outside of corporeal reality, at the edge of the multiverse, and the homeworld of all gods, deities and magic. Although the inhabitants of the Sphere of the Gods exist on a higher plane of existence than those of the Orrery of Worlds, they exist in 4-D.

To summarize, the local multiverse is 2-C. There are 52 universes, each existing in 3-D and when you leave them you enter the 4-D Bleed between and around the universes. Every other universe whose exact number is infinite are stored in Hypertime which exists outside of the local multiverse.
 
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In the 2021 finale of Death Metal, the multiverse was restored by the Hands and Earth-0 along with the other universes from the local multiverse were brought back with not only new universes emerging, but also a network of infinite multiverses, becoming its own sort of Omniverse within the Greater Omniverse. Earth-Omega and Elseworld are the two new centers of the new configuration of the multiverse and as Hypertime healed, people had flashes of a myriad of alternative futures and pasts. The Dark Multiverse is still beneath reality.

In Flashpoint Beyond, we've learned that the Omniverse was the Space aspect of the Divine Continuum which integrate the multiverse, the Sphere of the Gods, the Dark Multiverse, the Metaverse, while Hypertime was the Time aspect which integrate Limbo and the Vanishing Point.

This configuration of reality is solid 2-A, but no one has been shown to scale to it, except the Great Darkness.
 
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Elizio33 said:
In the 2021 finale of Death Metal, the multiverse was restored by the Hands and Earth-0 along with the other universes from the local multiverse were brought back with not only new universes emerging, but also a network of infinite multiverses, becoming its own sort of Omniverse within the Greater Omniverse. Earth-Omega and Elseworld are the two new centers of the new configuration of the multiverse and as Hypertime healed, people had flashes of a myriad of alternative futures and pasts. The Dark Multiverse is still beneath reality.

In Flashpoint Beyond, we've learned that the Omniverse was the Space aspect of the Divine Continuum which integrate the multiverse, the Sphere of the Gods, the Dark Multiverse, the Metaverse, while Hypertime was the Time aspect which integrate Limbo and the Vanishing Point.

This configuration of reality is solid 2-A, but no one has been shown to scale to it, except the Great Darkness.
Click to expand...
I believe the Source does as well. In John Stewart The Emerald Knight, it's stated that the Source in like an ocean while the universes and multiverses are like rivers flowing from it. The branching streams of those rivers are hypertime. With that in mind, I would suggest taking a look at Green Lantern runs, post Death Metal, first before finishing. I don't mean this in a rude way. It's mostly because the Source has a lot of info in those runs.
 
Asterotheology said:
I believe the Source does as well. In John Stewart The Emerald Knight, it's stated that the Source in like an ocean while the universes and multiverses are like rivers flowing from it. The branching streams of those rivers are hypertime. With that in mind, I would suggest taking a look at Green Lantern runs, post Death Metal, first before finishing. I don't mean this in a rude way. It's mostly because the Source has a lot of info in those runs.
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I did but it was a long time ago but I think it's just a way of saying that Source encompasses all universes and multiverses, being all born from its energies and shaped by the Hands.
 
Elizio33 said:
I did but it was a long time ago but I think it's just a way of saying that Source encompasses all universes and multiverses, being all born from its energies and shaped by the Hands.
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Possibly. The comic however did release in 2022 after Dark Crisis and Flashpoint Beyond. It's pretty recent. That's all I wanted to mention though. In case there was more information needed.
 
Asterotheology said:
I believe the Source does as well. In John Stewart The Emerald Knight, it's stated that the Source in like an ocean while the universes and multiverses are like rivers flowing from it. The branching streams of those rivers are hypertime. With that in mind, I would suggest taking a look at Green Lantern runs, post Death Metal, first before finishing. I don't mean this in a rude way. It's mostly because the Source has a lot of info in those runs.
Click to expand...
@Antvasima @Deagonx @VeryGoofyToddler what do you think about this?
 
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Elizio33 said:
@Antvasima @Deagonx @VeryGoofyToddler what do you think about this?
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He summed it up perfectly but what is this supposed to entail? The Source scales beyond everything and that specific author has stated before he said even the Darkness was born of the Source.

I don't believe the Darkness is near the Presence in power much less the Source. So Source scales to anything that the Darkness scales to.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
He summed it up perfectly but what is this supposed to entail? The Source scales beyond everything and that specific author has stated before he said even the Darkness was born of the Source.

I don't believe the Darkness is near the Presence in power much less the Source. So Source scales to anything that the Darkness scales to.
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I read the Green Lantern story and it says that the Source emerged in the Darkness. Other than that, yes, the Source scales above everything and everyone in the cosmology, except the Great Darkness.
 
Regardless, the Crisis Cosmology page does not contain the Elemental Realms, the Lord of Order and Chaos, and the Ascended Beings. Can one of you help me? And what do you think of the Godsphere inhabitants existing in 4-D? Should we add the information regarding the Source and Hypertime presented in the Green Lantern story? @VeryGoofyToddler you are welcome to help if you wish.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Elizio33/Sandbox9

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I do not know. Hypertime does not seem to create stable universes, just temporary aberrations in storytelling continuity that are then ignored by other writers/absorbed into the main universal timelines.
 
Elizio33 said:
I read the Green Lantern story and it says that the Source emerged in the Darkness. Other than that, yes, the Source scales above everything and everyone in the cosmology, except the Great Darkness.
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It wasn't created in the Dark. It's from the Dark that it manifested. For how the Darkness as a state of existence isn't created but the Darkness as a being was only defined after it was contrasted by the Light. They just gave God a face thus the gods dreamed of their depiction of a higher force as did the humans to gods. What they comprehended was the Source and it manifested from the Dark, was not created.

Besides older =/= more powerful. Each one didn't make the other. Like God from Matteis Cosmology didn't create the Sea of Brahma since his extension of everything split into nothing that expanded ad infinituim and thus became the sea of nothing before the Love Sea. Not created but an aspect thus part of it. That's what I depict Throne idea was Dark/Darkness is part of it, the unmanifest version of the Source.
 
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Elizio33 said:
Regardless, the Crisis Cosmology page does not contain the Elemental Realms, the Lord of Order and Chaos, and the Ascended Beings. Can one of you help me? And what do you think of the Godsphere inhabitants existing in 4-D? Should we add the information regarding the Source and Hypertime presented in the Green Lantern story? @VeryGoofyToddler you are welcome to help if you wish.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Elizio33/Sandbox9

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Click to expand...
They're not 4D. Even if they were that applies specifically to either avatars or just the resident when entering lower dimension. Since there still is space-time within individual universes.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
It wasn't created in the Dark. It's from the Dark that it manifested. For how the Darkness as a state of existence isn't created but the Darkness as a being was only defined after it was contrasted by the Light. They just gave God a face thus the gods dreamed of their depiction of a higher force as did the humans to gods. What they comprehended was the Source and it manifested from the Dark, was not created.

Besides older =/= more powerful. Each one didn't make the other. Like God from Matteis Cosmology didn't create the Sea of Brahma since his extension of everything split into nothing that expanded ad infinituim and thus became the sea of nothing before the Love Sea. Not created but an aspect thus part of it. That's what I depict Throne idea was Dark/Darkness is part of it, the unmanifest version of the Source.
Click to expand...
All of these weren't even mentioned or implied in Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion, and Joshua Williamson's vision of the DCU. Perhaps DeMatteis sees the Divine Presence as the entity that even defined the pre-creation void, aka Pralaya, and other writers like Mike Carey, Neil Gaiman, and Allen Moore seem to have the same view as DeMatteis, but this does not seem to be the case in modern stories of the four writers mentioned above.
 
Elizio33 said:
All of these weren't even mentioned or implied in Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion, and Joshua Williamson's vision of the DCU. Perhaps DeMatteis sees the Divine Presence as the entity that even defined the pre-creation void, aka Pralaya, and other writers like Mike Carey and Allen Moore seem to have the same view as DeMatteis, but this does not seem to be the case in modern stories of the four writers mentioned above.
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It does. The Green Lantern scans do not imply it was created. It simply came from the Dark and the author of that same story mentions this. Even if we don't use his logic, it never said it was created in it.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
It does. The Green Lantern scans do not imply it was created. It simply came from the Dark and the author of that same story mentions this. Even if we don't use his logic, it never said it was created in it.
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I didn't say it was created in the Darkness, I said it emerged in the Darkness.
 
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Darkseid's abilities (Pre-Flashpoint)

Hey everyone, how about adding some new abilities for Darkseid based on the proofs given? Unfortunately, I don’t yet know the exact name of the abilities and their type on the site, so I will give a general category of abilities. Emanations: The emanations of the New Gods contain entire...
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Hello, I'll need help for the Elemental Realms section for the Crisis Cosmology draft page. Can anyone help me by providing information on Morrison's or James Tynion IV's stories involving the Green, Red and Black, please?
 
Elizio33 said:
Hello, I'll need help for the Elemental Realms section for the Crisis Cosmology draft page. Can anyone help me by providing information on Morrison's or James Tynion IV's stories involving the Green, Red and Black, please?
Click to expand...
Green was mentioned quite a lot during Justice League Dark and Witching Hour.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Green was mentioned quite a lot during Justice League Dark and Witching Hour.
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Well, in JL Dark, the Green said to be not a just place or a realm, nor it is merely imagination. It lies between idea and reality, where memory and consciousness of roots, stems, leaves and flowers exist outside of time and space. Throughout the story, the pillars, like the Green, have been shown to touch all realms, including the Other Place.

This is the only information I have.
 
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vsbattles.com

Minor New 52 Superman addition

Superman is able to increase his capabilities beyond their standard levels by supercharging with excess solar radiation (Superman/Wonder Woman #2), which allows him to defeat stronger opponents like the Olympian God Apollo. higher when supercharged (Overpowered Apollo, who is stronger than...
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