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Gennin level - Massively Hypersonic speed Calculations

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Personally I don't think that all Lightning Style Ninjutsu travels at the speed of lightning due to the statements regarding Kirin.

I understand not everyone agrees with that though.
 
Damage3245 said:
Personally I don't think that all Lightning Style Ninjutsu travels at the speed of lightning due to the statements regarding Kirin.
I understand not everyone agrees with that though.
Click to expand...
It's not because of Kirin but this .
 
Mindovin said:
It's not because of Kirin but this .
Click to expand...
I know that Kep's calc considers that jutsu to travel at lightning speed too (for the reasons listed on that calc). I was saying that I disagreed with those reasons and that there are reasons not to consider all lightning style jutsu as lightning speed.
 
Damage3245 said:
Personally I don't think that all Lightning Style Ninjutsu travels at the speed of lightning due to the statements regarding Kirin. I understand not everyone agrees with that though.
Click to expand...
Kirin Speeds 1
Kirin is a Special Lightning Style Jutsu

Kirin Speeds 2
Kirin Is Special Because It Is Lightning Speed

I agree with this.
An easy example that showcases that Lightning Style Jutsu are obviously not moving at the speed of actual lightning would be Kirin.

When Sasuke first hints towards using Kirin he describes it as a Jutsu that is too fast to avoid and would end in an instant.

First Scan:

In the first scan Black Zetsu points out to White Zetsu that Sasuke is making a Lightning Style Jutsu by using the clouds above that are currently cumlonimbus clouds, thunder clouds.

White Zetsu is perplexed and wonders which Lightning Style Jutsu Sasuke which use; however, Black Zetsu explicitly states: "Doesn't matter. Whichever one it is will be on a totally different scale than what anyone can create using change in chakra nature alone!"

It is explicit that Kirin would be absolutely all around superior to any other Lightning Style Jutsu because it is actually going to use real lightning. Lightning Style Jutsu are not on par with real lightning. An obvious fact as stated by Zetsu.

Second Scan:

In the second scan, Sasuke explicitly states in the first line that Kirin solely guides lightning straight down at it's target: "This jutsu guides the lightning striking down from the heavens... in short I merely direct it's power toward you."

Kirin, as Black Zetsu stated, is all around superior to Lightning Style Jutsu due to utilizing actual lightning and Sasuke explicitly states that Kirin is mainly just directing lightning directly at his target. Kirin moves at lighting speed due to being real lightning per Sasuke's words. Kirin is all around superior to any Lightning Style Jutsu per Black Zetsu's words.

To follow up on this, Black Zetsu solidifies why Kirin is even more special as compared to regular Lightning Style Jutsu:

"Just as I thought... Which is why it cannot be evaded..."

"Why not?"

"The speed of lightning is 1/1000 of a second... It's faster than sound!"

Again, Kirin is a special Jutsu, one that is superior to any Lightning Style Jutsu solely because it uses actual natural lightning per Sasuke and Black Zetsu's words. Kirin is a special Jutsu because it is merely directly lightning itself towards the target itself with it's power and speed per Sasuke's words. Kirin is a special Jutsu that can't be evaded because it's actual lightning and moves at actual lightning speed per Black Zetsu's words.

Another point that disproves Lighting Style Jutsu being lightning speed:

Sasuke already had numerous Lightining Style Jutsu such as the Chidori Stream that he used to incapacitate a group around him.

If all Lightning Style Jutsu were equal to lightning, there would be literally no point in Kirin existing. There would be no reason for Sasuke to have even used actual natural lighting for it's power and speed that makes it powerful and undodgable if all lighting style Jutsu were equal to lightning.
 
I agree with Damage and Imade that each person's style of lightning doesn't have the same speed. But Mitsuki's lightning should be considered a true lightning speed like Kakuzu and Kakashi or not

also, his lightning also reacted with water. which is the real lightning property Not like Kiba's lightning that cannot be reacted to water and caused by changes in shape like a lightning ball
 
Lightning in Naruto has meet all requirements for real light


Not only that but Kishi basically retconned averything about lightning natures


Kakuzus lightning style jutsu is literally stated to be real lightning by the Databook
 
@IMade

In short ... What is your point exactly? Do not come with your walls of gigantic texts, usually out of context and ignoring how Raiton is portrayed in Naruto. And you do not need to explain what happened, I think everyone here can read. And not be able to dodge is hyperbole, Manga contradict this claim.

And yes, Raiton is not comparable to Kirin, which uses natural lightning. The only difference is that the speed of the Kirin / Natural lightning was said by the Manga itself and are much faster than the normal speed adopted by Wikia. Or, the natural lightning in Naruto is faster than our world and this simply does not interfere with common Raiton and his speed.

Beacuse Raiton still possesses more than 5 natural characteristics of natural lightning.

• It conducts materials such as water, metal and others.
• It moves like electricity.
• He is able to numb / paralyze the opponent's body.
• Its weakness is Wind / Fuuton, a natural insulator of electricity.
• It is capable of producing strong electric shocks.
• They have destructive power comparable to real lightning.

So, none of them are comparable to Kirin, but they all have 440 km/s, while Kirin is above it. Or summarizing ... The fact that Kirin is not comparable to Raiton for being real and very fast does not negate the fact that Raiton still has true properties and so has its speed dictated.
 
Not all databook statements are accepted at face value. I think we even have a discussion rule about that.
 
Damage3245 said:
Not all databook statements are accepted at face value. I think we even have a discussion rule about that.
Click to expand...
Uhh dude kakuzuzs lightning is already applied. Which means this site uses his databook entry and Kep was the one who made the calc

In other words you need another argument since everyone here already knows that it's case by case situations and this entry for Kakuzu isn't hype texts
 
I am just going to state this here, It is true that Kirin is much faster than the average lightning jutsu, which is very clearly shown with its feat, being easily calced from mach 3000+ to much much higher, this makes esne because it expends a huge storm cloud for 1 singular blast making it the fastest lighting style we haev ever seen. This leads me to believe that using average lightning speed for most jutsu. Further more I dont get why IMade seems to think that we believe all lightning is comparable to Kirin, Kirin is superior to all lightnign jutsu, based on feats, it is superior to normal lightning, which makes sense, since in verse Kkashi tagged normal lightning with his chidori, which is why it is called the lightning cutter. makes sense in context.
 
Sekkonds. said:
> a feat that was done by a filler character,and in fillers will scale to offical naruto manga characters
Click to expand...
Sumire is not filler, she is in the manga, Boruto manga is not non-canon either and this is for more than just that calc.
 
This is what the verse page says regarding canon:

We consider the Boruto manga canon, since Masashi Kishimoto supervises its script. In that case, the Boruto anime is a secondary source of information, and only takes precedence when dealing with filler characters.
 
Damage3245 said:
This is what the verse page says regarding canon:
We consider the Boruto manga canon, since Masashi Kishimoto supervises its script. In that case, the Boruto anime is a secondary source of information, and only takes precedence when dealing with filler characters.
Click to expand...
Yeah for 1 this is pretty old and is subject to change later, for 2 again this is for more than just this calc.
 
Damage3245 said:
This is what the verse page says regarding canon:

We consider the Boruto manga canon, since Masashi Kishimoto supervises its script. In that case, the Boruto anime is a secondary source of information, and only takes precedence when dealing with filler characters.
Click to expand...

This is old as hell sadly lmao. Kep literally stated a while ago after writers dropped some statements that the anime is used as supporting canon since Kodachi was confirmed as the screenwriter/director for the anime
 
And it seems you guys need to brush up on Boruto


The Boruto arcs in the anime are literally canon excep for after the graduation exams which everything besides Urashiki(canon) is supporting canon
 
MostPowerfull said:
@IMade In short ... What is your point exactly? Do not come with your walls of gigantic texts, usually out of context and ignoring how Raiton is portrayed in Naruto. And you do not need to explain what happened, I think everyone here can read.
Click to expand...
Just wanna say, if you're using Google Translate, I just want you to know how hilarious this sounds when read by a native speaker, it's so archaic. Hilarious.

And not be able to dodge is hyperbole, Manga contradict this claim.
No one dodges it in the manga. Sasuke fires it at Itachi, Itachi doesn't dodge, he blocks it with Susano'o.

And yes, Raiton is not comparable to Kirin, which uses natural lightning. The only difference is that the speed of the Kirin / Natural lightning was said by the Manga itself and are much faster than the normal speed adopted by Wikia.
This is where your assumptions come to a halt.

440 kilometers per second is the accepted standard speed for lightning. Or mach 1282.8.

The objective statements for Kirin's speed:

  • Faster than sound.
  • Reaches the ground in 1/1000 of a second.
These don't automatically make it better than natural lightning, especially the first one.

Obviously the debate is on reaching the ground in 1/1000 of a second which depends on how low the ground is. However, before getting into that let me point out that actual cumulonimbus clouds can be pretty low as reported even by the Wiki's own page on lightning: The clouds that usually cause thunderstorms build about 200m to 4000m above the ground. In this wiki, 2000m is the standard assumption.

If you assumed crossing 200 meters in 1/1000 of a second, you'd get mach 583.09, or 200 kilometers per second. Slower than our standards.

However, this is not my main point in this section of the response. It would actually be about Black Zetsu's statement timeframe of 1/1000.

First: Black Zetsu never mentions the ground in the raws. He solely says:

"One thousandth of a second... it's faster than sound."

Second: This statement could be about Kirin hitting the roof of the Uchiha hideout that Sasuke and Itachi stood upon or the ground. Even if we assumed it to hit the ground, the Uchiha hideout isn't that big. In this scan you can see Sasuke on top of the Uchiha hideout wall at about 21 times shorter. In this next scan, you can see the Uchiha hideout is about 17 times taller than the wall on the top.

This would only make it a little over 610 meters tall.

This is further worsened by how high Kirin and it's cloud is above Sasuke and Itachi. For starters, the cloud is not that high above them, probably about 200 meters even. But wait, it gets worse, Kirin actually comes down lower before striking.

The speed of Kirin could literally range to below Mach 580 to above Mach 2000.

But we definitely can not say Kirin is for sure above our standard Mach 1280 lightning speeds when it has the potential to be even lower than our lightning speeds.

Or, the natural lightning in Naruto is faster than our world and this simply does not interfere with common Raiton and his speed.
I showed this is not reliable above.

Beacuse Raiton still possesses more than 5 natural characteristics of natural lightning.
Okay.

• It conducts materials such as water, metal and others.
It has done this.

• It moves like electricity.
This is not one of the standards.

• He is able to numb / paralyze the opponent's body.
It has done this.

• Its weakness is Wind / Fuuton, a natural insulator of electricity.
This is not one of the standards.

• It is capable of producing strong electric shocks.
This is not one of the standards.

• They have destructive power comparable to real lightning.
This is one of the standards; however, Lightning Style Jutsu vary heavily in destructive power. From Kirin blowing up the Uchiha hideout to Konohamaru shocking a tiny animal off of him.

It can be comparable and not comparable several times. So not all Raiton qualify under this particular characteristic. In fact, almost all of them don't. They're either way above or way below, they pretty much don't qualify under this one since they aren't comparable.
 
" Just wanna say, if you're using Google Translate, I just want you to know how hilarious this sounds when read by a native speaker, it's so archaic. Hilarious. "

Useless comment just to mock his english, mature.

" No one dodges it in the manga. Sasuke fires it at Itachi, Itachi doesn't dodge, he blocks it with Susano'o. "

Sasuke dodges it.


"If you assumed crossing 200 meters in 1/1000 of a second, you'd get mach 583.09, or 200 kilometers per second. Slower than our standards."

And Kirin is quite obviously much higher than 200 meters, and waay above 1000 meters. That already puts it above the standards.


"Second: This statement could be about Kirin hitting the roof of the Uchiha hideout that Sasuke and Itachi stood upon or the ground. Even if we assumed it to hit the ground, the Uchiha hideout isn't that big. In this scan you can see Sasuke on top of the Uchiha hideout wall at about 21 times shorter. In this next scan, you can see the Uchiha hideout is about 17 times taller than the wall on the top."

Wrong I did a calc, and the mountain is at least 800+ meters tall(https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Rocker1189/Kirin_speed_calc_(attempt)) (it likely wont show up go to my very first calc) and Kep got it to 1200 meters+ tall.

I also measure the cloud height and the distance was more than 2000 meters.

Assuming it hits the ground makes the most sense because that would the logical assumption.

"This is further worsened by how high Kirin and it's cloud is above Sasuke and Itachi. For starters, the cloud is not that high above them, probably about 200 meters even. But wait, it gets worse, Kirin actually comes down lower before striking."

Nope that is just the size of Kirin, that does not make it worse, Kirin is the lightning it self, Kirin coming down is the lightning coming down.

I agree with him, you simply write walls of text that literally mean nothing at the end, you propose a whole bunch of random assumptions to get people to think about those rather than the points being made.
 
> Sasuke dodges it.

Sasuke isn't aiming it at himself. Why would Sasuke claim that nobody could dodge the jutsu if he could dodge it quite easily while on zero chakra?
 
Damage3245 said:
> Sasuke dodges it.
Sasuke isn't aiming it at himself. Why would Sasuke claim that nobody could dodge the jutsu if he could dodge it quite easily while on zero chakra?
Click to expand...
Maybe because it is so wide? speed is not everything about dodging, sheer size matters a lot. If you are 10 times faster than something and yet have to cross 20 times the distance it is from you, you wont dodge it.

It does not matter that sasuke is not the aim himself, Kirin was too big for him to have to not dodge it. Evidence being that he is not on the wall when it strikes, and the fact that the wall gets rekt.

Sasuke was on the edge so he new he could get away from it.
 
@IMade

I'll answer this quickly.

• More or less. I use it for some words that I forget. English is not my native language. If you get to debate in portuguese, it would be better for me.

• Sasuke even dodge, is in your profile. Also, I refuted you, Kep and Damage in the CRT in which this was exposed. Ah, of course, that you ignore the manga and contradict it with your fancy texts.
"Sasuke was on the mountain/debris, when the thunderbolt expanded and swallowed her up completely."
Comic.

• ┬╣ Yes ... And? The standard assumption already makes it have Mach 5000+ and being below 2000m is not an option, since the mountain itself already has more than 1000m.
Therefore, the Kirin is the only Raiton that uses natural lightning.
And I clearly remember that this was said to fall to the ground or in the databook, I do not specifically remember. About the second ... If you were referring to the top of the mountain, that would be said.
Therefore, it is an assumption against what has been said. Occam Razor and we got the result. Either way, it's irrelevant.

• ┬▓ Kep has already calculated this in several different ways, including, the mountain has more than 1000m, using these same panels in the calc.
The cloud can not be seen and in the Kep calculation, it is extremely up and has more than 15km (if I am not mistaken) of length.

In fact, being closer to the mountain before being fired makes it faster, as the one thousandth of a second would decrease.

• Yes it is, and it does not matter what you say. Kirin does not scale to the common Raitons and therefore, you can not throw them at the same level. Raiton still with natural properties and have the same speed than a average lightning.

• "This is not one of the standards."
Yes it is. Lightning is an electricity. If something moves like electricity and is strong as the same, then it is in the rules.

• Does not change that it is still a natural lightning feature. And showed to be weak against rubber as well.

• ^^

• Most are comparable, with they usually managing to hurt other ninjas.

Soon, again ... Raiton follows several real lightning characteristics and is not comparable to Kirin, which is faster because it is natural.
So one does not interfere with the other, no matter how hard you try to get out of context and use bizarre headcanons.
 
Damage3245 said:
> Sasuke dodges it.

Sasuke isn't aiming it at himself. Why would Sasuke claim that nobody could dodge the jutsu if he could dodge it quite easily while on zero chakra?
Click to expand...
That's not travel or combat speed but reaction speed.
 
@Damage

Same thing I refuted before. Lightning has expanded, Kep prove this (including by saying that what happened in the manga was a forced perspective, which is strange!) and anime prove this too. Unless Sasuke is intangible, or he leaves the mountain or he was hitted.

The rest, I refuted there and if you want, comment there. Sasuke being tired does not enter the equation, there is no rule about it.
 
Isn't Kirin stated to be faster than a normal lightning? If that's the case then why is lightning Jutsu being told that's its not as fast as lightning yet Kirin can be considered it? that's makes ABSOLUTELY no sense. ALL lightning style Jutsu r considered real lighting and there r so many evidence which is more then those that try to debunk it
 
Lightning in Naruto has meet all requirements for real light

so imade u guys doing same so don't be unreasonable
 
BlackeJan said:
Isn't Kirin stated to be faster than a normal lightning? If that's the case then why is lightning Jutsu being told that's its not as fast as lightning yet Kirin can be considered it?
Click to expand...
Sasuke stated that he considered the technique to be impossible to dodge.

Zetsu clarified that this was because of the speed of the jutsu, which travels at the speed of natural lightning.

That makes it distinctly faster than regular lightning jutsu.

BlackeJan said:
that's makes ABSOLUTELY no sense. ALL lightning style Jutsu r considered real lighting and there r so many evidence which is more then those that try to debunk it
Click to expand...
Not all Lightning Style Jutsu has been said to travel at the speed of lightning. In the manga itself, only Kirin has been said to travel that fast.

Think of it like this; when a Shinobi uses a technique to launch a fireball or send a boulder flying; is the speed of the jutsu determined by the element? Do Wind Style jutsu only travel at the speed of the wind?
 
Damage3245 said:
Sasuke stated that he considered the technique to be impossible to dodge.

Zetsu clarified that this was because of the speed of the jutsu, which travels at the speed of natural lightning.

That makes it distinctly faster than regular lightning jutsu.

Not all Lightning Style Jutsu has been said to travel at the speed of lightning. In the manga itself, only Kirin has been said to travel that fast.

Think of it like this; when a Shinobi uses a technique to launch a fireball or send a boulder flying; is the speed of the jutsu determined by the element? Do Wind Style jutsu only travel at the speed of the wind?
Click to expand...
Nope zetsu clarified that kirin travels at 1/1000th of a second and is above anything normal lightning jutsu can do, it is even above average lightnign speeds.

That is true not all lightning jutsu has been explicitly stated to travel at the speed of lightning but they behave exactly like lightning all the same.

The speed of the jutsu is decided by the user but the jutsu work just as their elements, wind does not have a specific speed. fireball generally dont exist in the way they do in like any fictional medium an dthus dont have a set speed either, and a boulder moves at the speed you throw it, yet lightning jutsu have been stated to be electrical discharges thus should work jsut as quickly as lightning.
 
@Damage

Hyperbole. He did this in manga.

Kirin has Mach 5000+, at least.

And obviously... But that still does not interfere with the speed of ordinary Raitons.

____________________________________________

Natural lightning is faster than own natural lightning in Narutoverse. Still not interfere with the speed of ordinary Raitons.

Meaningless comparison. Raiton show true features, albeit slower than the Kirin. Soon, they scales below the Kirin, at 440 km/s.
Again, one does not interfere with the other.
 
None of those elements have a "set speed" if you will in which they travel at. There isn't a such thing as traveling at the speed of "fire" or "earth" "wind" of "water"...the speed of those would definitely have to depend on the caster. However, Lightning does have a set speed (or range of speed) that it could travel at.
 
Jvando said:
None of those elements have a "set speed" if you will in which they travel at. There isn't a such thing as traveling at the speed of "fire" or "earth" "wind" of "water"...the speed of those would definitely have to depend on the caster. However, Lightning does have a set speed (or range of speed) that it could travel at.
Click to expand...
The point is that if a jutsu made of a certain element can travel at a certain speed depending the caster, why can't a jutsu that is made of lightning also travel as a certain speed depending on the caster?

Where is the statement that all Lightning Style Ninjutsu used by all Shinobi all travel at the same speed?
 
Damage3245 said:
The point is that if a jutsu made of a certain element can travel at a certain speed depending the caster, why can't a jutsu that is made of lightning also travel as a certain speed depending on the caster?

Where is the statement that all Lightning Style Ninjutsu used by all Shinobi all travel at the same speed?
Click to expand...
It does, but jutsu elements work just as normall elements, lightning works to be fast specifically. Thus it should have a soecific speed range.

That is why we use average speeds, just like in literally every lighting calc on this site.
 
@Damage

It is shown that the Raiton possesses the true characteristics of natural lightning.

So, just ignore this just downgrade, it's dishonest.
 
Rocker1189 said:
It does, but jutsu elements work just as normall elements, lightning works to be fast specifically. Thus it should have a soecific speed range.

That is why we use average speeds, just like in literally every lighting calc on this site.
Click to expand...
Few Lightning Style Ninjutsu have been noted for their speed. Most of the time their speed seems comparable to the other elements.

As far as I can recall there is no statement in the Naruto manga or databooks that all Lightning Style Ninjutsu travels at comparable speeds, or that all of them can be compared to natural lightning in terms of speed.

@Jvando; There is actually a maximum recorded wind speed of 408 km/h according to wikipedia.
 
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