Ghostface Separation (Feat. The Lakewood Slasher)

[ShockingPsychic]

The current, singular Ghostface profile doesn't work for a few reasons.

Ghostface isn't a single person, it's an identity taken on by nine different people over the course of the series. Each person who takes on the identity has a different personality, with different methods of doing things, so why do we group all of them (minus Roman) into one profile?

While yes, they all have similar powers and abilities, that doesn't change the fact that they are different people, all of whom are distinct enough to warrant their own personal profiles.

So, my suggestion is this; Each Ghostface gets their own profile, followed by giving each pair their own Team profile.

These would be;

(1996 Killings)
Billy Loomis
Stu Macher

(1998 Killings)
Mickey Altieri
Mrs. Loomis

(2000 Killings)
Roman Bridger (No team profile)

(2011 Killings)
Jill Roberts
Charlie Walker

(2021 Killings)
Richie Kirsch
Amber Freeman

Every Ghostface can still scale to each other via harming Sidney (who's profile I have ready to post) and mostly have their own 9-C feats.

There are also minor ability differences.

Billy Loomis and Jill Roberts should both have Social Influencing via successful convincing their partners (Stu and Charlie) to kill for them. Neither Stu or Charlie seemed like they wanted to kill to begin with, given how Stu claims he was "peer pressured" and how Charlie comments that he didn't want to kill Kirby.

Roman should have Preparation, due to the trap he made for the Stab 3 cast members.

Amber can probably have definite Pain Resistance and possibly Resistance to Fire/Heat due to being able to jump up and continue fighting after suffering severe burns over her entire body.

Oh, and this also applies to The Lakewood Slasher trio and the Resurrection Ghostface duo.

TL;DR - Each Ghostface killer gets their own profile cuz the Composite doesn't work out.

 

[Everything12]

Looking at the profiles and additions your proposing. Their is not enough to each of them that just justifies creating so many different profiles with such small power and ability sections when simply creating keys, and maybe like one or two extra profiles to seperate continuities so their aren't too many keys, would work to divide them.

Though I do agree that they should be separated and not composite regardless of how similar they are if they are different people.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Would having 9 different profiles for different characters with similar abilities not be better than a single profile with anywhere from 5 to 9 keys? That's just the mainline movie continuity.

 

[Everything12]

Mind listing me all the abilities and different statistics that each of these profiles would have?

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I'll make a couple example sandboxes when I have the chance.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Continuing to function with burns is more a stamina feat than heat resistance. Regarding the other stuff, the different incarnations of Ghostface almost all bring the same abilities and equipment to the game. If we divide it into individual killers like the Scream Wiki does, we're talking about nine separate pages all detailing the same things, except for Roman and the new killers. And three seperate Lakewood Slasher pages.

Alternatively we're talking nine keys, all the same, on a page. Even dividing it by film we're talking either a page with five keys or five pages, three of which are identical to each other while the other two are themselves identical to each other. And at the end of the day, the character Ghostface is essentially an in-universe fictional being who all nine killers are playing. They even identify as the same person sometimes, asking Sidney if she remembers them, as if Ghostface is itself an identity. Out of the above options, five is better than nine, and a single page with five almost interchangeable keys is probably preferable to five almost interchangeable pages.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I can personally make all the profiles, so workload shouldn't be an issue.

I feel it to be disingenuous to cram all of the killers on a single page, when each of then are their own separate characters with their own feats and personalities. For example, Billy Loomis prefers to strangle his targets, while Roman prefers to lure them in and sneak attack.

For example, the killers from Dead By Daylight also have similar powers, but are kept separate due to their lore and approaches to combat.

A lesser example, but Roy Burns is a copycat killer of Jason Voorhees with all the same statistics, but is kept separate due to being a different person altogether.

The Ghostfaces aren't nameless goons like the Squid Game Guards or Stormtroopers, each has their own name, personality, motivations, feats, and are the main antagonists of the series they appear in. Each of them, individually, should be worthy of their profiles, despite similar statistics. Alternatively, we could separate them into their pairs.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I guess it doesn't matter much. I'm just not sure having that many Ghostface pages is a good thing for the Wiki as a whole.

One thing I must contest slightly regardless is the scaling. I'm not sure we should place Billy higher than Mickey when Sidney should be stronger in Scream 2 than Scream 1. Roman does stick out as the only Ghostface to ever stomp Sidney though, and arguably the strongest Sidney, Scream 3.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Why would having more profiles be bad for the wiki as a whole?

And did Jill not stomp Sidney? She stabbed her once and she was out.

 

[Propellus]

Why would having more profiles be bad for the wiki as a whole?

And did Jill not stomp Sidney? She stabbed her once and she was out.

She never stomped her, she just stabbed her in her most vital area. And also, onto the hospital, Sidney was injured for the whole time

 

[Random-Helper323]

Sidney had just woken up in the Intensive Care Unit, and Jill was already attacking her. So no, Sidney was definitely not at her peak there.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Bump

 

[Armorchompy]

Amber can probably have definite Pain Resistance and possibly Resistance to Fire/Heat due to being able to jump up and continue fighting after suffering severe burns over her entire body.

Probably just a stamina feat. rest is good

 

[Qawsedf234]

Personally I wouldn't split them into different profiles, but splitting them into different keys shouldn't be that hard. Most of the Ghostfaces are interchangeably physically and with equipment, with only a certain few having extra stuff. We could just do what we do for Michael Myers where we have a subtabber for Halloween I and II since different films consider one of the two canon.

So maybe

"Most people | Ghostface 3 dude | Idk tv"

With subtabbers in the most people section for the equipment since AP wise they're interchangeable

 

[Random-Helper323]

Personally I wouldn't split them into different profiles, but splitting them into different keys shouldn't be that hard. Most of the Ghostfaces are interchangeably physically and with equipment, with only a certain few having extra stuff. We could just do what we do for Michael Myers where we have a subtabber for Halloween I and II since different films consider one of the two canon.

So maybe

"Most people | Ghostface 3 dude | Idk tv"

With subtabbers in the most people section for the equipment since AP wise they're interchangeable

What you've described above is actually what the Ghostface profile currently does. It currently only has two keys, one for standard Ghostface and one for Scream 3. That was what we did following the previous CRT. Regarding the subtabbers for equipment, all but Roman use the same equipment, a buck knife and voice changer, and later they steal a police pistol. Roman is similar but has body armour and multiple knives, and a far more useful voice changer. He's the only one whose equipment is different enough to be noteworthy.

I feel it to be disingenuous to cram all of the killers on a single page, when each of then are their own separate characters with their own feats and personalities. For example, Billy Loomis prefers to strangle his targets, while Roman prefers to lure them in and sneak attack.

For example, the killers from Dead By Daylight also have similar powers, but are kept separate due to their lore and approaches to combat.

A lesser example, but Roy Burns is a copycat killer of Jason Voorhees with all the same statistics, but is kept separate due to being a different person altogether.

The Ghostfaces aren't nameless goons like the Squid Game Guards or Stormtroopers, each has their own name, personality, motivations, feats, and are the main antagonists of the series they appear in. Each of them, individually, should be worthy of their profiles, despite similar statistics. Alternatively, we could separate them into their pairs.

The issue with different pages is that they all spend most of their combat time wearing the same ghost mask, the same suit, wielding the same weapon with similar tactics, they all call Sidney using the same voice modulator to harass her, they all target other people with some sort of reason for the victim being targeted, they all even hold the knife the same way despite it being the wrong way to use a knife as a weapon. And for most casual readers, Ghostface is the name they know. Having nine Ghostface profiles will just confuse most people. And people are already confused by the two keys with the same statistics; there's a comment on it in a Ghostface versus thread that's currently open, since many people only read the powers and abilities section and the AP and speed sections, which for the Ghostface keys are essentially identical. Imagine increasing that to nine or even five keys, all but one of them being truly identical stat-wise.

Regarding the similar situations you listed, the killers from Dead by Daylight have entirely different skills, tactics and appearances from each other and aren't copycats of each other. And Roy Burns who is a copycat is not really similar to Jason due to being inferior in every possible way, lacking pretty much everything that makes Jason the monster he is.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Roman is similar but has body armour and multiple knives, and a far more useful voice changer. He's the only one whose equipment is different enough to be noteworthy.

Amber and Richie also wore body armor and carried multiple knives. They're new, and haven't even been added to the profile yet, but worth mentioning.

The issue with different pages is that they all spend most of their combat time wearing the same ghost mask, the same suit, wielding the same weapon with similar tactics,

Their tactics vary, if only a little bit. Billy tends to strangle his opponents when he gets in close, Mrs. Loomis won't strike unless the victim is close to her and allows her to pull them away, Richie/Amber usually just try to slowly overpower their victims and stab them slowly, and Roman of course does things such as throwing his knives and luring people in with voice changing equipment. All of these little things are still big enough to warrant a note in the "Standard Tactics" section. If this were done on one profile, this would get cluttered.

And for most casual readers, Ghostface is the name they know. Having nine Ghostface profiles will just confuse most people.

Accuracy > Adhering to misconceptions. It should be really easy to still have each killer be known as Ghostface. Just something like "Name: Jill Roberts, Ghostface" and a picture of her both in and out of costume should be enough to clear up that she's Ghostface. That combined with them being from the Scream verse should make it obvious.

And people are already confused by the two keys with the same statistics; there's a comment on it in a Ghostface versus thread that's currently open, since many people only read the powers and abilities section and the AP and speed sections, which for the Ghostface keys are essentially identical. Imagine increasing that to nine or even five keys, all but one of them being truly identical stat-wise.

Thus different profiles entirely, as these are, at the end of the day, all different characters.

Regarding the similar situations you listed, the killers from Dead by Daylight have entirely different skills, tactics and appearances from each other and aren't copycats of each other.

The main argument seemed to be that the Ghostfaces having identical stats was enough to warrant a composite profile. Again, while the Ghostfaces are copycats, they are different people altogether. I touched on their different tactics early in this post, so I won't repeat it here.

 

[Armorchompy]

Personally I wouldn't split them into different profiles, but splitting them into different keys shouldn't be that hard. Most of the Ghostfaces are interchangeably physically and with equipment, with only a certain few having extra stuff. We could just do what we do for Michael Myers where we have a subtabber for Halloween I and II since different films consider one of the two canon.

So maybe

"Most people | Ghostface 3 dude | Idk tv"

With subtabbers in the most people section for the equipment since AP wise they're interchangeable

Definitely not, they're not a species or something, just cause they're interchangeable doesn't mean they should share a profile.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I suppose nine or five Ghostface profiles can be done. People will have trouble knowing the difference, and there'd certainly be clutter. It would be more accurate to the trivia of the film series and would allow for versus threads between different Ghostface killers. My main concern is that nine or five basically identical pages, all named interchangeably as far as most readers are concerned, will seem like needless clutter to most readers, and is adding four to eight pages to the Wiki to include information which for all intents and purposes is all already present in the existing page.

For a parallel, the Wiki used to have a Hannah Washington (Until Dawn) profile, and has removed it and kept the Makapitew, even though Hannah is literally the main Wendigo in the game and is the one that performs every feat, while the Makapitew appears for less than five minutes and performs no significant feats before it dies. And it seems to be done due to the interpretation that Hannah is possessed by the Makapitew and the Wiki can simply use the Makapitew. In other words, because Hannah's page is seen as clutter due to listing the same things. Personally I think it'd make more sense to keep her page and get rid of the Makapitew page, but oh well.

 

[Qawsedf234]

just cause they're interchangeable doesn't mean they should share a profile.

It's mostly because none of them are notable on there own outside of maybe 2 movies. Splitting people so featless just seems off to me.

Personally I think it'd make more sense to keep her page and get rid of the Makapitew page, but oh well.

In that case it's mostly because Hannah doesn't do much as a human and was possessed by Maka for the entire duration. Since it's actively taking her over there's more reason to just have him there than both.

 

[Propellus]

But either way, I just don't see the point in making separate profiles for the Ghostfaces when all you could do is just simply make the keys for them.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I feel just using keys would lead to a single, very cluttered profile.

It's also not like each key would be a different form, or a different appearance of a single character like how keys are typically used for. The keys would detail separate people that wear the same costume over the course of 25 years, which, at that point, more profiles would be less cluttered than a single page with 5-9 keys.

 

[Armorchompy]

It's mostly because none of them are notable on there own outside of maybe 2 movies. Splitting people so featless just seems off to me.

??? That can't be used to arbitrarily fuse them, just cause they're not the most interesting profiles.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

It's mostly because none of them are notable on there own outside of maybe 2 movies. Splitting people so featless just seems off to me.

I'm pretty sure most of them have at least a couple 9-C feats besides holding a knife.

 

[Qawsedf234]

??? That can't be used to arbitrarily fuse them

I meant more along the lines that almost all of them are 9-C with very little differences. The only thing separating them is gear.

 

[Armorchompy]

I meant more along the lines that almost all of them are 9-C with very little differences. The only thing separating them is gear.

Still, can't really just fuse them into one profile, they're relatively unrelated people.

 

[Propellus]

But what would be the use of separate profiles when some of the ghostface killers are literally featless on their own terms?

 

[ShockingPsychic]

But what would be the use of separate profiles when some of the ghostface killers are literally featless on their own terms?

None of them are featless except maybe Richie, and even then he can still scale due to harming Sidney and having a knife/gun.

 

[CuteAnimeNekoGirl99]

I do agree with this given that Ghostface is a mask that several people have taken up over the years

 

[Random-Helper323]

I meant more along the lines that almost all of them are 9-C with very little differences. The only thing separating them is gear.

Not even gear. Only Roman and the new film are seperated by gear. The others all use the same gear.

While seperate pages for different 9-C and the like characters who otherwise are only a little different do exist (certain characters from Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings for example), those characters aren't just copycats of each other and don't all look alike and get known by the same title across the series.

I feel just using keys would lead to a single, very cluttered profile.

It's also not like each key would be a different form, or a different appearance of a single character like how keys are typically used for. The keys would detail separate people that wear the same costume over the course of 25 years, which, at that point, more profiles would be less cluttered than a single page with 5-9 keys.

I can see both sides here. Seperating the characters will make it far easier to choose which Ghostface is used at any given time, and will allow slightly more detail on tactics. And it is a factor. In fact Stu is currently getting killed in a versus thread against a drunk for his lack of fighting experience, a fight Roman might win.

On the other hand, you're still talking about six identical pages and three slightly different ones that are themselves almost identical to each other. And all scaling off another page. All of them barely strong enough to have a page to begin with and all coming from a franchise that even many horror fans haven't heard of. I'm not sure they really warrant having nine almost interchangeable pages. Whatever's agreed to is fine, it's just that there are pros and cons either way.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

and all coming from a franchise that even many horror fans haven't heard of.

The Scream series is the 6th highest grossing horror franchise in the United States. I wouldn't call that obscure.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah no Scream is huge lol, and I say this as someone who has never touched it.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I know it isn't obscure, but highest grossing horror franchise is less impressive than you might think. Check how much it actually makes per film. It goes back to why slasher films were so common in the 1980's. It's because they're relatively cheap to make, making it easy to make a profit. All I really meant was that a lot of people haven't heard or don't care about it. Anyway, derailing. I can see value to both ways of thinking here, just keep in mind that if you make multiple pages it'll be a bit of a clutter for the Wiki. But on the other hand, dividing it into individual killers will remove the confusion about which killer is being discussed. I'm fine with whichever is decided upon, but just keep both sides of the equation in mind.

 

[Armorchompy]

keep in mind that if you make multiple pages it'll be a bit of a clutter for the Wiki.

We have 30 thousand pages, and I genuinely think over a thousand of those are just "dude with gun", or "dude who just has the same powers as other people in the verse", notability shouldn't be a concern.

 

[Random-Helper323]

We have 30 thousand pages, and I genuinely think over a thousand of those are just "dude with gun", or "dude who just has the same powers as other people in the verse", notability shouldn't be a concern.

Good point. There's already clutter. I didn't mean to seem pedantic, I'm just thinking of the staff who patrol edits and have to do large scale changes. Still, being a low tier is often a factor too. I've seen characters not receive pages due to being tier 10. Anyway, it doesn't matter. If we're all sold on making nine Ghostface pages, let's talk scaling. Obviously Roman is the top, but I don't think we should assume Sidney remains the same strength the whole time. Scream 1 Sidney should be the weakest by far. So Billy being above Mickey is uncertain. I guess we can credit them all for beating the peon of jobbers, aka Dewey.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Roman > Jill, Charlie, Amber, Richie > Billy, Stu, Mrs. Loomis, Mickey

Everyone after Roman shouldn't be too much weaker than him, since they all could take on a more experienced Sidney. It's not like she got weaker with age, we see her working out in Scream 5.

Since we seem to be in agreement, I can start work on the individual pages. I made Sidney's page yesterday, to help with the scaling chain.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Roman > Jill, Charlie, Amber, Richie > Billy, Stu, Mrs. Loomis, Mickey

Everyone after Roman shouldn't be too much weaker than him, since they all could take on a more experienced Sidney.

Jill and Charlie were getting stomped by Sidney. It took surprise attacks and Sidney being in shock to see Jill is the killer to get her. They fared even worse than Mickey who needed to pull out his stolen gun to win. And while Sidney was likely going to win, Debbie came close to beating her. In regards to Sidney, her weakest incarnation is the first film, and she likely got stronger with each film. Although age is a harsh opponent, so maybe Scream 3 is her strongest incarnation.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I have Billy, Stu, Mickey, and Mrs. Loomis' profiles done. I'll post them later, and then move onto Roman, Jill, Charlie, Richie, and Amber.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

she likely got stronger with each film

How come?

To my knowledge, nothing ever suggests that Sidney got any stronger between the events of the first through the fourth film. Following Scream (1996), Sidney simply moved to another university to avoid Ghostface; however, she was practically the same fearful Sidney from the original massacre. Following Scream 2, Sidney moved to a remote location, purchased a gun, and installed caller ID onto her home phone, indicating that she has finally grown out of her former, teenage shell and has taken actual measures to combat Ghostface; but, again, nothing suggests she got stronger.

The same goes for the events between Scream 3 and Scream 4 — Sidney is more alert and prepared now, but nothing suggests stronger. AFAIK, there is never any mention of Sidney working out or doing any remarkable physical training, nor do her fighting skills really improve either — she is sloppy all-throughout the first four movies, something you would expect out of someone who relies on a handgun.

It was not until Scream (2022) that Sidney was shown to be much older, much bigger, a more capable fighter — taking on a surprisingly active role in the final battle with Amber and decking her a bit — more physically active than before, regularly exercising and taking jogs through the park.

The only reasonable assumption we can make is that 42 y/o Sidney > 17-33 y/o Sidney.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I take that back. Sidney is a much different fighter in Scream 2 than she was in the first movie.

 

[Random-Helper323]

There's also the fact Billy and Stu are significantly smaller than Mickey, and Debbie is an adult. Mickey is also a young adult while Billy and Stu are teenagers. So realistically Mickey should be stronger than them.