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Goku and Jiren vs. Gogeta.
- Thread starter Omegas03
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In Scenario 1, Gogeta wins. His time limit doesn't seem to be especially restricting on his power and UI Goku can only last a minute.
Once Goku drops from UI, Gogeta should be capable of overwhelming LB Jiren.
As for Scenario 2, Jiren isn't a teamplayer and has never displayed any skill at teamwork. Goku will have to pick up Jiren's slack and try to synergise with his fighting style.
Gogeta has Vegeta and Goku's experiences and styles combined into one fighter, whereas Goku and Jiren hav to learn to work together in the heat of the fight.
As far as I can tell, Jiren offers nothing special in terms of his abilities. His primary use is his power and Kiai punches, but Goku also has Kiai punches as well as the instincts of UI.
I think Gogeta can take down Jiren, but it really comes down to whether or not Gogeta can surpass UI Goku's speed. Which is a cause for much debate.
Overall. Gogeta takes Scenario 1 due to superior stamina/limit to UI Goku and having the skills, abilities and power to take down LB Jiren but Scenario 2 depends on the gap between Goku and Gogeta.
Once Goku drops from UI, Gogeta should be capable of overwhelming LB Jiren.
As for Scenario 2, Jiren isn't a teamplayer and has never displayed any skill at teamwork. Goku will have to pick up Jiren's slack and try to synergise with his fighting style.
Gogeta has Vegeta and Goku's experiences and styles combined into one fighter, whereas Goku and Jiren hav to learn to work together in the heat of the fight.
As far as I can tell, Jiren offers nothing special in terms of his abilities. His primary use is his power and Kiai punches, but Goku also has Kiai punches as well as the instincts of UI.
I think Gogeta can take down Jiren, but it really comes down to whether or not Gogeta can surpass UI Goku's speed. Which is a cause for much debate.
Overall. Gogeta takes Scenario 1 due to superior stamina/limit to UI Goku and having the skills, abilities and power to take down LB Jiren but Scenario 2 depends on the gap between Goku and Gogeta.
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Well, Jiren would actually work alongside Goku's Ultra Instinct instead of trying to force his own flow. This should enable Goku's UI to fully optimise. If Jiren goes against the flow of Goku's fighting, Goku will be overall less effective due to having to accomodate for Gogeta and Jiren.
If they combine their powers, they could also utilise Goku's Soaring Fist and Jiren's Infinity Rush for coordinated ranged and melee attacks. Jiren might be able to lockdown Gogeta with Infinity Rush long enough for UI Goku to use a Super Kamehameha or land a barrage of Soaring Fists, for example.
If Jiren doesn't work with Goku...Goku will have to accomodate, lessening UI's efficiency against Gogeta and making it easier for Gogeta to take out UI Goku.
If they combine their powers, they could also utilise Goku's Soaring Fist and Jiren's Infinity Rush for coordinated ranged and melee attacks. Jiren might be able to lockdown Gogeta with Infinity Rush long enough for UI Goku to use a Super Kamehameha or land a barrage of Soaring Fists, for example.
If Jiren doesn't work with Goku...Goku will have to accomodate, lessening UI's efficiency against Gogeta and making it easier for Gogeta to take out UI Goku.
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lets try to use some multipliers here
to prove a point, lets say MUI is a 10000x multiplier to ToP arc SSB goku
SSB = 1 therefore MUI = 10000
base gogeta was shown to be equal or stronger than SSB goku.
ssj, ssj2, ssj3, SSG and SSB multipliers are in order: 50, 2, 3, 3, 50 (ssg is unknown but lets make it 3x ssj3 for now)
1 x 50 x 2 x 3 x 3 x 50 = 45000
even with a mega wanked multiplier of 10000x, MUI is still weaker than SSB gogeta...
to prove a point, lets say MUI is a 10000x multiplier to ToP arc SSB goku
SSB = 1 therefore MUI = 10000
base gogeta was shown to be equal or stronger than SSB goku.
ssj, ssj2, ssj3, SSG and SSB multipliers are in order: 50, 2, 3, 3, 50 (ssg is unknown but lets make it 3x ssj3 for now)
1 x 50 x 2 x 3 x 3 x 50 = 45000
even with a mega wanked multiplier of 10000x, MUI is still weaker than SSB gogeta...
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Blue being much stronger than red is common sense. It being 50 times stronger is when things get more complicated.
It's similar to how we are supposed to believe that UI is at least hundred of time s stronger than blue despite Jiren fighting seriously against universe 7 toward the end before Goku even pulled UI.
It's similar to how we are supposed to believe that UI is at least hundred of time s stronger than blue despite Jiren fighting seriously against universe 7 toward the end before Goku even pulled UI.
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it really depends on your point of view. look at it this way.
once Gogeta goes super saiyan, he will capable of no selling SSBKK20 and SSBE vegeta the same way Jiren did in episode 127.
then you have ssj2, which would no diff, ssj Gogeta.
then you have ssj3, which would no diff ssj2 Gogeta.
then you have ssg, which is likely a Huge multiplier over ssj3.
then you have ssb Gogeta, which seeing how episode 109 highlighted the gap in power beween god and blue, Gogeta would only need a finger to deal with his ssg self.
it really depends on wether MUI is actually in tens of thousands of times stronger than SSB, or even SSBKK.
once Gogeta goes super saiyan, he will capable of no selling SSBKK20 and SSBE vegeta the same way Jiren did in episode 127.
then you have ssj2, which would no diff, ssj Gogeta.
then you have ssj3, which would no diff ssj2 Gogeta.
then you have ssg, which is likely a Huge multiplier over ssj3.
then you have ssb Gogeta, which seeing how episode 109 highlighted the gap in power beween god and blue, Gogeta would only need a finger to deal with his ssg self.
it really depends on wether MUI is actually in tens of thousands of times stronger than SSB, or even SSBKK.
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As I said, it depends on how you scale them relative to eachother. If UI Goku is anywhere close to Gogeta Blue, he can realistically dodge Gogeta's attacks.ZERO7772 said:
The whole scaling of the Big Four (Goku, Jiren, Broly and Gogeta) is a huge matter of debate, after all.
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I mean, here people agreed upon Gogeta > MUI and UBW. But I've seen other pages/people with the Base Jiren or at least UBW > SSB Gogeta belief, they don't take Goku's vague statement seriously and they believe Gogeta has no business on being Beerus tier since else there would have been an mention on it, unlike UI Goku and Jiren.
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> Base Jiren or at least UBW > SSB Gogeta
Where did you read such thing? Usually when I am bored I check some DB foums like reddit and Kanzenshuu and 90% of the people there held the same belief like here to SOME extent.
There was a spark for some time for Jiren being stronger than fusions due to dragon ball heroes but that quickly died after Gogeta trashed Hearts.
Where did you read such thing? Usually when I am bored I check some DB foums like reddit and Kanzenshuu and 90% of the people there held the same belief like here to SOME extent.
There was a spark for some time for Jiren being stronger than fusions due to dragon ball heroes but that quickly died after Gogeta trashed Hearts.
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Comicvine people make prett crazy calims I can see that. I never went to Facebook to have debates so I dunno.
Most active Kanzenshuu are pretty split on the whole Broly vs Jiren debate but most of them have Gogeta above everyone else.
It's really hard to have Jiren > Gogeta without dismissing the characters, staff, the promos, and the novel.
Most active Kanzenshuu are pretty split on the whole Broly vs Jiren debate but most of them have Gogeta above everyone else.
It's really hard to have Jiren > Gogeta without dismissing the characters, staff, the promos, and the novel.
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People usually dismiss promos and inconsistent statements.
I mean, Frieza's statement can easily be disregarded because it's incredibly inconsistent with Goku's claim. Promos tend to be wrong.
It's just as plausible to have Base Jiren/UIO3 Goku > Gogeta Blue as say, UBW Jiren >= SSJFP Broly or even SSJ Broly > UBW Jiren. It's based on interpretations but I still believe it's crazy to have Omen Goku > Gogeta Blue so I prefer going by Gogeta Blue > MUI Goku >/= UBW Jiren > Base Jiren >/= Broly. I believe Broly being GoD tier is more consistent instead of any "Broly is the strongest" or "Broly ain't reaching GoD tier because Goku doesn't know Beerus power" claims.
Now that I think about it GoDs are the main problem when talking about ToP main dogs or Gogeta/Broly.
I mean, Frieza's statement can easily be disregarded because it's incredibly inconsistent with Goku's claim. Promos tend to be wrong.
It's just as plausible to have Base Jiren/UIO3 Goku > Gogeta Blue as say, UBW Jiren >= SSJFP Broly or even SSJ Broly > UBW Jiren. It's based on interpretations but I still believe it's crazy to have Omen Goku > Gogeta Blue so I prefer going by Gogeta Blue > MUI Goku >/= UBW Jiren > Base Jiren >/= Broly. I believe Broly being GoD tier is more consistent instead of any "Broly is the strongest" or "Broly ain't reaching GoD tier because Goku doesn't know Beerus power" claims.
Now that I think about it GoDs are the main problem when talking about ToP main dogs or Gogeta/Broly.
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The issue is how much stronger Gogeta is.ZERO7772 said:
To add further, if UIS Goku/Base Jiren are considered stronger than Beerus (i.e claiming all GoDs should be comparable and Base Jiren should surpass Beerus) then that means UI Goku and LB Jiren scale far above FPSS Broly, just like SSB Gogeta.
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I don't either. I personally think Beerus is the strongest God of Destruction. My tiering for them goes:
1. Beerus (Displays less fear and reactions than Belmod, is comparable to FPSS Broly)
2. Belmod (Claims Base Jiren is stronger than him and no one can defeat Jiren)
3. Heles (Displayed fear and disgust towards Frieza, has no anti-feats or anti-statements)
4. Champa (Constantly surprised by mortals like Goku, Hit, Frieza and Dyspo. Is stated to be weaker than Beerus by Vados and is generally just full of anti-statements)
5. Sidra (Depicted as the least competent and a poor God of Destruction, Frieza managed to overpower and control a fraction of Sidra's energy)
The other seven GoDs can't really be scaled properly due to having zero statements or reasons to order them, outside of the manga.
It's worth noting that Whis and Vados claim two GoDs fighting would cause the erasure of multiple universes, they don't specify that Beerus and Champa fighting would be specifically 2-C. So if the GoDs have a scaling chain, it's arguable for GoDs to be higher than 50% 2-C, with Beerus being possibly 2-C.
1. Beerus (Displays less fear and reactions than Belmod, is comparable to FPSS Broly)
2. Belmod (Claims Base Jiren is stronger than him and no one can defeat Jiren)
3. Heles (Displayed fear and disgust towards Frieza, has no anti-feats or anti-statements)
4. Champa (Constantly surprised by mortals like Goku, Hit, Frieza and Dyspo. Is stated to be weaker than Beerus by Vados and is generally just full of anti-statements)
5. Sidra (Depicted as the least competent and a poor God of Destruction, Frieza managed to overpower and control a fraction of Sidra's energy)
The other seven GoDs can't really be scaled properly due to having zero statements or reasons to order them, outside of the manga.
It's worth noting that Whis and Vados claim two GoDs fighting would cause the erasure of multiple universes, they don't specify that Beerus and Champa fighting would be specifically 2-C. So if the GoDs have a scaling chain, it's arguable for GoDs to be higher than 50% 2-C, with Beerus being possibly 2-C.
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- Thread starter
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I think the fear and disgust is quite vague tbh and shouldn't be taken into account.
Helles's universe is about beauty things so people like Frieza don't definitely exist there. She was more or less disgusted and that shouldn't be indicative of power.
While Beerus knows a lot of people like Frieza and is used to that. It's obvious he won't feel anything after seeing him many times lol. Though if we use the Manga Helles is definitely < Beerus.
About Beerus, the argument for him displaying less reactions is valid, but Jiren is U11 No. 1 warrior and I think Belmod being concerned is kinda justified and likely due to that Jiren could get eliminated before he reveals his Full Power. Guy was sandbagging the whole time.
Then in one part both Belmod's Kaioshin when Vegeta fought Jiren said Shin is blind when Shin said Vegeta had an advantage. Maybe Belmod's reactions are to add more drama or himself just teasing U7, the guy is as dirty as U4 lol.
Helles's universe is about beauty things so people like Frieza don't definitely exist there. She was more or less disgusted and that shouldn't be indicative of power.
While Beerus knows a lot of people like Frieza and is used to that. It's obvious he won't feel anything after seeing him many times lol. Though if we use the Manga Helles is definitely < Beerus.
About Beerus, the argument for him displaying less reactions is valid, but Jiren is U11 No. 1 warrior and I think Belmod being concerned is kinda justified and likely due to that Jiren could get eliminated before he reveals his Full Power. Guy was sandbagging the whole time.
Then in one part both Belmod's Kaioshin when Vegeta fought Jiren said Shin is blind when Shin said Vegeta had an advantage. Maybe Belmod's reactions are to add more drama or himself just teasing U7, the guy is as dirty as U4 lol.
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Helles's universe is about beauty things so people like Frieza don't definitely exist there. She was more or less disgusted and that shouldn't be indicative of power.
It's more or less an indication that Heles has less exposure to people like Frieza, whereas Beerus has plenty of experience with him. I take it as a sign that Heles' universe probably doesn't face nearly as much serious combat as Universe 7, 6 or 11 and results in her not being as battle-oriented.
Regardless, nothing scales her to Belmod and Beerus but nothing would scale her to Champa and Sidra, so placing her in the middle is the best solution.
Jiren is U11 No. 1 warrior and I think Belmod being concerned is kinda justified and likely due to that Jiren could get eliminated before he reveals his Full Power.
True, but Belmod does display insane levels of fear regarding Goku and clearly doesn't believe he could ever stand a chance against base Jiren, whereas Beerus simply displays awe at Jiren's power and respects Goku's Ultra Instinct.
Overall, it's clear Belmod is at least a pretty neurotic guy. Beerus is generally much calmer regarding the tournament and rarely lost his cool over Jiren, despite Jiren being borderline impossible for Universe 7 to defeat.
It's a point of contention if Belmod is just neurotic but I feel like Beerus's general stoicism and respectful awe would indicate he is less concerned over Jiren's power than Belmod's cocky overconfidence and constant freak-outs.
Then in one part both Belmod's Kaioshin when Vegeta fought Jiren said Shin is blind when Shin said Vegeta had an advantage.
That was from Vegeta hitting Jiren just a few times. Belmod consistently makes the exact same misjudgement regarding Goku and is consistently proven wrong, so Shin and Belmod share similar overconfidence and 'blindness'.
Maybe Belmod's reactions are to add more drama or himself just teasing U7, the guy is as dirty as U4 lol.
If this were manga Belmod, I could see it but anime Belmod doesn't display any level of trickery or deceit. He's just a seriously overconfident person that goes crazy whenever Jiren seems to be even slightly losing.
It's more or less an indication that Heles has less exposure to people like Frieza, whereas Beerus has plenty of experience with him. I take it as a sign that Heles' universe probably doesn't face nearly as much serious combat as Universe 7, 6 or 11 and results in her not being as battle-oriented.
Regardless, nothing scales her to Belmod and Beerus but nothing would scale her to Champa and Sidra, so placing her in the middle is the best solution.
Jiren is U11 No. 1 warrior and I think Belmod being concerned is kinda justified and likely due to that Jiren could get eliminated before he reveals his Full Power.
True, but Belmod does display insane levels of fear regarding Goku and clearly doesn't believe he could ever stand a chance against base Jiren, whereas Beerus simply displays awe at Jiren's power and respects Goku's Ultra Instinct.
Overall, it's clear Belmod is at least a pretty neurotic guy. Beerus is generally much calmer regarding the tournament and rarely lost his cool over Jiren, despite Jiren being borderline impossible for Universe 7 to defeat.
It's a point of contention if Belmod is just neurotic but I feel like Beerus's general stoicism and respectful awe would indicate he is less concerned over Jiren's power than Belmod's cocky overconfidence and constant freak-outs.
Then in one part both Belmod's Kaioshin when Vegeta fought Jiren said Shin is blind when Shin said Vegeta had an advantage.
That was from Vegeta hitting Jiren just a few times. Belmod consistently makes the exact same misjudgement regarding Goku and is consistently proven wrong, so Shin and Belmod share similar overconfidence and 'blindness'.
Maybe Belmod's reactions are to add more drama or himself just teasing U7, the guy is as dirty as U4 lol.
If this were manga Belmod, I could see it but anime Belmod doesn't display any level of trickery or deceit. He's just a seriously overconfident person that goes crazy whenever Jiren seems to be even slightly losing.
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We at least know Universe 6 suffers regular wars (potentially due to Frost, their version of Frieza) and Universe 11 has enough threats to warrant the Pride Troopers, hell a random monster managed to tag and grab Dyspo which already places that fodder as a potentially SSG-level threat.ZERO7772 said:
I would note Universe 9, but that's honestly just random degenerates ruining galactic civilisation due to Sidra not keeping them in check, rather than actual wars and villains at work.
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Your comment is vague. Are you referring to someone from Universe 9? I already stated their universe is the result of Sidra not keeping them in check. Universe 2, on the other hand, seems to be pretty peaceful. Their warriors are intergalactic celebrities and they were completely content watching the ToP, even accepting their erasure with little upset.
Sidra's weakness is shown in how he doesn't even bother with maintaining order. Heles' (argued) weakness stems from her own universe being peaceful, resulting in her having less of an impetus to be a stronger God of Destruction.
Beerus is a battle nut that genuinely desires rivals and encourages tyrants like Frieza to exist, and we don't know the story behind Belmod but we do know Universe 11 has its fair share of powerful villains and Belmod emphasizes strongly with his universe's heroes, even training a Pride Trooper to be his successor. It's not far-fetched to see why Belmod's impetus to be a stronger God of Destruction is stronger than Heles and Sidra.
As for Champa, he's simply lazy.
Every other GoD is lacking in backstory or feats, considering the three we saw fight were doing it purely to entertain Zeno. Quitela could be argued to be weaker than Beerus and Belmod due to preferring trickery and underhanded tactics (which is shown in the manga, with him manipulating the other gods so he could last until the very end) but there is lacking evidence.
Sidra's weakness is shown in how he doesn't even bother with maintaining order. Heles' (argued) weakness stems from her own universe being peaceful, resulting in her having less of an impetus to be a stronger God of Destruction.
Beerus is a battle nut that genuinely desires rivals and encourages tyrants like Frieza to exist, and we don't know the story behind Belmod but we do know Universe 11 has its fair share of powerful villains and Belmod emphasizes strongly with his universe's heroes, even training a Pride Trooper to be his successor. It's not far-fetched to see why Belmod's impetus to be a stronger God of Destruction is stronger than Heles and Sidra.
As for Champa, he's simply lazy.
Every other GoD is lacking in backstory or feats, considering the three we saw fight were doing it purely to entertain Zeno. Quitela could be argued to be weaker than Beerus and Belmod due to preferring trickery and underhanded tactics (which is shown in the manga, with him manipulating the other gods so he could last until the very end) but there is lacking evidence.
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Inderictly Respondingh to something a couple comments above, Most people in those crazy forums held the believe of MUI being > a blue fusion because of the controversial anime who had vegito blue weaker than base cumber, while a trailer for the game had MUI Goku fighting ssj3 cumber.
For some reason, people took the game scaling as proof in canon.
They also wouldnt have forseen heroes rewriting said scaling and having gogeta beat the shit out of someone who scales far above even heroes jiren, who scales above even ssj3 cumber.
For some reason, people took the game scaling as proof in canon.
They also wouldnt have forseen heroes rewriting said scaling and having gogeta beat the shit out of someone who scales far above even heroes jiren, who scales above even ssj3 cumber.
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I think Gogeta would take it honestly. He can beat either of them 1 on 1 comfortably and they wouldn't have good synergy I don't think.
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Gogeta slaps both of them
Director of the Broly movie stated that whatever Broly took, the normal enemy would've died 3 times, and last I check, Jiren simply took 40 to 50 punches and a Kamehameha, and he lost.
And neither MUI or Jiren are close to Gogeta level, anyone who thinks they are need to lay off the drugs
Director of the Broly movie stated that whatever Broly took, the normal enemy would've died 3 times, and last I check, Jiren simply took 40 to 50 punches and a Kamehameha, and he lost.
And neither MUI or Jiren are close to Gogeta level, anyone who thinks they are need to lay off the drugs
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Scenario 1 Gogeta FRA.
Scenario 2 Gogeta high diff because he demolished someone who's probably stronger than Beerus, which is the same boat Jiren is in as far as the scaling chain is concerned. UI Goku is roughly on Jiren's level, and Gogeta won't have to worry about their teamwork because they both suck at it. Especially Jiren. Jiren isn't that far above Broly, if at all.
Scenario 2 Gogeta high diff because he demolished someone who's probably stronger than Beerus, which is the same boat Jiren is in as far as the scaling chain is concerned. UI Goku is roughly on Jiren's level, and Gogeta won't have to worry about their teamwork because they both suck at it. Especially Jiren. Jiren isn't that far above Broly, if at all.
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