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Goku and Toppo have their rematch.
- Thread starter Omegas03
- Start date
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Tournament of Power rules (going out on stage is a elimination) or normal battle?
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Okay, i'll be tune in, i'm thinking about the winner.
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Either scenario, I see Goku winning.
UIO2 Goku should have the AP advantage here Since GoD Toppo was slightly stronger than the initial SSBE Vegeta that was equal to Post-UIO2 SSBKKx20 Goku. With every UIO limit break, Goku's strongest form was always still significantly beneath his previous UIO.
Post-UIO1 Goku - Got one-shot by someone with power comparable to the Genkidama that was beneath UIO1.
Post-UIO3/Post-UI Goku - Is stated to "nearly" be a God by the writers of the Broly movie, and UIO3 was comparable to a fully powered Jiren that is stronger than the Gods.
So, Post-UIO2 SSBKKx20 Goku should be significantly beneath UIO2 Goku, and Toppo is only slightly above SSBKKx20 Goku. Plus Goku already has a resistance to the effects of the Hakai, and he has a fairly obvious speed advantage.
I don't really see a wincon for Toppo here. If someone could point one out, that would be great, but until then it seems to me that Goku pretty much stomps. It would be more fair if you used Broly Saga SSB Goku instead.
UIO2 Goku should have the AP advantage here Since GoD Toppo was slightly stronger than the initial SSBE Vegeta that was equal to Post-UIO2 SSBKKx20 Goku. With every UIO limit break, Goku's strongest form was always still significantly beneath his previous UIO.
Post-UIO1 Goku - Got one-shot by someone with power comparable to the Genkidama that was beneath UIO1.
Post-UIO3/Post-UI Goku - Is stated to "nearly" be a God by the writers of the Broly movie, and UIO3 was comparable to a fully powered Jiren that is stronger than the Gods.
So, Post-UIO2 SSBKKx20 Goku should be significantly beneath UIO2 Goku, and Toppo is only slightly above SSBKKx20 Goku. Plus Goku already has a resistance to the effects of the Hakai, and he has a fairly obvious speed advantage.
I don't really see a wincon for Toppo here. If someone could point one out, that would be great, but until then it seems to me that Goku pretty much stomps. It would be more fair if you used Broly Saga SSB Goku instead.
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In scenario 2 I was clear about my thought that Goku would win, in the first one I wasn't sure.
After the profound analysis of LordTracer I have decided my vote: Victory is for Goku in both cases.
After the profound analysis of LordTracer I have decided my vote: Victory is for Goku in both cases.
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UIO2 doesn't have any AP advantage at all. He was struggling to land any dececive blow on Kefla. She even mentioned Goku's punches to be weak. While even a serious Jiren acknowledged SSBE Vegeta to be powerful. I could see UIO2 blitzing Toppo for a while until he gets hakai'd out of existence
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I explained clearly why he has an AP advantage, and UIO2 landed several blows that clearly affected Kefla. And Goku resists Hakai.
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That's purely your assumption on how it works, mate. There's no comparison between Hint of True Power Jiren and UIO2 Goku or Kefla.
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Ultra Instinct Bump
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"I've never encountered an energy as strong and heavy as this." Vegeta was referring to a suppressed Jiren Goku Blue was fighting almost on par with. Toppo ***** on Kefla.
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UI Goku for LordTracer's reasons.
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Are you seriously saying suppressed Jiren > Kefla now, when that's very clearly contradicted? Even if you downplayed SSJ2 Kefla to being UIO1 Goku level, that would still make her = to suppressed Jiren. Also Vegeta never even sensed Kefla so...Zamasu Chan said:
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Are you seriously saying suppressed Jiren > Kefla now, when that's very clearly contradicted? Even if you downplayed SSJ2 Kefla to being UIO1 Goku level, that would still make her = to suppressed Jiren. Also Vegeta never even sensed Kefla so...
> Vegeta never sensed Kefla.
That's a big brained argument.
Also contradicted how?
> Vegeta never sensed Kefla.
That's a big brained argument.
Also contradicted how?
XSOULOFCINDERX
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I'm pretty sure Toppo slaps this Goku.
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Your entire argument there is that Vegeta says suppressed Jiren is the strongest he's ever encountered. He didn't sense or fight Kefla, so she obviously wouldn't be included there.
And I just explained how it's contradicted. Even if Kefla was downplayed to being comparable to UIO1 Goku, she'd still be equal to a suppressed Jiren. And she was explicitly stated to surpass that, and she surpassed UIO2 Goku that surpassed UIO1, so she is by far above a suppressed Jiren.
And I just explained how it's contradicted. Even if Kefla was downplayed to being comparable to UIO1 Goku, she'd still be equal to a suppressed Jiren. And she was explicitly stated to surpass that, and she surpassed UIO2 Goku that surpassed UIO1, so she is by far above a suppressed Jiren.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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How can Vegeta not sense her when she and Goku were the most powerful people fighting at the time? That makes no sense.
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This. Especially when regular blue Goku was fighting on par with a less suppressed Jiren.XSOULOFCINDERX said:
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I did not say he couldn't sense her, I said he didn't. Because there is nothing that says he did, and even if he did, his statement is still contradictory. And if you want to be literal, Vegeta himself never "encountered" Kefla, so that's even more reason why he wouldn't be including her.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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I'm sorry, but that's stupid. There's literally no way he didn't sense her considering sensing Ki is damn near, if not actually a passive ability.
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Yet there's still nothing that says Vegeta actually sensed Kefla, and going by his own wording, he wouldn't be including her in his statement since he never encountered her.
And again, it's still contradictory.
And again, it's still contradictory.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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She was slinging Ki EVERYWHERE! Vegeta would have to be a brain dead idiot not to notice her power level!
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That is still not encountering her, going by Vegeta's exact wording.
And as you keep not responding to, it is still contradictory to Kefla's feats.
And as you keep not responding to, it is still contradictory to Kefla's feats.
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> With every UIO limit break, Goku's strongest form was always still significantly beneath his previous UIO.
This is more on the speculation side. Goku's first amp wasn't that big, there's no evidence he got an amp after UIO2 itself, and the actual low 2-C amp was after Anilaza because of a Zenkai boost.
Secondly, after UIO1 Base Kefla fodderizes robots Base Goku was having trouble against. Base Goku fights ssj2 Caulifla equally then ssj2 fights ssj2 Caulifla equally. There's clearly a big problem with your logic that Goku got 100x stronger after UIO1 because that's literally contradicted twice in the same fight. It's not the first time base Goku fought an opponent that was way stronger than him.
The amp Goku got from UIO1 was unquantifiable so anything higher or even close to 20x is headcanon.
This is more on the speculation side. Goku's first amp wasn't that big, there's no evidence he got an amp after UIO2 itself, and the actual low 2-C amp was after Anilaza because of a Zenkai boost.
Secondly, after UIO1 Base Kefla fodderizes robots Base Goku was having trouble against. Base Goku fights ssj2 Caulifla equally then ssj2 fights ssj2 Caulifla equally. There's clearly a big problem with your logic that Goku got 100x stronger after UIO1 because that's literally contradicted twice in the same fight. It's not the first time base Goku fought an opponent that was way stronger than him.
The amp Goku got from UIO1 was unquantifiable so anything higher or even close to 20x is headcanon.
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Evidence that his first amp wasn't that large, and evidence that Goku only got a boost from a Zenkai and not UIO2? Also explain why UIO2 would be the only UIO to not give Goku a boost when both UIO1 and UIO3 did.
Please explain how Goku getting that much stronger is contradicted. Goku and Caulifla were shown several times throughout their fight to be clashing fists and matching each other's power, so SSJ2 Caulifla was not "way stronger" than him.
The amp Goku got from all of the boosts was unquantifiable, so really, you can't say what values are or aren't headcanon.
Please explain how Goku getting that much stronger is contradicted. Goku and Caulifla were shown several times throughout their fight to be clashing fists and matching each other's power, so SSJ2 Caulifla was not "way stronger" than him.
The amp Goku got from all of the boosts was unquantifiable, so really, you can't say what values are or aren't headcanon.
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Kefla is unquantifiably above UIO1, Toppo is at least 20x UIO1 plain and simple. Unquantifiable > 20???
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You mean Kefla is vastly superior to UIO2, which is stated to be superior to UIO1.
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She's superior to UIO2 but not more than 2x because she was overpowered by a Kamehameha. And UIO2 is still unquantifiably above UIO1.LordTracer said:
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And I explained, using the other UIO showings, why UIO2 should be vastly above UIO1. Also I wouldn't call hitting someone while they're incapable of properly defending themselves to be overpowering them.
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And I already explained why these exaggerated amps aren't anywhere near Toppo.LordTracer said:
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No, you really didn't. You gave one statement from Vegeta that is contradicted by feats, and made the assumption that unquantifiable can't be above 20x when it absolutely can.
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Evidence that lssj2 Kefla > UIO2 > UIO1 is higher that 20 times?LordTracer said:
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Literally scroll up to my first post in this thread.
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This. UI Goku easily wins anyway. Toppo probably won't even be able to touch him given UI and he resists EE as well. I agree with this and with Tracer tbh.Dragomer said:
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If a serious Jiren can KO UIO3 Goku (before he started adapting further) then what makes you think he wouldn't do the same to UIO2? What I'm trying to say is that SSBE Vegeta & SSB KK Goku were actually able to go h2h against Jiren. While Jiren even acknowledged Vegeta's punch to be powerful. UIO2 Goku doesn't have any AP advantage over SSBE or GOD Toppo at all. He might be faster. That's it. His form will eventually run out & Toppo will hakai himDragomer said:
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> UIO2 Goku should have the AP advantage here Since GoD Toppo was slightly stronger than the initial SSBE Vegeta that was equal to Post-UIO2 SSBKKx20 Goku. With every UIO limit break, Goku's strongest form was always still significantly beneath his previous UIO.
You're right but there's one big problem with this. Goku's amp after UIO2 didn't make him low 2-C. He was still 3-A in blue. Goku's third amp was after U7 defeated all of U3. Since Goku's third amp has nothing to do with UIO it makes your argument rather moot. And it's entirely possible that Blue Goku surpassed her, because again, his low 2-C amp wasn't because of UIO.
> Your entire argument there is that Vegeta says suppressed Jiren is the strongest he's ever encountered. He didn't sense or fight Kefla, so she obviously wouldn't be included there.
This is stupid, Vegeta stopped his fight with Toppo just to sense Kale just to sense her energy but all of a sudden he's incapable of sensing Kefla's?
> And I just explained how it's contradicted. Even if Kefla was downplayed to being comparable to UIO1 Goku, she'd still be equal to a suppressed Jiren. And she was explicitly stated to surpass that, and she surpassed UIO2 Goku that surpassed UIO1, so she is by far above a suppressed Jiren.
Jiren was suppressed the entire time until UI. Besides Jiren was superior to UIO1 because he only landed two hits that did next to no damage against Jiren and effortlessly caught Goku's last punch that he put all his effort into. So it's not a contradiction because suppressed Jiren was above UIO1 in the first place. Suppressed Jiren being the heaviest ki Vegeta's felt just means suppressed Jiren was > Kefla. It's very blatant and to deny such is ignorance along with mental gymnastics.
INB4 you say Goku's UIO2 is 100x baseline. I already debunked that.
Base Caulifla >= robots
Base Goku = robots
Base Goku = ssj2 Caulifla
Ssj2 Goku = ssj2 Caulifla
Do you see the problem with your dumb reasoning? How can base Goku be = ssj2 Caulifla when he was having trouble against robots that base Caulifla defeated? How can ssj2 Goku fight equally with ssj2 Caulifla and not automatically one shot her if he was equal to her ssj2 form in base? Do you see the problem now? Anyway we go with what's consistent and that's base Goku is comparable to base Caulifla and ssj2 Goku is comparable to ssj2 Caulifla. Base Goku fighting her equally is a literal outlier.
So no Goku does not have the AP.
You're right but there's one big problem with this. Goku's amp after UIO2 didn't make him low 2-C. He was still 3-A in blue. Goku's third amp was after U7 defeated all of U3. Since Goku's third amp has nothing to do with UIO it makes your argument rather moot. And it's entirely possible that Blue Goku surpassed her, because again, his low 2-C amp wasn't because of UIO.
> Your entire argument there is that Vegeta says suppressed Jiren is the strongest he's ever encountered. He didn't sense or fight Kefla, so she obviously wouldn't be included there.
This is stupid, Vegeta stopped his fight with Toppo just to sense Kale just to sense her energy but all of a sudden he's incapable of sensing Kefla's?
> And I just explained how it's contradicted. Even if Kefla was downplayed to being comparable to UIO1 Goku, she'd still be equal to a suppressed Jiren. And she was explicitly stated to surpass that, and she surpassed UIO2 Goku that surpassed UIO1, so she is by far above a suppressed Jiren.
Jiren was suppressed the entire time until UI. Besides Jiren was superior to UIO1 because he only landed two hits that did next to no damage against Jiren and effortlessly caught Goku's last punch that he put all his effort into. So it's not a contradiction because suppressed Jiren was above UIO1 in the first place. Suppressed Jiren being the heaviest ki Vegeta's felt just means suppressed Jiren was > Kefla. It's very blatant and to deny such is ignorance along with mental gymnastics.
INB4 you say Goku's UIO2 is 100x baseline. I already debunked that.
Base Caulifla >= robots
Base Goku = robots
Base Goku = ssj2 Caulifla
Ssj2 Goku = ssj2 Caulifla
Do you see the problem with your dumb reasoning? How can base Goku be = ssj2 Caulifla when he was having trouble against robots that base Caulifla defeated? How can ssj2 Goku fight equally with ssj2 Caulifla and not automatically one shot her if he was equal to her ssj2 form in base? Do you see the problem now? Anyway we go with what's consistent and that's base Goku is comparable to base Caulifla and ssj2 Goku is comparable to ssj2 Caulifla. Base Goku fighting her equally is a literal outlier.
So no Goku does not have the AP.
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You're right but there's one big problem with this. Goku's amp after UIO2 didn't make him low 2-C. He was still 3-A in blue. Goku's third amp was after U7 defeated all of U3. Since Goku's third amp has nothing to do with UIO it makes your argument rather moot. And it's entirely possible that Blue Goku surpassed her, because again, his low 2-C amp wasn't because of UIO.
> Evidence that the amp wasn't from UIO2? I asked for this earlier and you didn't give anything.
This is stupid, Vegeta stopped his fight with Toppo just to sense Kale just to sense her energy but all of a sudden he's incapable of sensing Kefla's?
> I explicitly said Vegeta was not incapable of doing it. And as I said many times already, going by Vegeta's own wording, he did not "encounter" Kefla.
Jiren was suppressed the entire time until UI. Besides Jiren was superior to UIO1 because he only landed two hits that did next to no damage against Jiren and effortlessly caught Goku's last punch that he put all his effort into. So it's not a contradiction because suppressed Jiren was above UIO1 in the first place. Suppressed Jiren being the heaviest ki Vegeta's felt just means suppressed Jiren was > Kefla. It's very blatant and to deny such is ignorance along with mental gymnastics
> Obviously, when I say suppressed Jiren, I mean Jiren before he used a hint of his true power. And Jiren was clearly shown to take damage from one of UIO1's attacks, so... it clearly doesn't because Vegeta's own words wouldn't include Kefla. To say otherwise would be to twist what is actually shown in the series.
You do realize the Goku/Caulifla fight was not once used in my reasoning as to why UIO2 has the AP advantage, right? Also...
How can ssj2 Goku fight equally with ssj2 Caulifla and not automatically one shot her if he was equal to her ssj2 form in base?
> Caulifla adapts. Duh. This was stated and shown in the series. Pretty sure I've also mentioned this before, and with how much you like to contest me on this, I'd think you'd know that already.
> Evidence that the amp wasn't from UIO2? I asked for this earlier and you didn't give anything.
This is stupid, Vegeta stopped his fight with Toppo just to sense Kale just to sense her energy but all of a sudden he's incapable of sensing Kefla's?
> I explicitly said Vegeta was not incapable of doing it. And as I said many times already, going by Vegeta's own wording, he did not "encounter" Kefla.
Jiren was suppressed the entire time until UI. Besides Jiren was superior to UIO1 because he only landed two hits that did next to no damage against Jiren and effortlessly caught Goku's last punch that he put all his effort into. So it's not a contradiction because suppressed Jiren was above UIO1 in the first place. Suppressed Jiren being the heaviest ki Vegeta's felt just means suppressed Jiren was > Kefla. It's very blatant and to deny such is ignorance along with mental gymnastics
> Obviously, when I say suppressed Jiren, I mean Jiren before he used a hint of his true power. And Jiren was clearly shown to take damage from one of UIO1's attacks, so... it clearly doesn't because Vegeta's own words wouldn't include Kefla. To say otherwise would be to twist what is actually shown in the series.
You do realize the Goku/Caulifla fight was not once used in my reasoning as to why UIO2 has the AP advantage, right? Also...
How can ssj2 Goku fight equally with ssj2 Caulifla and not automatically one shot her if he was equal to her ssj2 form in base?
> Caulifla adapts. Duh. This was stated and shown in the series. Pretty sure I've also mentioned this before, and with how much you like to contest me on this, I'd think you'd know that already.
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