Goku and Vegeta upgrade

[ZERO7772]

I mean seriously this is pointless when arrogant character wank about their power it's just BS most of the time, Kefla is already low 2-C for fighting UI Goku without half ass statement, Zamasu also claimed that he is infinite in power once he fused and he's only 3-A

stop dragging this, please

 

[Jobbo]

It's not derailing, it's countering the argument that people have used infinite power as hyperbole before. Both Kefla and Zamasu backed their statements up.

 

[Ryukama]

I think no one except Goku and Vegeta should scale from this, mainly because Goku powered up in episode 122.

I agree with this honestly. Especially with the concerns of nonsensical backwards scaling, making everyone Low 2-C and having all and their mother be rated stronger than Ultra Instinct as Dark mentioned.

 

[Peter1129]

Quoting my reply from above.

Is this really that complicated? Only Vegeta, Anilaza and 17's barrier directly scales to Post-Kefla Goku. Nobody else has any direct scaling other than team contribution alongside a Low 2-C. And I'm pretty sure neither Goku nor Vegeta used their full power against Koichiarator and only distracted him to give Gohan an opening so why even bring him up?

Nobody other than Vegeta, Anilaza and 17's Barrier should be Low 2-C.

 

[ZERO7772]

I am fine with this

 

[Dark649]

I also agree with Ryukama.

 

[Ryukama]

Honestly, the whole upgrade with UI Goku to low 2-C make little sense in the first place
Just because he can throw hands with casual Jiren that doesn't put him as the tier as him

>UI Goku shook the World of Void

>The casual Jiren that UI Goku threw hands with was stated to be stronger than Infinite Zamasu and on or greater than God of Destruction level

He should be Low 2-C

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I also agree.

 

[ZERO7772]

>UI Goku shook the World of Void

>The casual Jiren that UI Goku threw hands with was stated to be stronger than Infinite Zamasu and on or greater than God of Destruction level

He should be Low 2-C

IIRC the world of void feat is High 3-A and nearly every character we listed as 3-A here was able to throw hands with Jiren such as Hit and normal SSB Vegeta

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I agree with Ryu's reasoning.

 

[TheRustyOne]

So what happens if 17 and Golden Frieza hold their own against GoD Toppo?

(Though I can see Toppo beating both of them making it a 2 vs 2)

 

[ZERO7772]

low 2-C for everyone~

Well it really depend on what boost Toppo get from his new power, unless they say exactly he is GoD level now he won't be going anywhere

 

[Ryukama]

Jiren literally glared away Hit's strongest attack. Hit is obviously not on Jiren's level at all, and using him trading blows with a completely suppressed Jiren is a horrible way to somehow disprove UI Goku's rating. Vegeta's ultimate attack which broke all of Vegeta's limits and surpassed his previous strength did absolutely nothing to Jiren at all.

They are obviously not anywhere close to comparable to Jiren, and they only manage to sort of swap hands with an utterly surpressed Jiren.

UI Goku was gaining the upperhand on a far more serious Jiren, actually did harm to this Jiren, and the same Jiren was stated to be stronger than Infinite Zamasu and GoD level.

How on earth are Hit and Vegeta's fights with Jiren at all the same as UI Goku's fight with him?

 

[Dark649]

It's Super writing Ryukuma, also Toppo seems to be implied that he will be considered on God of Destruction level.

 

[Peter1129]

Can't we just ignore the GoD Toppo stuff for until the Episode comes out and just focus on the current Low 2-C scaling. Which isn't even that complicated it's pretty straight forward people just make it sound unnecessarily complicated.

 

[Ryukama]

Here are my suggestions.

For Vegeta: Universe level+ (He and Goku managed to continously trade blows with Jiren, who was "finally showing a hint of his true power". According to Whis, the two even managed to throw Jiren off.)

Goku doesn't need a new key. Just rename his Low 2-C one "Tournament of Power Arc" and note that Low 2-C is for Ultra Instinct and Episode 124 onward zenkai boosted SSB Kaioken.

 

[Peter1129]

What about Anilaza and 17's barriers? Anilaza is directly scaled to overpowering Post-Kefla SSB Goku while 17's Barrier is scaled to withstanding Anilaza's attack and damaging Anilaza's energy reactor.

 

[Ryukama]

The Goku that fought on par with this Jiren had powered up and gotten stronger since the one that had fought Anilaza. And Gohan, Frieza, 17 and a far weaker Vegeta all managed to contribute the blast on equal grounds as Goku and not get instantly overpowered by Anilaza. And then there's all the people who scale to those 4. Which ends up backwards scaling many people to being Low 2-C and stronger than Ultra Instinct. Only scaling current, more powerful Goku to this is a lot more reasonable and better for scaling.

 

[Peter1129]

They never mentioned anything about another power up though? And from what we know so far only UIO gives Goku a power up. And I don't think the team contribution even matters that much. Since even after Android 17 stopped his energy beam they were still able to barely hold it back. And for all of them to contribute the same amount of effort as Post-Kefla Goku who is already stronger than Pre-Jiren SSBKKx20 is just dumb. So I'm pretty sure it was mostly Goku that was contributing to the beam struggle. The animators only made it seem like they contributed just as much as Goku.

 

[Ryukama]

The likely zenkais that Goku's been getting from the fights after and when he was getting his ass handed to him by Jiren. Which prompts him to start powering up significantly and as Beerus said show all the strength he had.

Also if we're going that route is there any statements that SSB Goku after he fought Kefla is now stronger than before?

It's not like those fighters just gave energy for Goku to use like a Spirit Bomb. They were actively fighting in the beam struggle alongside Goku, not getting instantly destroyed when they were fighting against Anilaza and were considered vital members helping Goku against Anilaza. Saying that they are actually just 1/infinite of SSB Goku and Anilaza's power, contributed literally nothing to the beam struggle and somehow just managed to help hold him back and survive the clash despite being infinitely weaker than Anilaza is just dumb.

We can't just scale Anilaza to Low 2-C without scaling the other U7 fighters who were holding him off. And what's with this backwards scaling of the feats from a current SSB Kaioken Goku to a SSB Goku from several episodes back?

 

[Peter1129]

Whatever I'm really not sure about Goku getting a power up from Anilaza without going past his limits. I'll leave it to the others to decide this. Also it's the feat from Episode 123 SSB Goku being able to roughly contend with Episode 123 Jiren that's being scaled to Episode 121 SSB Goku. Not Episode 123 SSBKK Goku being scaled to Episode 121 SSB Goku. Well it's on Ultra Instinct Omen's description that every time the user uses it they get a power up. So for Goku to not get a power up after using UIO is very unlikely.

 

[Ryukama]

Okay fine the feats of a current SSB are being backwards scaled to a previous SSB. Doesn't seem that much better. Also it doesn't appear like there's much that says SSB Goku got stronger after Kefla besides the likely zenkai boosts and him starting to fight stronger people, which the same can be said for this SSB fighting Jiren.

And no Goku improving his Ultra Instinct form doesn't immediately mean that every single form of his got stronger. The point is that if going there, there's very little proof that the SSB that fought Anilaza is vastly superior to the one that fought Kefla either.

 

[Peter1129]

Well since I'm not that good at arguing I'm just going to stop now. Let's just see which one people agree with. But I'm still pretty sure the SSB Goku that fought Jiren is still the same SSB Goku that fought Anilaza.

 

[The_Everlasting]

My only real concern with Aeyu' proposal is what would we even call the new key?

 

[Therefir]

https://youtu.be/WuhJMTrtSf4 I think Goku ssj blue is low 2-C after that power up.

@Peter1129 Is not the same, Goku clearly power up.

 

[Ryukama]

My only real concern with Aeyu' proposal is what would we even call the new key?

Aeyu? Aeyu didn't participate in this thread at all.

I think the new key could either be "Beyond Super Saiyan Blue", or "Unnamed New Form" (Not the prettiest title, but technically the most accurate and the one that people like Hermes are using for now)

 

[The_Everlasting]

Shit, autocorrect.

But I meant Goku's key.

 

[Ryukama]

I don't think this SSB Goku needs an entire key. Just rename the Low 2-C key "Tournament of Power Arc" and specifiy that Low 2-C is just in Ultra Instinct and this new SSB.

 

[Therefir]

Also, Goku should have his new skill with the Destructo Disc.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I do feel we should at least rename the first key, because "Various Transformations" sounds dumb.

 

[Peter1129]

How about Dragon Ball Super as the first key. And the other key can be Post-Anilaza or Episode 123 and on. Because it seems like everybody agrees that Goku got another power up from fighting Anilaza without reaching his limits.

 

[Bluetrekking]

Should there be a note on either the DB verse page or even Jiren or Goku's page as to why other characters don't scale to Low 2-C?

 

[The_Everlasting]

I suggested earlier for a key for Goku before he obtains SSJG, and then another for when he's 3-A.

 

[Peter1129]

So basically

Pre-BoG | BoG and on | Post-Anilaza/Episode 123 and on

 

[Ryukama]

First Key: Battle of Gods Saga to Future Trunks Saga/Prior to Tournament of Power

Second Key: Tournament of Power Saga

 

[Therefir]

@The Everlasting, @Peter1129, we created a profile for DBS Goku precisely to get rid of the key before he obtains SSJG.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Pre-Tournament of Power | Tournament of Power Arc

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

It should be especified however that SSJB Goku is only Low 2-C after the battle against Jiren.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I mean, Goku in general would be, and it would be after the battle with Kefla, and only had been used after that battle with Anilaza.

 

[Peter1129]

So was there another power up from fighting Anilaza or not?