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Goku vs. Broly
- Thread starter SuperKamiNappa
- Start date
- Status
- 386
- 15
Broly Mid-Diff.... I Highly doubt MUI is equal or greater than Gogeta blue
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Alright.
While watching the very first fight between Goku and suppressed Jiren, Whis stated that Jiren's power was on the level of a GoD, perhaps even beyond that. People typically argue that this doesn't mean he is above Beerus in that form; however, during in the events leading up to the ToP, Whis also stated that he doesn't know much about the other universes so it stands to reason that he was comparing him to Beerus (or Champa, I suppose) as that is his most immediate benchmark for what the power of a GoD is. From there, we have Jiren, having shown 'a hint of his true power' obviously being superior to his earlier suppressed state, 3rd Trigger UIO Goku being on par with that but below Jiren at full power. We then have MUI Goku instantly shown to be superior to that Jiren. After breaking his limits, Jiren briefly surpasses MUI Goku but the latter's adaptation proves to be too much and at that point, Goku's power is at a level where Jiren could scarcely do anything against him.
So: Beerus Ôëñ Jiren (Suppressed) < Jiren (hint of his true power) ~ 3rd Trigger UIO < Jiren (Full Power) < MUI (Initial) < Jiren (LB) < MUI (post-adaptation in combat)
People are often hesitant to consider the promotional material stating 3rd Trigger UIO surpassed Beerus but in-series statements and scaling point towards that Goku being even higher than said promotional material suggests.
Now, onto Broly. Clearly, the fighter we can most directly compare him to is Gogeta. We know that even base Gogeta far surpasses SSB Goku and Vegeta who are stronger than they were in those forms in the ToP. However, while they were working together to fight Jiren, they made extensive use of SSBE and SSBKKx20 and had the help of Android 17. Given that we don't have much of anything to suggest that they surpassed their respective superior transformations in SSB alone, it's safe to continue with them scaled well below the Jiren that had shown a hint of his true power. While Gogeta (Base) being far superior to the SSBs is already established, it'd clearly be a real low ball to have him only on par the SSBE and SSBKKx20 showcased in the ToP but given how severely outmatched the latter two (along with 17) were against Jiren (hint of his true power), the safest thing we can say is that they should be quite close. From there we have:
Gogeta (Base) < Broly (SSJ) < Gogeta (SSJ) < Broly (Full Power) < Gogeta (SSB).
With these scaling chains, we have Broly (Full Power) and Goku (peak MUI) being three and four degrees respectively above a common baseline via Gogeta (Base) and Jiren (hint of his true power) being determined to be comparable. MUI Goku likely has the AP advantage.
Now, let's look at their traits in combat. Both adapt extremely well in terms of speed and AP but Goku has the significant advantage in combat strategy as this occurs automatically while Broly is a raging beast. Jiren was temporarily capable of fully adapting to MUI Goku mostly with raw power and speed but it should be noted that Jiren is a much more intelligent fighter than Broly as shown when he effortlessly predicted Hit's location while the latter was spamming time skip. That gap in skill and intelligence will make it more difficult for Broly to put his growing speed and AP to good use while Goku is also progressively growing in the same areas.
This Goku is very serious in character and will go for the finishing blow as soon as it is possible and with instinctive reaction and adaptation in all facets of combat, Broly is screwed the second Goku has an AP advantage whether he starts with it or not and a point blank kamehameha is all that it'll take to seal the deal.
All in all, I say MUI Goku likely has the AP advantage and if he does, he takes this low diff. If Broly has the AP advantage, it's due to larger gaps between the points on the scaling chain and still shouldn't be so much that it approaches a one-shot gap so if it is the case that Broly starts out with the lead, MUI Goku should take it mid-diff.
While watching the very first fight between Goku and suppressed Jiren, Whis stated that Jiren's power was on the level of a GoD, perhaps even beyond that. People typically argue that this doesn't mean he is above Beerus in that form; however, during in the events leading up to the ToP, Whis also stated that he doesn't know much about the other universes so it stands to reason that he was comparing him to Beerus (or Champa, I suppose) as that is his most immediate benchmark for what the power of a GoD is. From there, we have Jiren, having shown 'a hint of his true power' obviously being superior to his earlier suppressed state, 3rd Trigger UIO Goku being on par with that but below Jiren at full power. We then have MUI Goku instantly shown to be superior to that Jiren. After breaking his limits, Jiren briefly surpasses MUI Goku but the latter's adaptation proves to be too much and at that point, Goku's power is at a level where Jiren could scarcely do anything against him.
So: Beerus Ôëñ Jiren (Suppressed) < Jiren (hint of his true power) ~ 3rd Trigger UIO < Jiren (Full Power) < MUI (Initial) < Jiren (LB) < MUI (post-adaptation in combat)
People are often hesitant to consider the promotional material stating 3rd Trigger UIO surpassed Beerus but in-series statements and scaling point towards that Goku being even higher than said promotional material suggests.
Now, onto Broly. Clearly, the fighter we can most directly compare him to is Gogeta. We know that even base Gogeta far surpasses SSB Goku and Vegeta who are stronger than they were in those forms in the ToP. However, while they were working together to fight Jiren, they made extensive use of SSBE and SSBKKx20 and had the help of Android 17. Given that we don't have much of anything to suggest that they surpassed their respective superior transformations in SSB alone, it's safe to continue with them scaled well below the Jiren that had shown a hint of his true power. While Gogeta (Base) being far superior to the SSBs is already established, it'd clearly be a real low ball to have him only on par the SSBE and SSBKKx20 showcased in the ToP but given how severely outmatched the latter two (along with 17) were against Jiren (hint of his true power), the safest thing we can say is that they should be quite close. From there we have:
Gogeta (Base) < Broly (SSJ) < Gogeta (SSJ) < Broly (Full Power) < Gogeta (SSB).
With these scaling chains, we have Broly (Full Power) and Goku (peak MUI) being three and four degrees respectively above a common baseline via Gogeta (Base) and Jiren (hint of his true power) being determined to be comparable. MUI Goku likely has the AP advantage.
Now, let's look at their traits in combat. Both adapt extremely well in terms of speed and AP but Goku has the significant advantage in combat strategy as this occurs automatically while Broly is a raging beast. Jiren was temporarily capable of fully adapting to MUI Goku mostly with raw power and speed but it should be noted that Jiren is a much more intelligent fighter than Broly as shown when he effortlessly predicted Hit's location while the latter was spamming time skip. That gap in skill and intelligence will make it more difficult for Broly to put his growing speed and AP to good use while Goku is also progressively growing in the same areas.
This Goku is very serious in character and will go for the finishing blow as soon as it is possible and with instinctive reaction and adaptation in all facets of combat, Broly is screwed the second Goku has an AP advantage whether he starts with it or not and a point blank kamehameha is all that it'll take to seal the deal.
All in all, I say MUI Goku likely has the AP advantage and if he does, he takes this low diff. If Broly has the AP advantage, it's due to larger gaps between the points on the scaling chain and still shouldn't be so much that it approaches a one-shot gap so if it is the case that Broly starts out with the lead, MUI Goku should take it mid-diff.
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Broly is stronger and faster than Goku, in DB "more power=more speed", Broly takes this
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- Thread starter
- #7
I mean, not alwaysLightinAnt said:
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Yeah but Broly's form doesn't have a stated speed handicap like third grade has
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I dispute Broly having an AP/speed advantage but even if he starts with one, so long as it isn't one-shot/speedblitz, it certainly doesn't give Broly an auto-win. We've seen MUI Goku adapt from getting blasted damn near unconscious only to immediately adapt and significantly surpass his opponent. This isn't the first time we've seen extreme in-fight adaptation swing the result either, remember Goku Black's insta-zenkai? DB fights are pretty simple but they're not that simple, starting with the AP advantage doesn't guarantee the win especially when the presumably weaker character has combat precog paired with instinctive reaction, can teleport, and has the overall best in-combat adaptation in the series.
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Even if Goku had the AP advantage (which I kind of doubt), Broly will adapt and grow to be his equal and then stronger than him, in like seconds, as shown with his fight in the movie.
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No MUI ends in like a minute, if Broly has the Ap advantage which he likely does then he is just getting stronger and stronger
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I'm giving this to MUI Goku. Broly is an incredibly fast learner but MUI Goku is essentially the absolute peak of Goku's skills as a martial artist. SSG Goku was managing to dance around Wrathful Broly. So MUI Goku who is unquantifably superior to SSG Goku with vastly superior martial arts would defeat FPSS Broly in my mind. Of course, we need to scale Broly properly but it's difficult to do so.
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Goku fra.
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Well if we use all the sources we could find on Broly and the movie than SS1 Broly is at the very least comparable to GoDs who should be comparable to Beerus who is weaker than or equal to the Third UIS because he completely curbstomped Broly Saga Goku who was stated to be near the lvl of the Gods. And LSS1 Broly would at least be stronger than Limit Break Jiren since he has he statement of being the new strongest foe Goku has faced. However this is just a low ball.
The light novel also had Frieza saying SS1 Broly is the strongest foe he has ever faced or something along the lines of that which would make SS1 Broly > Limit Break Jiren since Jiren doesn't use god ki so Frieza should be able to sense him. This would therefore make LSS1 Broly far stronger than Limit Break Jiren who was somewhat comparable to UI Goku.
So it's either Broly barely wins against UI Goku with the low ball scaling via his reactive power level or he completely curbstomps via the mid ball scaling.
The light novel also had Frieza saying SS1 Broly is the strongest foe he has ever faced or something along the lines of that which would make SS1 Broly > Limit Break Jiren since Jiren doesn't use god ki so Frieza should be able to sense him. This would therefore make LSS1 Broly far stronger than Limit Break Jiren who was somewhat comparable to UI Goku.
So it's either Broly barely wins against UI Goku with the low ball scaling via his reactive power level or he completely curbstomps via the mid ball scaling.
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Broly fra
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Goku fra.
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Broly will win
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Broly likely has the AP advantage if we go by SSB Goku being near UIO 3rd level because of statements. Not to mention if we go by the Novel it is likely a stomp in AP & Broly will have no problem defeating UI Goku... Or at least tanking his blows until UI wears off.
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Well i was just kidding about Broly would win I think the fight might be a draw between the two at their full power
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Broly wins
While I don't think Broly will be able to hit MUI, MUI won't be able to put down Broly. MUI Goku in the manga couldn't put down Jiren and in the anime, he barely won in the end but ran out of time. Broly has a good history of fighitng stronger opponents and winning due to his rising power.
SSJ Vegeta was stronger then Base Broly, he caught up and won
Base vegeta was stronger, Broly caught up and was overpowering
SSJG Goku was beating Rage Broly, he powered up and rekt him
SSJ Gogeta was beating SSJ Broly, Broly powered up to FP SSJ and tank SSJ Gogeta and wrecked him\
Being stronger then Broly isn't enough to grant you the victory, and UI doesn't have enough power to win before he times runs out or before Broly gets another power up, and if Broly can get a power up against SSJB Gogeta, then he is easily going to get 1 or 2 power up against MUI Goku no problem, and GG for MUI cause he will be hitting a brick wall at that point.
While I don't think Broly will be able to hit MUI, MUI won't be able to put down Broly. MUI Goku in the manga couldn't put down Jiren and in the anime, he barely won in the end but ran out of time. Broly has a good history of fighitng stronger opponents and winning due to his rising power.
SSJ Vegeta was stronger then Base Broly, he caught up and won
Base vegeta was stronger, Broly caught up and was overpowering
SSJG Goku was beating Rage Broly, he powered up and rekt him
SSJ Gogeta was beating SSJ Broly, Broly powered up to FP SSJ and tank SSJ Gogeta and wrecked him\
Being stronger then Broly isn't enough to grant you the victory, and UI doesn't have enough power to win before he times runs out or before Broly gets another power up, and if Broly can get a power up against SSJB Gogeta, then he is easily going to get 1 or 2 power up against MUI Goku no problem, and GG for MUI cause he will be hitting a brick wall at that point.
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I've already outlined why I give MUI Goku the AP advantage but even if Broly starts with one, it doesn't swing the fight in his favor because: unlike zenkai for example which requires Goku to take damage, adaptation in all forms if UI occurs automatically and constantly, Broly is going to struggle to land hits on Goku and the ones he does land will be of lesser impact due to them being deflected or crashing into him while he's on guard, missing strikes will constantly leave him open for attacks which will be very high impact because of Broly's inability to defend as well as the fact that this Goku goes for the win as soon as possible.
This makes any AP advantage Goku has, at any point, much more significant than a similar AP advantage would be for Broly.
When compared to someone like Jiren, Broly is quite sloppy and impulsive in combat which only means more openings for Goku to land powerful attacks.
While Broly's adaptation is limited to AP and speed, Goku's includes that along with all other facets of combat, optimally utilized at that.
The time constraints of MUI have been raised as a potential factor working against Goku but given: the absurd speeds that these characters fight at and the fact at full power Broly was losing stamina much more quickly, it really shouldn't be an issue. Especially because, as I'll reiterate, this Goku goes for the win as soon as possible.
This makes any AP advantage Goku has, at any point, much more significant than a similar AP advantage would be for Broly.
When compared to someone like Jiren, Broly is quite sloppy and impulsive in combat which only means more openings for Goku to land powerful attacks.
While Broly's adaptation is limited to AP and speed, Goku's includes that along with all other facets of combat, optimally utilized at that.
The time constraints of MUI have been raised as a potential factor working against Goku but given: the absurd speeds that these characters fight at and the fact at full power Broly was losing stamina much more quickly, it really shouldn't be an issue. Especially because, as I'll reiterate, this Goku goes for the win as soon as possible.
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Nah well guess vote Broly for FRA.
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More like Toppo (Broly) vs Frieza (Goku)JackJoyce said:
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Well that's a good point you got there but remember he get stronger when he fights but as i said it might be a drawEndless Astrograph Sorcerer said:
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n o UJackJoyce said:
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You forgot one thing, how much of a tank Broly is + the fact MUI couldn't put Jiren down depsite hitting him with nearly everything.Endless Astrograph Sorcerer said:
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Yeeeeah...Jiren could barely move and admitted defeat. Should Goku have wanted to, he could've easily killed him instead of having a conversation.
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Oh the anime, the one with the power of friend ship ? Barely overpowered him in the end with his Kamehameha and he ran out of time and Jiren kept on fighitng, Broly took bigger and more attacks and never fell to his knees (many punches and kicks, soul punisher, barrage of Ki blast, combo attacks and even that attack where Gogeta crossed his hands and still stayed on his feet) MUI ain't putting down Broly, and Broly will just power up and become a brick wall for GokuKLOL506 said:
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Yes, he ran out of time because he chose to have a conversation with Jiren instead of just knocking him out of the arena. SBA dictates that this sort of thing can't happen in a battle.
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This Broly took a punch straight from SSJ Gogeta without taking any damage.
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Assuming this is Tournament of Power Jiren & Broly Movie Broly... No zenkais assumed for Broly Post Movie :
Goku's SSB / SSB Kaio-Ken x 20 was hinted to be near UIO 3rd Level going by the statements. UIO 3rd or MUIis assumed because those were only transformations confirmed to have been near the level of the Gods according to the guides... And we assume regular SSB over SSB Kaio-Ken considering the other form isn't used in the Broly Movie (likely due to time constraints) . We use UIO 3rd as it is the only one offically on the level of the Gods of Destruction considering UIO 1st wasn't anywhere near their level considering they only really responded to UIO 3rd and Jiren stating to be on the level of GoD was only after he got Full Power . Therefore:
Ikari Broly <= Broly Movie SSB Goku (Both were portrayed as comparable to each other... Neither side gaining a real advantage in their struggle) << UIO 3rd <= Jiren (Full Power) [ Meaning the difference between Jiren & Goku is enough that Jiren would likely go over 80%-85% of his Full Power to defeat Current SSB Goku... This is before Limit Breaker BTW ]
SSJ Broly >>> SSB Goku & Vegeta (Their duel Kamehameha did nothing to him and smacked it aside as if it were nothing . They also stated nothing but fusion would work . This would mean he's already closing in on Jiren's Full Power ...)
Base Gogeta was wrecking SSJ Broly until he got his increases in and then was stalemating him the entire way through. Broly then turned LSSJ ... Which if they were equal and we assume that the LSSJ power increase is greater than Ikari... He was definitely at least the equivalent of SSG Gogeta at least. Likely even significantly stronger considering he decided to go regular Blue.
So... SSB Gogeta >>> LSSJ Broly (The difference was not enough to say a oneshot, but Gogeta did have quite a deals advantage) >>>> SSJ Broly >= SSJ Gogeta >>> Base >>> SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta >= Ikari Broly (They were seemingly equal) ... UIO 3rd would be in between SSB Goku and Base Gogeta .
I would say if we by this AP wise Enraged MUI Goku and Limit Breaker Jiren would be between SSJ Gogeta & Base Gogeta. It's likely a stomp AP wise .
Goku's SSB / SSB Kaio-Ken x 20 was hinted to be near UIO 3rd Level going by the statements. UIO 3rd or MUIis assumed because those were only transformations confirmed to have been near the level of the Gods according to the guides... And we assume regular SSB over SSB Kaio-Ken considering the other form isn't used in the Broly Movie (likely due to time constraints) . We use UIO 3rd as it is the only one offically on the level of the Gods of Destruction considering UIO 1st wasn't anywhere near their level considering they only really responded to UIO 3rd and Jiren stating to be on the level of GoD was only after he got Full Power . Therefore:
Ikari Broly <= Broly Movie SSB Goku (Both were portrayed as comparable to each other... Neither side gaining a real advantage in their struggle) << UIO 3rd <= Jiren (Full Power) [ Meaning the difference between Jiren & Goku is enough that Jiren would likely go over 80%-85% of his Full Power to defeat Current SSB Goku... This is before Limit Breaker BTW ]
SSJ Broly >>> SSB Goku & Vegeta (Their duel Kamehameha did nothing to him and smacked it aside as if it were nothing . They also stated nothing but fusion would work . This would mean he's already closing in on Jiren's Full Power ...)
Base Gogeta was wrecking SSJ Broly until he got his increases in and then was stalemating him the entire way through. Broly then turned LSSJ ... Which if they were equal and we assume that the LSSJ power increase is greater than Ikari... He was definitely at least the equivalent of SSG Gogeta at least. Likely even significantly stronger considering he decided to go regular Blue.
So... SSB Gogeta >>> LSSJ Broly (The difference was not enough to say a oneshot, but Gogeta did have quite a deals advantage) >>>> SSJ Broly >= SSJ Gogeta >>> Base >>> SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta >= Ikari Broly (They were seemingly equal) ... UIO 3rd would be in between SSB Goku and Base Gogeta .
I would say if we by this AP wise Enraged MUI Goku and Limit Breaker Jiren would be between SSJ Gogeta & Base Gogeta. It's likely a stomp AP wise .
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