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Goku vs Vegeta (Redux)
- Thread starter MrLuk2000
- Start date
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https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2663458?useskin=oasis If you're talking about the Broly saga versions, then this has already happened. If you're talking about the TOP versions, since they're pretty much equal in stats, I'd vote Goku because he's usually the more skilled of the two and has a larger arsenal (mines, solar flare, hex destructo disk, etc)
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I don't know if Goku is definitively more skilled, especially since Vegeta has gotten more training time with Whis than he has.Dragomer said:
That and Vegeta's rage can make him immensely more powerful and is something we've rarely seen come forth from his rival. He literally bodied Beerus in SSJ2 with pure anger.
So not too sure that we can know who will win, it's really dependant on who Toriyama wants to win in the end. Inconclusive.
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- Thread starter
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This was done before, but it got removed: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1370005
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Vegeta' rage buffs aren't in-character. He did it once and never replicated it. On top of that, that happened when he was under a set of conditions that he isn't here.
He trained more with Whis, but Goku has been training his whole life through different masters while Whis is Vegeta's first formal master.
Anyway, Goku outskills and wins with his slight but meaningful versatility advantage.
He trained more with Whis, but Goku has been training his whole life through different masters while Whis is Vegeta's first formal master.
Anyway, Goku outskills and wins with his slight but meaningful versatility advantage.
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The rage buffs are in-character, not sure what you mean? He did it to the androids, Cell, Buu and Beerus. It was not a one off outlier.
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It's in character burst in rage, not increase his power. Otherwise he'd have destroyed them with no effort. Or are you implying that the difference between Vegeta and his opponents at that time was higher than the difference between him and Beerus?
Increasing the power via rage it's Gohan's trick.
Increasing the power via rage it's Gohan's trick.
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Goku wins and I'll explain later.
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Vegeta's best feat of rage Boosting is from fighting Beerus as Ssj2 after Beerus slapped his wife. He wouldn't get close to that point in a normal fight.
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@Calaca Vs
His blind saiyan rage increases his power greatly and this is shown consistently. Another feat is of him getting pissed off at Jiren (RAGE ACTIVATE) and then punching him in the side so hard Jiren literally gags and coughs out spit, despite him being strong and fast enough to treat Vegeta as a complete joke literally 10 seconds ago.
Regardless of whether or not the gap of power that he can bridge is consistent, we do know Vegeta fights opponents weaker than him, gets pissed off and can then completely overwhelm them when previously he could not.
His blind saiyan rage increases his power greatly and this is shown consistently. Another feat is of him getting pissed off at Jiren (RAGE ACTIVATE) and then punching him in the side so hard Jiren literally gags and coughs out spit, despite him being strong and fast enough to treat Vegeta as a complete joke literally 10 seconds ago.
Regardless of whether or not the gap of power that he can bridge is consistent, we do know Vegeta fights opponents weaker than him, gets pissed off and can then completely overwhelm them when previously he could not.
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Said boosts aren't consistent nor extensive so Vegeta can't rely on that even if Kakarot is his opponent.
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> "aren't consistent"
> uses it against almost every major villain
> uses it against almost every major villain
ApiesDeathbyLazors
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Inconclusive FRA
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So here's the thing, post ToP Goku should without a doubt be stronger. He had 3 limit Breaks while Vegeta had one. Moving to the Broly movie, Goku is able to fight Broly in base and ssj but unable to harm Broly. The only reason why Goku held his own was because of three reasons.
First, he was watching how Broly fights. Second, Broly doesn't know martial arts and Goku has superior skill. Lastly Goku is actually a generally fast character, something that was pointed out in the Ginyu saga where Ginyu said Goku's body was faster but weaker than his. So Goku keeping up with Broly isn't too far fetched. Goku then transforms into his ssg form because his previous forms weren't working.
Here's where a start to actually explain my point. Broly literally had to change in size to stomp ssg Goku. Goku even tanked a punch from Broly before he grew taller so ssg Goku should be around Blue level. It also consistent with WoG and the last limit break. It's also not as absurd as saying base Goku is stronger than ssg.
My vote Goes to Goku.
First, he was watching how Broly fights. Second, Broly doesn't know martial arts and Goku has superior skill. Lastly Goku is actually a generally fast character, something that was pointed out in the Ginyu saga where Ginyu said Goku's body was faster but weaker than his. So Goku keeping up with Broly isn't too far fetched. Goku then transforms into his ssg form because his previous forms weren't working.
Here's where a start to actually explain my point. Broly literally had to change in size to stomp ssg Goku. Goku even tanked a punch from Broly before he grew taller so ssg Goku should be around Blue level. It also consistent with WoG and the last limit break. It's also not as absurd as saying base Goku is stronger than ssg.
My vote Goes to Goku.
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Goku is the superior fighter but I might have to go with Vegeta.
SSBE is stated to be equivalent to SSBKK by Nagamine (the DBS anime director) but the scenes of SSBE fighting on the same level of SSBKK was before Vegeta grew stronger via anger boosting against Toppo. Meaning that SSBE ToP Vegeta > SSBKKX20 ToP Goku.
Vegeta also has Final Flash (which is much stronger than Kamehameha in raw power) and can survive using Final Explosion (which was powerful enough to nearly vaporize every bit of Buu...when Buu is around the level of SS3 Goku) so I am pretty sure SSBE Vegeta using Final Explosion would outright kill SSBKKX20 Goku.
SSBE is stated to be equivalent to SSBKK by Nagamine (the DBS anime director) but the scenes of SSBE fighting on the same level of SSBKK was before Vegeta grew stronger via anger boosting against Toppo. Meaning that SSBE ToP Vegeta > SSBKKX20 ToP Goku.
Vegeta also has Final Flash (which is much stronger than Kamehameha in raw power) and can survive using Final Explosion (which was powerful enough to nearly vaporize every bit of Buu...when Buu is around the level of SS3 Goku) so I am pretty sure SSBE Vegeta using Final Explosion would outright kill SSBKKX20 Goku.
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> ignores my comment
ok
ok
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Nagamine stating directly they are equivalent take precedence over a perception of Vegeta doing better afterward, they are the same and were meant to be the same, meaning SSJBE = SSJBKK Goku.CryoTheMayo said:
Nothing say Final Flash is stronger than Kamehameha, Kamehameha basicaly has as much power as Goku can put into it, also Goku has the kienzan hexa blade, which is harder to dodge, homing, faster to use and would be a guaranteed insta kill in this fight if it lands
The Final Atonement was far from enough to kill Buu, at no point it is portrayed as if it could have ended Buu and if the final atonement wasn't enough to kill Toppo, i doubt it would kill Goku, and once again, Goku can achieve the same result as the final explosion with an IT full power point blank Kamehameha or the Kienzan hexa blade, both are much easier to use and are way easier to land than either the final explosion or the final flash.
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Drago is mostly correct. Also even if we take that apparent powerup Vegeta gained against Toppo, Goku still has the two limit breaks from UIO3 and MUI so they are comparable or Goku holds the advantage with his limit breaks.
I don't remember if it was anime-only but Buu regenerated from many pieces after Vegeta exploded. On top of that, Buu is Likely a glass cannon considering that almost anything can blow him so I wouldn't use him as am argument.
I don't remember if it was anime-only but Buu regenerated from many pieces after Vegeta exploded. On top of that, Buu is Likely a glass cannon considering that almost anything can blow him so I wouldn't use him as am argument.
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"Nagamine stating directly they are equivalent take precedence over a perception of Vegeta doing better afterward, they are the same and were meant to be the same, meaning SSJBE = SSJBKK Goku."
Pretty sure it's explicitly stated that Vegeta was growing stronger after Toppo angered him.
"Nothing say Final Flash is stronger than Kamehameha, Kamehameha basicaly has as much power as Goku can put into it, also Goku has the kienzan hexa blade, which is harder to dodge, homing, faster to use and would be a guaranteed insta kill in this fight if it lands"
Other than Vegeta's first use of Final Flash being powerful enough to scare Cell (whereas the Super Kamehameha was never a threat until a vastly more powerful SS Goku and SS2 Gohan used it) and Vegeta's Galick Gun matching the Kamehameha consistently.
I also don't see what's stopping Vegeta from just exploding his ki to destroy the Kienzan discs. Hell he could just power up into Final Explosion when he sees Goku use it and vaporise them.
"The Final Atonement was far from enough to kill Buu, at no point it is portrayed as if it could have ended Buu and if the final atonement wasn't enough to kill Toppo, i doubt it would kill Goku, and once again, Goku can achieve the same result as the final explosion with an IT full power point blank Kamehameha or the Kienzan hexa blade, both are much easier to use and are way easier to land than either the final explosion or the final flash."
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh did we see the same thing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xmj222zMeI
You can clearly see that Buu is torn apart and slowly regenerated. Piccolo even claims 'they were blown to a thousand pieces'. Goku isn't going to recover from Vegeta's Final Explosion by any stretch of the imagination when Vegeta can kill anyone multiple times his power with Final Explosion.
You also don't know know how powerful Toppo even is. He had to hold back constantly to not kill anyone so it's reasonable to claim that he is much stronger than Vegeta without a no-kill rule to limit him (unless you want to imply 17 is as fast as SSBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo, KKX20 Goku and a less suppressed Jiren?).
Pretty sure it's explicitly stated that Vegeta was growing stronger after Toppo angered him.
"Nothing say Final Flash is stronger than Kamehameha, Kamehameha basicaly has as much power as Goku can put into it, also Goku has the kienzan hexa blade, which is harder to dodge, homing, faster to use and would be a guaranteed insta kill in this fight if it lands"
Other than Vegeta's first use of Final Flash being powerful enough to scare Cell (whereas the Super Kamehameha was never a threat until a vastly more powerful SS Goku and SS2 Gohan used it) and Vegeta's Galick Gun matching the Kamehameha consistently.
I also don't see what's stopping Vegeta from just exploding his ki to destroy the Kienzan discs. Hell he could just power up into Final Explosion when he sees Goku use it and vaporise them.
"The Final Atonement was far from enough to kill Buu, at no point it is portrayed as if it could have ended Buu and if the final atonement wasn't enough to kill Toppo, i doubt it would kill Goku, and once again, Goku can achieve the same result as the final explosion with an IT full power point blank Kamehameha or the Kienzan hexa blade, both are much easier to use and are way easier to land than either the final explosion or the final flash."
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh did we see the same thing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xmj222zMeI
You can clearly see that Buu is torn apart and slowly regenerated. Piccolo even claims 'they were blown to a thousand pieces'. Goku isn't going to recover from Vegeta's Final Explosion by any stretch of the imagination when Vegeta can kill anyone multiple times his power with Final Explosion.
You also don't know know how powerful Toppo even is. He had to hold back constantly to not kill anyone so it's reasonable to claim that he is much stronger than Vegeta without a no-kill rule to limit him (unless you want to imply 17 is as fast as SSBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo, KKX20 Goku and a less suppressed Jiren?).
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I'm also not taking this as Post-ToP because...why in the world would I? Post-ToP Goku and Vegeta have never used the Kaio-Ken or SSBE outside of manga Vegeta using SSBE once so far and I imagine this is for the anime.
The only time Goku would have surpassed Vegeta is with the UIO3 limit break and Goku never used KK during or after that so I am forced to believe this is ToP SSBKK and SSBE.
The only time Goku would have surpassed Vegeta is with the UIO3 limit break and Goku never used KK during or after that so I am forced to believe this is ToP SSBKK and SSBE.
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Imma go for Vegeta fra
His amplified attacks like the Final Flash and Galick Gun are much higher than that of the Kamehamha. I'm not sure he would need Final Atonement at that point.
Goku does have Instant Transmission, the Solar Flare and the Destructo Disk however that may not work since Morals are on and that probably just makes this an all out sparring contest.
His amplified attacks like the Final Flash and Galick Gun are much higher than that of the Kamehamha. I'm not sure he would need Final Atonement at that point.
Goku does have Instant Transmission, the Solar Flare and the Destructo Disk however that may not work since Morals are on and that probably just makes this an all out sparring contest.
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Except that Goku can control how strong his Kamehameha is at will. It doesn't have a set output, in fact the Kamehameha has matched and had an equal output with both the Galick Gun and Final Flash before. And how do morals affect whether Goku will use IT, Solar Flare or Destructo Disk?AwkguyDB said:
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Going with Vegeta FRA.
I would have to assume this is ToP versions because these forms have never appeared afterward.
I would have to assume this is ToP versions because these forms have never appeared afterward.
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@Cryo
Other than Vegeta's first use of Final Flash being powerful enough to scare Cell (whereas the Super Kamehameha was never a threat until a vastly more powerful SS Goku and SS2 Gohan used it) and Vegeta's Galick Gun matching the Kamehameha consistently.
Um, Cell never fought anyone who knew the Kamehameha until the Cell Games. In fact all of his data on Goku comes from the Saiyan Saga. Also did you forget the Super Kamehameha is literally just the Kamehameha with more power put into it, rendering this whole point moot?
I also don't see what's stopping Vegeta from just exploding his ki to destroy the Kienzan discs. Hell he could just power up into Final Explosion when he sees Goku use it and vaporise them.
Implying he would spam it like that in the 1st place or immediately use it.
You also don't know know how powerful Toppo even is. He had to hold back constantly to not kill anyone so it's reasonable to claim that he is much stronger than Vegeta without a no-kill rule to limit him (unless you want to imply 17 is as fast as SSBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo, KKX20 Goku and a less suppressed Jiren?).
Toppo had to hold back as in not use Hakai to immediately kill them.
Goku via ingenuity in a fight, and overall more martial skill along with versatility.
Other than Vegeta's first use of Final Flash being powerful enough to scare Cell (whereas the Super Kamehameha was never a threat until a vastly more powerful SS Goku and SS2 Gohan used it) and Vegeta's Galick Gun matching the Kamehameha consistently.
Um, Cell never fought anyone who knew the Kamehameha until the Cell Games. In fact all of his data on Goku comes from the Saiyan Saga. Also did you forget the Super Kamehameha is literally just the Kamehameha with more power put into it, rendering this whole point moot?
I also don't see what's stopping Vegeta from just exploding his ki to destroy the Kienzan discs. Hell he could just power up into Final Explosion when he sees Goku use it and vaporise them.
Implying he would spam it like that in the 1st place or immediately use it.
You also don't know know how powerful Toppo even is. He had to hold back constantly to not kill anyone so it's reasonable to claim that he is much stronger than Vegeta without a no-kill rule to limit him (unless you want to imply 17 is as fast as SSBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo, KKX20 Goku and a less suppressed Jiren?).
Toppo had to hold back as in not use Hakai to immediately kill them.
Goku via ingenuity in a fight, and overall more martial skill along with versatility.
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Hst Master
"Um, Cell never fought anyone who knew the Kamehameha until the Cell Games. In fact all of his data on Goku comes from the Saiyan Saga. Also did you forget the Super Kamehameha is literally just the Kamehameha with more power put into it, rendering this whole point moot?"
I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. Goku has had the Kamehameha since he first met Master Roshi. The Super Kamehameha, yes, is the Kamehameha with more power pumped in but it's also far more draining to use.
I also don't seem to recall the Kamehameha ever being treated with the level of respect or fear that the Final Flash has. Belmod was literally leaping out of his seat screaming over how ridiculous Vegeta's power was with the Final Flash against Jiren. Even outright stating that he can't believe that 'this is a Saiyan's power!' (or something close to that) when he had seen UIO Goku and Kefla beforehand.
Cell was genuinely astounded by the sheer level of force behind the Final Flash and genuinely believed he could have died to it. A far more powerful Goku using a Warp Kamehameha could only achieve a similar feat against the same Cell.
"Implying he would spam it like that in the 1st place or immediately use it."
If Goku uses the Kienzan (something that Vegeta has known the danger of since the Saiyan saga) and Vegeta had no other method of dealing with it...then yes, Vegeta would absolutely use Final Explosion.
"Toppo had to hold back as in not use Hakai to immediately kill them."
Yeah, nobody is denying this. What argument are you making? That Toppo can restrain the power of his Hakais (which is fueled by destruction energy which fuels a GoD) but at the same time not his power? (even though they use the same energy source, destruction energy)
"Um, Cell never fought anyone who knew the Kamehameha until the Cell Games. In fact all of his data on Goku comes from the Saiyan Saga. Also did you forget the Super Kamehameha is literally just the Kamehameha with more power put into it, rendering this whole point moot?"
I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. Goku has had the Kamehameha since he first met Master Roshi. The Super Kamehameha, yes, is the Kamehameha with more power pumped in but it's also far more draining to use.
I also don't seem to recall the Kamehameha ever being treated with the level of respect or fear that the Final Flash has. Belmod was literally leaping out of his seat screaming over how ridiculous Vegeta's power was with the Final Flash against Jiren. Even outright stating that he can't believe that 'this is a Saiyan's power!' (or something close to that) when he had seen UIO Goku and Kefla beforehand.
Cell was genuinely astounded by the sheer level of force behind the Final Flash and genuinely believed he could have died to it. A far more powerful Goku using a Warp Kamehameha could only achieve a similar feat against the same Cell.
"Implying he would spam it like that in the 1st place or immediately use it."
If Goku uses the Kienzan (something that Vegeta has known the danger of since the Saiyan saga) and Vegeta had no other method of dealing with it...then yes, Vegeta would absolutely use Final Explosion.
"Toppo had to hold back as in not use Hakai to immediately kill them."
Yeah, nobody is denying this. What argument are you making? That Toppo can restrain the power of his Hakais (which is fueled by destruction energy which fuels a GoD) but at the same time not his power? (even though they use the same energy source, destruction energy)
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"Um, Cell never fought anyone who knew the Kamehameha until the Cell Games. In fact all of his data on Goku comes from the Saiyan Saga. Also did you forget the Super Kamehameha is literally just the Kamehameha with more power put into it, rendering this whole point moot?"CryoTheMayo said:
I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. Goku has had the Kamehameha since he first met Master Roshi. The Super Kamehameha, yes, is the Kamehameha with more power pumped in but it's also far more draining to use.
I also don't seem to recall the Kamehameha ever being treated with the level of respect or fear that the Final Flash has. Belmod was literally leaping out of his seat screaming over how ridiculous Vegeta's power was with the Final Flash against Jiren. Even outright stating that he can't believe that 'this is a Saiyan's power!' (or something close to that) when he had seen UIO Goku and Kefla beforehand.
Cell was genuinely astounded by the sheer level of force behind the Final Flash and genuinely believed he could have died to it. A far more powerful Goku using a Warp Kamehameha could only achieve a similar feat against the same Cell.
"Implying he would spam it like that in the 1st place or immediately use it."
If Goku uses the Kienzan (something that Vegeta has known the danger of since the Saiyan saga) and Vegeta had no other method of dealing with it...then yes, Vegeta would absolutely use Final Explosion.
"Toppo had to hold back as in not use Hakai to immediately kill them."
Yeah, nobody is denying this. What argument are you making? That Toppo can restrain the power of his Hakais (which is fueled by destruction energy which fuels a GoD) but at the same time not his power? (even though they use the same energy source, destruction energy)
Belmod statement as Vegeta was charging up the Final Flash
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I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. Goku has had the Kamehameha since he first met Master Roshi. The Super Kamehameha, yes, is the Kamehameha with more power pumped in but it's also far more draining to use.
I also don't seem to recall the Kamehameha ever being treated with the level of respect or fear that the Final Flash has. Belmod was literally leaping out of his seat screaming over how ridiculous Vegeta's power was with the Final Flash against Jiren. Even outright stating that he can't believe that 'this is a Saiyan's power!' (or something close to that) when he had seen UIO Goku and Kefla beforehand.
And did you just forget when Goku and Vegeta used Final Flash and Kamehameha respectively to wipe out Universe 9 equally even though Kamehameha is supposedly weaker? Or the fact Vegeta was spamming it against people like Ketopelsa and even more than the Galick Gun? And also Goku rarely shows any sign tiring when he uses the Kamehameha, it's his go-to move. Suggesting putting more power into it tires him is faulty. The point is you're trying to say Kamehameha = Galick Gun even though unlike Vegeta, Goku only has to put more power into it to make it stronger it doesn't have a set output which your argument that Goku will somehow be unable to counter Final Flash moot.
Also you're taking that scene out of context. It wasn't the Final Flash itself, it was Vegeta getting stronger overall after getting his pride shot at for the 99th time.
If Goku uses the Kienzan (something that Vegeta has known the danger of since the Saiyan saga) and Vegeta had no other method of dealing with it...then yes, Vegeta would absolutely use Final Explosion.
And did you forget that it still drains Vegeta enough to put him in base? In no way is he spamming it.
Yeah, nobody is denying this. What argument are you making? That Toppo can restrain the power of his Hakais (which is fueled by destruction energy which fuels a GoD) but at the same time not his power? (even though they use the same energy source, destruction energy)
I'm saying that Vegeta didn't somehow beat a Toppo who was holding back power wise. He was holding back in the sense he couldn't use hakai on them. And even then that was in context to frieza. In fact they had a whole philosophical struggle abput toppo throwing away his pride to get stronger.
I also don't seem to recall the Kamehameha ever being treated with the level of respect or fear that the Final Flash has. Belmod was literally leaping out of his seat screaming over how ridiculous Vegeta's power was with the Final Flash against Jiren. Even outright stating that he can't believe that 'this is a Saiyan's power!' (or something close to that) when he had seen UIO Goku and Kefla beforehand.
And did you just forget when Goku and Vegeta used Final Flash and Kamehameha respectively to wipe out Universe 9 equally even though Kamehameha is supposedly weaker? Or the fact Vegeta was spamming it against people like Ketopelsa and even more than the Galick Gun? And also Goku rarely shows any sign tiring when he uses the Kamehameha, it's his go-to move. Suggesting putting more power into it tires him is faulty. The point is you're trying to say Kamehameha = Galick Gun even though unlike Vegeta, Goku only has to put more power into it to make it stronger it doesn't have a set output which your argument that Goku will somehow be unable to counter Final Flash moot.
Also you're taking that scene out of context. It wasn't the Final Flash itself, it was Vegeta getting stronger overall after getting his pride shot at for the 99th time.
If Goku uses the Kienzan (something that Vegeta has known the danger of since the Saiyan saga) and Vegeta had no other method of dealing with it...then yes, Vegeta would absolutely use Final Explosion.
And did you forget that it still drains Vegeta enough to put him in base? In no way is he spamming it.
Yeah, nobody is denying this. What argument are you making? That Toppo can restrain the power of his Hakais (which is fueled by destruction energy which fuels a GoD) but at the same time not his power? (even though they use the same energy source, destruction energy)
I'm saying that Vegeta didn't somehow beat a Toppo who was holding back power wise. He was holding back in the sense he couldn't use hakai on them. And even then that was in context to frieza. In fact they had a whole philosophical struggle abput toppo throwing away his pride to get stronger.
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"And did you just forget when Goku and Vegeta used Final Flash and Kamehameha respectively to wipe out Universe 9 equally even though Kamehameha is supposedly weaker? Or the fact Vegeta was spamming it against people like Ketopelsa and even more than the Galick Gun? And also Goku rarely shows any sign tiring when he uses the Kamehameha, it's his go-to move. Suggesting putting more power into it tires him is faulty. The point is you're trying to say Kamehameha = Galick Gun even though unlike Vegeta, Goku only has to put more power into it to make it stronger it doesn't have a set output which your argument that Goku will somehow be unable to counter Final Flash moot."
Kamehameha + Final Flash = Final Kamehameha which is logically always going to be stronger than Final Flash by itself. What argument is being made here?
Him spamming it isn't an argument (especially when he used it in Super Saiyan and Katopesla was 300x stronger than his base).
It definitely isn't faulty to claim that putting more power into something would drain more. Are you implying that it's not exhausting to amplify a technique with more energy rather than less?
Galick Gun has always been depicted as matching the Kamehameha in raw power. Never not been the case and the Final Flash is objectively more powerful to the Galick Gun. You haven't made any points disproving this or even contesting it.
"Also you're taking that scene out of context. It wasn't the Final Flash itself, it was Vegeta getting stronger overall after getting his pride shot at for the 99th time."
No I'm not. Vegeta is literally depicted as observing Jiren's movements and discovering an opening to attack Jiren. He is never mentioned as 'getting stronger'.
"And did you forget that it still drains Vegeta enough to put him in base? In no way is he spamming it."
Where am I claiming this? All I have said is that Vegeta would respond with Final Explosion if Goku uses sure-kill moves. Also Vegeta entered SSBE literally less than a minute after using Final Explosion so...
"I'm saying that Vegeta didn't somehow beat a Toppo who was holding back power wise. He was holding back in the sense he couldn't use hakai on them. And even then that was in context to frieza. In fact they had a whole philosophical struggle abput toppo throwing away his pride to get stronger."
Still not getting what point you are reaching at here. Are you saying Toppo wasn't holding back even though he was holding back the energy source powering his God of Destruction abilities which is the very thing that made him more powerful? How does this make sense?
Kamehameha + Final Flash = Final Kamehameha which is logically always going to be stronger than Final Flash by itself. What argument is being made here?
Him spamming it isn't an argument (especially when he used it in Super Saiyan and Katopesla was 300x stronger than his base).
It definitely isn't faulty to claim that putting more power into something would drain more. Are you implying that it's not exhausting to amplify a technique with more energy rather than less?
Galick Gun has always been depicted as matching the Kamehameha in raw power. Never not been the case and the Final Flash is objectively more powerful to the Galick Gun. You haven't made any points disproving this or even contesting it.
"Also you're taking that scene out of context. It wasn't the Final Flash itself, it was Vegeta getting stronger overall after getting his pride shot at for the 99th time."
No I'm not. Vegeta is literally depicted as observing Jiren's movements and discovering an opening to attack Jiren. He is never mentioned as 'getting stronger'.
"And did you forget that it still drains Vegeta enough to put him in base? In no way is he spamming it."
Where am I claiming this? All I have said is that Vegeta would respond with Final Explosion if Goku uses sure-kill moves. Also Vegeta entered SSBE literally less than a minute after using Final Explosion so...
"I'm saying that Vegeta didn't somehow beat a Toppo who was holding back power wise. He was holding back in the sense he couldn't use hakai on them. And even then that was in context to frieza. In fact they had a whole philosophical struggle abput toppo throwing away his pride to get stronger."
Still not getting what point you are reaching at here. Are you saying Toppo wasn't holding back even though he was holding back the energy source powering his God of Destruction abilities which is the very thing that made him more powerful? How does this make sense?
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@Cryo
Kamehameha + Final Flash = Final Kamehameha which is logically always going to be stronger than Final Flash by itself. What argument is being made here?
And yes, him spamming it against
Ketopelsa
Black and Zamasu
Universe 9
Toppo
Jiren
Universe 3
Mageta
He spams it more than he does the Galick Gun.
And you're implying Goku is somehow going to be noticeably drained from putting more strength into his Kamehamehas when this isn't the case and we've seen this.
Galick Gun has always been depicted as matching the Kamehameha in raw power. Never not been the case and the Final Flash is objectively more powerful to the Galick Gun. You haven't made any points disproving this or even contesting it.
A. They've only clashed once.
B. Multiple people have pointed out that Goku can increase the strength of his Kamehameha's output. Final Flash being > Galick Gun is a moot point because of this. Somehow trying to ignore this isn't an argument. Kamehameha doesn't have a set output.
No I'm not. Vegeta is literally depicted as observing Jiren's movements and discovering an opening to attack Jiren. He is never mentioned as 'getting stronger'.
The scene is question is literally Vegeta getting hit in the pride for the 99th time and responding by getting stronger momentarily. This isn't even the right scene.
Where am I claiming this? All I have said is that Vegeta would respond with Final Explosion if Goku uses sure-kill moves. Also Vegeta entered SSBE literally less than a minute after using Final Explosion so...
And was as exhausted as Goku was fighting Jiren. Except now that moment in base is now an wide opening. Using Final Explosion to counter Destructo Disk would only hinder Vegeta.
Still not getting what point you are reaching at here. Are you saying Toppo wasn't holding back even though he was holding back the energy source powering his God of Destruction abilities which is the very thing that made him more powerful? How does this make sense?
Except Energy of Destruction isn't what's powering him. It's God Ki, Shin even says his ki is a God's in general not specifically a GoD. Energy of Destruction and Hakai are techniques not power sources.
Kamehameha + Final Flash = Final Kamehameha which is logically always going to be stronger than Final Flash by itself. What argument is being made here?
Code:
Goku was putting out equal strength as Vegeta with the Kamehameha even though he was using Final Flash. This can't be argued.Ketopelsa
Black and Zamasu
Universe 9
Toppo
Jiren
Universe 3
Mageta
He spams it more than he does the Galick Gun.
And you're implying Goku is somehow going to be noticeably drained from putting more strength into his Kamehamehas when this isn't the case and we've seen this.
Galick Gun has always been depicted as matching the Kamehameha in raw power. Never not been the case and the Final Flash is objectively more powerful to the Galick Gun. You haven't made any points disproving this or even contesting it.
A. They've only clashed once.
B. Multiple people have pointed out that Goku can increase the strength of his Kamehameha's output. Final Flash being > Galick Gun is a moot point because of this. Somehow trying to ignore this isn't an argument. Kamehameha doesn't have a set output.
No I'm not. Vegeta is literally depicted as observing Jiren's movements and discovering an opening to attack Jiren. He is never mentioned as 'getting stronger'.
The scene is question is literally Vegeta getting hit in the pride for the 99th time and responding by getting stronger momentarily. This isn't even the right scene.
Where am I claiming this? All I have said is that Vegeta would respond with Final Explosion if Goku uses sure-kill moves. Also Vegeta entered SSBE literally less than a minute after using Final Explosion so...
And was as exhausted as Goku was fighting Jiren. Except now that moment in base is now an wide opening. Using Final Explosion to counter Destructo Disk would only hinder Vegeta.
Still not getting what point you are reaching at here. Are you saying Toppo wasn't holding back even though he was holding back the energy source powering his God of Destruction abilities which is the very thing that made him more powerful? How does this make sense?
Except Energy of Destruction isn't what's powering him. It's God Ki, Shin even says his ki is a God's in general not specifically a GoD. Energy of Destruction and Hakai are techniques not power sources.
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If this is during the ToP then I vote for Vegeta
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'Pretty sure it's explicitly stated that Vegeta was growing stronger after Toppo angered him.'
What is explicitly stated is that their forms are equal, that's all, same strenght, therefore, only skills and ability will help them here and Goku is vastly better with both.
'Other than Vegeta's first use of Final Flash being powerful enough to scare Cell (whereas the Super Kamehameha was never a threat until a vastly more powerful SS Goku and SS2 Gohan used it) and Vegeta's Galick Gun matching the Kamehameha consistently.
I also don't see what's stopping Vegeta from just exploding his ki to destroy the Kienzan discs. Hell he could just power up into Final Explosion when he sees Goku use it and vaporise them.'
Cell never had a full power kamehameha used against him until the cell game and what did happen when it was used against him ? he got his top blown clean off and died against Gohan's, so yeah, going by feat, the kamehemeha is actualy even better rather than an equal.
The Galick Gun hasn't been shown as equal to the kamehameha since the saiyan saga, the final flash is way more often equaled to the kamehameha, which is why their combo technique is the 'final Kamehameha'.
Also it didn't scare Cell, he stood there, took the final flash, faked being in trouble, then smirked, regenerated and Vegeta saw he was completly screwed.
At equal power, nothing say just exploding his energy would stop the Kienzan and if he use the final atonement, GG, he is now stuck in base form and Goku either speedblitz and one shot or use the kienzan hexa blade again because it cost almost nothing to be used, also if Goku used the Taiyoken, Vegeta wouldn't see it to begin with.
'Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh did we see the same thing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xmj222zMeI
You can clearly see that Buu is torn apart and slowly regenerated. Piccolo even claims 'they were blown to a thousand pieces'. Goku isn't going to recover from Vegeta's Final Explosion by any stretch of the imagination when Vegeta can kill anyone multiple times his power with Final Explosion.
You also don't know know how powerful Toppo even is. He had to hold back constantly to not kill anyone so it's reasonable to claim that he is much stronger than Vegeta without a no-kill rule to limit him (unless you want to imply 17 is as fast as SSBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo, KKX20 Goku and a less suppressed Jiren?).'
Yes, we saw the same thing, Babidi isn't even killed by it, while Buu isn't even close to have his Regenerationn overwhelmed and it left tons of head sized chunk and Buu doesn't even care, AKA it was far from ever being a dangers to him.
Except he litteraly never killed anyone massively stronger than him with it, Buu was nowhere near in danger and GoD Toppo was knocked out but nowhere near being killed.
Also once again, Goku has better and easier to use insta kills option that Vegeta doesn't have while having none of the set back of the final atonement.
It's not reasonable because Vegeta litteraly power through his defense, C17 was never able to overwhelm them directly so Toppo clearly keep his defense to the max.
So yeah, once again, Goku would win
What is explicitly stated is that their forms are equal, that's all, same strenght, therefore, only skills and ability will help them here and Goku is vastly better with both.
'Other than Vegeta's first use of Final Flash being powerful enough to scare Cell (whereas the Super Kamehameha was never a threat until a vastly more powerful SS Goku and SS2 Gohan used it) and Vegeta's Galick Gun matching the Kamehameha consistently.
I also don't see what's stopping Vegeta from just exploding his ki to destroy the Kienzan discs. Hell he could just power up into Final Explosion when he sees Goku use it and vaporise them.'
Cell never had a full power kamehameha used against him until the cell game and what did happen when it was used against him ? he got his top blown clean off and died against Gohan's, so yeah, going by feat, the kamehemeha is actualy even better rather than an equal.
The Galick Gun hasn't been shown as equal to the kamehameha since the saiyan saga, the final flash is way more often equaled to the kamehameha, which is why their combo technique is the 'final Kamehameha'.
Also it didn't scare Cell, he stood there, took the final flash, faked being in trouble, then smirked, regenerated and Vegeta saw he was completly screwed.
At equal power, nothing say just exploding his energy would stop the Kienzan and if he use the final atonement, GG, he is now stuck in base form and Goku either speedblitz and one shot or use the kienzan hexa blade again because it cost almost nothing to be used, also if Goku used the Taiyoken, Vegeta wouldn't see it to begin with.
'Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh did we see the same thing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xmj222zMeI
You can clearly see that Buu is torn apart and slowly regenerated. Piccolo even claims 'they were blown to a thousand pieces'. Goku isn't going to recover from Vegeta's Final Explosion by any stretch of the imagination when Vegeta can kill anyone multiple times his power with Final Explosion.
You also don't know know how powerful Toppo even is. He had to hold back constantly to not kill anyone so it's reasonable to claim that he is much stronger than Vegeta without a no-kill rule to limit him (unless you want to imply 17 is as fast as SSBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo, KKX20 Goku and a less suppressed Jiren?).'
Yes, we saw the same thing, Babidi isn't even killed by it, while Buu isn't even close to have his Regenerationn overwhelmed and it left tons of head sized chunk and Buu doesn't even care, AKA it was far from ever being a dangers to him.
Except he litteraly never killed anyone massively stronger than him with it, Buu was nowhere near in danger and GoD Toppo was knocked out but nowhere near being killed.
Also once again, Goku has better and easier to use insta kills option that Vegeta doesn't have while having none of the set back of the final atonement.
It's not reasonable because Vegeta litteraly power through his defense, C17 was never able to overwhelm them directly so Toppo clearly keep his defense to the max.
So yeah, once again, Goku would win
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Honestly the answer here can only be inconclusive.
Determining a winner here is not going to accurately reflect who would actually win in a fight. You might say "Goku is stronger and should win for X, Y and Z" but Toriyama can just as easily have Vegeta overpower him in the end and nobody would bat an eye at the logic.
The two characters are identical in skill, strength and speed for the most part, with slight variances depending on what benefits the plot the most. The only thing different about them is technique (both have ones that can stalemate the others) and personality (which means very little unless plot is involved).
Anyone voting for Goku or Vegeta are voting based on character preference, not fact.
Determining a winner here is not going to accurately reflect who would actually win in a fight. You might say "Goku is stronger and should win for X, Y and Z" but Toriyama can just as easily have Vegeta overpower him in the end and nobody would bat an eye at the logic.
The two characters are identical in skill, strength and speed for the most part, with slight variances depending on what benefits the plot the most. The only thing different about them is technique (both have ones that can stalemate the others) and personality (which means very little unless plot is involved).
Anyone voting for Goku or Vegeta are voting based on character preference, not fact.
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I don't know what this type of argument is called, but isn't that the same thing as saying powerscaling/debating doesn't matter because the author decides who wins? Like, let's say Pre-World Jotaro vs DIO, from a vsbattles standpoint, it would obviously be a stomp in favour of DIO but then when you apply it to in story, Jotaro gains the ability to stop time and shows off that SP AP can oneshot DIO when beforehand, he never showed that level of strength..HierophantDeluxe said:
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