Granolah, Gas, the Infinite, and the Faster Infinite.

[TioKill]

No? In order for this to be sophism, I’d have to be lying to you about what was discussed in the thread. Which you can check yourself and find out I’m not. As said before, I’m literally referring to the what was discussed.

You quite literally claimed the technique was discussed to be infinite speed due to a guidebook statement, to which I stated; 'There is no statement that says that'.

Moving faster than Instant Transmission was being talked about as potentially infinite due to the guidebook statements on the technique

He explicitly utilizes his fighting Style to predict, so no? And if Granolah predicted right before he finished materializing—Which is unlikely because his eye only flicks to where Gas will be AFTER he finishes whiffing—Then yeah, it would.

Ah, the old false equivalency; "We see him fighting in a particular way, thus any instance of him fighting must be in that particular way".

That's not nearly necessarily the case, given he has Chi Sense, and could not read the opponents body movement to predict, making his fighting style inept against teleportation. He simply reacted, as the methods for predicting are made useless by the very nature of teleportation.

No. Cell’s Kamehameha was able to make it to space before he reappears. There was virtually no time taken with travel to Earth from Beerus’ planet, or across planets this arc. You’d have to be blatantly lying to say the disappearance time between that entire beam is congruent with any of the examples I provided.

So the "massively faster than light" attack made a few thousand kilometers beyond the Earth's atmosphere, and this is contradicted by the other instances of... taking little time.

Yeah, it is not a contradiction due to the sheer speed of the attack, to travel so little in relation to it's speed, it would still be only 0.00000...1 second delay, of course it's calc stacking to actually attribute this to the timeframe, but It's not a contradiction whatsoever. Your other instances have no measurement. "Basically no time at all' is still within the Cell example, it took no time at all for Goku to reappear, relatively speaking.

But it would still be quicker than the re-materialization again Cell, which is what I’m highlighting. There would be a vast disparity between the the time taken Cell vanish and it’s showings for vastly more impressive distances.

It would not. You are literally just making claims out of thin air.

I’m not saying otherwise, rather that if we take this example explicitly above the others, a disparity is formed that we still have to account for.

Or just deem the feat unreliable and don't tackle it at all since one cannot give definitive proof of what's the timeframe which Granolah reacted. It's that simple

 

[RedReaper616]

You quite literally claimed the technique was discussed to be infinite speed due to a guidebook statement, to which I stated; 'There is no statement that says that'.

Outpacing the technique was, in that thread. Which you could read to verify what I am saying—Which is that the conversation happened.

Ah, the old false equivalency; "We see him fighting in a particular way, thus any instance of him fighting must be in that particular way".


That's not nearly necessarily the case, given he has Chi Sense, and could not read the opponents body movement to predict, making his fighting style inept against teleportation. He simply reacted, as the methods for predicting are made useless by the very nature of teleportation.

There’s no reason to assume his fighting Style has dramatically shifted in a way we can’t identify. Especially considering the whole point of that fight was: “Granolah has gotten used to utilizing his power and Gas hasn’t, so he can use his experience, techniques, and eye related unique skill to win.”

It should also be noted that when he performs the feat, heavy emphasis is placed on his eyes, which feature his unique knock-off Sharingan ability, so it’d make more sense if he utilized his ability, saw Gas’ blood flow, predicted and moved before Gas makes the trip than his Chi Sense reacting to Gas’ presence, especially because his eye (although improved in nature) is something he is more used to using anyway.

So the "massively faster than light" attack made a few thousand kilometers beyond the Earth's atmosphere, and this is contradicted by the other instances of... taking little time.


Yeah, it is not a contradiction due to the sheer speed of the attack, to travel so little in relation to it's speed, it would still be only 0.00000...1 second delay, of course it's calc stacking to actually attribute this to the timeframe, but It's not a contradiction whatsoever. Your other instances have no measurement. "Basically no time at all' is still within the Cell example, it took no time at all for Goku to reappear, relatively speaking.

Considering a massively faster Goku by what is wildly considered a margin so vast he’d blitz his Cell Saga self in base at probably less than a fraction of his power, can use it to fight Gas, who has faster IT, to consistently react and fight across multiple planets, the fact that Kamehameha—Which is so much slower than Goku it would look like a snail to him now—Could move at all between the gap would then imply that even Black Arc Goku in base form Goku could perform the feat…which would then make this feat an Anti-feat

It would not. You are literally just making claims out of thin air.

Yes, it would. Unless you’re saying Cell’s Kamehameha > Instant Transmission Appearance-Disapparance Rate > Goku’s Current Base Speed, which is >>>>>>> Cell’s Kamehameha.

Or just deem the feat unreliable and don't tackle it at all since one cannot give definitive proof of what's the timeframe which Granolah reacted. It's that simple

Which is close to one of the four options I proposed in the OP to begin with. Place a note to explain why we simply aren’t using the feat to upgrade or downgrade DBS Speed on the relevant Manga Profiles.

You forget I’m only playing Devil’s Advocate here.

 

[TioKill]

Outpacing the technique was, in that thread. Which you could read to verify what I am saying—Which is that the conversation happened.

I'm clarifying the guidebook statement part is false, if they debated it or not is none of my concern.

There’s no reason to assume his fighting Style has dramatically shifted in a way we can’t identify. Especially considering the whole point of that fight was: “Granolah has gotten used to utilizing his power and Gas hasn’t, so he can use his experience, techniques, and eye related unique skill to win.”

Just because he doesn't use prediction once, does not mean his fighting style shifted in any way. His prediction requires him to look at one's body, that is impossible through Instant Transmission, thus he didn't predict it. It's quite literally just that simple. You say as if Granolah is incapable of sensing energy and being coy enough to use this to his advantage once.

It should also be noted that when he performs the feat, heavy emphasis is placed on his eyes, which feature his unique knock-off Sharingan ability, so it’d make more sense if he utilized his ability, saw Gas’ blood flow, predicted and moved before Gas makes the trip than his Chi Sense reacting to Gas’ presence, especially because his eye (although improved in nature) is something he is more used to using anyway.

The trip does not occur. There is no trip.
The emphasis on his eyes can mean either him reacting or using his powers, with the latter being impossible for reasons above.

Considering a massively faster Goku by what is wildly considered a margin so vast he’d blitz his Cell Saga self in base at probably less than a fraction of his power, can use it to fight Gas, who has faster IT, to consistently react and fight across multiple planets, the fact that Kamehameha—Which is so much slower than Goku it would look like a snail to him now—Could move at all between the gap would then imply that even Black Arc Goku in base form Goku could perform the feat…which would then make this feat an Anti-feat.

That we can blame on Plot Induced Stupidity. TP doesn't improve in speed, and either case would be a self-contradiction. If TP is so fast that only Characters above God Gonu can react, then the Cell example is a contradiction. If TP is so slow Cell's Kamehameha can travel so far before Goku reappears, then it's contradicting literally every future use against faster characters.

Thus, it's a plot induced stupidity, and there's no point in debating it.

Instant Transmission Appearance-Disapparance Rate > Goku’s Current Base Speed.

Never said that.

Which is close to one of the four options I proposed in the OP to begin with. Place a note to explain why we simply aren’t using the feat to upgrade or downgrade DBS Speed on the relevant Manga Profiles.

You forget I’m only playing Devil’s Advocate here.

You're doing a bad job, Devil's going to jail.

 

[SirAlex09]

The time for the actually journey is instant, but the disappearing/reappearing part does take a tiny amount of time.

this.

 

[RedReaper616]

I'm clarifying the guidebook statement part is false, if they debated it or not is none of my concern.

That's why I was so confused here. I was just explaining what occurred, so I was lost.

Just because he doesn't use prediction once, does not mean his fighting style shifted in any way. His prediction requires him to look at one's body, that is impossible through Instant Transmission, thus he didn't predict it. It's quite literally just that simple. You say as if Granolah is incapable of sensing energy and being coy enough to use this to his advantage once.

Sure, I'll grant you that-Him not doing it once doesn't mean his fighting Style has shifted, but there's still no actual in lore reason to assume he has. Further, when he performs a similar feat, he's clearly intended to be predicting Gas.

The trip does not occur. There is no trip.
The emphasis on his eyes can mean either him reacting or using his powers, with the latter being impossible for reasons above.

I mean, I'm referring to the "instantaneous" nature of the ability, but that's valid.

That we can blame on Plot Induced Stupidity. TP doesn't improve in speed, and either case would be a self-contradiction. If TP is so fast that only Characters above God Gonu can react, then the Cell example is a contradiction. If TP is so slow Cell's Kamehameha can travel so far before Goku reappears, then it's contradicting literally every future use against faster characters.

Thus, it's a plot induced stupidity, and there's no point in debating it.

One: Granolah and Gas are explicitly using faster IT, so obviously Dragon Ball isn't very keen on following that rule, but yeah, the standard IT teleportation rate shouldn't be changing. However, my question now is: Why are we treating the Cell Kamehameha as an explicit anti-feat to prevent upgrading and it's not PIS there, but it is PIS when it comes to downgrading due to the newly formed inconsistency that is borne from taking it as the "higher" (prioritized over every other explicitly better) use? If we're discounting the entire thing as PIS, especially if, in you own words, it'd be contradicting it's much faster nature against faster characters (making it a full on outlier), then why validate it at all? I feel like you can't "partially count" the feat. You either do and take the full implications, or you don't and consider the entire thing an outlier, not just specific parts disconnected from each other.

If it's truly PIS, the entirety of the anti-feat is PIS, so it shouldn't be relevant in discussing what the implications of the ability are, because it's contradicted so heavily, especially in this arc, that counting it for the downgrade and not for the upgrade (regardless of which occurs), is a like validating an outlier, which goes against the very nature of how outliers function.

Never said that.

Never said you did. I said that's the implication of your words.

You're doing a bad job, Devil's going to jail.

Probably. I mean, have you met the guy? Total asshole. Lol.

 

[RedReaper616]

Bump.

 

[speedster352]

I am fine with this I agree

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Me when I haven't read the thread.

 

[speedster352]

Me when I haven't read the thread.

It’s not that hard to understand they moved faster than teleportation so they should get infinite speed.

 

[RedReaper616]

It’s not that hard to understand they moved faster than teleportation so they should get infinite speed.

He's referring to the fact that this actually isn't an upgrade thread. It's only a thread dedicated to indexing the feat in question based on our standards so we can be as accurate and up to date as possible, regardless to if this (god forbid) upgrades or (ALSO god forbid) downgrades DBS Speed/Instant Transmission as a whole. That being said, I'll count your votes in the "Upgrade," side of things.

 

[AguilaR202]

I mean every instance of IT during combat after the granolah arc is going to create recursive speed scaling if this goes through.

 

[RedReaper616]

I mean every instance of IT during combat after the granolah arc is going to create recursive speed scaling if this goes through.

Not wrong. To be completely honest, given how Toriyama (and/or) Toyotaru have written Dragon Ball Super, it seems like Instant Transmission only exists to transport characters long distances because Saiyan's can't breathe in space, which doesn't even make sense, not because their speed is lacking. (Especially given that Gas literally flies across a PRESUMABLY decent portion of the universe in 20 minutes), and has only recently been used in combat in this way since the Cell Saga and debatably against Beerus for a few teleports before big blast (which also doesn't make sense, since Beerus' top speed is 3/4th Whis yet he couldn't react to IT), so it's possible this problem never occurs. That said, I definitely think this thing is definitely A THING, and one that should be deliberated. (As I said before, this thread seeks neither to upgrade or downgrade. Merely discuss and index as necessary.)

 

[Thicc18]

"Faster th

Considering this is the manga, would multiple instances of Instant Transmission users disappearing and re-appearing in the same panel be proof of it taking zero time?

False equivalency if I've ever seen one.

 

[Thicc18]

It's very obvious that materialization takes more time than traveling between point A and point B when they use Instant Transmission. So I've gotta disagree with infinite speed IT. Not to mention as pointed out instant does not reffer to 0 time. It just reffers to something happening very quickly.

 

[BOEGVELD]

False equivalency if I've ever seen one.

Don't use fallacies if you don't know what they mean.

 

[RedReaper616]

Bump.

 

[RedReaper616]

Buuuump.

 

[Aachintya31]

Buuuump.

This is rejected bruh

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Is this topic still valid or was it rejected?
Here appears another feat of speed

Gas reacting to Goku's teleportation

 

[Damage3245]

Gas reacting to Goku's teleportation

Gas is reacting to Goku's attempt to punch him after the teleportation happened.

 

[RedReaper616]

I mean, I said this before, this isn’t an upgrade thread. I desired a note of some sort to explain why we’re not gonna scale Goku and Co. to the IT feats.