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Helios v Mummy
- Thread starter Udlmaster
- Start date
- 2,447
- 166
So what can Mummy do against 1-B power null?
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He nulls powers based from the other thread and his profile (Don't know much about him though sorry)
Udlmaster
They/Them- 6,868
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- Thread starter
- #5
Looks like all the profiles lack Existence Erasure.MrDrProfessorPatricio said:
So it looks like the Mummy just erases Helios' True Name and causes reality to forget about him.
Note his true name is the culmination of your entire being, everything you are, will be and was is your True Name.
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Powernull isn't based on only the things it has been shown to negate, this was decided a while ago and is the reason why Iihiko's profile doesn't list a million and a half things that he has powernull against.
Powernull just nulls powers, it doesn't only null the things it has been shown to null
Powernull just nulls powers, it doesn't only null the things it has been shown to null
Udlmaster
They/Them- 6,868
- 2,064
- Thread starter
- #7
That's just a massive NLF.Paul Frank said:
Mummies also have passive Power Null by being immune magic. The same would have to apply here.
So all Helios' hax are negged also, and then Mummies have a massive AP advantage, "At least 7 Teratons" v 42 Teratons.
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Being immune to magic isn't powernull though, that's resistance
And that's not really NLF, it's powernull, it nullifies powers, it's not like a resistance, the limit is the highest it has been shown to null, i.e if someone has 1-B powernull, we wouldn't say they could null 1-A stuff, but 1-B and below is fair game, unless there is a reason the opponent can't be nulled
And that's not really NLF, it's powernull, it nullifies powers, it's not like a resistance, the limit is the highest it has been shown to null, i.e if someone has 1-B powernull, we wouldn't say they could null 1-A stuff, but 1-B and below is fair game, unless there is a reason the opponent can't be nulled
Udlmaster
They/Them- 6,868
- 2,064
- Thread starter
- #9
Power Null will only affect things which it has been shown to nullify, it cannot do it to things which it has never shown to.
And that "the limit is the highest it has been shown to null" is a false equivalence, those aren't the same thing.
You're trying to measure power to versatility. So it's still a NLF.
And that "the limit is the highest it has been shown to null" is a false equivalence, those aren't the same thing.
You're trying to measure power to versatility. So it's still a NLF.
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That is literally the standard for powernull, a thread was made on it a few months ago, you can feel free to make a thread to change it to only null what it has shown to null though
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No, that's not how we treat it, look at Iihiko and Yhwach, who can null anything, including powers that don't exist in their series due to the wording of the powernull page
"It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this ability can nullify anything that falls within the phenomena their powers are made to counter. It is to be assumed that any negation power has its limitations based on the strongest thing it has nullified, and a character may be resistant to the ability (at least in one of its forms), preventing it from having its usual effects."
So we scale powernull off of the strongest thing it has nulled, not limiting it to only what it has shown to null, the powernull page also states the following:
"but the ability is often limited to a certain type of power, such as supernatural phenomena in general, or magic."
If we were to limit Helios' power like this, it would be limited to "abilities in general", so no, based off of both that thread, and the powernull page, we don't limit powernull to only what it has shown to null
"It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this ability can nullify anything that falls within the phenomena their powers are made to counter. It is to be assumed that any negation power has its limitations based on the strongest thing it has nullified, and a character may be resistant to the ability (at least in one of its forms), preventing it from having its usual effects."
So we scale powernull off of the strongest thing it has nulled, not limiting it to only what it has shown to null, the powernull page also states the following:
"but the ability is often limited to a certain type of power, such as supernatural phenomena in general, or magic."
If we were to limit Helios' power like this, it would be limited to "abilities in general", so no, based off of both that thread, and the powernull page, we don't limit powernull to only what it has shown to null
Udlmaster
They/Them- 6,868
- 2,064
- Thread starter
- #13
Yeah, no, Yhwach. And Iihiko don't negate every ability no matter what.
You're literally not reading what the profile even says: ""It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this ability can nullify anything that falls within the phenomena their powers are made to counter."
Don't try and bullshit me by ignoring this part. This part right here negates everything you're trying to say.
Helios is limited to what he has been shown to negate within his phenomena.
You're literally not reading what the profile even says: ""It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this ability can nullify anything that falls within the phenomena their powers are made to counter."
Don't try and bullshit me by ignoring this part. This part right here negates everything you're trying to say.
Helios is limited to what he has been shown to negate within his phenomena.
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>Yeah, no, Yhwach. And Iihiko don't negate every ability no matter what.
I see you ain't familiar with both of them...
I see you ain't familiar with both of them...
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You must have never seen a single Yhwach thread then ovo
I am though, that part that you are trying to interpret as "only works on what it has been used on before" is literally countered by the next part of the sentence, which I italicized for you. The sentence as a whole is saying that it only works up to the strongest thing it has nulled, the whole sentence is saying it would be NLF to assume 3-D powernull works on 4-D stuff basically, not that you have to have feats of powernulling EE to powernull EE
I am though, that part that you are trying to interpret as "only works on what it has been used on before" is literally countered by the next part of the sentence, which I italicized for you. The sentence as a whole is saying that it only works up to the strongest thing it has nulled, the whole sentence is saying it would be NLF to assume 3-D powernull works on 4-D stuff basically, not that you have to have feats of powernulling EE to powernull EE
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I'm literally telling you what the statement means as a whole
Rather than taking just part of the statement and interpreting it to fit my definition, I am taking the sentence and the next one all together and telling you what it means, seeing as they are clearly compliments to eachother, with the second sentence further elaborating on the first
Reading the whole thing together, as is clearly intended, it becomes clear what it is trying to say, which is that powernull is limited "by the strongest thing it nulled" and is, in fact, not "only limited to what it has been used on"
Rather than taking just part of the statement and interpreting it to fit my definition, I am taking the sentence and the next one all together and telling you what it means, seeing as they are clearly compliments to eachother, with the second sentence further elaborating on the first
Reading the whole thing together, as is clearly intended, it becomes clear what it is trying to say, which is that powernull is limited "by the strongest thing it nulled" and is, in fact, not "only limited to what it has been used on"
Udlmaster
They/Them- 6,868
- 2,064
- Thread starter
- #19
>seeing as they are clearly compliments to eachother, with the second sentence further elaborating on the first
Actually the first sentence is the basis, and the second expands upon the limitation.
Part 1 states how you cannot assume to negate all hax relating to phenomena, and part 2 is talking about how strong the Power null is, we even know they're talking about two different things because they're separated by a full stop.
Actually the first sentence is the basis, and the second expands upon the limitation.
Part 1 states how you cannot assume to negate all hax relating to phenomena, and part 2 is talking about how strong the Power null is, we even know they're talking about two different things because they're separated by a full stop.
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Part 2 is simply expanding on what part 1 meant, they aren't two seperate things
like I said though, make a thread about the powernull page and standards if you want ovo
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Last time I checked PN is treated like that all across the wiki, so, it would be better to make a thread.
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Except you really didn't, you can have a period after a sentence and have the second sentence still just be a followup that expands on what the first meant, providing context.
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Three things.
1. Do any of you have any scans or other citations showing the mechanics of this power null and how it achieves its effects?
2. Do any of you have any scans or other citations proving that the power null is "1-B" in potency?
3. Does existence erasure...well, exist in the setting that Helios comes from, or not?
1. Do any of you have any scans or other citations showing the mechanics of this power null and how it achieves its effects?
2. Do any of you have any scans or other citations proving that the power null is "1-B" in potency?
3. Does existence erasure...well, exist in the setting that Helios comes from, or not?
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No, I don't have the scans cause they are all in Japanese, the verse was being revised last I checked, so as of now all we have is the explanation on the profile or in other matches. That being that, when he contacts a power, he crushes it and it's just like, gone
The 1-B comes from their higher dimensional manipulation of the astral particles, since that is what all their abilities use
Yes, it does exists, characters like Zephyr for example have it listed on their profile already
The 1-B comes from their higher dimensional manipulation of the astral particles, since that is what all their abilities use
Yes, it does exists, characters like Zephyr for example have it listed on their profile already
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So it's based on physical contact? Also, do you know of any of the people who actually have direct quotes or scans (translated or otherwise) of the work that they can link and explain the context of?Paul Frank said:
This needs to be elaborated upon before I'm willing to assume that it qualifies as "1-B powers". As far as our more recent standards are concerned, something simply originating from a higher dimension does not make it Tier 1 anymore, and affecting that something doesn't necessarily give your powers Tier 1 potency unless there is further context.
I don't see existence erasure anywhere on that character's profile. Do you have (or are you aware of) any specific examples of that character using that power?
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I don't think it's physical contact, since he didn't make physical contact with the anti astral particles afaik, and they were still crushed, last I checked, ALRF was revising the verse, but he is only here from time to time now on his new account, so I'm not sure if he has the scans anymore
I don't know if it was checked under the new system, but to my knowledge, the dimensions are transcendent, being unable to be interacted with by 3 dimensional people, with the only way to even affect them being to use the particles, which themselves come from the higher dimensions and don't even exist in lower ones, in order to mess with them, with the dimensions being able to destroy lower ones completely if collapsed, the higher d beings able to punch holes in the entire third dimension without trying etc.
It's listed as void manip since his EE also affects non existent things, it is done through manipulating his vibrations in order to erase anything that has a frequency, which includes people, energy, particles, and even things that are non existent in the 3rd dimension. I believe he used it in his fight against Mars
I don't know if it was checked under the new system, but to my knowledge, the dimensions are transcendent, being unable to be interacted with by 3 dimensional people, with the only way to even affect them being to use the particles, which themselves come from the higher dimensions and don't even exist in lower ones, in order to mess with them, with the dimensions being able to destroy lower ones completely if collapsed, the higher d beings able to punch holes in the entire third dimension without trying etc.
It's listed as void manip since his EE also affects non existent things, it is done through manipulating his vibrations in order to erase anything that has a frequency, which includes people, energy, particles, and even things that are non existent in the 3rd dimension. I believe he used it in his fight against Mars
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I'm not sure what to make of the first bit.
That still doesn't necessarily make the particles themselves Tier 1, though. The dimensions being transcendent and having beings that can punch holes in the third dimension is one thing, but that doesn't necessarily extend to the particles or how potent they are, much less does it give everyone who uses the particles Tier 1 powers.
That doesn't appear to be even remotely the same as what Udl has cited as the Mummy's EE. Which...kind of matters if that's the only form of EE/whatever that exists in the setting. With a power that supposedly just "crushes abilities" in some vague sense (read: Helios' power null), I don't think it's correct to assume he can do so when faced with something that doesn't have any precedent in the setting he comes from. That would be like me saying an ability that "protects against all magic" can defend against magic-based causality manipulation, despite the former ability coming from a verse where magic is mostly elemental.
Using another ability (in this case, "manipulating vibrations") in order to achieve another ability's effect doesn't necessarily equate to having that second ability, either. Manipulating vibrations in order to mimick EE would still be Vibration Manipulation first and foremost, just like manipulating electrical signals in the brain in order to mimick mind control would still be Electricity Manipulation first and foremost.
That still doesn't necessarily make the particles themselves Tier 1, though. The dimensions being transcendent and having beings that can punch holes in the third dimension is one thing, but that doesn't necessarily extend to the particles or how potent they are, much less does it give everyone who uses the particles Tier 1 powers.
That doesn't appear to be even remotely the same as what Udl has cited as the Mummy's EE. Which...kind of matters if that's the only form of EE/whatever that exists in the setting. With a power that supposedly just "crushes abilities" in some vague sense (read: Helios' power null), I don't think it's correct to assume he can do so when faced with something that doesn't have any precedent in the setting he comes from. That would be like me saying an ability that "protects against all magic" can defend against magic-based causality manipulation, despite the former ability coming from a verse where magic is mostly elemental.
Using another ability (in this case, "manipulating vibrations") in order to achieve another ability's effect doesn't necessarily equate to having that second ability, either. Manipulating vibrations in order to mimick EE would still be Vibration Manipulation first and foremost, just like manipulating electrical signals in the brain in order to mimick mind control would still be Electricity Manipulation first and foremost.
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The particles are what is used to achieve the punching through the third dimensions, they did that themselves when they first arrived
As quoted earlier, the very page for powernull specifically says its limits are set by the strongest thing it nulled, not the types of things it nulled, Iihiko's "Power Nullification towards (Insert a million powers here)" was changed to just "Power Nullification" for this same reason, this is also why other characters with power null don't list everything it has been used on.
Matches with people who use power null as their main thing never bring up the question of "Has this person ever nulled X?" because that's not how we treat powernull, again, look at any Yhwach match for an example, the accepted standard is that powernull works up to the level of it's highest showing, not that it only works if it has been used on something before
It's not using vibrations to destroy stuff which mimicks EE, the vibrations just carry that ability of erasure on them
As quoted earlier, the very page for powernull specifically says its limits are set by the strongest thing it nulled, not the types of things it nulled, Iihiko's "Power Nullification towards (Insert a million powers here)" was changed to just "Power Nullification" for this same reason, this is also why other characters with power null don't list everything it has been used on.
Matches with people who use power null as their main thing never bring up the question of "Has this person ever nulled X?" because that's not how we treat powernull, again, look at any Yhwach match for an example, the accepted standard is that powernull works up to the level of it's highest showing, not that it only works if it has been used on something before
It's not using vibrations to destroy stuff which mimicks EE, the vibrations just carry that ability of erasure on them
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Do you have any proof of that? And is there a given quantity (even vaguely so) of how many of these particles were used for that? Because that matters when dealing with something like this.
It's not a question of "Has this person ever nulled X?". It's a question of whether or not the thing that it's being claimed to work on even exists in the verse to begin with. Frankly, what I'm gathering from this conversation is that the verse doesn't have abilities that aren't based on these particles you're talking about, which would severely flaw the assumption that Helios' power null works on anything not reliant on those unless there's direct evidence of such.
Do you have any proof of this either?
It's not a question of "Has this person ever nulled X?". It's a question of whether or not the thing that it's being claimed to work on even exists in the verse to begin with. Frankly, what I'm gathering from this conversation is that the verse doesn't have abilities that aren't based on these particles you're talking about, which would severely flaw the assumption that Helios' power null works on anything not reliant on those unless there's direct evidence of such.
Do you have any proof of this either?
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What's going on here? lol
@Paul Frank
It's more like...i stopped caring about VSBW and versus debating in general so i no longer desire to do anything with it. Just drop here time to time for fun.
And yeah, i honestly don't care about this verse anymore (Shinza too) as in how it is presented in the wiki. Most likely this will end up with it being deleted. RIP Silverio 2017-2019/2020, you lived enough
@Paul Frank
It's more like...i stopped caring about VSBW and versus debating in general so i no longer desire to do anything with it. Just drop here time to time for fun.
And yeah, i honestly don't care about this verse anymore (Shinza too) as in how it is presented in the wiki. Most likely this will end up with it being deleted. RIP Silverio 2017-2019/2020, you lived enough
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