High-Godly regeneration problem

[Antoniofer]

The case is that a verse is never going to be explicit about it. It's easy to rate based in physical and spiritual level (in contrast to form and essence), but "above" that is already verse dependent (in case of course, we no longer consider erasure through history as the highest form of erasure), and thus subject to debating.

 

[Promestein]

What's the issue with High-Godly now...?

 

[Bobsican]

There's also the option to just remove High-Godly and leave anything above just on a case by case for "above baseline" Mid-Godly, just pointing it out.

 

[Antvasima]

Promestein:

Well, originally we simply wondered if we should count merely being erased from history to be counted as High-Godly, but then the discussion started to derail into asking for far more extreme revisions, or even removing High-Godly altogether.

Currently, I think that since our main experts regarding this topic are missing, and they helped us to discuss the subject so thoroughly previously, it seems much safer to not mess with our definitions at all in this case, as we are almost guaranteed to clumsily cause much more harm than good.

 

[Overlord775]

The case is that a verse is never going to be explicit about it. It's easy to rate based in physical and spiritual level (in contrast to form and essence), but "above" that is already verse dependent (in case of course, we no longer consider erasure through history as the highest form of erasure), and thus subject to debating.

Concepts by definition are above both the physical and spiritual, so we just use that if it's not contradicted in the specific serie

 

[Antoniofer]

OK, so I understand that High-Godly is regenerating that one "element" required to have both form and essence, which it's absence will make someone or something impossible to possesses a body and spirit, am I right?

 

[Overlord775]

seems about right

 

[Antoniofer]

OK, so going for the Rimuru example, everyone possesses this "information particle", even if those that has no body, soul or essence, and one can't have any of those three elements without having the particle first, am I right?

 

[Overlord775]

i'm not a Tensei knowleageable, you should ask Celestial Pegasus or WHYNAUT or someone else knowlegeable

 

[Everything12]

As stated all things have Information Particles, including Abstract things such as Skills, nothing exists in TenSura without having Information Particles even existences without Physical forms or Souls.

 

[Antoniofer]

I see. So, regenerating after being wiped out from any records (which includes memories), independently if that involve wiping it out from all times, is no longer a requeriment to obtain High-Godly, right?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it seems like it is currently sufficient to regenerate from being completely annihilated within a setting to qualify for High-Godly, in all the respects that this involves, as long as it includes being erased from history, conceptually, and/or from the narrative itself.

Of course, this can cause the verses that do not use concepts and narratives to have lesser requirements to qualify for getting the ability, which I am uneasy with, but I definitely do not want us to mess with a definition that we are uncertain regarding how it properly works.

 

[Promestein]

Just strip it down to conceptual erasure

 

[Antvasima]

Well, absolute destruction that includes conceptual and/or narrative erasure, in that case.

 

[Promestein]

I think the and/or here is why this definition is so confused, we just keep on tacking more on, when we should just reduce it to regenerating from the complete destruction of the basal idea(s) behind the character.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, being destroyed on a narrative level tends to include that, and possibly more.

 

[Promestein]

Yes. Thus, would be covered by that definition, as would, potentially, history erasure when it is relevant.

 

[Antvasima]

I actually think that you make a good point, but we would need input from our most knowledgeable available members before we change this, and preferably Sera EX as well, if somebody can get input from her via Discord.

Who do you suggest that I should notify?

 

[Sera_EX]

so currently the regen page says this for high godly regen

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after erasure from all aspects of existence, such as from history, narrative/plot, or conceptual/information destruction.

The problem is that is just mid-godly regen plus acausality. Erasure from history is just existance erasure being done across time.

See, the problem is you miss one fundamental detail which makes this assessment wrong.

Acausality is ignoring temporal paradoxes. Basically, if someone erased you from the past and you still exist in the present, that's acausality. It means you are ignoring the relationship between cause and effect.

High godly regen via history isn't the same. In this case, it's less impressive. It's literally being erased from existence because someone erased you from all points in time, but you came back anyway because you regenerated your "existence".

If it were acausal you wouldn't have been erased to begin with. Acausals ignore the relationship between cause and effect, not regenerate from it.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera_EX

What do you think about @Promestein's suggestion regarding how we can redefine High-Godly Regeneration?

 

[Sera_EX]

I personally feel the definition is fine.

The OP is already based on a misunderstanding. From where I stand there's nothing crucially wrong with the definition. It's not perfect, but it isn't fundamentally flawed and requires redefining.

It's not that Prom or EX's takes are bad, I just don't feel like messing with this anymore.

 

[Antvasima]

Just strip it down to conceptual erasure

So you do not agree with this? It seems like a good improvement to me.

 

[Sera_EX]

I don't.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. That is a problem.

@Promestein @AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

What do you think that we should do?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Imo it's obvious that limiting to "conceptual erasure" is more of a step back than anything else.

Or more like, formulating it as "their more fundamental aspect" would be better (less restricting and more realistic in comparison to how verses usually are). Conceptual stuff would more be a "default" for verses which lack explanation of what's the most fundamental thing.

(Tho I still think that Executor's_N0's suggestion is currently the best one; even if it would deserve its own thread).

 

[Antvasima]

Can you remind us what Executor suggested please?

 

[Promestein]

"most fundamental aspect" works for me

 

[Antvasima]

Does that seem appropriate to you as well @Sera_EX ?

 

[Sera_EX]

I don’t know honestly. The soul is the most fundamental aspect in Bleach. Does that mean certain Bleach characters get High Godly?

High Godly in premise is “erased on multiple/all levels”.

To throw a random hypothetical out there: What sounds more impressive?

A. Character Dude comes back after having mind body and soul erased.

B. Character Dude comes back after being erased from all points in history.

The only thing that can make High Godly superior to Mid Godly and not redundant is if we start adding other levels of existence (it doesn’t have to be planes specifically, just erasure on multiple
levels at once and not a single point in reality).

That’s why the original definition said “all forms of existence” before it was changed.

Overall, I don’t really care. As I’ve said I don’t feel like discussing this anymore.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Sera most fundamental aspect sounds too weak.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Fundamental aspect varies from verse to verse. In Bleach it’s souls, in Tenslime it’s information that makes up concepts, SMT it’s both, fundamental aspect is too lazy.

 

[Bobsican]

I still wouldn't oppose if High-Godly just gets removed and just gets specified as "above baseline" Mid-Godly.

 

[Overlord775]

stop pushing it, that's 100% not happening

 

[Antvasima]

That’s why the original definition said “all forms of existence” before it was changed.

Should we add this phrase to the current definitions, to help properly underline what is required?

 

[Sera_EX]

Not really, it was changed by Elizhaa for a good reason. It also will make the definition sound needlessly stricter than it actually is.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So should we keep things as they are, despite that some characters with this ability will have a much less impressive scale of regenerative abilities then?

 

[Sera_EX]

Those characters probably shouldn’t have it to begin with. I also don’t think things should remain the way they are presently. Maybe a tweak to the definition wouldn’t hurt. I just can’t figure out the right wording for “multiple levels of existence” without it causing some sort of confusion. It also doesn’t help that I’m in no mood to deal with it, not now anyway.

 

[Executor_N0]

Someone mentioned me a few replies ago, but I don't know if this is the right place to mention this, but I did this blog to discuss more about the "Planes of Existence" and also regeneration as a whole, and I do think that having high godly being regeneration for cosmologies with more than just two levels of existence (Like Soul and Body) could work. Don't know if there's really a "easy to understand way" to explain that, but if there's any way to make the standards more clear, we could try to find something.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Executor.

What do you think of Promestein's suggestion to only allow the ability for the characters that can regenerate from conceptual destruction

 

[Accelerate420]

I know this is a staff discussion but I'm in agreement with Promestein's suggestion.

• High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after erasure from all aspects of existence, in such case there's nothing else from the being in any plane of existence and the regeneration is from absolute nothingness.

This just achieves the same result as being conceptually erased with the exception of the 'plane of any existence' part, which you could just say with conceptual erasure. Your entire existence is now nothing, down to the last concept itself. If you can regenerate from being denied into nothing via conceptual destruction, does it still achieve the same affect? Yes, conceptually erased makes things less literal, but High-Godly is already the highest regeneration there is, isn't it? It should get bottle-necked at this point so we keep it to verses that make the most sense as this is a very high tier.

The Mid-Godly and what not other aspects are good though. I'm fine with both proposition's but I think bottle-necking is is the better option as I've noticed several pages that have High-Godly when they should be a level or two lower.