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Hollow Knight size problem

AGENTFURIOUS

AGENTFURIOUS

84
19
Why do we assume that the "Bugs" found in hollow knight are the size of bugs n our real world, I believe that assuming that the bugs found in hollow knight are the size of real bugs to make little sense, because there are certain statements within the story that make this assumption seem ridiculous, for instance, the Pale king was large enough to burrow through several mountains to arrive to Hollownest, furthermore, it should also be noted that the anatomy of the bugs found in hollow nest is completely different to the ones in our world, with bugs being formed by a metaphysical energy. I think that we should make major changes to the Hollow knight verse, regarding size.
 
Do you have any sources to these claims? Furthermore, why should we take these mountains as real mountain sized? They're just mentioned, and they have downscaled versions of stuff like cities and whatever, so why wouldn't mountains be proportionally scaled down?

Also, a worm can still burrow in a real mountain. It's not like the soil can't be eaten just because big.
 
The bugs are comprised of soul the energy the Knight uses for battle this is elaborated within the game's lore, and the size between bugs seems incredibly inconsistent like the White Lady literally being a tree, whose roots spread around a massive area, the Bugs themselves are capable of crafting weapons and other tools, Furthermore, we see entirely new species within the world, like Grim and we see Lumaflyes see are significantly smaller than the Knight, my claims are based on statements provided in the game's lore, the Lore section of the Hollow knight wiki contains much of this information with citations, the statement of the Pale King burrowing through moutnains is found in the wanderers jorunal book, also the Pale King shell is clearly shown to be in a rocky area, not near soil.


https://hollowknight.fandom.com/wik...Pale_King_01.png#cite_note-wanderersjournal-0
 
Once again you're assuming that the cities are scaled-down, to begin with, I think it's also worth mentioning that area above the city of tears is called a lake. If you make the assumption that the denizens of Hollownest themselves are actual real-life Bugs than we should consider the ake above the city of tears to be an actual lake, a Lake that would confirm the Knight is larger than you claim.
 
You didn't provide any evidence against his claim, you just said a bunch of words. They're bugs and it's been shown that they are rather small compared to real life objects like nails and such.

Your "argument" is that they aren't real world bug which isn't an argument. There's a literal stag beetle that we scale him off to, they're clearly meant to be tiny.

Digging through mountains doesn't mean he's bigger than a mountain or anything, there's no reason to assume that. Unless you can prove that they're bigger with a statement or pixel scaling.

He can dig through rock, I don't see how that means he's bigger than what we've calc. They're fictional super bugs.
 
I must agree with the OP, small size makes no sense for Hollow Knight's universe. Maybe not nonsense but I don't find it likely.

First of all, answering the arguments adressed by Wokistan and TheRustyOne.

"Furthermore, why should we take these mountains as real mountain sized? They're just mentioned, and they have downscaled versions of stuff like cities and whatever, so why wouldn't mountains be proportionally scaled down?"

That isn't a good point. OP is proposing that HK's small size isn't accurate. Disputing the claim of the mountains being normal-sized by claiming that the cities are downscaled, the argument is being made already assuming that the city is small-sized. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, that's a fallacy, just forgot the name of it. Something about making a point as if you were already correct.

"You didn't provide any evidence against his claim, you just said a bunch of words. They're bugs and it's been shown that they are rather small compared to real life objects like nails and such."

Except... That isn't the case. Those nails do not look like real life nails in the slightest. To me, it is just an artistic choice to depict blades and sword-like weapons as nail and needle-themed things. The argument of scaling them basing that they use nails as weapons is nitpicky as hell. I mean, there are plenty of other objects that they could scale to as well. What about the caravans used by the Grimm Troupe? We could scale them by those. Or by the tents. Or by the several other pieces of architecture. And attempting to justify those as saying "they are downscaled" is nitpicky as well. I could very well say that the nails that are upscaled, and the argument stays the same, with the same amount of evidence.

"There's a literal stag beetle that we scale him off to, they're clearly meant to be tiny."

Except, again, that is imprecise. The bugs depicted in Hollow Knight are all over the place, some anatomically incorrect, most of them having size relations completely different from what would be in real life. In fact, even if we scaled them to the size of actual nails and needles, most bugs would come as extremely small to the size of nails and needles, at least compared to the size they show in-game. They are not "meant" to be tiny. They are meant to represent an artistic choice that may or may not have bearing on their size.

As for me? I think we should consider them normal-sized. There has been no official statement or evidence about their size being small, normal, gigantic or whatsoever, and no lore in-game indicates that they are small-sized. You can, of course, speculate they are small, there is absolutely no problem with that. The problem is treating HK's universe differently, in that they need to prove that they are normal-sized when all other fictional universes are assumed by base being normal-sized. Them being bugs and using nails isn't an argument, it is speculation, since as I see it, it is an artistic choice.

Even the arguments that attempt to prove they are small come as nitpicky. Scaling off bugs whose size relations have nothing to do in real life (Too lazy rn to grab examples, but I can assure you that a weevil standing side-by-side with a dung beetle have very different proportions in real life than what is shown in-game); arguing about nails that not only do not look like real life nails, but that even if they were, would indicate far larger bugs. And there are other points I could make that show that it is weird to say that they are small, but my point stands: Maybe they are small. But it is a maybe. And until we have solid proof of otherwise, it is basing around speculation and unfairness.
 
Assuming a bug to be the size of a bug isn't exactly outlandish, is it? The cities, the caravans and any other architecture built by the bugs has absolutely zero weight as an argument- they were the ones that built them, why would it be massive compared to them? As for the mountains, they're the ones calling them that, of course they're not gonna be mountains by our standards.
 
I'm pretty sure we scaled to the nail, not the size of the bugs.
 
I think we scaled to the stag's size. Which is arbitrary, considering the bugs really aren't in scale, but it be what it be.
 
"Assuming a bug to be the size of a bug isn't exactly outlandish, is it?"
Armor, it isn't outlandish. That isn't my point. My point is that there is no reason to assume that they aren't people-sized. They aren't normal bugs, they are more in-line with bug people. If they were actual bugs, and the nails were actual nails, the size discrepancies would be extreme and impossible to make a consistent or even decent guess at their general size. But they are bugs in theme and appearance only, not very different from bug-people across fiction. Most do not behave like bugs, their relative sizes aren't those of bugs, their nails do not look like nails and do not have the size one would have compared to a bug, and many other things aren't those of bugs or do not fit in. Don't mistake me, if there was official lore or statements or even solid indication that they are small, I'd accept it gladly; but there is none. Again, I don't doubt that they are, but it isn't right to assume that they are.

"The cities, the caravans and any other architecture built by the bugs has absolutely zero weight as an argument- they were the ones that built them, why would it be massive compared to them?"
Again, not my point. My argument wasn't that it is impossible for bugs to build structures relative to their size - my point was of grabbing a random real-life object and saying that that was the one that they should scale to, nails in that case. I could do the same to literally any other object in the game. Nails were only picked because they'd fit in the "Hollow Knight bugs are small" narrative. HKs nails do not even look like any nail I've seen in real life or in the internet. Especially not size-wise when compared to most bugs.

"As for the mountains, they're the ones calling them that, of course they're not gonna be mountains by our standards."
I didn't say anything about them. And even then, the discussion is precisely to adress if the bugs and the universe are actually small or not. It is not right to assume that they are small without proof, it is a fallacy if I'm not mistaken. I'll search the name later.

"I think we scaled to the stag's size. Which is arbitrary, considering the bugs really aren't in scale, but it be what it be."
That makes it even wonkier. Not sure, but if I'm not mistaken, the Last Stag isn't even a stag beetle. And in any case, it only showcases what I said about size scaling bugs in Hollow Knight being incredibly imprecise.
 
I agree that scaling to nails or the stag is incorrect in itself. However, while they are bug people and not photorealistic bugs, nothing else suggests to us that they're bigger than normal bugs.

One has to consider some minor side things, such as the fact that most characters can jump really high up in the air, or that there are no trees anywhere, or anything else of natural origin that suggests larger size.
 
Oh, and there's a lot of grass that's as tall as the characters.
 
But those minor side things don't really indicate that. Jumping high, even when minor enemies can do so, is a staple of platformers and Metroidvanias. Having no trees is a question of location (most of Hollow Knight happens in dry areas or locations where trees simply wouldn't be suitable to grow, such as underground - even Greenpath, the greenest area, is located underground, and the vegetarion is mostly bushes and moss) and style. And again, that is placing the order backwards: Until there is proof of things of natural origin suggesting a smaller size, we ought to consider them normal-sized, as we do with any fictional universe. And there is plenty of real-life grass-like vegetation who reaches up to the size of people, and ironically, they do grow in some places akin to Hollow Knight's.

In a sidenote that is probably unrelated, there are some things that are actually compared to trees in the game, both the White Queen and the Dream Tree are, although I think in both of these cases as a metaphor or theme.
 
None of those are trees, except for maybe Isma's, but I'm pretty sure that's just Isma's body. They're just plants. Vines in Isma's Grove, and bushes in the Lake of Unn. Not sure what Hornet's are called, but they certainly don't look like trees.

Also, no, the world of Hollow Knight is nowhere near dry. As the City of Tears shows us, and as hinted by areas like the Queen's Gardens and Mosspath, it's probably humid as **** in most of it. Though places like Kingdom's Edge are far drier. And even in such a desertic place, where grass would absolutely not grow that tall, there is grass taller than the Knight. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p...HTxfLU9Cgv_Ulw3L71lP1QFhcRnTIm_zQ2qtU-cKFDOao
 
Eh, fair point. To me some of those really look like trees, but fair enough.

I didn't mean to say that the world in Hollow Knight is dry, it really isn't (Re-reading what I wrote, I must apologize, it was my bad). I meant to say that even in very dry places in the real world, very large, grass-like vegetation can grow. Larger than people. And that was exactly my point on the desertic place.
 
I understand that, but vegetation in Hollow Knight is consistently as tall as the people inhabiting it, even in darker places with little sunlight.
 
A question more like, why we assumed bugs are so little? Like, there is nothing to compare. For example in Pixar and dreamworks cartoons about bugs we simply understand that bugs are bug sized due to humans/Human sized constructions. But in hollow knight as I know there's nothing so big or small to compare. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Edit: Nevermind.
 
Oleggator said:
A question more like, why we assumed bugs are so little? Like, there is nothing to compare. For example in Pixar and dreamworks cartoons about bugs we simply understand that bugs are bug sized due to humans/Human sized constructions. But in hollow knight as I know there's nothing so big or small to compare. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Edit: Nevermind.
Click to expand...
I’ve played the game extensively and know the lore very well, and there really isn’t, so that was weird
 
Once again, the vegetation is consistently way too oversized.
 
unless that tree is stated to be a tree and what kind it is, we cannot hold it to the same size of an actual tree, you can’t scale off things that don’t even have context, or the vegetation just grew large? Like redwood trees, just because vegetation is big, doesn’t mean that the characters aren’t human sized. Oh and then you take into account that the knight is a child, people like isma and the hollow knight tower over grass like that, just like a human would....
 
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I think scaling the knight to a human infant would work well, considering that the reason The hollow knight grew in size is because he was trained and raised, the knight could most certainly become as large as the hollow knight, albeit maybe smaller because he wouldn’t be able to be trained to “prime form” and he is also comparable to an infant standing next and adult(hollow knight)
 
Whycantinamemyself said:
unless that tree is stated to be a tree and what kind it is, we cannot hold it to the same size of an actual tree, you can’t scale off things that don’t even have context, or the vegetation just grew large? Like redwood trees, just because vegetation is big, doesn’t mean that the characters aren’t human sized. Oh and then you take into account that the knight is a child, people like isma and the hollow knight tower over grass like that, just like a human would....
Click to expand...
They're not trees, they're moss, and vines, and grass, and yet they're consistently oversized. Even considering the Knight's 0.75 times as tall as the normal citizen, the fact that grass is consistently super-tall, even in semi-desertic areas, stays there.

The options are

1) Bugs are human-sized, Plants are ridicolously large. No explaination for the latter.

2) Plants are normal-sized, bugs are bug-sized. The latter isn't our usual assumption, but this way there's no logical issues.
 
were only talking about the knight, there is consistently much much taller and larger characters than the knight, that tower over “consistently oversized plants”
 
Except for possibly vegetation size, there is no evidence against these being human sized, and this is a fictional world, so even that is iffy.
 
Whycantinamemyself said:
were only talking about the knight, there is consistently much much taller and larger characters than the knight, that tower over “consistently oversized plants”
Click to expand...
That would end up with the knight having Small Size anyway, you know?

Anyway, the average bugman isn't any taller than The Knight, actually. I'm speaking of the average, grey enemies at the beginning of the game, that were the inhabitants of the crossroads, and the rich-looking dudes in the right half of the City of Tears. Unless you wanna say those are all children?

And yes, of course plants can be big in a videogame, but it's very clearly indication that the bugs are bug-sized here.
 
An author statement would be nice but they've been very quiet on the subject.

Well, there is one statement, but...



"You may catch glimpses of Hornet during your exploration of Hallownest, although she always seems to be one or two steps ahead of you. If you do manage to catch up with her, be wary! Her needle can cut a bug down from thirty yards."

30 yards is about 27 meters. So, we should probably assume they ****** up, and not that every one of the bugs is dozens of meters tall.

I know this is a fan calculation and theory, but it's an interesting read if nothing else. Even scaling it to her max-length needle throw, Hornet would end up being 5+ meters tall.
 
Well....
Hmm....
Uhhhh...
This probably could work I guess?
Very interesting tbh. Maybe to call some people for help out here? There's bunch of times where those kinds of manuals saved situation, so maybe this wouldn't be an exception?
 
Yeah the knight should have small size, but characters like the hollow knight should definitly be larger than 2 feet, because theres an actual post from team cherry that says that she can ”cut down a bug from 30 yards” oh **** didn’t see yours, but im sure that it is canon, it makes sense, theres a calculation based off this that gives the knight 1 foot, and why should we assume they ****** up? If they were meters tall we couldn’t tell, because there isn’t any statements about size, so for all we know, they could be meters tall, but i think 1 foot is generous for hornet and he knight
 
And that hornet usually doesn’t use her need at full length, so They aren’t meters tall, id say that the knight should be upgraded to the size of those small rectangular trashcans, about 1 foot or a little taller, and the hollow knight should be around 2 feet tall, with the shade lord being around 4 feet tall because hes reaaaallly big
 
Yeh😅 so what do we agree on, i say 1 foot knight and hornet, 2 feet for radiance(almost 3 feet for the moth)and hollow knight, and 3 feet for shade lord, make sense? Then theres boon.. which is much much larger than anything else alive in the game
 
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