Homura vs Vecna

[SomebodyData]

So her presence was mind haxxing everything? I'm confused. If you're saying her presence isn't mind haxxing, then why would you be scaling it?

 

[FateAlbane]

@SD I meant that the LoP without even trying can affect the entire cosmology of the verse with her presence alone.

Above it was claimed that Vecna resisted Memory hax from the LoP.

I'm saying "If this statement is true, then it's enough to resist. I don't know how true said statement is however or the context since as far as I understood from previous explanations LoP >>>>>> Vecna."

 

[Kaltias]

Just for reference, Homura = Madoka = UKG >>>>>>> AoC (literally a side effect of her curses entering the multiverse while restrained) = 2-A.

Or Homura = Madoka = 2 multiverses, the one that's higher.

 

[Schnee_One]

=UKG?

 

[Kaltias]

Yes? That revision happened a while ago

 

[FateAlbane]

So I have just checked it out (not anywhere, just on their profiles here) and the LoP that Vecna apparently resisted was the restricted one.

Vecna was also apparently nerfed to hell and back in order to resist it (I think it was about nulling his everything to human level or something to that effect).

So someone might want to argue this, but as far as I'm understanding it from looking at profiles it kind of doesn't look like enough/or not applicable to this situation.

Note: Again, keep in mind that I'm just looking at profiles as I don't know how it went in the history. What I'm saying may be wrong/false.

 

[SomebodyData]

This might be off-topic, but did we ever decide what we would consider the minds of LoC Assistants / Magicals Girls in Heaven? Because the fact that the Assistants could contain the memories of Ultimate Madoka without going insane + being aware of the other timelines, including those of the World of the Witches made me think they may be aware on a level almost comparable to UM. Which in turn, would affect Homura's mind manip potency.

 

[Kaltias]

I don't think that we ever did.

Although, does it change much in the grand scheme of things? Either an individual magical girl has a mind that can see the entire multiverse (and I don't think that they normally do that), or it's overall the same.

Infinite number of people seeing finite timelines sounds the same as one person viewing infinite timeline

 

[SomebodyData]

I mean, it would basically just double the mind manip potency, which would be nice.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

According to Azzy, her hax/power is good enough to rewrite literally everything in the verse to the point where it goes next edition. It includes Law and Conceptual scale to it too.

But that's strange, wasn't LoP like way above Vecna?

Did he really resist her or was she restricting herself or something?

He resisted her, but he did not resist the full extent of her power.

Vecna had some degree of protection from the Serpent, a being who is supposedly comparable to the Lady. This protection allowed him to resist enough of her power and anchor himself in Sigil (her extradimensional city). Vecna was able to resist enough of her power that, should the Lady unrestrict herself and use enough power to get rid of Vecna, this would end up destroying the multiverse (which she was trying to prevent).

Likewise, if she released the seals on Sigil and let a bunch of gods in to fight Vecna for her, this also couldn't guarantee the safety of the multiverse, which Vecna had already begun to destabilize.

That's why the campaign's party of PCs have to be the ones to stop Vecna. Not because the Lady can't but because she can't do so without also destroying what she wished to protect.

 

[Kaltias]

So basically the degree of 2-A of the LoP is "2-A while heavily restricted"/"Far above baseline 2-A Greater Deities"?

If so, i'd say that it should be in the same league as the PMMM god tiers not named AoC, given that they scale far above the baseline feat of the latter (who is basically UKG's baseline feat while heavily restricted anyway)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Kal

Her restricted scale is somewhere around "Could kill one of the multiverse's most influential and powerful Greater Deities with a single thought" and also likely "Likely superior to Orcus/Tenebrous with the Last Word, who was deemed 'invincible' even by a gathering of many Greater Deities, and was able to kill each of them with a single word".

Keep in mind that Vecna's power does not scale to this, but his durability and resistance does, to some degree.

 

[FateAlbane]

That's why the campaign's party of PCs have to be the ones to stop Vecna. Not because the Lady can't but because she can't do so without also destroying what she wished to protect.

So like when we try to save an insect out of pity/compassion but it's too small so we end up killing it by accident instead?

 

[FateAlbane]

Anyways, if Vecna does scale to that in resistance to some degree, I take it that he resists it here enough to not go insta-dumb.

Whether he might be affected later down the road may be debatable, but as far as I understand I feel safe to say now that I don't think he would be instantly haxxed with his resistances being as they are.

So the match does happen.

 

[Kaltias]

I dunno, it's weird.

Restricted LoP is definitely above Homura, but Vecna doesn't fully scale apparently.

So it's something like Akuma Homura's mind hax > Homulilly's mind hax > Madoka's resistance > UKG's mind hax.

While Vecna's resistance is a bit more complex to define (It's not on the profile btw, it should be added before using it as an argument).

Also, what's Vecna's own degree of 2-A, if that doesn't scale from LoP? Baseline-ish?

Anyway @Zach, I can ask you what prevents Homura from turning him into a 10-B too. What's his counter to that?

 

[FateAlbane]

Bump.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

@Kaltias

Is that power nullification? Because that's super common in DnD, especially with taking away magic.

 

[Kaltias]

It's actually conceptual manipulation that separates your normal human self from your tier 2 self. She can "extract" abstracts from the concept that they embody basically

 

[Udlmaster]

Couple of things, for one, Vecna is immune to Mind-Altering affects:

http://home.nitkin.net/dndbooks/DaD_DietiesAndDemigods.pdf

Page 94

"Divine Immunities: Ability damage, ability drain, acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, energy drain, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation, imprisonment, banishment."

Additionally, Vecna isn't a God of just 1 domain, which are his concepts, Vecna is the God of 3, meaning she'd have to somehow do this 3 times, that's implying that Vecna doesn't do something by then, before he loses his domains, but even then, he still would be a God and would passively get back those Domains as he has the Divine Ranks, which are what classifies Gods as what level Gods, for the Source I am using (Which his the Cannon 3.5E guidebook) he's only an Intermediate God, Greater Gods gain additional levels in their classes, around 4-10 additional levels and also have a Divine Rank of 20.

So yeah, Vecna isn't going to be affected by her Mind Manipulation, as the Lady of Pain couldn't do it in her Restricted form which by just speaking words, created the 3rd edition.

 

[Kaltias]

Is each one of these domains the size of two multiverses, because if not, Homura pulls him out of all 3 the domains.

He also won't get his power back, as he becomes an entity separated from his domains, who simply work without him (like the LoC with Madoka).

 

[Kaltias]

Also, pretty sure that the one who caused the change of edition was the unrestricted LoP, given that it's the feat making her comparable to Ao

 

[Udlmaster]

The Domains are Multiversal Domains, they're Evil, Knowledge and Magic. Also, as his Divine Rank wasn't changed in anyway, he'd automatically gain those domains back, even if he was seperated from them, he's automatically get them back, as well as he's a trasendant being, not spawned as a God, his powers are his own and not connected to his domains, taking his domains away just means that for a brief moment, he would lose absolute power over them before they come back to him.

And Vecna isn't Madoka or LoC either, he's not reliant on his Domains to exist for him to have power.

As for the Change in Edition, I was more so talking about the Lady of Pain generally, not so much her specific forms, at that point.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, for context on how powerful the Gods of D&D are, the Demigods, which are fodder to the Lesser Gods, while being in Sigil, passively hurt the Seal which binds the Multiverse together, their pressence passively destroys the Multiverse, quote from Die, Vecna, Die!: "The Lady of Pain is reluctant to allow any beings as powerful as demigods into Sigil, lest their very presence hasten Vecna's plan. However, minutes before Vecna's total victory, she gambles it all and sends in a sortie of four to five demigods (who wait eagerly outside Sigil in the Outlands for just such an opportunity). Can the demigods take down Vecna before their own presence, combined with Vecna's, dissolves Sigil? They have 2d6+30 rounds before the current multiversal order irretrievably fails."

So we get context on the power of the LoP's power and Gods, as Demigods who are considered Mortals to even the Lesser Gods, passively hurt the Seal which is keeping the Multiverse together.

 

[Kaltias]

Madoka doesn't rely on anything. Madoka lost her powers because Homura rewrote the rule of the multiverse that she was a part of.

Her power is writing a rule that says "Vecna is a normal human". He isn't any kind of god anymore.

 

[Udlmaster]

Yes, but would that work on Vecna? As when the Multiverse reset for 3e, Vecna retained his Godhood, when he was supposed to Reset, he wasn't, and this is by Unrestricted LoP.

 

[Kaltias]

And did the LoP specifically try to take away his powers?

 

[Udlmaster]

Well, she specifically tried to reset the Multiverse, and a Multiverse resetting means that Vecna should have been reset to being a Mortal, but he wasn't, he remained.

 

[Kaltias]

I mean, that has nothing to do with power null, it's just acausality

 

[FateAlbane]

@Kal Not disregarding Homura's separation but - and do correct me on this if I'm wrong, as it has been a while since I last looked at PMMM - based on what UDL said

>>> he'd automatically gain those domains back, even if he was seperated from them, he's automatically get them back, as well as he's a trasendant being, not spawned as a God, his powers are his own and not connected to his domains, taking his domains away just means that for a brief moment, he would lose absolute power over them before they come back to him. <<<

wouldn't the Vecna arguably have a chance at recovering his stats like Madoka at the end of Rebellion before Homura went and Memory haxxed her again? It sounds like more or less the same thing that made Homura freak out for a moment there.

 

[Udlmaster]

But the thing is, it's not Time Manipulation or such, the LoP is setting the very laws of the Multiverse, imagine like a IPhone factroy reset.

 

[Udlmaster]

@FateAbane

I could have sworn you was a Mod, Admin or Manager etc.

Did something happen while I was away?

 

[Kaltias]

@Fate

I mean, kinda? The same would probably happen, just swap Vecna and Madoka.

Point is that Homura can interrupt the "gaining back your powers" part like she did with Madoka, so if she pulls that off, he won't regain them anytime soon.

There is also the issue about Homura not having any real interest in keeping him alive after depowering him

 

[FateAlbane]

@Udl I could have been a discussion mod, but my general lack of time and hiatuses made me refuse the position as I wouldn't be able to fully work on it.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Kaltias Alrighty. It was just me making a matter of comparison, because of the whole "scale of hax x scale of resistance" question being a central point in this discussion so far.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"Vecna had some degree of protection from the Serpent, a being who is supposedly comparable to the Lady."

I'll just expand on what I said above in order to clarify, if that helps.

This "Greater God" version of Vecna had more direct protection from the Serpent, a being who has essentially been his patron for a long time. The Serpent, much like the Lady, is something well beyond even a god (as you could probably tell by it acting as essentially the focus of worship for an actual god), which is saying something when you consider that Greater Deities act as fundamental forces across the multiverse.

The power that was granted to Vecna as a Greater God was not enough to resist the full might of the Lady of Pain (as he'd kinda actually need to be the Serpent, in order to do that), but it was enough to strengthen himself enough that she could not use any more power without destroying the multiverse herself. For reference, the Lady was fully capable of killing the Greater Power known as Aoskar (who at the time was one of the absolute most powerful and influential in all the multiverse) with a single thought, eradicating him beyond any possible hope for return, even despite his area of influence.

She would have used notably more effort against Vecna in hopes of either killing him or punting him from Sigil, but it was not enough without endangering the multiverse even more than it already was. I will again stress that completely murdering the god tied to the very idea of "portals" and "doorways" across the multiverse didn't endanger it in any way, and also took the Lady zero actual effort. So Greater God Vecna's resistances are clearly well beyond the normal scope of a Greater Power.

He loses at the end of the story because a bunch of characters who are essentially demigods (your party) stroll in with the extremely specific anti-Vecna weapons they've accumulated throughout the adventure and beat the shit out of his avatar, which ejects his essence from Sigil forever.


Actual power is harder to pin down. He's essentially Greater Deity level at this point, but he may also be notably higher. The adventure mentions that if everything fails and the multiverse does actually collapse, it's either possible that Vecna actually does become its new supreme architect, or that the next level of ascension beyond Greater God still remains entirely out of his reach. This choice is left up to the DM, so there's no truly canon description of what happens or how powerful he'd actually become, so that's not as relevant, here.

 

[Udlmaster]

There is also a massive amount of Prep that was done to do all of that as well, such as destroying specific Temples to Vecna, fighting a few of his High Ranking worshippers and getting the pieces of Vecna, specifically two, his eye and his Hand, which elude him due to their nature as Artifacts.

And it was stated that we wouldn't have been able to beat Vecna without them. (Them being his "Achilles heel")

It's also noted that if the Players fail to stop Vecna, that the Lady of Pain will send him 4-5 Demigods, and it's further noted that the pressence of the Demigods affects the stability of the Multiverse (The Seal) by just being there, this is of note because the Demigods are like mortals to even the Lesser Gods. So, even the lowest of the Low for Deities passively damage and unstablize a Seal that is keeping the Multiverse together, (So something with Multiversal Power and Defence is being passively destroyed by a mere Demigod's pressence.), this just goes to show the power degrees of these beings.