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The Honkai verse (including Yog-Sothoth's Outer God key from GGZ) got downgraded from 1-A to Low 1-A recently, and I plan to get the profiles downgraded even further (to 12D or 11D for now). The justifications for Low 1-A can be found here, although the R>F statements are no longer taken as valid, only being interpreted as analogical descriptions of higher-dimensional superiority instead. Anyways, it’s probably best to get the biggest “evidence” for Low 1-A out of the way from the get-go: absolute infinity in Honkai. As the argument goes, Low 1-A is the Von Neumann universe, absolute infinity scales to or above the Von Neumann universe, and False God Otto scales to absolute infinity. Therefore, everyone who scales to or above False God Otto scales to Low 1-A. [EDIT: My argument doesn't necessarily rely on surpassing Otto himself, but quantitatively surpassing absolute infinities in general. Flamescion Kiana destroyed Otto's imaginary space, and Kalpas had the power to destroy an imaginary space, imaginary spaces being said to be absolutely infinite. Yet, the power of Flamescion Kiana and Kalpas, respectively, are both quantitatively surpassed. Even if you assert that nobody scales above Otto himself, there are still cases where people quantitatively surpass so-called "absolutely infinite" levels of power.] Simple, right? Not so fast. The whole point of “absolute infinity” is to be the pinnacle of all quantities, standing above any other quantity. The issue here is that many characters in Honkai such as Kiana, Kevin and Elysia have quantitatively exceeded this level of power ("slightly" exceeding someone's non-qualitative power is absolutely quantitative, and qualitative superiority in Honkai has already been rejected anyways). That’s obviously self-defeating and entirely disproves the notion that False God Otto actually had absolute infinite power. If there is an absolute infinite, it must by definition stand above all other quantities entirely. If something were to quantitatively exceed the absolute infinite, that just proves that it wasn’t actually absolutely infinite to begin with.
Another thing of note is that Otto’s claims about his power being absolutely infinite aren’t even particularly credible to begin with. As pointed out in his profile, he claimed to have transcended Herrschers, becoming a god even in comparison to them. Yet, the Herrschers were obviously able to defeat him, matching and even exceeding his power. My point here is that he’s full of shit and we shouldn’t scale Honkai to low outer based off of one statement he made that’s contradicted within the verse anyways or based off of a statement that doesn't even say that Otto's power is absolutely infinite in the first place, just a "sign" of the absolute infinite, whatever that means.
[on top of this, I've already discussed this topic with Ultima on discord and he agrees with this downgrade, so he might be able to provide further arguments about "absolute infinity" and why it isn't even a coherent quantitative concept in the first place]
Now that that's out of the way, let's examine the other justifications given for Honkai's Low 1-A scaling. It has been pointed out that in the Honkai series, it is mentioned that in terms of transfinite numbers, the Honkai on Earth is "around the lowest cardinal number and far from seeing the Imaginary Tree that's also infinite in scale in a transfinite sense." The scaling that has been derived from this is the idea that the Imaginary Tree scales to "transfinite layers of transcendence," and is thus High 1-B or even Low 1-A. However, this scan doesn't say any of that. All that it says is that the Imaginary Tree as a whole is on a higher level of infinity than the Earth, and that's just Low 2-C. There is no mention of the Imaginary tree supposedly being an infinite number of transfinite levels above Earth, nor is there any mention of any higher transfinite hierarchies that the Imaginary Tree scales to at all.
And here’s one of the other main justifications: Project Stigma. It’s claimed that scans about Project Stigma prove that there’s an infinite hierarchy of layered stories in the Honkai cosmology, each transcending the last. But this simply isn’t the case, and it’s clear to anyone who puts their biases aside and actually reads the text. Narratives are described as conceptual things that shape the world. Project Stigma is a narrative meant to control all other narratives. But that’s about it. There are a few mentions of fiction, but the essential elements of an upwards R>F-like hierarchy are never shown here. There is mention of humans creating civilization from fiction, but there is no mention of things viewing baseline reality as fiction, transcending it as something that is more real. In fact, many of these narratives simply exist parallel to each other, with the only major quantitative difference being their complexity (unless you really want to argue that the implication is that there’s a higher dimensional difference between a resort hotel and a cave dwelling in Honkai). Even Project Stigma was only meant to “govern” all other stories rather than dimensionally transcend them. At best, you can make a 2-layered downward R>F hierarchy here: baseline reality and fiction below it. But that obviously doesn’t scale anywhere.
So what do we make of this? Well, the only valid scaling left that we have here is to 12D. Or 11D? But yeah, no Low 1-A or even High 1-B.
Agree: DarkDragonMedeus, Ultima_Reality, Reiner04, Elizhaa
Disagree:
Neutral:
Another thing of note is that Otto’s claims about his power being absolutely infinite aren’t even particularly credible to begin with. As pointed out in his profile, he claimed to have transcended Herrschers, becoming a god even in comparison to them. Yet, the Herrschers were obviously able to defeat him, matching and even exceeding his power. My point here is that he’s full of shit and we shouldn’t scale Honkai to low outer based off of one statement he made that’s contradicted within the verse anyways or based off of a statement that doesn't even say that Otto's power is absolutely infinite in the first place, just a "sign" of the absolute infinite, whatever that means.
[on top of this, I've already discussed this topic with Ultima on discord and he agrees with this downgrade, so he might be able to provide further arguments about "absolute infinity" and why it isn't even a coherent quantitative concept in the first place]
Now that that's out of the way, let's examine the other justifications given for Honkai's Low 1-A scaling. It has been pointed out that in the Honkai series, it is mentioned that in terms of transfinite numbers, the Honkai on Earth is "around the lowest cardinal number and far from seeing the Imaginary Tree that's also infinite in scale in a transfinite sense." The scaling that has been derived from this is the idea that the Imaginary Tree scales to "transfinite layers of transcendence," and is thus High 1-B or even Low 1-A. However, this scan doesn't say any of that. All that it says is that the Imaginary Tree as a whole is on a higher level of infinity than the Earth, and that's just Low 2-C. There is no mention of the Imaginary tree supposedly being an infinite number of transfinite levels above Earth, nor is there any mention of any higher transfinite hierarchies that the Imaginary Tree scales to at all.
And here’s one of the other main justifications: Project Stigma. It’s claimed that scans about Project Stigma prove that there’s an infinite hierarchy of layered stories in the Honkai cosmology, each transcending the last. But this simply isn’t the case, and it’s clear to anyone who puts their biases aside and actually reads the text. Narratives are described as conceptual things that shape the world. Project Stigma is a narrative meant to control all other narratives. But that’s about it. There are a few mentions of fiction, but the essential elements of an upwards R>F-like hierarchy are never shown here. There is mention of humans creating civilization from fiction, but there is no mention of things viewing baseline reality as fiction, transcending it as something that is more real. In fact, many of these narratives simply exist parallel to each other, with the only major quantitative difference being their complexity (unless you really want to argue that the implication is that there’s a higher dimensional difference between a resort hotel and a cave dwelling in Honkai). Even Project Stigma was only meant to “govern” all other stories rather than dimensionally transcend them. At best, you can make a 2-layered downward R>F hierarchy here: baseline reality and fiction below it. But that obviously doesn’t scale anywhere.
So what do we make of this? Well, the only valid scaling left that we have here is to 12D. Or 11D? But yeah, no Low 1-A or even High 1-B.
Agree: DarkDragonMedeus, Ultima_Reality, Reiner04, Elizhaa
Disagree:
Neutral:
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