How many layers into Boundless are those verses?

[Onirouge]

• Self-Reference ENGINE
• Unsong
• Twin Peaks
• Cthulhu Mythos
• World of Darkness
• SCP
• The Elder Scrolls

 

[Excellence616]

• Self-Reference ENGINE
• Unsong
• Twin Peaks
• Cthulhu Mythos
• World of Darkness
• SCP
• The Elder Scrolls

Pretty sure Boundless have no layers

 

[Onirouge]

Pretty sure Boundless have no layers

Boundless doesn’t stop at characters who transcends High 1-A in the same way that High 1-A transcends 1-A. That’s just Baseline Boundless. Tier 0 has no end point.

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

It doesn’t really matter anymore if we’re being honest. Whether there’s layers or not (pretty sure there isn’t) but the new revisions are done and ultima only has to finish writing the FAQs page. SCP especially it’s getting nuked (thank god). With the new revisions there’s only boundless. No layers. No multiple characters getting the tier.

 

[Onirouge]

It doesn’t really matter anymore if we’re being honest. Whether there’s layers or not (pretty sure there isn’t) but the new revisions are done and ultima only has to finish writing the FAQs page. SCP especially it’s getting nuked (thank god). With the new revisions there’s only boundless. No layers. No multiple characters getting the tier.

But Tier 0 is just a purely endless extension of the Tiering System, it has no end point... The Tiering System does not stop at characters that transcend an infinity of High 1-A layers, there can be an infinity of Tier 0 layers transcended by a higher hierarchy and so on...

And so that means that even if a Tier 0 character transcends an infinity of Tier 0 layers, he will simply be treated as a Baseline 0 character?

 

[Abu2411]

But Tier 0 is just a purely endless extension of the Tiering System, it has no end point... The Tiering System does not stop at characters that transcend an infinity of High 1-A layers, there can be an infinity of Tier 0 layers transcended by a higher hierarchy and so on...

And so that means that even if a Tier 0 character transcends an infinity of Tier 0 layers, he will simply be treated as a Baseline 0 character?

I think the Tier 0 revisions have passed successfully? If so, Tier 0 is no longer a "purely endless extension of the Tiering System", its now a specific tier for characters who fulfil the requirements of being a Monad. Because of this, all Tier 0 characters are equal since they're pretty much the same thing in essence.

 

[Onirouge]

I think the Tier 0 revisions have passed successfully? If so, Tier 0 is no longer a "purely endless extension of the Tiering System", its now a specific tier for characters who fulfil the requirements of being a Monad. Because of this, all Tier 0 characters are equal since they're pretty much the same thing in essence.

So now a character just has to be a monadic totality without a cosmological context and he will immediately qualify as Tier 0? Even if his only feat is just, for example, to be "a totality encompassing all of existence and all abstractions" even if his verse is only 1-C or 2-C?

And so if a character transcends an infinity of High 1-A layers, he would still not be considered Tier 0? Even if a character transcends the previous charachter in the same way that Baseline 0 transcends High 1-B? Just because these characters are not Monads?

 

[Rikimarox2]

If we go by the old system, IIRC SCP had something something infinite layers? While WoD was higher than that.

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

So now a character just has to be a monadic totality without a cosmological context and he will immediately qualify as Tier 0? Even if his only feat is just, for example, to be "a totality encompassing all of existence and all abstractions" even if his verse is only 1-C or 2-C?

And so if a character transcends an infinity of High 1-A layers, he would still not be considered Tier 0? Even if a character transcends the previous charachter in the same way that Baseline 0 transcends High 1-B? Just because these characters are not Monads?

First paragraph: Not really lly. If the character is beyond all dualities, distinctions, attributes, etc and pervade throughout everything and transcend it they will be tier 0.

Second paragraph; somewhat correct from my understanding. You cant reach the tier by simply stacking and stacking with scaling brain rot I guess. Reaching the tier is more of a philosophical and or theological discussion rather than a powerscaling one, tier 0s don’t fight either as that would betray the tier. There’s also a new tier. 2 actually. High 1-B+ for all the uncountable infinite dimensional verses with set theory. Then there’s High 1-A+

 

[Weaver26]

First paragraph: Not really lly. If the character is beyond all dualities, distinctions, attributes, etc and pervade throughout everything and transcend it they will be tier 0.

Second paragraph; somewhat correct from my understanding. You can reach the tier by simply stacking and stacking with scaling brain rot I guess. Reaching the tier is more of a philosophical and or theological discussion rather than a powerscaling one, tier 0s don’t fight either as that would betray the tier. There’s also a new tier. 2 actually. High 1-B+ for all the uncountable infinite dimensional verses with set theory. Then there’s High 1-A+

Let's say if a character is a monad and described as exactly and perfectly that way but there's not much in cosmology. Let's say its verse is only High 3-A at max. In that kind of case, will this character be considered as tier 0?

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

Let's say if a character is a monad and described as exactly and perfectly that way but there's not much in cosmology. Let's say its verse is only High 3-A at max. In that kind of case, will this character be considered as tier 0?

If it’s perfectly how Ultima described it, then yes they’d be tier 0

 

[Weaver26]

If it’s perfectly how Ultima described it, then yes they’d be tier 0

I read the tier 0 revision thread and tried my best to understand it but still I can't get a grasp of it except it being beyond duality or something like that. Would you mind explaining it? And how that description transcends than other higher cosmologies?

 

[OMNIVERSAL-KING]

• Self-Reference ENGINE
• Unsong
• Twin Peaks
• Cthulhu Mythos
• World of Darkness
• SCP
• The Elder Scrolls

SCP is dead
After tiering revision, I am that I am and Yog sothoth should be Boundless (not sure about supreme beings of other verses) / there are no layeres in tier 0 + tier 0 can now only be achieved by supreme or strongest being of verse and has no ups and downs (all tier 0 beings are equal)

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

I read the tier 0 revision thread and tried my best to understand it but still I can't get a grasp of it except it being beyond duality or something like that. Would you mind explaining it? And how that description transcends than other higher cosmologies?

I'll give an example IRL.

Then he began to teach me, saying: the One has all power. Nothing rules over it. It is God and it is a Parent, the Father of the Fullness (Pleroma). It presides over the Fullness, the spotless light that no eyes can see. It is the Invisible Spirit.

To call it a god, or to say that it is like a god, is not fitting, for it transcends every god. Nothing is above it or greater than it. Nothing that is inferior to it can contain it, for it contains everything within itself. It is eternally self-sufficient. It is perfect fullness, and it has never lacked anything that would make it more complete. Its light is utter light.

The One is unlimited, because there was never anything that could limit it; unfathomable, because there was never anything that could fathom it; immeasurable, because there was never anything that could measure it; invisible, because it has never been seen; eternal, because it has always existed and always will exist; ineffable, because no one has ever understood it well enough to describe it; and unnamable, because there was never anything that could give it a name.

It is infinite light, holy and pure. Its perfection cannot be uttered or corrupted. Yet it is not just perfection, blessedness, or divinity – it is far greater than all of these. It is neither corporeal nor incorporeal, neither large nor small. No one can say how much of it there is, or how it can be classified, because no one can comprehend it. It does not exist in the way that other things exist, for it is far superior to them. But it is not superior to them; rather, it exists apart from them, apart from time. For whatever exists in time has been conditioned by another. No one gave it a span of time, for no one can give it anything. That which was first to exist does not need anything from anyone else in order to exist. All it sees is its own perfect light.

The One is majesty and total purity, eternity that grants eternity, life that grants life, blessedness that grants blessedness, gnosis that grants gnosis, goodness that grants goodness, mercy that grants mercy, grace that grants grace. But the One does not have any of these things. Rather, what it has to give is inexhaustible, inextinguishable light.

What can be said about it? Its eternal realm cannot be corrupted. Its peace, its silence, its rest cannot be disturbed. It is before and above all that exists, and by its goodness it sustains all. We cannot know what cannot be spoken of or measured, except through the one who has come from the light of the Father. Such a one showed us these things.

The One rules all. Nothing has authority over it.
It is the God.
It is Father of everything,
Holy One
The invisible one over everything.
It is uncontaminated
Pure light no eye can bear to look within.

The One is the Invisible Spirit.
It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God.
It is more than just God.

Nothing is above it.
Nothing rules it.
Since everything exists within it
It does not exist within anything.
Since it is not dependent on anything
It is eternal.

It is absolutely complete and so needs nothing.
It is utterly perfect
Light.

The One is without boundaries
Nothing exists outside of it to border it
The One cannot be investigated
Nothing exists apart from it to investigate it
The One cannot be measured
Nothing exists external to it to measure it

The One cannot be seen
For no one can envision it
The One is eternal
For it exists forever
The One is inconceivable
For no one can comprehend it
The One is indescribable
For no one can put any words to it.

The One is infinite light
Purity
Holiness
Stainless,

The One is incomprehensible
Perfectly free from corruption.
Not “perfect”
Not “blessed”
Not “divine”
But superior to such concepts.
Neither physical nor unphysical
Neither immense nor infinitesimal
It is impossible to specify in quantity or quality
For it is beyond knowledge.

The One is not a being among other beings
It is vastly superior
But it is not “superior.”

It is outside of realms of being and time
For whatever is within realms of being was created
And whatever is within time had time allotted to it
The One receives nothing from anything.
It simply apprehends itself in its own perfect light

The One is majestic.
The One is measureless majesty

Chief of all Realms
Producing all realms

Light
Producing light

Life
Producing life

Blessedness
Producing blessedness

Knowledge
Producing knowledge

Good
Producing goodness

Mercy
Producing mercy

Generous
Producing generosity

[It does not “possess” these things.]

It gives forth light beyond measure, beyond comprehension.

[What can I say?]

His realm is eternal, peaceful, silent, resting, before everything.
He is the head of every realm sustaining each of them through goodness.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn-davies.html

A tier 0 is beyond all distinctions and attributes. Its not a being so to say but an ineffable all encompassing essence. The reason it transcends other cosmologies is because the cosmologies still have attributes and distinctions that can be applied. To a being who has no attributes you cannot simply stack dimensions to surpass it.

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

Elder Scrolls will remain tier 0 as well

 

[Onirouge]

I'll give an example IRL.


http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn-davies.html
A tier 0 is beyond all distinctions and attributes. Its not a being so to say but an ineffable all encompassing essence.

I'll give an example IRL.


http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn-davies.html

A tier 0 is beyond all distinctions and attributes. Its not a being so to say but an ineffable all encompassing essence.

If for example a character A is a Monad but a character B exists beyond its totality, and is not limited by the concept of monadic totality... In this case the character B is also Tier 0 or the character A is debunk as not being a Monad?

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

If for example a character A is a Monad but a character B exists beyond its totality, and is not limited by the concept of monadic totality... In this case the character B is also Tier 0 or the character A is debunk as not being a Monad?

Character A would be debunked yes, for nothing can be above it. As for the character B, it depends if that character has and is superior to attributes and distinctions

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

I'll give an example IRL.


http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn-davies.html

A tier 0 is beyond all distinctions and attributes. Its not a being so to say but an ineffable all encompassing essence. The reason it transcends other cosmologies is because the cosmologies still have attributes and distinctions that can be applied. To a being who has no attributes you cannot simply stack dimensions to surpass it.

adding more to this from Ultima's own words

A Tier 0 cannot have anything above it. That would make it a part of the realm of divisions and differentiations. A contradiction. By extension, it cannot have anything more fundamental than it, either. It cannot be conditioned by anything other than its own nature (In other words, it cannot be conditioned at all)

Bluntly speaking, there cannot be a numerical multiplicity of Tier 0 beings. Since it transcends all ontological divisions, it is not coherent to conceive of many Tier 0s separately existing "alongside" each other, so that one doesn't, so to speak, touch the other. This would entail that each of the beings in question is differentiated from the others by something it has, and the others don't, and vice-versa, which contradicts the premise of the tier to begin with. Since it is already not "a" being, much less can there be many beings of that same tier.

There can, however, be distinction within Tier 0 if these distinctions don't introduce a variety of essences and substances in isolation and self-exclusion from each other. For example, if there are two characters A and B, and A holds everything that B does, and vice-versa, not in a way where one simply "replicates" the things that the other has, as if they were clones, but where A and B themselves co-inhere in each other, so that they are wholly united.

A Tier 0 is utterly transcendent over any system of differences, divisions and inequalities. As such, it is not capable of change. Change is nothing but the progression from one state to another, which inherently signifies a division between the states in question. If a character is genuinely mutable, that means there exist divisions and inequalities in its "level" of existence, and therefore it is automatically disqualified from 0. Unless the change in question is somehow illusory, not reflecting anything in reality.

Consequently, a character cannot "become" Tier 0, at least in the sense of filling up a spot that wasn't there before (In other words: "There wasn't any Absolute before. Now there is"). This condition does not admit of loopholes: "This character technically came to be at Point X, but afterwards it retroactively always existed" is not an admissible way to bypass it. Naturally, then, a Tier 0 cannot have come into existence in a sequence where it first does not exist, and then exists.

It is, however, possible to "become" Tier 0 in cosmologies where any reality apart from the Tier 0 itself is ultimately illusory, and all beings are as such identical to it at the core. In such cases, it would not be an ordinary apotheosis so much as a "shedding" of all individuating characteristics, and therefore a return to the source.

Needless to say: Division in a Tier 0 is inadmissible. There is no such thing as a "fragment" of a Tier 0 in a literal sense, and neither is it coherent to think of things such as "Half the power of a Tier 0", or anything similar. Since it is also absolutely primal and irreducible, it cannot be "broken down" into more basic component parts, and neither is it possible for multiple characters to fuse in a way that the product of their powers (Even if greater than the sum of its parts) yields a Tier 0

Furthermore: While lower tiers permit a division between a character's statistics and the nature of their existence (e.g. A character can have High 1-B power but be physically 3-D), such a division is not possible in a Tier 0. However, a loophole of sorts is present if a character is, in some way, fully backed up by one. For example, if a character has the full favour of a Tier 0, who blesses and empowers them to be protected from all harm

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Ultima_Reality/thingy?useskin=fandomdesktop#How_to_Qualify

 

[Onirouge]

@FaxNovuuuuu From what I understand it’s basically a paradox in the same way as omnipotence. Something that cannot be used in fiction without making contradictions.

I really don't understand this new rule for Tier 0 characters. It's literally inapplicable in a work of fiction.

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

@FaxNovuuuuu From what I understand it’s basically a paradox in the same way as omnipotence. Something that cannot be used in fiction without making contradictions.

I really don't understand this new rule for Tier 0 characters. It's literally inapplicable in a work of fiction.

Ultima explains it in great detail on the page Linked above. He goes DEEEP into concepts such as logical omnipotentence and what not. There are also plenty of characters that do qualify for Tier 0. Like the Amaranth for example or the root

 

[Onirouge]

Ultima explains it in great detail on the page Linked above. He goes DEEEP into concepts such as logical omnipotentence and what not. There are also plenty of characters that do qualify for Tier 0. Like the Amaranth for example or the root

So which characters (other than the Amaranth and the Root) will be Tier 0 and which characters will no longer be Boundless? Will the Clear Light remain Boundless? And I AM THAT I AM will be the only Tier 0 charachter from World of Darkness?

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

So which characters (other than the Amaranth and the Root) will be Tier 0 and which characters will no longer be Boundless? Will the Clear Light remain Boundless? And I AM THAT I AM will be the only Tier 0 charachter from World of Darkness?

IATIA will likely remain boundless as nothing is beyond him and he transcends names and definitions, I’m not sure about clear light. As for other characters, we shall see when the mass revisions of downgrades and upgrades come. Man, I can’t wait for the chaos. The divine presence MIGHT be tier 0 but it’s DC so don’t get your hopes up, Marvel will remain the same pretty much, SCP is getting nuked off the wiki and even if it wasn’t they’d cap out at high 1-A (Vivec victims fr), and yeah. I’m sure there’s more verses with tier 0’s but those are the ones I’m aware of.

 

[Onirouge]

IATIA will likely remain boundless as nothing is beyond him and he transcends names and definitions, I’m not sure about clear light. As for other characters, we shall see when the mass revisions of downgrades and upgrades come. Man, I can’t wait for the chaos. The divine presence MIGHT be tier 0 but it’s DC so don’t get your hopes up, Marvel will remain the same pretty much, SCP is getting nuked off the wiki and even if it wasn’t they’d cap out at high 1-A (Vivec victims fr), and yeah. I’m sure there’s more verses with tier 0’s but those are the ones I’m aware of.

Ho, ok