I Was Caught up in a Hero Summoning but the Gods Break Logic

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Randomly thought to do this, even though I am distracted reading other series, but may as well make an argument for logic manipulation.

The characters would qualify via the law of noncontradiction imo, but I could be wrong.

World Creators​

Shiro and Makina both wanted to win a coin toss, so they manipulated the outcome where one of them got tails, the other head, however Makina and Shiro winning the coin toss can't exist simultaneously (Chapter 711), thus this caused a contradiction which was bending the principles and concepts of the world and would have destroyed it if not for Alice and co containing it (Chapter 710).

If accepted, this should give everyone on the level of World Creators logic manipulation.

The Epilogue​

If World Creators have it, then this is a redundant argument, however if not I think The Epilogue might also qualify.

Even if a being has the ability to nullify the abilities of Shallow Vernal, she would end the story of the being who can nullify the abilities of Shallow Vernal, even if there was being who can obliterate her at the very beginning of their encounter without giving her a chance to use her abilities, she would still end the being who obliterated Shallow Vernal, despite this being contradictory (Chapter 547).

Not a single person or thing can resist their, no matter what means they use or abilities they have, even if it was possible for Kuro to use the Prologue to make the impossible possible, making it possible to block the unblockable Epilogue, she would still only end up as a being who made it possible to block the Epilogue, and would still be ended (Chapter 636).

Faced with a being immune to or capable of dealing with the Epilogue, The Epilogue still brings them to their end (Chapter 1267).

As seen with the evidence here, The Epilogue is consistently stated to be able to do logically impossible stuff such as ending beings who are immune to the Epilogue. Now some of this might be explainable by things other than logic manipulation, such as Shiro still killing beings despite them nullifying her abilities or killing her before she uses them, you could say that happens because The Epilogue is a meta ability that perceives everything as fictional, it's outside the story, but to me I think these particular statements are meant as hypotheticals, to nullify the abilities of Shallow Vernal, you have to nullify The Epilogue, which is a meta ability, so you yourself would require some sort of meta ability, and it says even that person would still be ended despite all this being contradictory.

The same is true for The Prologue, of course so far in the story, The Prologue isn't on the level of The Epilogue, however the statement is clearly an hypothetical, that even if it were possible to block the unblockable Epilogue, Kuro would still just be a being who could block it and still be ended.

I think the last scan I posted is the most clear on the contradictions, this series has a clear hierarchy of power based on the characters "Omnipotence", quasi-omnipotence<omnipotence<omnipotent and omniscient, the author did a soft retcon on beyond omniscient and omnipotent, and just made it omnipotent and omniscient, regardless in the scan I posted it goes through the level of opponents facing off against the Epilogue, and says it brings them to their end, no one in the existing hierarchy can actually deal with the Epilogue, yet it says even if there was a being immune to The Epilogue or capable of dealing with it, they would still be brought to their end, even the strongest imaginable being would be no different. This is all obviously contradictory, because you can't simultaneously have a being immune to the Epilogue, and basically not immune to it, as The Epilogue still kills them.

In conclusion, The Epilogue would gain logic manipulation which makes it so that even if another 1-A entity tried to kill/nullify it, it would still kill them, which is hard to wrap my brain around, it's a nonsensical power.

This would also restore resistance negation to The Epilogue, and make Shiro's Last Story even more absurd, since not even The Epilogue can end it.

 

[Vietthai96]

however Makina and Shiro winning the coin toss can't exist simultaneously

You don't need logic for this lind contradiction, possibility paradox can do this as well without being actual logic. Paradox is contradiction, but time paradox, causal paradox, possibility paradox aren't logic, unless they was grounded by logic framework (though i argued this in the past but got rejected somehow)

Same with the Epilogue, you can create contradictory situation without actually touching literal logic. Other stuff about making impossoble possible is kind of common among fiction so it also do not qualify

So yeah, for now i can't see logic, though i will ping @DontTalkDT to see if he has other opinion

 

[Hecky2222]

though i argued this in the past but got rejected somehow

Viet is salty FRA

 

[Vietthai96]

Viet is salty FRA

 

[Hecky2222]

Bro I thought i was joking but Pegasius really did it lmaoo

 

[Vietthai96]

Bro I thought i was joking but Pegasius really did it lmaoo

I mean, you can certainly arguing contradiction to be logic, but with the way logic is evaluated right now idk how thing get accepted or not. I asked both Agnaa and DontTalkDT that if logic ground paradox then said paradox manipulation is logic hax and they said yes, but my argument was rejected. Then DT made a thread that contradiction was accepted as logic hax. So yeah at this point shit is just confusing

So for now i will just go with the safest route that simply contradiction isn't logic until proven otherwise

 

[Hecky2222]

I mean, you can certainly arguing contradiction to be logic, but with the way logic is evaluated right now idk how thing get accepted or not. I asked both Agnaa and DontTalkDT that if logic ground paradox then said paradox manipulation is logic hax and they said yes, but my argument was rejected. Then DT made a thread that contradiction was accepted as logic hax. So yeah at this point shit is just confusing

So for now i will just go with the safest route that simply contradiction isn't logic until proven otherwise

Son, you were arguing Causality Manipulation that creates contradiction. And ye causality by itself can make it.

DT straight up argued contradiction manipulation, idt they are same. Creating contradiction can be Logic Manipulation if they are manipulating to point "A and not A", if character can manipulate something like "Viet is femboy" and "Viet isn't femboy" to make contradictions it would break law of non-contradiction

I should send you to PSW prison to make you learn grounded logic so i will never hear "Breaking Law of Thoughts is High 1-A+" again

 

[Vietthai96]

Son, you were arguing Causality Manipulation that creates contradiction. And ye causality by itself can make it.

That causality contradiction is grounded by logic so.........

I should send you to PSW prison to make you learn grounded logic so i will never hear "Breaking Law of Thoughts is High 1-A+" again

I have no memory of this

 

[Hecky2222]

That causality contradiction is grounded by logic so.........

My femboy can live without one wanked ability

I have no memory of this

Final moments before getting killed by my mom

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

if character can manipulate something like "Viet is femboy" and "Viet isn't femboy" to make contradictions it would break law of non-contradiction

Logic hax of this level would easily be T0 without any further evidence

 

[Vietthai96]

Final moments before getting killed by my mom

Probably me, also not me

Logic hax of this level would easily be T0 without any further evidence

Logical gooning

 

[Hecky2222]

Bro I thought i was joking but Pegasius really did it lmaoo

Now we know @Celestial_Pegasus blatant author and listens to fandom

PEGASIUS MY DEAR AUTHOR GIVE US HIGH 1-A+ VERNAL AND MY SOUL IS YOURS

I will be personally debunking counterarguments from frauds like @Vietthai96 and agree with Pegasius High 1-A+ CRT cuz it would be mad funny

Anything for author of IaP to wank bro

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

PEGASIUS MY DEAR AUTHOR GIVE US HIGH 1-A+ VERNAL AND MY SOUL IS YOURS

Ok I should probably stop derailing the thread Ngl, idk enough about logic manip to give an opinion, so I'll wait for some knowledgeable staff to comment, but what Viet said seems reasonable here

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Ok I should probably stop derailing the thread Ngl, idk enough about logic manip to give an opinion, so I'll wait for some knowledgeable staff to comment, but what Viet said seems reasonable here

Was that emoji necessary?

 

[Justlol230]

I also concur, cuz I feel like Causality Manipulation would be enough? (They already also have CM, so lmfao)

Besides, Epilogue's strengths come from the fact it's a 1A compared to the rest of the verse (considering no one in the verse can scale to it), it's "logical bypass" feels more like a consequence of it being 1A rather than a proper logic manipulation ability.

I think it's fine to have resistance negation but otherwise, I pretty much agree with Femboy Viet. It's just a lil weird and, again, not much to go off of.

 

[Legacy30]

「まぁ、説明するとあの二人の神は、コインが落ちてくるまでの間互いの全能力を使って結果を操作しようとしていたわけです。ですが、表が出てシャローヴァナル様が勝つという結果と裏が出てエデンさんが勝つという結果は同時には存在しえない。そうなると力場の交差点で、事象の極大矛盾が発生して、理やら概念が湾曲を……」

"Well, to put it simply, while that coin was falling, those two gods were using every ounce of their power to manipulate the outcome. But you see, the result of heads showing and Shallow Vernal-sama winning cannot coexist with the result of tails showing and Eden-san winning. Because of that, at the intersection of their energy fields, a maximum event contradiction occurred, causing logic and concepts to distort..."

Principles in the verse is basically 理 (reason/logic) and it and concepts were distorted as a consequence of the contradiction of outcomes, not directly so. Suffice to say, CM could arguably not be responsible for this.

Don't really have much of an opinion on the outcome of this thread.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Whelp, it was worth a try, time to focus my attention elsewhere

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Shiro and Makina both wanted to win a coin toss, so they manipulated the outcome where one of them got tails, the other head, however Makina and Shiro winning the coin toss can't exist simultaneously (Chapter 711), thus this caused a contradiction which was bending the principles and concepts of the world and would have destroyed it if not for Alice and co containing it (Chapter 710).

If accepted, this should give everyone on the level of World Creators logic manipulation.

This is not logic manipulation. You are not manipulating the interaction between the laws of thought, you are just forcing a result into the future.

If World Creators have it, then this is a redundant argument, however if not I think The Epilogue might also qualify.

Even if a being has the ability to nullify the abilities of Shallow Vernal, she would end the story of the being who can nullify the abilities of Shallow Vernal, even if there was being who can obliterate her at the very beginning of their encounter without giving her a chance to use her abilities, she would still end the being who obliterated Shallow Vernal, despite this being contradictory (Chapter 547).

Not a single person or thing can resist their, no matter what means they use or abilities they have, even if it was possible for Kuro to use the Prologue to make the impossible possible, making it possible to block the unblockable Epilogue, she would still only end up as a being who made it possible to block the Epilogue, and would still be ended (Chapter 636).

Faced with a being immune to or capable of dealing with the Epilogue, The Epilogue still brings them to their end (Chapter 1267)

Well duh, the Epilogue is a R>F trascendence above everything else in the verse, ofc nothing can resist it. This isn't logic manipulation either.

The Epilogue is a meta ability that perceives everything as fictional, it's outside the story, but to me I think these particular statements are meant as hypotheticals, to nullify the abilities of Shallow Vernal, you have to nullify The Epilogue, which is a meta ability, so you yourself would require some sort of meta ability, and it says even that person would still be ended despite all this being contradictory.

This is a very weird interpretation. It is obviously referring to the fact that, inside the story, even if a being is stated to be immune to the Epilogue, the Epilogue is going to end that character anyway because it exists outside the plot of the story.

Even if you were correct, that is not logic manipulation. It would just be layers for the Epilogue.

I disagree with the thread.

 

[BoastJr]

I think bern raises some fair concerns. Someone ping existential seed and a few staff members

 

[BoastJr]

snip

if you could help.. I will spare you from hecker for a week

 

[Vietthai96]

I think bern raises some fair concerns. Someone ping existential seed and a few staff members

@DontTalkDT @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Reiner04

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

@DontTalkDT @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Reiner04

Celestial looks like he already gave up above, so I disagree.

 

[Vietthai96]

Celestial looks like he already gave up above, so I disagree.

bro be brutal

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Thought this was over? If logic manipulation isn't a thing, then only thing which could be an argument here is possible layers or resistance negation for the Epilogue.

Which goes by what interpretation you believe, that absolutely nothing in verse compares to the Epilogue, thus any suggestions about that just refers to The Epilogue within the story, and not as it exists beyond the story, or the other interpretation where even a hypothetical 1-A entity which could resists the Epilogue, would still be ended by the Epilogue.

I personally lean towards the latter, so this would just give Shiro and co back resistance negation since nothing can resist it.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Bump.

 

[BoastJr]

Celestial looks like he already gave up above, so I disagree.

bro be brutal

Current consensus ?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I have no issues with the Resistance Negation.

 

[Legacy30]

Not gonna argue further for logic manip. Here's a scan for resistance negation. Could be infinite layered or whatever, what matters more is that the hax comes back.

感想ありがとうございます。どうあがいてもハッピーエンド。そしてシロの最後の物語は凶悪とかいうレベルじゃないですね。物語の終わり……全耐性貫通防御不可即死最後の物語……無敵の防御

Thank you for the review! No matter what happens, it's a happy ending. And man, Shiro’s "Last Story" is beyond the level of just being "vicious," isn't it? The End of the Story... bypasses all resistances, unblockable instant-death, the Last Story... the ultimate invincible defense.

 

[BoastJr]

Hmm the epilogue bypassing all forms of resistances is kinda neat

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So, the Epilogue is an unblockable ability which bypasses resistances, and even if someone resists the unblockable Epilogue which bypasses resistances, it would still bypass their resistance and kill them

 

[BoastJr]

Making a Rock so Heavy you cannot lift and still end up lifting it... truly the power of Epilogue is still insane to think about we can't think about it at all

Also this is nothingburgers rn but I like how the author says that he cannot make an ability to defeat Epilogue and the Epilogue being unbound by any form of imagination or being beyond adjectives like strong or weak. This includes our language system and language system outside it as well

 

[Reiner04]

Thought this was over? If logic manipulation isn't a thing, then only thing which could be an argument here is possible layers or resistance negation for the Epilogue.

Which goes by what interpretation you believe, that absolutely nothing in verse compares to the Epilogue, thus any suggestions about that just refers to The Epilogue within the story, and not as it exists beyond the story, or the other interpretation where even a hypothetical 1-A entity which could resists the Epilogue, would still be ended by the Epilogue.

I personally lean towards the latter, so this would just give Shiro and co back resistance negation since nothing can resist it.

res to neg is fine

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa your opinion here will be appreciated.

 

[Vietthai96]

Didn't it bypass all resistance cause it is 1-A compare to the rest?

I remember Yogiri has similar statement for his death ability but was removed with the reason that it bypass resistance cause dude ability > everyone else

 

[BoastJr]

The alternative proposal is talking about hypotheticals under the assumption that

P1 : if a Character exist that resists Epilogue

P2 : The Character must have resistance on a 1-A level at minimum

P3 : The Character would still be effected by it

If P1 ∧ P2 → P3 is true then the Epilogue possesses Resistance Negation (at minimum against 1-A level resistance) as P1 and P2 being true would lead to P3

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

The alternative proposal is talking about hypotheticals under the assumption that

P1 : if a Character exist that resists Epilogue

P2 : The Character has resistance on a 1-A level

P3 : The Character would still be effected by it

If P1 ∧ P2 → P3 is true then the Epilogue possesses Resistance Negation (at minimum against 1-A level resistance) as P1 and P2 being true would lead to P3

"Hypothetical"

Sigh

Imma just call @Justlol230 for this whenever he's awake.

 

[BoastJr]

Snip

Justlol would say "potential ?" and then post Megumi meme picture

Because I am accounting for hypothetical scenario following whats logically presented

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

Justlol would say "potential ?" and then post Megumi meme picture

Based ngl

Because I am accounting for hypothetical scenario following whats logically presented

"Because I am accounting for a devious larp scenario following what's logically presented through two layers of assumption manipulation and three fyin layers of cope absorption—" gets nuked

You and Justlol are just V1 and Gabriel anyway

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Didn't it bypass all resistance cause it is 1-A compare to the rest?

I remember Yogiri has similar statement for his death ability but was removed with the reason that it bypass resistance cause dude ability > everyone else

The Epilogue is 1-A, however when explaining the ability as being an ability which will stand at the end in all conditions, and countermeasures being meaningless it's said that even a being capable of dealing with or being immune to the Epilogue would still die (Chapter 1267), this is after going over the hierarchy which exists; beyond ominipotent>omnipotent and omniscient, no being exists in story which can resist the Epilogue, this is just explaining that even if someone like that existed, they would still die.

This seems a bit contradictory, but the Epilogue is already established as doing contradictory things (Chapter 547).

 

[Vietthai96]

Well whatever, i'm fine with Resistance Negation

 

[BoastJr]

Well whatever, i'm fine with Resistance Negation

Tysm Viethai

I will try to learn how to larp better from hecky