Immortality type 8 and 9 abyss (Genshin Impact)

[Furina003]

This CRT will not be long. Here, I will attempt to present an argument for Immortality Type 8 and Type 9 in Abyssal beings.

First, the Abyss is fundamentally a emptyness that originates from outside the universe. The forms we observe in the physical world are merely projections of their true entities, which are formless and exist within the cosmic darkness.

There is a case where a Snow King confronted a being from this darkness. No matter how many times he destroyed it, he was unable to truly kill it. This continued until the king opened a gate leading to a dark and silent world.
There, he discovered an “egg” that served as the core of the entity’s existence. When the egg was destroyed, the enemy that had manifested in the physical world disappeared instantly.

As additional context, Skirk states that the Abyss is a “shadow of the world” that always there and it will never perish. Meanwhile, Mavuika explains that although the Abyss in Natlan has been eradicated, their power still continues to exist outside of Teyvat.
These two points align with the previous explanation, suggesting that the Abyss manifesting in the world is merely a projection of their true essence, which resides in a separate realm.

From this all, it can be concluded that the Abyssal beings appearing in the world are merely projections of their true essence. This essence is anchored to an “egg” located in a separate realm, detached from the physical world. As long as this core remains intact, their projected forms cannot be permanently destroyed.

In conclusion, this supports the idea that Abyssal beings possess Immortality Type 8 (dependence on their true essence as an external core) and also Immortality Type 9 (their true existence resides in a separate realm, distinct from their physical manifestation).

Yeah, maybe only that for now, thanks

Agree: @Vietthai96 (type 8) @Random-Helper323 (type8)
Disagree: @Vietthai96 (type 9) @Random-Helper323 (type9)
Neutral:

 

[Voidnether]

I disagree, this is the same case as Surtalogi and the rest of the Sinners where they have their NEP1 removed because it was made clear it's only Avatar Creation because their true form is incorporeal (i.e they don't have any physical form) in which nowhere about this is remotely Immortality (Type 8) because they don't rely on any object and be immortal thanks to it. Immortality (Type 9) could be chainscaled from the Narwhal and its true form but that's literally it for the Abyss lmfao

 

[Furina003]

I disagree, this is the same case as Surtalogi and the rest of the Sinners where they have their NEP1 removed because it was made clear it's only Avatar Creation because their true form is incorporeal (i.e they don't have any physical form) in which nowhere about this is remotely Immortality (Type 8) because they don't rely on any object and be immortal thanks to it. Immortality (Type 9) could be chainscaled from the Narwhal and its true form but that's literally it for the Abyss lmfao

they cannot be killed completely, and will continue to rise until their true essence in the realm of darkness is destroyed.
Your rebuttal is off topic and does not match what was discussed in the CRT.

 

[Voidnether]

they cannot be killed completely, and will continue to rise until their true essence in the realm of darkness is destroyed.
Your rebuttal is off topic and does not match what was discussed in the CRT.

Nothing in the scans remotely implies this btw, it's not off-topic when we know that's the actual context here at best that I could recall when the scans are vague and don't even imply what I bolded

 

[Furina003]

Nothing in the scans remotely implies this btw, it's not off-topic when we know that's the actual context here at best that I could recall when the scans are vague and don't even imply what I bolded

read it again scan, the topic you discussed and the topic I discussed are completely different.

Yet that enemy could neither age nor die, for his life was hidden far from his body. No matter how many times the king of the snowy realms struck him down, he would rise again from the shadows

if he opened that door, a world as black as spilled ink would pour forth, swallowing both heaven and earth. In that world, everything was still. There was no light, and no sound. The Snow-King would have to cross that silent realm alone and, at its lightless heart, find an egg.
This egg held the essence of his enemy's life. Shatter it, and the immortal enemy would be reduced to dust.

 

[MSahla]

because they don't rely on any object and be immortal thanks to it.

Nothing in the scans remotely implies this btw, it's not off-topic when we know that's the actual context here at best that I could recall when the scans are vague and don't even imply what I bolded

I don't even know if you read the OP at this point. The abyssal enemy that the Belyi Tsar's fought was immortal thanks to the egg that he found. Whatever that means about the egg, still doesn't change the fact that the Abyss' "Life" relies on "something", whatever it is.

According to legend, the king of the Fae of the Snowlands — a hero born from the bones of a great beast — sought to unite the entire continent. To do so, he had to slay his final enemy.
Yet that enemy could neither age nor die, for his life was hidden far from his body. No matter how many times the king of the snowy realms struck him down, he would rise again from the shadows.
So, the spirit of frost and a traveler from beyond the palace walls set out to seek the truth of this foe. At last, they learned how he might be killed.
To kill the enemy, the Snow-King would need to find a fissure buried deep in the earth's darkest strata. Within that crack lay a tree that grew downward. Upon the tree's tower-like branches perched a raven. Within the raven's belly lay a snow-white hare. In the hare's eyes was a door. And if he opened that door, a world as black as spilled ink would pour forth, swallowing both heaven and earth. In that world, everything was still. There was no light, and no sound. The Snow-King would have to cross that silent realm alone and, at its lightless heart, find an egg.
This egg held the essence of his enemy's life. Shatter it, and the immortal enemy would be reduced to dust.

Immortality (Type 9) could be chainscaled from the Narwhal and its true form but that's literally it for the Abyss lmfao

Narwhal never had that type of immortality. Guess someone skipped Skirk's story quest.

 

[Furina003]

Bump

 

[PedjaTarzan]

type 8 is fine for beings that get unkillable due to abyss being their source, i think illuga world quest had similar case where abyssal monster couldnt die as long as abyssal energy wasnt completely purified
Type 9 requires same entity to exist in that separate dimension which i am not so sure of

 

[Furina003]

type 8 is fine for beings that get unkillable due to abyss being their source, i think illuga world quest had similar case where abyssal monster couldnt die as long as abyssal energy wasnt completely purified
Type 9 requires same entity to exist in that separate dimension which i am not so sure of

yeah the ones in the other world are the same entities that are in the human realm, because basically they are just projections of their true essence

 

[MSahla]

Currently i'm fine with Type 8, still not sure about Type 9.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

type 8 is fine for beings that get unkillable due to abyss being their source, i think illuga world quest had similar case where abyssal monster couldnt die as long as abyssal energy wasnt completely purified
Type 9 requires same entity to exist in that separate dimension which i am not so sure of

Type 9 should work, since by proxy of their type 8 (the cores or whatever) existing in the abyss, which is an alternate realm, it'd allow them to satisfy the conditions for both simultaneously. So assuming these cores are always in the abyss like the OP says I don't see why they wouldn't qualify, you can put me for agree for now

 

[MSahla]

Type 9 should work, since by proxy of their type 8 (the cores or whatever) existing in the abyss, which is an alternate realm, it'd allow them to satisfy the conditions for both simultaneously. So assuming these cores are always in the abyss like the OP says I don't see why they wouldn't qualify, you can put me for agree for now

I guess type 9 should work with this.

 

[AsterReal]

This looks good, but wouldn't this grant Mavuika and the Traveler Immortality Negation for permanently destroying Gosoythoth? The same applies to the Heavenly Principles.

 

[Furina003]

This looks good, but wouldn't this grant Mavuika and the Traveler Immortality Negation for permanently destroying Gosoythoth? The same applies to the Heavenly Principles.

yeah maybe, but that will be discussed in a separate CRT

 

[Furina003]

Bump

 

[Furina003]

Bump

 

[Furina003]

Bump

 

[Furina003]

Bump

 

[Youngwolf-0.1]

Im fine with immortality type 8, but im not really agree for immortality type 9. Type 9 typically requires that the character’s true self exists independently as a higher or metaphysical existence, and that the physical body is merely an avatar or projection of that true self. In this case, the evidence shows that the entity’s life is anchored to a specific object in another realm, which aligns more directly with type 8 rather than a separate, autonomous true existence. The statements about the Abyss existing outside the universe or being a “shadow of the world” are interesting, but they seem to describe the nature of the Abyss itself, not necessarily the individual beings as independent higher existences. Unless there is clear proof that the entity continues to exist even without the egg, or that its true self is fundamentally distinct from the physical manifestation, it may be safer to classify this as type 8 only for now.

 

[Youngwolf-0.1]

Type 9 should work, since by proxy of their type 8 (the cores or whatever) existing in the abyss, which is an alternate realm, it'd allow them to satisfy the conditions for both simultaneously. So assuming these cores are always in the abyss like the OP says I don't see why they wouldn't qualify, you can put me for agree for now

Hmmmm No, i don’t think the core being in another realm automatically qualifies for Type 9. That mainly shows reliance on an external source, which fits type 8. Type 9 usually requires that the character’s true self exists independently as the real being, not just that their life source is located somewhere else. If destroying the core results in permanent death, that suggests dependence rather than an independent higher existence. So unless there is evidence that the being itself continues to exist beyond the destruction of the core, or that the physical form is merely an avatar of a true self, it seems safer to classify this as type 8 only for now.

 

[Furina003]

Im fine with immortality type 8, but im not really agree for immortality type 9. Type 9 typically requires that the character’s true self exists independently as a higher or metaphysical existence, and that the physical body is merely an avatar or projection of that true self. In this case, the evidence shows that the entity’s life is anchored to a specific object in another realm, which aligns more directly with type 8 rather than a separate, autonomous true existence. The statements about the Abyss existing outside the universe or being a “shadow of the world” are interesting, but they seem to describe the nature of the Abyss itself, not necessarily the individual beings as independent higher existences. Unless there is clear proof that the entity continues to exist even without the egg, or that its true self is fundamentally distinct from the physical manifestation, it may be safer to classify this as type 8 only for now.

There's actually no requirement that the body be in a higher metaphysical or on a higher ontological level. It's sufficient to prove that the body possesses a true form existing in an independent world.

But speaking of ontology, if we look at the case, this true form clearly has a higher level and is independent of its projection. If the original body is destroyed, the projection will also be destroyed, but not vice versa.

 

[Youngwolf-0.1]

There's actually no requirement that the body be in a higher metaphysical or on a higher ontological level. It's sufficient to prove that the body possesses a true form existing in an independent world.

But speaking of ontology, if we look at the case, this true form clearly has a higher level and is independent of its projection. If the original body is destroyed, the projection will also be destroyed, but not vice versa.

I agree that type 9 does not necessarily require a higher ontological level, and that a true form existing independently from its projection can qualify. However, I think the key issue here is whether the “true form” functions as an independent existence or simply as a vulnerable core. If destroying the true form results in the permanent death of the entity, that suggests reliance on that object for survival, which aligns more closely with type 8. Type 9 typically applies when the projection depends on the true self, but the true self itself continues to exist independently rather than being eliminated. So I think the distinction depends on the exact nature of the true form. If it is merely the source sustaining the projection, that supports Type 8. If it is confirmed to be the entity’s actual existence that persists independently, then type 9 could be justified.

 

[Furina003]

I agree that type 9 does not necessarily require a higher ontological level, and that a true form existing independently from its projection can qualify. However, I think the key issue here is whether the “true form” functions as an independent existence or simply as a vulnerable core. If destroying the true form results in the permanent death of the entity, that suggests reliance on that object for survival, which aligns more closely with type 8. Type 9 typically applies when the projection depends on the true self, but the true self itself continues to exist independently rather than being eliminated. So I think the distinction depends on the exact nature of the true form. If it is merely the source sustaining the projection, that supports Type 8. If it is confirmed to be the entity’s actual existence that persists independently, then type 9 could be justified.

This is what I was trying to explain earlier: this true entity is independent of its projections, but the projections themselves are dependent on their true form.
This is similar to the case of Raiden Shogun and Raiden Ei, which were accepted as Immortality Type 9.

What needs to be emphasized is that the primary requirement for Immortality Type 9 lies in the existence of an alternate ‘true self’ located in a place that is independent from where the entity can be killed.

Thus, whether it takes the form of a life essence or any other form of existence, as long as this core entity resides in a separate or independent realm from where its physical body or projection exists, it can be classified as Immortality Type 9.

In essence, the key point is not whether the true body itself is independent, but whether the location or realm in which the true body exists is independent from the place where it can be killed.

9: Transcendental Immortality: Characters whose true selves exist independently from the plane where they can be killed.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Hmmmm No, i don’t think the core being in another realm automatically qualifies for Type 9. That mainly shows reliance on an external source, which fits type 8. Type 9 usually requires that the character’s true self exists independently as the real being, not just that their life source is located somewhere else. If destroying the core results in permanent death, that suggests dependence rather than an independent higher existence. So unless there is evidence that the being itself continues to exist beyond the destruction of the core, or that the physical form is merely an avatar of a true self, it seems safer to classify this as type 8 only for now.

Type 9 never specifies this though, and in fact there are plenty of type 9 characters who get the ability as a result of their "essence" and the like, existing in another realm, you can liken that to a "core" or what have you, but well...staff will decide I guess. I don't really plan to defend this super hard because not only is this not my proposal, it isn't even a verse I support

 

[Vietthai96]

I disagree with Type 9, the scan made it clear that the true form is talking about the true form of the monster, which is mass of Abyss energy, while it faceless form is a projection, this is simply like how you disguise yourself with different appearance which the disguise is the "projection" while the "true form" is your real appearance. This talk nothing about Type 9, which require there is a true form existing in a different dimensions

Type 8 based on the egg is a oke

 

[Furina003]

I disagree with Type 9, the scan made it clear that the true form is talking about the true form of the monster, which is mass of Abyss energy, while it faceless form is a projection, this is simply like how you disguise yourself with different appearance which the disguise is the "projection" while the "true form" is your real appearance. This talk nothing about Type 9, which require there is a true form existing in a different dimensions

Type 8 based on the egg is a oke

its ok, i have explained it to my understanding about type 9 immortality in the previous comment, but if that still doesn't meet the requirements, well i don't mind. Thanks

 

[Vietthai96]

its ok, i have explained it to my understanding about type 9 immortality in the previous comment, but if that still doesn't meet the requirements, well i don't mind. Thanks

What Yongwolf said is true, need to have a true form in another dimension and the one you are facing against is just the projection, avatar, thing that is similar. Having an essence in another realm isn't type 9 and just type 8, but have better range due to being in another realm. Unless the "essence" in question is the true form, but if the essence is the true form then you get Type 9 but lose Type 8. Though from what i saw in the scans, the Egg is kind of just an essence that sustains the monster existence, which is type 8

 

[Furina003]

What Yongwolf said is true, need to have a true form in another dimension and the one you are facing against is just the projection, avatar, thing that is similar. Having an essence in another realm isn't type 9 and just type 8, but have better range due to being in another realm. Unless the "essence" in question is the true form, but if the essence is the true form then you get Type 9 but lose Type 8. Though from what i saw in the scans, the Egg is kind of just an essence that sustains the monster existence, which is type 8

I have no problem with immortality type 8, thank you for giving your opinion

 

[Furina003]

Bump

 

[MSahla]

Bumping

 

[Furina003]

Bump

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[Furina003]

Bump

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[Random-Helper323]

What Vietthai accepted should be fine.

 

[Furina003]

What Vietthai accepted should be fine.

What Yongwolf said is true, need to have a true form in another dimension and the one you are facing against is just the projection, avatar, thing that is similar. Having an essence in another realm isn't type 9 and just type 8, but have better range due to being in another realm. Unless the "essence" in question is the true form, but if the essence is the true form then you get Type 9 but lose Type 8. Though from what i saw in the scans, the Egg is kind of just an essence that sustains the monster existence, which is type 8

This is a simple CRT, 2 staff agree,
Can this be implemented? It seems like type 8 immortality is fine.

 

[MSahla]

This is a simple CRT, 2 staff agree,
Can this be implemented? It seems like type 8 immortality is fine.

I'll do it tmrw.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

This is a simple CRT, 2 staff agree,
Can this be implemented? It seems like type 8 immortality is fine.

Yes, should be fine to implement.

 

[MSahla]

Now.. I have to think how to make the justification of it..

 

[Furina003]

I'll do it tmrw.

Yes, should be fine to implement.

Ok Thanks