Infinite Speed Downgrade for Zeus.

[Greatsage13th]

Just a simple downgrade based on logical thinking.

I don't think The Fist That Surpassed Time should be infinite due to the fact that just because we don't see what lies ahead of of the 20ish zeroes does not mean that it is indeed infinite. In fact all previous abilities that Zeus used have the exact same pattern where it all ended with a single 1 behind behind a bunch of zeroes. Safe to say, it should remain as MFTL+ as opposed to infinite.

Another thing to mention, is that the ability is quite similar to Time Manipulation which further blurs whether or not The Fist That Surpasses Time is actually infinite by itself OR is infinite because of its inherent time stopping quality.

The last obvious thing that completely removes infinite speed is the fact that this value does not match with having infinite speed, regardless how many zeros there are, it would still imply there is an end. Even if it were to go ad-infinitum, there would still be an end.

In conclusion, either you can do stuff in absolutely zero time or you can't do it at all.

What do y'all think?

Agree (It is time slow, remove infinite): 1 (@DarkDragonMedeus )

Agree (It is MFTL+, remove infinite): 3 (@ActuallySpaceMan42 ,@SamanPatou [Time manipulation through speed amps, Unknown, up to MFTL+], @Damage3245 [Time manipulation through speed amps, Unknown, up to MFTL+])

Disagree (Keep Infinite): 1 (@Nierre )

Neutral (None of the above): 0

Still Thinking About It: 1 (@Vietthai96 )

Special thanks to Touhou Project for motivating me to do this

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I always thought Zeus' fist was a time stop and not infinite speed.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I also had my doubts. But after contemplating for a while, it made sense that it was only due to time stop that he managed to do what he did.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Call on the supporters so that this won't drag for too long.

 

[Greatsage13th]

it should be changed to possibly infinite

That's the thing, it can't be possibly. The evidence for possibly infinite is not strong enough.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I also had my doubts. But after contemplating for a while, it made sense that it was only due to time stop that he managed to do what he did.

When Zeus' punch is used, we see several birds frozen in time, and then we see the quote that Zeus has gained control over time, so I'm almost 1 billion percent sure that it's time freeze rather than infinite speed.

 

[Greatsage13th]

When Zeus' punch is used, we see several birds frozen in time, and then we see the quote that Zeus has gained control over time, so I'm almost 1 billion percent sure that it's time freeze rather than infinite speed.

That makes a whole lot of sense compared to having Infinite speed combined with time stop.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

It's not accepted as stopping time. For you to use that argument, you have to make it accepted first.

 

[Greatsage13th]

It's not accepted as stopping time. For you to use that argument, you have to make it accepted first.

That's not true. You can simply change the infinite speed to straight up time stop in one go from here on out. Right now the purpose of this CRT is to invalidate the so called infinite speed gained from repetitive decimal places, my friend.

 

[SweetDao]

makes sense yeah.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

That's not true. You can simply change the infinite speed to straight up time stop in one go from here on out. Right now the purpose of this CRT is to invalidate the so called infinite speed gained from repetitive decimal places, my friend.

To remove infinite speed, you're arguing that the technique stops time, and you even say "because of its inherent time-stopping quality." It's just that this was removed in a CRT and was accepted as not stopping time, and was removed from Zeus's profile. If you want to use this argument, you have to argue why it's a time-stopping ability, refuting the arguments used in the CRT that removed this power. This is something you're not doing; you're basically saying "this power stops time because I think it does."

Yes, this does not invalidate the question of whether it is MFTL+ or infinity since there are other arguments like you brought up. I actually don't even care if infinity remains or not. I'm just talking about this specific argument and the problem with it.

 

[Damage3245]

Can someone provide the thread where the time stop was removed?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Can someone provide the thread where the time stop was removed?

RoR: Improving the P&A section (Part 1)

Hello The P&A section of some Record of Ragnarok profiles aren't as good. The formatting could be better, some skills shouldn't be there and mostly missing references or scans for those skills. In this CRT I'll be working on the profiles of Adam, Zerus, Sasaki Kojiro and Poseidon. I'll show...

vsbattles.com

 

[Jinx666]

We don't say its definitely Infinite anyway. We open the possibility since its subjective and difficult to swing either way on whether or not TFTST is just super fast or genuinely time-surpassing.

Don't see why we should remove that notion from the profile, especially when the evidence points more towards it than against it honestly. Leave it alone.

Profiles in general on the wiki should open up a lot more to the low-end high-end potential of character stats better anyway

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Which Zeus is this for? Could the OP please specify what verse and better yet add tags to list what pages may be effected by this?

 

[Huesito88]

Which Zeus is this for? Could the OP please specify what verse and better yet add tags to list what pages may be effected by this?

Record of Ragnarok

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh yeah, this was the original argument for it being Infinite speed rather than time stop is that he does his feats through amping his raw power and speed and not use hax to nullify or nerf his surroundings. Though his ability to "Control time" quoted above also points to it more likely being time stop. So I can agree time stop is more likely than infinite speed unless @SamanPatou has contentions again.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Oh yeah, this was the original argument for it being Infinite speed rather than time stop is that he does his feats through amping his raw power and speed and not use hax to nullify or nerf his surroundings. Though his ability to "Control time" quoted above also points to it more likely being time stop. So I can agree time stop is more likely than infinite speed unless @SamanPatou has contentions again.

There's also what I said in the OP. There was also a previous discussion about this on crt.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Just a simple downgrade based on logical thinking.

I don't think The Fist That Surpassed Time should be infinite due to the fact that just because we don't see what lies ahead of of the 20ish zeroes does not mean that it is indeed infinite. In fact all previous abilities that Zeus used have the exact same pattern where it all ended with a single 1 behind behind a bunch of zeroes. Safe to say, it should remain as MFTL+ as opposed to infinite.

Another thing to mention, is that the ability is combined with Time Stop which further blurs whether or not The Fist That Surpasses Time is actually infinite by itself OR is infinite because of its inherent time stopping quality.

The last obvious thing that completely removes infinite speed is the fact that this value does not match with having infinite speed, regardless how many zeros there are, it would still imply there is an end. Even if it were to go ad-infinitum, there would still be an end.

In conclusion, either you can do stuff in absolutely zero time or you can't do it at all.

What do y'all think?

Agree:

Disagree:

Incon:

Special thanks to Touhou Project for motivating me to do this

In my mind, it doesn’t make sense to write 0.000000000000000... for something that happens in zero time; a single zero would be enough. You wouldn’t need to separate the decimal places unless there’s something at the end of the sequence of zeros

 

[Greatsage13th]

We don't say its definitely Infinite anyway. We open the possibility since its subjective and difficult to swing either way on whether or not TFTST is just super fast or genuinely time-surpassing.

Don't see why we should remove that notion from the profile, especially when the evidence points more towards it than against it honestly. Leave it alone.

Profiles in general on the wiki should open up a lot more to the low-end high-end potential of character stats better anyway

Thing is, the high end isn't going to be infinite anyways because of the fact there's decimal places present even if we assume it goes ad-infinitum, which the low-end does not assume such a case by Occam's razor.

 

[Jinx666]

Thing is, the high end isn't going to be infinite anyways because of the fact there's decimal places present even if we assume it goes ad-infinitum, which the low-end does not assume such a case by Occam's razor.

I very much doubt thats actually what the intention is

The fact it goes on without an end is more than enough to imply its namesake, or even reach infinitesimally.

The fact is, we do not know either way and theres arguments for both. Much like the rets of R2, i doubt they're going to further clarify so it is better leaving it as an optional stat

 

[Greatsage13th]

I very much doubt thats actually what the intention

Could you rephrase that?

The fact it goes on without an end is more than enough to imply its namesake, or even reach infinitesimally.

That's not infinite if there are decimal places after zero in the first place. It is not negligible and at most provide the highest MFTL+ speed on the wiki.

The fact is, we do not know either way and theres arguments for both. Much like the rets of R2, i doubt they're going to further clarify so it is better leaving it as an optional stat

Accuracy should be the first priority and it points at something that isn't infinite in this case but rather simple time stop.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Furthermore, if you consider this a time stop, then MFTL+ would have to be removed.

Either you consider there's a "1" after all those zeros, meaning time was still moving and the attack occurred in that short passage of time, or you consider it a time stop and the zeros represent stopped time, meaning it's not a speed feat.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Furthermore, if you consider this a time stop, then MFTL+ would have to be removed.

Either you consider there's a "1" after all those zeros, meaning time was still moving and the attack occurred in that short passage of time, or you consider it a time stop and the zeros represent stopped time, meaning it's not a speed feat.

You can't have it both ways.

It's simple. it's either agree for time stop or agree for MFTL+. DDM's vote is for time stop.

 

[Vietthai96]

If it is time stop, showing 0 with decimal 0 make no sense at all, just need a single number 0, since time stop will completely halt the flow of time to zero.

So i disagree with time stop, because it seem like the flow of time isn't completely stopped, this is time slow, just an extremely powerful time slow that slowing down time to almost a stop, given how they portray the 0 number with the seemingly no end of decimal number 0

 

[Phsccarvalho]

If it is time stop, showing 0 with decimal 0 make no sense at all, just need a single number 0, since time stop will completely halt the flow of time to zero.

So i disagree with time stop, because it seem like the flow of time isn't completely stopped, this is time slow, just an extremely powerful time slow that slowing down time to almost a stop, given how they portray the 0 number with the seemingly no end of decimal number 0

Being a slow timer doesn't make much sense given the context of the chapter.

Basically, all of Zeus's attacks up to this point have a timer that represents the time the attack was executed. This timer increases until this point, indicating that he's increasing the speed of his attacks.

EDIT: Ingur stopped working, see chapter 9, basically everything happens in this chapter.

It suddenly makes less sense to me that the last one is a slow timer considering the context behind the timer.

 

[Vietthai96]

Timer increase in what way?, if he take more time to attack that mean his attacks is getting slower

Also, the more you slowing down time, the faster your attack indirectly, unless the time slow also affecting you

 

[Greatsage13th]

Timer increase in what way?, if he take more time to attack that mean his attacks is getting slower

Also, the more you slowing down time, the faster your attack indirectly, unless the time slow also affecting you

Oh yeah, this was the original argument for it being Infinite speed rather than time stop is that he does his feats through amping his raw power and speed and not use hax to nullify or nerf his surroundings. Though his ability to "Control time" quoted above also points to it more likely being time stop. So I can agree time stop is more likely than infinite speed unless @SamanPatou has contentions again.

DDM, what do you think of Vietthai's perspective?

 

[Syncornize]

Just a simple downgrade based on logical thinking.

I don't think The Fist That Surpassed Time should be infinite due to the fact that just because we don't see what lies ahead of of the 20ish zeroes does not mean that it is indeed infinite. In fact all previous abilities that Zeus used have the exact same pattern where it all ended with a single 1 behind behind a bunch of zeroes. Safe to say, it should remain as MFTL+ as opposed to infinite.

Usually, the standards of this wiki require particularly solid evidence. In my opinion, given the unclear evidence, we should stick to the usual methods. I agree not to consider it as base speed.

perhaps we can keep it as a “possibly infinite speed?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Usually, the standards of this wiki generally require particularly strong evidence. In my opinion, given the rather unclear circumstances, we should stick to the usual methods. I agree not to consider it as base speed.

perhaps we can keep it as a “possibly infinite speed?

Not with all those decimal places. That's what debunks infinite speed. Better stick with a low ball or completely change it to either time stop or time dilation.

 

[Syncornize]

Not with all those decimal places. That's what debunks infinite speed. Better stick with a low ball or completely change it to either time stop or time dilation.

understand, but as I find the whole matter unclear, I agree with its removal in the absence of new evidence.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Same thoughts as @Demon_Lord18. The very fact that decimals were used implies the number was simply used to indicate a VERY small quantity. After all, even 0.0000()...1 is not 0, but simply infinitely close to it. And even thenz whether it's actually infinitely close to 0 or that the big number just couldn't fit on screen is another question entirely.

On the other hand, seeing scans sent by @LuffyRuffy46307, I also share the same opinion that it's hax rather than speed.

 

[Jinx666]

Yeah, i dont see the issue with keeping it around as a possibility, like it always is, when the series is clearly implying it is more likely to be a move literally surpassing time than not.

It looks more odd not to talk about it on the profile when its probably Record of Ragnarok's hugest defining feat. Getting rid of it for one option when you can take it very subjectively is just not worth it.

The numbers going from 0.0000000-etc is definitely to imply an extremely high speed, even genuinely surpassing time narratively. The visuals, the lore behind the technique (from Cronos, who is the personification of time apparently), and the overall dominance of Valhalla's "strongest" god in itself. Just because it doesnt follow some law that the mangaka would have no idea about doesnt mean we should discredit it. Its just better to leave it as the possibility.

The technique was also trained, and relies on Zeus' physicals, so this isnt some magic hax ability he has. Thats not even Zeus' style, where he canonically prefers using CQC attacks (when you can definitely assume he does have a ton of magic abilities at his disposal). Its a legitimate attack.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

The technique was also trained, and relies on Zeus' physicals, so this isnt some magic hax ability he has, its a legitimate attack.

For this specifically, I'd say it's a pretty common troupe in fiction (at least ones I've read recently) where you're required to be at a certain level, even physically, to use time manipulation abilities.

An examplary reason as to why would be to simply be able to resist time stop itself. After all, we constantly see that the "power ups" are not at all equivalent to the amount of training the character did when talking about high tiers (AP and Speed).

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Timer increase in what way?, if he take more time to attack that mean his attacks is getting slower

He's simply attacking faster.

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The timer itself represents Zeus attacking quickly, and attacking faster and faster, increasing his own attack speed as he attacks. As mentioned in one of the panels.

That's why I don't see the point in the final attack being a time-slowing hax, since the point is to show us how fast Zeus himself is getting.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I'll change the vote for time stop to time slow as it is what Viet and DDM agrees with.

 

[Yasuda_144]

After all, even 0.0000()...1 is not 0, but simply infinitely close to it.

Neutral on the thread itself but this just objectively isn't true, like math itself simply doesn't work like that. The idea of a number with an infinite amount of digits having a "last digit" at all is simply not possible, and the idea of a number that isn't zero but is "the closest thing to zero" only makes sense in the context of hyperrreal numbers, not the ordinary real number line. The real numbers wouldn't be the real numbers if there were two of them that were as adjacent to each other as is possible without simply being two ways of writing the same number (this is the underlying reason why 1 and 0.9999... repeating infinitely are literally the exact same number). If a set of numbers has that quality it would simply not be a continuum, which the real numbers are.

 

[Zefra3011]

I don't think The Fist That Surpassed Time should be infinite due to the fact that just because we don't see what lies ahead of of the 20ish zeroes does not mean that it is indeed infinite. In fact all previous abilities that Zeus used have the exact same pattern where it all ended with a single 1 behind behind a bunch of zeroes. Safe to say, it should remain as MFTL+ as opposed to infinite.

It's entirely interpretative; one can say, "Since there has always been a zero, then there must be one here too", and another can say, "Since there has always been a zero, but here not, then there isn't". None can be proven, as you would need to either see the 1 or have a statement that the 1 is not there.

Another thing to mention, is that the ability is combined with Time Stop which further blurs whether or not The Fist That Surpasses Time is actually infinite by itself OR is infinite because of its inherent time stopping quality.

What? How can you prove that he stops time through time hax and not pseudo-stopping it via speed?

Also, the ability is a further extension of his prior abilities, which are a matter of speed. His stuff is a progressive moving faster and faster, so the either infinite or MFTL+ attack is a further higher speed, and not a technique dislocated from the others. The whole fight is about it, lol.

The last obvious thing that completely removes infinite speed is the fact that this value does not match with having infinite speed, regardless how many zeros there are, it would still imply there is an end. Even if it were to go ad-infinitum, there would still be an end.

No, it's interpretative as I said above.


Now, my argument for it being infinite speed would primarily be this visual effect, which can be interpreted in two ways: either that he is fast enough that the rest is frozen compared to his speed, or a pseudo-time stop via speed; I believe the latter. That effect happens EXCLUSIVELY during that punch, despite the previous technique already blitzing other gods. It means if the visual effect is indeed meant solely to blitz the audience, then it should have happened earlier, yet it didn't. Nor do you need that level of speed to pseudo-time stop birds; the first techniques should have been more than enough, yet again, it's only shown during that punch. It means that the visual effect is the second option, i.e., showing a pseudo-time stop.

Also, add that the technique it's named "the fist that SURPASSSESS TIME" and that it comes from the God of time.

You do you, but I believe this technique is infinite speed, not even a mere possibily rating.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Also, add that the technique it's named "the fist that SURPASSSESS TIME" and that it comes from the God of time.

Translation error.

 

[Zefra3011]

I mean, I don't know. But even if, it doesn't change much. "The Guardian of Space-Time" gives similar vibes.