Invincible: 5-A Upgrade

[StoneKillerz12]

Basis​

Viltrum's properties and narrative portrayal would reasonably make it much bigger than Earth, something none of the accepted calculations we've used credit it for. This would be an explanation for three Viltrumites and Space Racer's gun being needed to destroy the Planet, along with explaining why it's core was tough enough to cause three Viltrumites to possibly "die on impact" if they had collided with the Planet. Additionally, Viltrum's destruction taking much more effort than other instances of Planet level destruction in Invincible would further justify it's size and mass being far greater than a Planet like Earth.

Evidence​

Viltrum Being Larger than Earth​

• 99.9% of Viltrum's population formed a ring around the entire Planet. The death toll per year was stated to have claimed "countless lives", each individual line of dead bodies being visible next to the Planet and as a black line when zoomed out in space. Before the Scourge Virus happened, Viltrumites spent hundreds of years straight restlessly killingeach other until only the strongest of them survived. Over 1.2 million people die per year as a result of military conflict, and assuming a timeframe of around 300 years, this puts 0.1% of Viltrum's population at a minimum of 142,256,925,000 Viltrumites, over 17 times Earth's current population as of 2025, and over 14 times Earth's estimated "carrying capacity". It's population at 100% was then 142,256,925,000,000 Viltrumites, 99.9% of those making up Viltrum's rings. Using 1.9 square meters, the average surface area of a human male, the combined surface area of Viltrum's entire Viltrumite population makes up 270288160 square kilometers, already more than half of Earth's entire surface area. The combined surface area of all humans on Earth as of 2025, using the population of 8,198,803,610 people according to this site, would be roughly 15577.726859 square kilometers using the same 1.9 square meter value. Obviously, if Viltrum was really only the size of Earth, stable living conditions where it's population is well over 14,000 times the Planet's carrying capacity would be virtually non-existent, especially when the population is filled with beings who can virtually kill each other accidentally via physical contact. Yet even in the flashbacks of Viltrum's actual society, there are no issues with Viltrumites being able to move around in wide open space to mimic a mistakenly utopian society.
  
  
• Viltrum canonically has considerably greater gravity than Earth and even Neptune, being 1.25x Earth's specifically. By default, larger objects, unless they have less density, by definition possess greater gravity according to Newton's Universal law of Gravitation, and vice versa. Viltrum is clearly not composed entirely of icy gas nor is noticeably any less dense than Earth, therefore in order for it to have greater gravity while having comparable density to Earth, it would objectively need to possess considerably greater volume for it's mass to be spread out across and thus also heavier, due to gravity and mass being directly proportional.
  
  
• For Viltrum to have supported it's rings of corpses for several thousand to millions of years, it would need to have a considerably greater Roche limit than Earth, and thus a much greater radius for objects caught in it's gravitational pull to remain in consistent orbit sustained only by it's gravity. Viltrum's gravity is greater than any's in Earth's solar system with the exception of Jupiter, and all Planets in the Solar System which are bigger than Earth possess rings. Viltrum's gravity being greater than Saturn and even Neptune, while still having greater density than both of them would for the same reasons above objectively attribute it comparably larger size to Earth.
  • Viltrum also has 4 visible moons, all of which would have to be located outside of it's own Roche limit distance and shaped purely by it's own gravitational force, consistent with all of the above justifications as well as the canonical description of Viltrum's gravity.
    • Despite being located at minimum right at the border of it's roche limit via the moons being perfect spheres remaining in tact purely by Viltrum's gravity, Viltrum still dwarfs said moons that distance away. This would put Viltrum's apparent size already at over 29,000 kilometers in this calculation. This point will only be valid if/once said calculation is approved, however.
• While a stretch, Viltrum could potentially be comparable in size to Universa's Planet, which is stated by Universa herself to be 8 times as large as Earth. Universa is clearly not as physically strong as Mark, let alone stronger than Viltrumites or Rognarr, meaning her Planet potentially has less gravity than Viltrum. This one admittedly is more than likely unusable, but it can possibly be used as supporting evidence for Viltrum being larger than Earth, I suppose. I just felt it was worth bringing up.

Instances of Viltrumites Having No Issue Destroying Other Planets​

• Thragg stated that he and 37 severely injured Viltrumites are enough to split the Earth in two, a statement which has been accepted as being usable. In order for this to be possible, Thragg and those other 37 Viltrumites would have objectively needed to have collided with the Earth's core in order to move through the entire Planet's diameter. If Space Racer's gun was truly necessary for singular Viltrumites to destroy an ordinary Planet's core, this would not be possible for Thragg and those 37 Viltrumites to accomplish without many of those 37 Viltrumites dying on impact, taking Thaedus' statement as applicable to literally any Planet in the Universe.
  • It would also make no sense whatsoever for all of those, including severely-injured 37 Viltrumites to have "weakened" the Earth's core before the final 37th Viltrumite finally causes it to collapse, as again, if an individual Viltrumite truly could die upon colliding with a Planet's core, that would mean Thragg would be risking the lives of the literal final remaining members of his species, something which entirely goes against his sole motivation for engaging in a truce with Mark and Nolan. Thragg wants every single Viltrumite alive to breed with the population of Earth to repopulate the Viltrumite race, risking the lives of 37 Viltrumites just to prove a point to destroy something he already doesn't want to destroy as it is their last chance of survival would be a very stupid, out-of-character decision. Again, collision with Earth's core would objectively have to happen in order to split the Earth in two 50/50 slices, which is what our standard Earth splitting calc uses.
    
    
  • Space Racer is also on the side of the Coalition of Planets, and Thragg likely doesn't even know of his effort in destroying Viltrum as he directly attributes it's destruction to Mark, Nolan, and Thaedus without any mention of Space Racer's gun playing a role. Space Racer would not shoot at Earth's core intentionally to help Thragg and Viltrum destroy the Earth, nor would he have any reason to that benefits him. Thragg is also very prideful of himself and Viltrumites as a race, which is the entire motivation for why he leads the Viltrumites as a Planet conquering race and later leads an army of half-Viltrumite children to kill those who betrayed him, specifically to prove his superiority over all other races and beings in the Universe. Space Racer's gun being used to destabilize Earth's core would be out of character for both Space Racer and Thragg, which assumes Thragg even knows about Space Racer's effort in destroying Viltrum.
• Allen's homeworld, Unopa, was stated by Allen himself to have been completely destroyed by Viltrumwith there being no Planet to go back to at all. This forced the Unopan species to become nomadic and set up deep space breeding colonies, where Allen was born. If Unopa's civilization or surface was all that destroyed, the Unopan species could have very easily rebuilt their society over time considering the fact there were survivors and simply set up their breeding colonies there. We've seen other Planets in Invincible, specifically Thraxa, do exactly this when Viltrumites invaded the Planet and destroyed their cities and left a large portion of their population dead, and they even have specific hiding spots for invasions of Viltrumites. We also never see the Unopa homeworld in Invincible at any time whatsoever outside of flashbacks, despite us going back to Thraxa multiple times in Invincible despite how many times it's civilization was ravaged by Viltrum.
  • The TV series, which is written and co-directed by Robert Kirkman who also wrote the comic series, has Allen flat out saying that Unopa was blown up.
• Beyond all of this, there is not any other instance in the series besides the destruction of Viltrum where Viltrumites require outside help beyond just their brute strength in order to destroy Planets or survive impacting with a Planet's core. Even with the combined effort of multiple Viltrumites being taken into account, we already accept individual Viltrumites scaling to Low 5-B due to the ejection of Viltrum's mass, despite previously scaling them individually to 1/37th the effort of the standard Low 5-B earth splitting feat, meaning that stronger Viltrumites would absolutely be contributing much more to a Planet's destruction than other weaker Viltrumites via this factor. Additionally, "blowing a planet up" would almost certainly yield far greater than Low 5-B kinetic energy results if it is to be assumed that literally the entire planet was destroyed, which should be a reasonable assumption for Allen's planet FRA, making their individual effort not a fraction of the Planet's GBE, but of the kinetic energy of the hypothetical Planet's debris flying out into space, again, something we already scale Viltrumites to based off of dividng the KE of the outward mass of Viltrum being ejected by three for each Viltrumite.
  • WoG has backed up Viltrumites being able to "blow up planets" as a consistent display of their power level. Kirkman at no point has any objection to claims of Viltrumites being able to blow up Planets, that in fact being his very intention for Viltrumites' consistent power level:

I do think that’s one of the interesting things about the book and how it’s perceived — and this isn’t saying everybody views it as such — but a lot of what people point to with Invincible are the super heroics, the crazy violence, the punching through planets, the political machinations, and everything like that. But ultimately, it proved to be about family. It was in the beginning too, to some degree, because of what you said about the father issues and his relationship with his mom and everything like that. But so much of Mark’s journey is about building his own family in all the different ways that means, especially by the finale, which is really about his legacy, almost.
https://sktchd.com/interview/robert-kirkman-on-invincibles-20th/#:~:text=I do think that’s one of the interesting things about the,Robert: Yeah.
Robert: Yeah.

Robert: Well, how will I ever top this, like, what could I do after that, and you know... like dumb things like, well I don't know they they they punched a planet and it blew up...

(There was one where Robert allegedly states that they have "Celestial-body shattering" power, but I cannot find any information on that interview to validate it's existence, the webpage URL is suspiciously cropped out only in that scan in the pages I saw it linked, and I've had multiple people on Discord tell me it's fake, so...I'm inclined to say to not use that scan until it's existence can be proven).

In short, Viltrum as a Planet must objectively be much different from a standard Planet, as Viltrum has never once been implied to have required outside help, usage of technology, or be risking their lives destroying ordinary Planets with Viltrum's destruction being the only instance of this occuring. The only explanation that makes sense is that Viltrum's core is far denser, and therefore much more durable and heavier than the cores of ordinary Planets, something which is consistently backed up by Viltrum visibly having far greater gravity than Earth just by virtue of it being able to support a ring of dead bodies which make up 99.9% of their population, having multiple more moons than Earth in it's orbit, and by canonically being stated to have 1.25x Earth's gravity.

Kinetic Energy Adjustments​

Again, I've made a calculation recently for Viltrum's size, density, and the yield of the ejection of the outward mass being sent flying into space. While the purpose of this CRT is not to say whether or not this calculation should be used as that is for the calculation group to decide, I felt it necessary to explain some of the justifications for why I changed a few of the values that the currently accepted calc uses.

For one, the calc we currently use calculates the Planet's escape velocity and uses that for the velocity of the mass. This is a good baseline, however one, Viltrum is bigger than Earth FRA, and two, the mass being ejected clearly expands much further over a shorter distance of time. As is seen in these scans, the former clearly showing the explosion engulfing the Viltrumite corpse ring around the Planet with cities flying past them at a similar distance, the mass of the Planet that was sent out into space visibly effects, albeit does not visibly damage, the ring of Viltrumite corpses orbitting the Planet, meaning it was sent flying at this distance over this unspecified period of time. Therefore, using the distance from the edge of Viltrum to it's rings, which is what my calc did, and dividing that by an assumed timeframe (I used about 30 seconds in between the two panels before the mass is seen hitting the rings) to get the velocity. It came out to well above the escape velocity value, which obviously isn't contradictory to anything.


Secondly, the original calc uses the density of rock for the mass being ejected instead of the density of the Planet. Even just assuming Viltrum is as dense as Earth (which is clearly not the case for reasons listed both above and shortly below), the density value that should be used should be 5514 kg/m^3, Earth's density. The mass being ejected from Viltrum are pieces of the Planet itself, parts of it's volume, not just one part of the Planet composed of one specific material. Therefore, using the Planet's average density makes much more sense to me.

Possible Questions/Rebuttals​

Isn't the Viltrum Feat below 5-B due to Space Racer's gun being needed, three Viltrumites being needed to do it, and the calc getting Low 5-B?​

Well, for starters, due to the fact that Viltrum should be bigger than Earth FRA, something none of the current calculations that have been accepted take into account, the circumstances are irrelevant as the sheer size of Viltrum would yield at minimum 5-B results. However, many of the circumstances that people commonly bring up to discredit this feat have many issues and contradictions, some of which I touched on above. Viltrum is also quite clearly a different case from other Planets in both the Invincible universe and other planets in general, for reasons that have all been addressed above. What should be noted, though, is the fact that Space Racer's gun being a neccessity here at all explicitly backs up the idea that Viltrum is not only much larger than Earth, but also considerably more dense as well.

First off, it should be noted that, if you were to take Thaedus stating that the force of him, Mark, and Nolan colliding into Viltrum's core at the speed they did would kill them like many people do, then this implies that a Viltrumite cannot survive Relativistic impact equal to at most 2.066 Gigatons of TNT, and that's using the absolute highest possible movement speed that they could have achieved to get KE from that feat. This is not even trying to say that this is their peak durability either, which itself would obviously already be absurd, but rather that that amount of force would one-shot kill them, with their actual durability and AP being an unquantifiably fairly large number below that value. It should go without saying that Viltrumites clearly do not and cannot be one-shotted by Large Mountain level attacks. If this were the case, stuff like surviving a High 6-A solar flare or even while still far inferior to even the weakest Viltrumites casually throwing a Golem into space with High 6-C force, and so on. No need to really explain why Viltrumites do not peak at far below High 7-A.

Another interpretation I've seen proposed outside of both of these is that it was the heat being produced by the core which is what would have killed them on impact, and not the sheer density and toughness of it. This is not the case either due to the fact that Mark and Thragg were undamaged for several minutes before noticeable signs of burning and injury inside of the sun's surface, making it very unlikely that a single, literal split-second moment inside a slightly hotter core would do any more significant damage.

Another possible interpretation as to why they could have died to hitting Viltrum's core could be that they were already flying into the core with the same amount of force that was produced when the Planet was destroyed. If this were the case, however, at best the feat would simply just not be applicable to durability. In order for them to have produced the Planet busting force at all, they would have all three individually had to have produced the force themselves with their own AP, and therefore scale to the feat attack wise regardless of Space Racer's gun being used, meaning that Space Racer shooting his gun at Viltrum's core did nothing besides lessening the kinetic energy impact of the three Viltrumites ramming into the core. This admittedly is a much more reasonable and fair explanation of what happened during this feat, however it still has a few problems. One, Viltrumite War era Mark is capable of taking punches from Conquest, who is demonstrably stronger than him, and Conquest himself is much more durable than Mark and other Viltrumites as well. Additionally, Nolan should downscale slightly from Thragg, who he made bleed despite previously completely tanking his attacks during the Viltrumite War, in fact right after the Viltrum destruction feat. Finally, the rings of Viltrum itself, which we know are composed of the corpses of Viltrumites, is fairly undamaged by the force of the mass being ejected from Viltrum's core, which we can see fly past and hit their bodies. The ring remains visible and undestroyed, the bodies of the Viltrumites still being completely visible. If this amount of force was enough to one-shot kill Viltrumites, a large portion of the ring would have very much appeared destroyed.

As for what I believe the actual reason as to why Thaedus stated that they all could have "died on impact" upon hitting Viltrum's core is somewhat similar to the above intrepretation with a slight differentiation. In short, Viltrum's core is clearly far more dense and tougher than a normal Planet's core due to it's exceptionally stronger gravity than a vast majority of Planets that are known with the exception of the larger gas giants. The density of a Planet, especially at it's center of mass where is where the densest material on Viltrum, which would obviously be far denser than any object on Earth just by the fact that said material presumably includes those which Viltrumites cannot immediately destroy, would be pulled into and be most abundant. With material that can withstand and even kill Viltrumites already existing on Viltrum (this scene for example shows weaponry wielded by Viltrumites severely injuring other Viltrumites without said weapons shattering from the impact, and also Thula's hair-blade not breaking upon hitting Viltrumite skin despite other Planet's swords doing just that), it would be a logical assumption to assume that the culmination of the densest materials on a Planet with said weaponry would produce a wall that could also kill Viltrumites without being damaged. We've also seen how Space Racer destroys solid objects with his gun in the past before, especially with harder objects which he explicitly has a much harder time immediately destroying with Viltrum's core demonstrably being one of them. However, if Space Racer's gun pierced fully through the core, there would be no need for Mark, Nolan, or Thaedus to have flown through it when Space Racer's gun was enough to destroy the core and thus the Planet along with it.

Didn't Thaedus also state that they needed to hit in the right spot along with timing it perfectly?​

This point is entirely irrelevant and is ultimately a rehash of the above argument. The reason Thaedus said this is because Viltrum's core could have very easily re-stabilized had they been even a second off from immediately ramming through the core, hence leading to the Viltrumite-material level core's counter-force impact killing them. Additionally, had they have missed the core, they would have simply flown straight through the Planet and not have necessarily destroyed it in it's entirety. It would also alert Viltrum to their location and have to have them deal with multiple Viltrumites at once, who would also very much be enraged at seeing them attempt to destroy their homeworld.

Would Tech Jacket's Planet Eater foe count as supporting evidence for the 5-B and above tiering?​

Simply put, no. While scaling to Tech Jacket is perfectly fine given the fact he appears as a canonical participant in major Invincible storyline arcs (I.E both Viltrumite Wars), we have quite literally zero context on what that "Planet Eater" thing is capable of besides the most basic and obvious premise, which is simply not enough. We have no clue whatsoever how this entity consumed and/or destroyed these unnamed, completely unknown Planets of unknown sizes, let alone in what timeframe with there being no implication whatsoever he immediately destroyed these Planets in a large explosion or even just via sheer AP and not hax, and so on so forth. Empowering himself with the energy of these said Planets could theroetically grant a Low 4-C rating due to the Earth's mass-energy getting to this level, the Planet Eater is clearly intended narratively to be an at best 5-B entity, so a Low 4-C rating would be undoubtedly inconsistent and contradictory for an already blatantly throwaway character not meant to serve any real purpose in terms of destructive feats, let alone to be one-shotted by a High 6-C character.

Finally, the calc we currently use and which has been accepted links this document at the end, which goes into more detail explaining why the outward mass being ejected from Viltrum is entirely and objectively attributed to Mark, Nolan, and Thaedus, meaning the reasonings in it are presumably accepted.

Conclusion​

Viltrum is clearly much larger than Earth and is portrayed much different narratively than any ordinary Planet that has been shown in the Invincible verse, which Viltrumites have shown no issue of being able to actually literally destroy in the past. Viltrum's much larger size yielding 5-A attack potency from the outward mass ejected, a feat which has already been accepted as being attributed to them and usable on our profiles. Beyond Thaedus stating that the clearly highly dense and tough core of Viltrum would be enough to kill them on impact for Viltrum as a Planet specifically, there are no other contradictions nor anti-feats whatsoever for Viltrumites being able to destroy average, Earth or larger sized Planets on their own, with Viltrum being the only instance where it is ever remotely implied that Planetary destruction is beyond their individual capability. Therefore, 5-A is a consistent rating for Viltrumites at their peak, the outward explosion of Viltrum's far denser, larger than Earth mass would yield this level.

Agree:

Disagree:

If He's Invisible, Why Can I See Him? (neutral): @Hellbeast

 

[Chariot190]

There is so, so much wrong here it's gonna take me literally like 3 days or more to reply

I just wanna preface this with, we need proof, not assumptions. In which almost all of these is guesswork. There's like maybe one or two things we could probably work with but this is a lot of words without substantial proof.
also every planet destroy statement, or punching through planets and more, none are inherently planet level. How it's done matters. Timeframe too. How many attacks, etc.
Anyway see you in a few days ig.

 

[BoastJr]

Do we know the exact number of Viltrum's population and the timeframe in which allen planet was destroyed

 

[Hellbeast]

Mark me as neutral here

 

[StoneKillerz12]

There is so, so much wrong here it's gonna take me literally like 3 days or more to reply

Was this at all necessary? This comes off as extremely condescending and you could have just as easily have made your reply a few days later without implying that everything I said is so stupid that you can't even respond to it immediately. You could have simply spent those "3 days or more" to reply initially instead of announcing you needed to. Also, the usage of the Moyai emoji makes you appear even more condescending.

I just wanna preface this with, we need proof, not assumptions. In which almost all of these is guesswork. There's like maybe one or two things we could probably work with but this is a lot of words without substantial proof.

I mean, how? Logical thinking and assumptions are objectively proving something, and that's literally what power-scaling as an idea is. When we say that characters "should be comparable" to another character, for example, that is an assumption we make based off of the things we see in the story, and that is no different here. I provided proof on how Viltrumites have objectively destroyed ordinary Planets before without outside help or risk of dying upon hitting their core with Viltrum being the only instance of it being implied, along with the fact that Viltrum's population alone forming a ring around the Planet would objectively require it's population to be far larger than Earth's and by extension a far larger surface area to make for stable living conditions with an Earth-like people density per square capita. I don't understand at all how you think most of these are assumptions when it is just narrative reasoning based off of things we see in the story, which is how power-scaling objectively works. It isn't "guess work" when the "guesses" are based off of things which are objectively backed up narratively, and Viltrum being far bigger, denser, and more heavier than Earth is backed up narratively objectively far more than it being just the size of Earth is. Hell, by the same logic, we have no basis to assume Viltrum is even Earth sized at all, and there's narrative reasons to assume that too, like Viltrumites wanting to take other Planets and their curvature appearing different than Earth and such. So why do our current calculations assume the size of Viltrum? That's also objectively guess work by your own logic. The population I got for Viltrum is no different from any other calculation on our site which we use.

You cannot just dismiss the things I stated, which are backed up by actual logic and a basis to assume these things, simply because they aren't stated as literally and as direct as possible. And also, Allen does flat out say in the series written by Kirkman that his Planet was blown up and there is objectively no way you can interpret this to mean anything else than what it says. That is not guesswork and you have no basis to say otherwise.

also every planet destroy statement, or punching through planets and more, none are inherently planet level. How it's done matters. Timeframe too. How many attacks, etc.

When Allen said that Viltrum "blew his planet up" and everything narratively points to Unopa not being there anymore because Viltrum destroyed it, that very clearly means it was literally destroyed. I will give you the fact that it did likely take multiple Viltrumites based off the flashback in the show, but that wasn't the point of proving this. The point was proving that Viltrum's core is blatantly much different from a normal Planet's core, which Viltrumites have had no issue colliding with in the past nor any implication of possibly "dying on impact" without outside help, and to have destroyed a Planet at all, especially splitting one in half like we accept with Thragg's statement, they would have objectively needed to have collided with the Earth's core. Again, why would Thragg risk the lives of the last remaining members of his species that he wants to repopulate if the Earth's core could kill them on impact like Viltrum's did?

Also, the WoG statements were only used as supporting evidence to back up Viltrumites being individually able to deal with the cores of ordinary Planets. Again, to prove that Viltrum is a much different Planet at least and it very reasonably should not be just Earth-sized.

Anyway see you in a few days ig.

Well you could have just saw me those few days without having sent this extremely condescending reply which makes it come across as if I'm a complete moron who said objectively wrong bullshit the whole time that's so easily debunkable, but instead sent this where you repeatedly do just that along with sending a Moyai emoji for added measure.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Do we know the exact number of Viltrum's population and the timeframe in which allen planet was destroyed

We do not have an exact number, but an Earth sized population objectively could not spend hundreds of years straight killing each other every single few seconds of every day and still remain at 0.1% of the population being killed after said hundreds of years, and the number of people who die on Viltrumite per year is absolutely at least in the range of people who die on Earth every day, since Earth-caused deaths outside of murder would not be taken into account for obvious reasons. An Earth-sized population where hundreds of people are stacked on top of another hundreds of people also could not even come close to forming a ring around a Planet, let alone expand past it's circumference.

Unopa's actual destruction wasn't the point of me bringing it up either, the point was that Viltrumites have destroyed Planets and collided with their cores on their own without any implication of needing outside help or risking their lives in the process of hitting the Planets core with Viltrum being the only instance of this happening, meaning that Viltrum is objectively a far different Planet in terms of mass and size than the normal Planets that Viltrumites can deal with without contradictions, which is backed up narratively and by astrophysics. The KE of the outward mass being ejected, which is what the calc we currently accept uses, would absolutely yield beyond Low 5-B results with Viltrum's bigger size taken into account.

 

[Chariot190]

Was this at all necessary? This comes off as extremely condescending and you could have just as easily have made your reply a few days later without implying that everything I said is so stupid that you can't even respond to it immediately.

You're looking to far it into it. I never said it was stupid. Just way to much to reply to quickly. Some of it does make sense, Viltrum probably is massive and dense and so forth, the problem is proof lad. Probably and "yeah I can see it", doesn't work on wiki, we need proof of all this, statements and stuff. Which, is why it's wrong, wrong in the way we do things.

You could have simply spent those "3 days or more" to reply initially instead of announcing you needed to. Also, the usage of the Moyai emoji makes you appear even more condescending.

The moyai is just deadpan. And no, I'm saying so, so it doesn't take off and get all over the place before hand.

I mean, how? Logical thinking and assumptions are objectively proving something,

And you already messed up here. That isn't how the wiki does things. Assumptions will never be proof. The rest isn't relevant to your point nor proof of anything.

You cannot just dismiss the things I stated, which are backed up by actual logic and a basis to assume these things, simply because they aren't stated as literally and as direct as possible.

Yes we can, either it's stated directly, or it isn't, there is no-inbetween when it comes to stuff like this.

And also, Allen does flat out say in the series written by Kirkman that his Planet was blown up and there is objectively no way you can interpret this to mean anything else than what it says. That is not guesswork and you have no basis to say otherwise.

How, when, timeframe,how many involved, etc. There's to much to assume.

When Allen said that Viltrum "blew his planet up" and everything narratively points to Unopa not being there anymore because Viltrum destroyed it, that very clearly means it was literally destroyed. I will give you the fact that it did likely take multiple Viltrumites based off the flashback in the show, but that wasn't the point of proving this.

Which is why it isn't 5-B. A thousand viltrumites blowing up a planet through unknown means, isn't support for anything.

The point was proving that Viltrum's core is blatantly much different from a normal Planet's core, which Viltrumites have had no issue colliding with in the past nor any implication of possibly "dying on impact" without outside help,

This doesn't matter, because the actual feat they scale to, doesn't factor that in at all to begin with. The core could be this omega hyper dense 10000x material.
It wouldn't matter because it's destabilized so they don't scale to it, and it don't matter beause they don't have any feat above the ejected mass to begin with.

and to have destroyed a Planet at all, especially splitting one in half like we accept with Thragg's statement, they would have objectively needed to have collided with the Earth's core.

No they wouldn't, in fact we treat him saying they'd rip the planet in half, as them ripping the planet in half, not ramming into it.

Again, why would Thragg risk the lives of the last remaining members of his species that he wants to repopulate if the Earth's core could kill them on impact like Viltrum's did?

This doesn't matter, not only do we not treat the fact like that. Fact is it doesn't matter if Viltrum's core is special, it's the best feat they got to begin with.

Well you could have just saw me those few days without having sent this extremely condescending reply which makes it come across as if I'm a complete moron who said objectively wrong bullshit the whole time that's so easily debunkable,

I mean a lot of it is easily debunkable, but I didn't say any of that
Stop wanting to be insulted, the major problem is the lack of actual proof and assumptions or extrapolation without sufficient evidence.

but instead sent this where you repeatedly do just that along with sending a Moyai emoji for added measure.

And I'll probably do so again. Moyai is for exasperation.

Regardless, this post proves my point really.
We do not want assumptions, we want proof. You can argue Viltrum should be a big planet, but in the end it doesn't matter because it's an assumption, you need to prove it.
But not only do you need to prove it, you need to prove exactly how big it is.
Viltrumites being able to devastate planets isn't support for 5-A. a 100 low 5-B's could easily blow up a planet too, and some of the feats aren't even overcoming a planet's GBE to begin with.
And sure, Viltrum itself might have a dense core, but the very fact it needed to be destabilized to begin with, means they don't scale to the hypothetical 5-A to begin with, as what they scale to, is the upheaval of mass.

The most relevant thing is the gravity, if you have a scan for it, it could warrant an upgrade, but outside of that, I'm just gonna skip to the end verdict, nothing else works.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

You're looking to far it into it. I never said it was stupid. Just way to much to reply to quickly. Some of it does make sense, Viltrum probably is massive and dense and so forth, the problem is proof lad. Probably and "yeah I can see it", doesn't work on wiki, we need proof of all this, statements and stuff. Which, is why it's wrong, wrong in the way we do things.

No, I'm not. You said right off the bat "there is so, so much wrong with this" and that there's so much wrong with it that you can't even immediately say what, and yes, the Moyai emoji absolutely implies you mocking me, especially in this context. I know you didn't mean to come across like that, but the way you worded your reply made it seem like you were saying exactly what I meant, and you saying "see you in three days IG" came across as even more condescending than it already did. You did not have to say it like that. You could have easily said "I don't have time to reply to a lot of this rn but I have a ton of problems with it", or something like that, and it'd be fine.

And again, that is not how assumptions work at all including on this wiki. The things I am explaining are justifiable reasoning and logic which is backed up narratively, things which calculations which we accept use. I'm not saying "IDK Viltrum probably seems bigger because it being the most important planet in the series" or something like that, I'm explaining why it has basis to be much bigger than Earth based not off of assumptions, but based off of logical reasoning like the Planet's population objectively requiring a far bigger surface area than Earth to fit, the Planet supporting rings while also having greater gravity than Earth being a heavy indication of it's Roche limit being exceptionally greater than Earth's which is backed up by it having multiple moons, which are also traits shared with every single Planet in our Solar System that's bigger than Earth, and the fact that it is the only instance where Viltrumites are actively putting their lives at risk at destroying a Planet. None of those are assumptions, they are things based off of how physics work as well as things flat out stated narratively. The Earth splitting calc we use assumes a 10 px wide split of Earth. Do we have any basis to assume how big the split that Thragg and 37 Viltrumites would be? No. Do we have any basis for how big the splits on Planets are with "splitting the earth in half" statements in general besides the calc assuming a 10 px wide split? No. Do we accept them regardless if they are consistently backed up narratively? Yes, we do. It's not assumptions, it's simple logic based off of astrophysics and the narrative. Absolutely none of what I'm saying are "yeah I can see it", it's things which I explain my reasoning behind based off of the story and by physics, both of which we use commonly for feats in fiction and assume for various calculations. Assuming timeframes for speed feats, basing normal humans in fiction off of average human size in real life, etc etc. Assumptions that have a basis to be assumed are not baseless whatsoever.

And you already messed up here. That isn't how the wiki does things. Assumptions will never be proof. The rest isn't relevant to your point nor proof of anything.

Again, no. I'm not just randomly saying "My gut is telling me Viltrum is bigger so it is", I'm explaining why it should be bigger based off of actual quantifiable justifications. It absolutely is relevant and absolutely is proof of my claims. This is indeed how our wiki operates and is how CRTs have been accepted in the past. Please stop using this fallacious talking point.

How, when, timeframe,how many involved, etc. There's to much to assume.

Not the point whatsoever of what I said. I did not at all try to use Viltrumites destroying Unopa as a valid feat that can be quantified, calced, and it's value used for our profiles. I used it to justify that Viltrumites have destroyed Planets without any implication of risking their lives doing so or needing outside help like a destabilized core, in order to prove that Viltrum is a different case. Again, not an assumption, just logical reasoning for my stance. I'm attempting to prove that Viltrum is a different case from ordinary Planets including Earth, and you've already conceded that Viltrum is likely bigger and more denser than Earth anyway.

Which is why it isn't 5-B. A thousand viltrumites blowing up a planet through unknown means, isn't support for anything.

And I didn't claim as much. I claimed that they destroyed Unopa without any sort of implication they risked their lives doing so. Meaning that for Viltrum's core to propose such a threat, it would have to be immensely more durable and thus more dense. I do not understand at all how you can continue to interpret this as an assumption when it is objectively just logic. Also, we know for a fact they did not have any sort of "destabilizing weapon" like Space Racer's gun, and assuming they did have something like that to destroy the Planet and that they didn't destroy the Planet collectively with their brute strength is a far larger and actually baseless assumption than anything I said here. In order to blow a Planet up, they would absolutely have needed to impact it's core, and that's not an assumption, that's just what would need to be done. You can't scrape past a Planet and cause it to be obliterated, and the only visual instance of a Planet being blown up in Invincible is by Viltrumites hitting it at it's core.

I'm not using this feat to justify 5-A, I'm using to to justify that the KE of Viltrum being destroyed could get in the 5-A ranges.

No they wouldn't, in fact we treat him saying they'd rip the planet in half, as them ripping the planet in half, not ramming into it.

Yes, and to do so, they would have to have went through the entire Planet's diameter to make an even 50/50 split. Tell me how that's at all an assumption when that's literally what "splitting a Planet in half" means. And that includes the Planet's core. Again, if any Planet in the Universe is enough to potentially kill a Viltrumite on impact (which would imply High 7-A impact force kills them btw), then why would Thragg risk the lives of the literal last remaining members of his species just to prove a point? And also, "ripping the Earth in half" by literally opening it like it's a bag of Doritos like you're implying is completely contradictory to what the Earth splitting calc actually uses and also another far bigger assumption than anything I ever said.

This doesn't matter, not only do we not treat the fact like that. Fact is it doesn't matter if Viltrum's core is special, it's the best feat they got to begin with.

No, it very much does matter. There is no logical basis to assume Thragg and 37 Viltrumites were at all risking their lives when they were already severely injured to hit a Planet's core if Thaedus meant that literally any Planet in the Universe would kill them on impact, and there is actual narrative reasoning to back that up and not just "gut feeling" assumptions like you're disingenuously trying to claim all of my arguments are. Meanwhile, assuming that the 37 Viltrumites splitting the Earth in half in any other way from what the standard calc we use for it (which itself has assumptions which shouldn't be used by your logic) proposes happens, is again, another vastly bigger assumption than anything I'm supposedly assuming without basis.

And also yeah, it again 100% matters that Viltrum's core is special, because the KE of it's mass being ejected would yield greater than Low 5-B results even individually, if the core of the Planet is denser than Earth and if the Planet itself and thus the bottom-most mass is far greater than Earth. Again, something you already conceded to is likely.

I mean a lot of it is easily debunkable, but I didn't say any of that
Stop wanting to be insulted, the major problem is the lack of actual proof and assumptions or extrapolation without sufficient evidence.

And just like that, after saying that you weren't insulting me at all you or saying that what I'm saying is stupid, you proceed to do just that again. Saying that a lot of it is easily debunkable is objectively claiming that it is also therefore stupid and I'm stupid for claiming it, and the Moyai is also very commonly used as a way to mock people online nowadays, and it doesn't help much that it's being sent immediately at the end of a sentence which is claiming everything I'm saying is dumb and easily refutable.

I'm not "wanting to be insulted", you're objectively coming across as condescending and are objectively claiming what I'm saying is stupid. But beyond just that, you baselessly dismissing me objectively backing up my stances with reasoning beyond just "gut feeling assumption" and pretending that's what literally every single one of my claims are is profoundly more insulting and disingenuous of you. There is almost nothing I say here that I don't justify my reasoning for based off of the things we see in the story, and is therefore objectively not just a random baseless assumption. So please stop claiming that's all I'm saying.

And I'll probably do so again. Moyai is for exasperation.

Even after claiming you weren't insulting me twice already, you proceed to do so again by taunting me. "I'll probably do it again" after I tell you that your usage of the Moyai emoji comes off as incredibly condescending does not help your case here whatsoever.

Regardless, this post proves my point really.
We do not want assumptions, we want proof. You can argue Viltrum should be a big planet, but in the end it doesn't matter because it's an assumption, you need to prove it.

Your point is nothing but disingenuously misrepresenting what my arguments are, pretending that anything that isn't shoved in your face and described in the most literal way imaginable is automatically unusable even when there is narrative basis to justify these assumptions is profoundly fallacious, and isn't even how CRTs, let alone calcs, our profile justifications, and the idea of power-scaling in general work. Viltrum being a big Planet 100% objectively does matter because it would drastically change the results of the KE from the calcs we currently use, and it being bigger than Earth is an "assumption" which has narrative basis as well as basis in astrophysics, things which I explain at the literal very beginning. You're continuing to pretend that my only basis for Viltrum being bigger than Earth is "um yeah I think it's bigger", which is even similar to what you quoted my argument being, when I repeatedly justify the basis for the assumption. When "assumptions" have basis to be used, we use them. I did prove that Viltrum is bigger than Earth multiple times, and the proof was not just me assuming so for no reason. Case closed.

But not only do you need to prove it, you need to prove exactly how big it is.

I did prove how big it was in the calc I linked here, but that wasn't the point of this CRT, nor is it where you're supposed to put calcs. The purpose of this CRT was to prove that Viltrum is bigger and denser than Earth by a large margin, the actual amount of times bigger it is is saved for the calcs.

Viltrumites being able to devastate planets isn't support for 5-A. a 100 low 5-B's could easily blow up a planet too, and some of the feats aren't even overcoming a planet's GBE to begin with.

And again, that wasn't my claim for supporting them being 5-A. The justification for 5-A was that Viltrum's far larger size than Earth would put the KE value of the mass that was ejected by Mark Nolan and Thaedus, which the calcs that are accepted use and which you yourself said is a valid feat, at far greater values than Low 5-B. Please stop with the strawmen. And that isn't relevant because Space Racer already did that with his gun, Mark Nolan and Thaedus just sent the mass of the Planet flying into space with that much kinetic energy, so that point is irrelevant too.

And sure, Viltrum itself might have a dense core, but the very fact it needed to be destabilized to begin with, means they don't scale to the hypothetical 5-A to begin with, as what they scale to, is the upheaval of mass.

Still not what I claimed. 5-A does not come in from Viltrumites overcoming Viltrum's GBE themselves, it comes from the very same upheaval of mass you claimed, because the mass they would be ejecting would yield 5-A energy based off of Viltrum's larger than Earth size. The calc I linked shows how.

The most relevant thing is the gravity, if you have a scan for it, it could warrant an upgrade, but outside of that, I'm just gonna skip to the end verdict, nothing else works.

The calc we use already uses the 1.25 g value for Viltrum that is stated in the A - Z handbook, but uses the size of Earth for Viltrum's size. My entire argument is Viltrum is not Earth sized, and assuming it is is just as much of an "assumption" by your logic than assuming it is bigger. But unlike the former, my stance does have narrative basis while putting Viltrum at Earth's size absolutely is just "gut feeling" level assumption, which the calc itself even states. Please stop pretending I'm not providing evidence for why Viltrum is bigger than Earth. You don't need a statement clearly shoving in your face it being bigger than Earth for the same reason you don't need a statement clearly shoving in your face that Viltrum is Earth sized.

And also, where at any point does One Piece's Planet for example say it's bigger than a normal Planet, or at any point does WoG say the One Piece Planet is bigger than Earth? By your logic, that stance should be dismissed regardless of how much narratively points to it simply because it's never explicitly stated.

 

[Da3ggman]

Neutral for now, but I'll wait for Chariot to give his thoughts.

 

[Tahoy49574]

My CRT to upscale characters hasn't been applied yet and people are already doing an AP upgrade :"

Anyways, I feel like Viltrum being able to support a ring for thousands of year is a decent point to indicate it's size should be bigger than Earth. If not, at least for the current calc I feel like the chunks ejected into space are going way faster than escape velocity

 

[StoneKillerz12]

My CRT to upscale characters hasn't been applied yet and people are already doing an AP upgrade :"

Anyways, I feel like Viltrum being able to support a ring for thousands of year is a decent point to indicate it's size should be bigger than Earth

I plan on doing another part to this for Atom Eve to get Viltrumite scaling in her 3rd key, btw.

 

[Tahoy49574]

I plan on doing another part to this for Atom Eve to get Viltrumite scaling in her 3rd key, btw.

That's already what I'm doing : P

 

[StoneKillerz12]

That's already what I'm doing : P

oof

Anyway do you agree with 5-A via Viltrum's larger size and density increasing the KE of the mass getting to that level?

 

[Electronic74947]

Neutral for now

 

[Chariot190]

No, I'm not. You said right off the bat "there is so, so much wrong with this" and that there's so much wrong with it that you can't even immediately say what,

Yes, because there is quite a lot wrong, and it's a wall of text so it takes time.

and yes, the Moyai emoji absolutely implies you mocking me, especially in this context.

I'm not, but you can think what you want, I do not care.

I know you didn't mean to come across like that, but the way you worded your reply made it seem like you were saying exactly what I meant, and you saying "see you in three days IG" came across as even more condescending than it already did.

Yes things take time, especially multitasking other verses,

You did not have to say it like that. You could have easily said "I don't have time to reply to a lot of this rn but I have a ton of problems with it", or something like that, and it'd be fine.

It's the exact same thing, unironically. The issues you have with what I said, you could yap and say the same thing about what you just said there. It's semantics.

And again, that is not how assumptions work at all including on this wiki.

It is, we do not guess, we do not assume. You need a statement.

The things I am explaining are justifiable reasoning and logic which is backed up narratively, things which calculations which we accept use.

Justifiable, and actually being the case, are not the same. There is no statement, it's extrapolation.

I'm not saying "IDK Viltrum probably seems bigger because it being the most important planet in the series"

That's almost exactly what's being done here.

or something like that, I'm explaining why it has basis to be much bigger than Earth based not off of assumptions, but based off of logical reasoning like the Planet's population objectively requiring a far bigger surface area than Earth to fit,

This doesn't work, we don't have the actual population values, we do not know how bad it was at its peak. It's two disconnected lines of reason to arrive at a faulty conclusion. We won't use this, we can't use this, you aren't giving actual proof.

the Planet supporting rings while also having greater gravity than Earth being a heavy indication of it's Roche limit being exceptionally greater than Earth's which is backed up by it having multiple moons, which are also traits shared with every single Planet in our Solar System that's bigger than Earth,

It's a fictitious planet. The best you have here is gravity, that's stated, we can maybe work something out. Assuming the same density of Earth, you'd get a radius of 7,964km.
Slightly bigger.

You know what else has multiple moons? Mars. A planet smaller than Earth with lower gravity in our Solar System. A planet having multiple moons doesn't act as proof of what you're arguing. It's not proof.

Yes, a big planet can have a ring system, but so can smaller ones. Chariklo, a small body only about 250 km in diameter, has a ring system. This shows even small celestial objects can have rings under the right conditions. Haumea, a dwarf planet in the Kuiper Belt, has a ring system despite being much smaller than Saturn.
Which is to say, you don't need to be as big as Saturn to have a ring system. A planet being larger are more liable to have one, but a small one having one isn't impossible and is in fact very probable. What matters, is the gravity/radi ratio, which ties directly into the Roche limit.

Saturn, only has a g of 1.07x and 687 kg/m3 in density, which is less than water. That is exponentially less than Viltrum. And while it does have a larger Roche limit, Viltrum's would have a hypothetical roche limit of about 14,143km if it was as big as Earth with 1.25g, (would be higher if it was as dense, like 40k almost), which coupled below with the maximum size, lines up with what we actually see anyway involving the rings. And mind you, that's for something similar to Saturn's rings, which is mostly stuff like ice. A ring of viltrumite bodies isn't going to be torn apart by tidal forces.

For reference, if Saturn was as dense as Earth, it would have like 9.5g, and its roche limit would tank.

Which is to say, arguing rings and a roche limit don't prove anything.

and the fact that it is the only instance where Viltrumites are actively putting their lives at risk at destroying a Planet.

They wanted to do it instantly, they only had 3 of them. It is unlike other cases.
This also doesn't effect the planet's size.

None of those are assumptions, they are things based off of how physics work as well as things flat out stated narratively.

It's a comic book, you want to talk about physics, the physics actively discredit your very proposal as we will get to it eventually. The physics in question don't even support your claim, ring systems, moons, and more all aren't big planet exclusive, the actual gravity and composition of Viltrum caps it as well. The best you'd get with gravity is a 25% buff.

The Earth splitting calc we use assumes a 10 px wide split of Earth. Do we have any basis to assume how big the split that Thragg and 37 Viltrumites would be?

Yes, they say rip apart, not piledrive, punch out, etc. We assume the minimum, not the maximum, it's the safest assumption with the wording used. Just because it can be higher, doesn't mean it is, that isn't how the wiki works.

No. Do we have any basis for how big the splits on Planets are with "splitting the earth in half" statements in general besides the calc assuming a 10 px wide split? No.

We assume the minimum, not the maximum.

Do we accept them regardless if they are consistently backed up narratively? Yes, we do. It's not assumptions, it's simple logic based off of astrophysics and the narrative.

Everything you've just said is an assumption. None of this is stated, none of this is shown, you talk about astrophysics when Mars literally exists, and having higher gravity means nothing for what you're arguing. At least not to that scope.

Absolutely none of what I'm saying are "yeah I can see it", it's things which I explain my reasoning behind based off of the story and by physics,

In which it isn't sufficient. The story does not say Viltrum is 100000km, or any other value between that or Earth or whatever, it does not say it is ultra hyper omega dense (they do say it's kinda like Earth though, so that's a direct parallel).
It doesn't say anything you're concluding.
Physics doesn't even support you, planets can have multiple moons without being big. Big planets can have multiple moons, they can also have none. As with planets even smaller than Earth.

We need statements, if you do not have statements, we will not accept this.

both of which we use commonly for feats in fiction and assume for various calculations. Assuming timeframes for speed feats, basing normal humans in fiction off of average human size in real life, etc etc. Assumptions that have a basis to be assumed are not baseless whatsoever.

And your basis isn't sufficient. An average human having human reactions, is not the same as extrapolating a size off various disconnected lines of logic that in and of themselves have flaws such as a lack of information on how said things were done, timeframe, even just the values.

Again, no. I'm not just randomly saying "My gut is telling me Viltrum is bigger so it is", I'm explaining why it should be bigger based off of actual quantifiable justifications.

Should be, is not "is". It could be bigger, we don't know though, they never say, and the only piece of info we actually have to work with, is gravity. Which is only a bit larger.

They aren't quantifiable which is the thing, we don't KNOW how many Viltrumites it took to blow up Allen's planet, how they did, and how long it took. We do not KNOW the Viltrumite population, and "countless" is most definetely not feasible when the statement was about how much they killed, it's blatant hyperbole, otherwise it may as well be 3-A if taken literally. Ripping a planet apart with 37 characters + the strongest one uses minimums to calc because we don't know the exact methodology, we just can use what would have to be the case, to do it, to get a minimum. But it being a minimum, doesn't mean we can use it as basis for a high end that in and of itself isn't supported, etc.

It absolutely is relevant and absolutely is proof of my claims. This is indeed how our wiki operates and is how CRTs have been accepted in the past. Please stop using this fallacious talking point.

No. Proof, statements, etc. This is not it. This is simply a bunch of disconnected claims, extrapolation off said claims, and then combining them to draw a conclusion that isn't actually said or supported.

Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence.

Not the point whatsoever of what I said. I did not at all try to use Viltrumites destroying Unopa as a valid feat that can be quantified, calced, and it's value used for our profiles. I used it to justify that Viltrumites have destroyed Planets without any implication of risking their lives doing so or needing outside help like a destabilized core, in order to prove that Viltrum is a different case.

This only works if we know how they destroyed it. 1000 viltrumites slowly destroying Unopa, or however it was done, because we don't know, is not the same as 3 of them divebombing a planet and blowing it up in under a second. Which is the problem, you say you aren't using it as a feat, but you are, it would need to be a feat for it to act as support to your claims. But there's to many unknown variables for it to matter.

Again, not an assumption, just logical reasoning for my stance. I'm attempting to prove that Viltrum is a different case from ordinary Planets including Earth, and you've already conceded that Viltrum is likely bigger and more denser than Earth anyway.

It very much is an assumption. For this to work, you would need to assume the Viltrumites blew it up the same way they did Viltrum in a way that was comparable, for it to act as evidence that Viltrum is an especially notable case because they didn't "need to do that" for Unopa.

"likely bigger", is not "is" bigger. It could also be smaller.

In fact that might even make more sense with what we know. If the problem is the core, which would only be a problem due to density, which you have been arguing is above that of Earth's core. It's very possible that Viltrum is simply smaller than Earth, just having more density, which would also lead to the 1.25x gravity.

For example, a planet with half of Earth's radius would need a density of approximately 13,788 kg/m3 (about 2.5 times Earth's density) to have 1.25x Earth's gravity. This would account for the core being harder to destroy and the gravity. Do you see the problem? It goes both ways.

And I didn't claim as much. I claimed that they destroyed Unopa without any sort of implication they risked their lives doing so.

We have no info on how they did it to begin with.

Meaning that for Viltrum's core to propose such a threat, it would have to be immensely more durable and thus more dense.

Sure, ok, it's more dense. And that means what exactly?

They don't actually scale to destroying that in the first place, so it wouldn't effect them. It doesn't mean anything for a planet's size, if anything it would make Viltrum smaller, due to being so dense yet only having 1.25x gravity.

I do not understand at all how you can continue to interpret this as an assumption when it is objectively just logic.

Logical assumptions, are but assumptions all the same. You can frame it however you want, it's still conjecture without actual proof or confirmation, made even worse as a handful of the "logic" is based on stuff without sufficient info like Unopa, and then magnified by the fact this could go the opposite way and make it smaller.

You're simply assuming stuff, we don't base whole verses off assumptions. Sure, the assumptions have a thread of logic behind them, you aren't just saying it just because, but the logic isn't sufficient here to conclude these things.

Also, we know for a fact they did not have any sort of "destabilizing weapon" like Space Racer's gun, and assuming they did have something like that to destroy the Planet and that they didn't destroy the Planet collectively with their brute strength is a far larger and actually baseless assumption than anything I said here.

Nobody said they did, doesn't mean anything. It doesn't make Viltrum some omega huge planet. A 1000 Viltrumites ramming Unopa, would not upgrade anyone either.

Viltrum can have a dense core, this doesn't change anything because they explicitly could not destroy said core so they don't scale to it. Viltrum having a dense core, makes it smaller, not bigger, because we have a cap for it's gravity.

In order to blow a Planet up, they would absolutely have needed to impact it's core, and that's not an assumption, that's just what would need to be done. You can't scrape past a Planet and cause it to be obliterated, and the only visual instance of a Planet being blown up in Invincible is by Viltrumites hitting it at it's core.

This doesn't matter, a million Viltrumites rushing Unopa, would not upgrade anyone.

Viltrum having a more dense core compared to Unopa, wouldn't effect scaling as they don't destroy the core in the first place, as said like 4 times.

I'm not using this feat to justify 5-A, I'm using to to justify that the KE of Viltrum being destroyed could get in the 5-A ranges.

Could is not IS.
It could, it could also get lower because the core is hyper dense while the rest of the planet is basic planet stuff, which with only have 1.25g, would implicate a smaller planet potentially just so dense it exceeds Earth's gravity. Upon which the thing they actually scale to, would be gutted because it would decrease the mass of the upheaval, as well as the speed due to shorter distances scaling off the now smaller planet, essentially downgrading everyone.

We need proof, you are not giving it.

Yes, and to do so, they would have to have went through the entire Planet's diameter to make an even 50/50 split. Tell me how that's at all an assumption when that's literally what "splitting a Planet in half" means. And that includes the Planet's core.

This doesn't matter. We accept it as them literally tearing it in half.
This double doesn't matter because we use the low end, not arbitrarily assume a specific end to support a conclusion.
And this isn't blowing up a planet, it's ripping it in half, they aren't overcoming the GBE. And yes, they're ripping the core in half, but that isn't going to change anything.

Again, if any Planet in the Universe is enough to potentially kill a Viltrumite on impact (which would imply High 7-A impact force kills them btw),

This doesn't support your conclusion. Nobody is saying that, but the problem is, that not being true, doesn't upgrade anyone. EVERY planet feat is vague, or takes numerous Viltrumites to do.
A million Viltrumites divebombing Unopa, would not upgrade anyone.
Them being able to destroy a core of a planet, would not upgrade the Viltrum feat because they couldn't destroy the unique core.

Your "evidence", doesn't actually support the conclusion.

then why would Thragg risk the lives of the literal last remaining members of his species just to prove a point? And also, "ripping the Earth in half" by literally opening it like it's a bag of Doritos like you're implying is completely contradictory to what the Earth splitting calc actually uses and also another far bigger assumption than anything I ever said.

It's what we calc it as, it's why it's used for LS. The calc works under the premise they're literally ripping Earth in half. Hence the work, which gets newtons, which gives them 68.91 Quintillion tons of force LS.

Don't like it, go get that removed first.

No, it very much does matter. There is no logical basis to assume Thragg and 37 Viltrumites were at all risking their lives when they were already severely injured to hit a Planet's core if Thaedus meant that literally any Planet in the Universe would kill them on impact, and there is actual narrative reasoning to back that up and not just "gut feeling" assumptions like you're disingenuously trying to claim all of my arguments are.

Again, doesn't matter, at all.
This does not make the Viltrum feat beyond what we calc it as.
The 37 viltrumite feat is calced already, and most certainly not at 5-A.
They couldn't planet bust the hypothetical omega planet Viltrum without aid so whether or not they can core bust normally doesn't effect anything.

All this is, is disconnected lines of reason, most of which don't have sufficient evidence.

Meanwhile, assuming that the 37 Viltrumites splitting the Earth in half in any other way from what the standard calc we use for it (which itself has assumptions which shouldn't be used by your logic) proposes happens, is again, another vastly bigger assumption than anything I'm supposedly assuming without basis.

We literally accept it as them physically grabbing the earth and ripping it in half. Go downgrade them ig if that's what you want.

And also yeah, it again 100% matters that Viltrum's core is special, because the KE of it's mass being ejected would yield greater than Low 5-B results even individually, if the core of the Planet is denser than Earth and if the Planet itself and thus the bottom-most mass is far greater than Earth. Again, something you already conceded to is likely.

No it wouldn't because they aren't ejecting the core, but the mantle, and we know SR's gun causes mass to destabilize and fall apart anyhow.
Likely, is not is.

I'm not sure what's hard to understand here, we don't calc stuff via 20 disconnected lines of logic. We need to know the size, we do not. It could be bigger, it could be smaller. We don't know so we do not say.

And just like that, after saying that you weren't insulting me at all you or saying that what I'm saying is stupid, you proceed to do just that again. Saying that a lot of it is easily debunkable is objectively claiming that it is also therefore stupid and I'm stupid for claiming it,

Jesus Christ. Ok you need to like actually log off if you think people going "yep this can be debunked" on a debate forum is insulting you.

and the Moyai is also very commonly used as a way to mock people online nowadays, and it doesn't help much that it's being sent immediately at the end of a sentence which is claiming everything I'm saying is dumb and easily refutable.

I don't really give care how other people use it? I use it a specific way that is not intended to be insulting you, it is deadpan, exasperation. The alternantive would be to use the default Frug image but that's big and clunky.

I'm not "wanting to be insulted", you're objectively coming across as condescending and are objectively claiming what I'm saying is stupid.

I'm like 90% sure you're wanting to be insulting given you're twisting what's actually said to be an "insult"
I don't really think you know what objectively means but that's beside the point too, a funny lil emoji is not insulting you, me saying there's stuff wrong here is not insulting you, me saying some of it can be debunked is not insulting you.

But beyond just that, you baselessly dismissing me objectively backing up my stances with reasoning beyond just "gut feeling assumption" and pretending that's what literally every single one of my claims are is profoundly more insulting and disingenuous of you.

You're on a debate forum. If your stuff is insufficient, and gets called out as such, tough luck, accept it.

There is almost nothing I say here that I don't justify my reasoning for based off of the things we see in the story, and is therefore objectively not just a random baseless assumption. So please stop claiming that's all I'm saying.

We literally do not see any of the things you're using for evidence.
They're all just mentioned and never shown. We do not know how said things happened, we do not see half of what would actually need to be shown.

It isn't baseless, but the basis ain't good either. It's extrapolation off vague info we do not have sufficient details on, and then using that extrapolation to arrive at a completely unrelated conclusion.

I am not here to coddle you. Please post actual statements and evidence.

Even after claiming you weren't insulting me twice already, you proceed to do so again by taunting me.

Taunting? Man you're just saying words now.

"I'll probably do it again" after I tell you that your usage of the Moyai emoji comes off as incredibly condescending does not help your case here whatsoever.

Yes, I will probably use the moyai emoji again. It is here on wiki, allowed for anyone to use, I use it to convey exasperation, deadpan or just "bro"-type emoting. You misintepreting it even after I elaborate what it's being used for, ain't on me, but you.

Your point is nothing but disingenuously misrepresenting what my arguments are,

Not really. End of the day, it's conjecture, we do not know, we are never told, the majority of your evidence, in and of itself is conjecture or extrapolation to begin with.

It isn't like we're told "Oh yeah, a Viltrumite dived through Unopa, blowing it up", it's just "The Viltrum army destroyed my planet". How many? How'd they do it? And even if they did, why would this effect the Viltrum feat? That's rhetorical, it would not.
Same with the other stuff, so what if Viltrum has multiple moons? A small planet can too, we have some in the solar system too. Gravity and density? If anything that's evidence for it being smaller, not bigger. Etc.

None of your "proof", is actually proof.

pretending that anything that isn't shoved in your face and described in the most literal way imaginable is automatically unusable even when there is narrative basis to justify these assumptions is profoundly fallacious,

Doesn't matter. The alternative is we don't calc the feat at all because it's unknown. The narrative doesn't implicate what you're suggesting.

We either have a statement, or we don't, there is no-inbetween here.

and isn't even how CRTs, let alone calcs, our profile justifications, and the idea of power-scaling in general work.

That's precisely how it works. We have standard default assumptions, but that isn't what you're proposing. You're proposing we use actual assumptions. It doesn't matter how justified you think they might be, end of the day it's still conjecture and not actually proven, stated, or even shown.

Viltrum being a big Planet 100% objectively does matter because it would drastically change the results of the KE from the calcs we currently use, and it being bigger than Earth is an "assumption" which has narrative basis

There is no narrative basis. The only thing that has basis, is that the core is dense. The core being dense does not effect it's size, if we 1. Don't know how dense it is. 2. It would literally work in reverse.

as well as basis in astrophysics,

It also has basis in being a small planet in astrophysics.
What is being done here, is a "converse accident" or "hasty generalization in reverse". Yes Viltrum has overlap with big planets, and small planets too. The traits aren't big planet exclusive.

things which I explain at the literal very beginning. You're continuing to pretend that my only basis for Viltrum being bigger than Earth is "um yeah I think it's bigger",

That is essentially the argument yes.

which is even similar to what you quoted my argument being, when I repeatedly justify the basis for the assumption.

Yes, an assumption. Not confirmed, not proven.
I could argue it's smaller, I could gather disconnected lines of reasoning to do so, and it wouldn't be impossible either. But that would be an assumption, it doesn't matter if I think the reason for the assumption aren't impossible, it's still guesswork.

When "assumptions" have basis to be used, we use them. I did prove that Viltrum is bigger than Earth multiple times, and the proof was not just me assuming so for no reason. Case closed.

No you didn't. Nothing has been "proven". You're taking things that wouldn't make it impossible, and then treating that non-0% chance as an absolute.

I did prove how big it was in the calc I linked here,

The calc itself has quite a few problems and is built on assumptions. What's the actual populace? What's the actual timeframe? We never even seen them at their peak populace to know if it was bad or not? They can also literally fly and a bunch tend to go to other planets so they have a whole extra axis to work with compared to us, etc. You would need to get it accepted anyway in a blog.

but that wasn't the point of this CRT, nor is it where you're supposed to put calcs.

Correct.

The purpose of this CRT was to prove that Viltrum is bigger and denser than Earth by a large margin, the actual amount of times bigger it is is saved for the calcs.

Nothing proves bigger. Density has a basis. But density would not effect the calc as SR took care of that problem. Density would effect the size, but not in a good way.

And again, that wasn't my claim for supporting them being 5-A. The justification for 5-A was that Viltrum's far larger size than Earth would put the KE value of the mass that was ejected by Mark Nolan and Thaedus,

As above like ten times. The size hasn't been proven by any means. You could even argue the opposite.

which the calcs that are accepted use and which you yourself said is a valid feat, at far greater values than Low 5-B.

The only calc that is accepted, is Low 5-B.

Please stop with the strawmen. And that isn't relevant because Space Racer already did that with his gun, Mark Nolan and Thaedus just sent the mass of the Planet flying into space with that much kinetic energy, so that point is irrelevant too.

Precisely, so all this talk about Unopa, or Earth don't matter. Them being able to fly through a different planet's core, doesn't effect their feat.

The only thing with sufficient evidence, is that Viltrum has a core that's dense. It has 1.25g too, which would corroborate that. But this would make the planet smaller, not bigger, if the problem is simply the core being dense, and the rest of the planet being standard fair, which we know it is because it's compared to Earth, and we see the planet being rocky.

Still not what I claimed. 5-A does not come in from Viltrumites overcoming Viltrum's GBE themselves, it comes from the very same upheaval of mass you claimed, because the mass they would be ejecting would yield 5-A energy based off of Viltrum's larger than Earth size. The calc I linked shows how.

The calc you linked is based on a size that's unfounded.

The calc we use already uses the 1.25 g value for Viltrum that is stated in the A - Z handbook, but uses the size of Earth for Viltrum's size.

Oh even worse, there's not even a small upgrade to be had.

My entire argument is Viltrum is not Earth sized, and assuming it is is just as much of an "assumption" by your logic than assuming it is bigger.

The wiki defaults planet's to being earth-sized. If you do not like that, get that default assumption overturned.

But unlike the former, my stance does have narrative basis while putting Viltrum at Earth's size absolutely is just "gut feeling" level assumption

It literally doesn't. What does "narrative" basis even mean?
Nobody in Invincible calls it a big planet. Nobody calls Earth small. A bigger planet exists, but that planet isn't Viltrum nor do any comparisons get made between them.
The core itself seems tough, but the core being more dense doesn't correlate with a bigger size. The planet has 1.25g, but it could be the exact same size as Earth, and yet still have that, precisely because of the more dense core. In fact, the smaller Viltrum is, while having 1.25x gravity, would directly magnify the density of the planet's core which would tie into it being to dense to bust without aid.

There's so many ways to go about this without arriving at your conclusion.

, which the calc itself even states. Please stop pretending I'm not providing evidence for why Viltrum is bigger than Earth. You don't need a statement clearly shoving in your face it being bigger than Earth for the same reason you don't need a statement clearly shoving in your face that Viltrum is Earth sized.

Earth sized is just what we assume as a default as a wiki out of necessity, the alternative, would be to simply not calc it at all.

Otherwise, yes, we do need a statement. That or an actual method to calc it, but corpses isn't it, that calc itself is flimsy.

And also, where at any point does One Piece's Planet for example say it's bigger than a normal Planet, or at any point does WoG say the One Piece Planet is bigger than Earth? By your logic, that stance should be dismissed regardless of how much narratively points to it simply because it's never explicitly stated.

They have actual stated sizes of things, in which the planet is scaled off said things because we're given a direct 1:1 comparison.
That is not what is being done here.

Anyway yeah no, proof, conjecture, extrapolation, whatever, is not sufficient. To summarize.

It doesn't matter if they can rip through other cores, doing so isn't inherently above Low 5-B. Especially when it's almost always a shared effort between numerous Viltrumites.
Them being able to do so, doesn't effect the Viltrumite feat because they don't actually effect the core and can't explicitly, only eject the mass.
While there's basis for Viltrum's core being extra tough, that doesn't correlate with actual size.
While Viltrum has 1.25g, that doesn't mean it's bigger, gravity isn't tied to just being big, but the ratio between size and density. It could be smaller, just as it could be larger.
An argument can be made that Viltrum is actually smaller than Earth, as simply having 1.25g, while allegedly having this hyper mega dense core, while having standard density for the mantle and what not, would make it feasibly smaller, but all the same, would directly cap how big it can get.
Moons and what not mean nothing, small planets can and do have multiple moons.
Smaller planets, such as Earth, can have a ring system, plus a roche limit that aligns with what we see in Viltrum's case.

To now explain why this absolutely 100% can't be the case.
Given we talk of astrophysics, there's actually a pretty huge problem here. The fact Viltrum's density stems solely from its core, as the mantle and crust are visibly simply earth-like. There comes a cap to how big it can truly be, due to the fact it only has 1.25g.

Surface gravity formula is g=R2GM, remember this, I'm not gonna type it out every time, which is what the 1.25g refers to, means that as R increases, M scales with R3, but surface gravity scales inversely with R^2. This means the increasing radius increases gravity initially but the average density messes with that. If Viltrum's core's density is what drives higher gravity. And as the mantle and crust are "normal" (Earth-like), the average density decreases as the planet grows larger because the core becomes a smaller fraction of the total volume. Beyond a certain radius, the crust and mantle take up more of the total volume, which in turn affects the average density and surface gravity begins to decrease despite it getting larger as the density.

To figure out a cap, we need to know the balance between the proportion of the planet's volume made up by the dense core. As a note larger planets have disproportionately thicker mantles and crusts usually, reducing the gravitational contribution of the dense core. Hypothetically, let's say the core is dense like 12,000 kg/m3 like Earth, and the mantle is standard like 5000 kg/m3.
As the planet gets larger the core’s relative contribution to the avg diminishes. After some point the crust and mantle dominate that shit, tanking the average density. But whatever, that's a segue.

We have the known gravity value, it is 1.25g, it must be maintained.
The "cap" for a planet larger than Earth with a dense core and Earth-like mantle and crust is physically can not be beyond 1.5 to 2x Earth as beyond this, actually keeping the stated 1.25g becomes increasingly difficult because the mantle and crust dilute the average density, causing surface gravity to decrease, or in this case, increase as the density is that of Earth due to the composition.

Due to the very fact that Viltrum has Earth-like materials/density, with a super core at that. It can't get to big, while still retaining the 1.25g.
That's because surface gravity will continue to increase as a planet gets bigger (while maintaining the same density), and it will never decrease, so long as the density remains the same.
If the density stays the same, but the planet's mass increases as its radius gets larger, this goes back to the g=GMR2g formula as because surface gravity increases linearly with radius if density remains constant. Larger planets will always have stronger gravity as long as their density stays the same. It simply goes up, and up, and up. We know Viltrum has a mere 1.25g. Do you see the issue? For Viltrum to be larger by a relevant amount, it would need to be less dense compared to Earth. It having not only a similar density, but even a SUPER DENSE core, caps it super fast. This is made worse because a planet's mass grows quicker than the radius, which leads to a quicker increase in gravity, due to cube law. The only way for gravity to decrease as a planet gets bigger, is if density decreases as it grows, such as gases instead of rock.

Now irl, gravity doesn't always increase due to size linearly, because actual planets often get less dense as they grow larger, for example, Jupiter and Saturn while huge, trade density for size (but even then it isn't enough, Jupiter despite being so low in density, is still 3x Earth in gravity, simply because it's so huge anyway, that's twice Viltrum, while being many times less dense compared to Viltrum).
For example, if Jupiter kept its size, but had Earth-density, it'd have a gravity of 110.2 m/s2, or about 11.2 times Earth's gravity.

So here we have a planet, a planet of unknown size mind you, but we know three things.
1. It's density is like the of Earth due to composition of its crust and mantle.
2. The core is actually above Earth, and is implied to be super dense.
3. It has a gravity of 1.25g.

This actively caps how big it can actually get, instead of leading to it being this huge planet like you're claiming, it can not get to big, because it would go over the 1.25g it's confirmed to have.
The ony way it could get bigger past a certain point, would be if its density becomes lower, but we know that isn't true, we know it has a crust made of rocky material. And even worse is that core which would cap it even quicker.

Think I mentioned this already, but
(3 * 12.25) / (4 * pi * (6.674 * 10^-11) * 5515) = 7945399.90m. That is the MAXIMUM size of Viltrum, if it has the density of Earth, in order to retain 1.25g. It can'tget any bigger, any bigger while retaining that density, and it would go over 1.25g.

But for the sake of it, let's ignore the core, assume the core doesn't exist, Viltrum is simply a big ball of rock in this hypothetical, with a density of 3000kg/m3. It would cap at 14,606.29km radius, any more and even this would go over 1.25g.

But, as you have argued, Viltrum has a super dense core, it wouldn't be either of those, it'd actually be even lower, because the dense core is spiking density compared to say, Earth's core, while retaining the rest of Earth's general density. For example, again, let's be wild and say that Viltrum's omega core is the densest naturally occurring metal osmium, with a density of like 22590kg/m3, which is only like 2x that of Earth, the planet would be actively smaller than Earth. By quite a bit actually (1,940km~ radius).

So, no, Viltrum straight up can't be a huge planet. It's impossible.
The only way it could be, is if it was less dense compared to Earth, otherwise it will quickly exceed the only real actual info we have on it, that being the gravity.
And before you argue the core could be smaller/bigger. The bigger the core, the more dense the planet is, and thus would make it smaller to retain the confirmed gravity. And the smaller the core is, would in fact enable it to get bigger, because the part that is more dense takes up less volume and thus the ratio, but even just not having a core at all and simply being a ball of rock, would cap it at like 14600km radius, so no, even at the absoute most, even just ignoring the core altogether, and even just ignoring the fact it's dense, would cap it fast all the same.

Tldr;
Having no dense core at all = 2.29x bigger than Earth.
Having the same density of earth including the same core = 1.25x bigger than earth.
And **** it, a planet with 1.25g but as dense as osmium would be 1940km radius, or only 30.5% of Earth's size to give people an idea of how Viltrum being dense while having a stated gravity, is actually capping it due to how gravity works.

This CRT doesn't work, the evidence given even caps the planet at being around Earth in size, if not lower. And the rest just don't effect anything. I'm not going to reply here again, there's no need to. Someone ping me if an actual statement gets brought forth saying it's huge, because otherwise it's density and gravity invalidate the proposal.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Yes, because there is quite a lot wrong, and it's a wall of text so it takes time.

I'm not, but you can think what you want, I do not care.

Yes things take time, especially multitasking other verses,

It's the exact same thing, unironically. The issues you have with what I said, you could yap and say the same thing about what you just said there. It's semantics.

It is, we do not guess, we do not assume. You need a statement.

Justifiable, and actually being the case, are not the same. There is no statement, it's extrapolation.

That's almost exactly what's being done here.

This doesn't work, we don't have the actual population values, we do not know how bad it was at its peak. It's two disconnected lines of reason to arrive at a faulty conclusion. We won't use this, we can't use this, you aren't giving actual proof.

It's a fictitious planet. The best you have here is gravity, that's stated, we can maybe work something out. Assuming the same density of Earth, you'd get a radius of 7,964km.
Slightly bigger.

You know what else has multiple moons? Mars. A planet smaller than Earth with lower gravity in our Solar System. A planet having multiple moons doesn't act as proof of what you're arguing. It's not proof.

Yes, a big planet can have a ring system, but so can smaller ones. Chariklo, a small body only about 250 km in diameter, has a ring system. This shows even small celestial objects can have rings under the right conditions. Haumea, a dwarf planet in the Kuiper Belt, has a ring system despite being much smaller than Saturn.
Which is to say, you don't need to be as big as Saturn to have a ring system. A planet being larger are more liable to have one, but a small one having one isn't impossible and is in fact very probable. What matters, is the gravity/radi ratio, which ties directly into the Roche limit.

Saturn, only has a g of 1.07x and 687 kg/m3 in density, which is less than water. That is exponentially less than Viltrum. And while it does have a larger Roche limit, Viltrum's would have a hypothetical roche limit of about 14,143km if it was as big as Earth with 1.25g, (would be higher if it was as dense, like 40k almost), which coupled below with the maximum size, lines up with what we actually see anyway involving the rings. And mind you, that's for something similar to Saturn's rings, which is mostly stuff like ice. A ring of viltrumite bodies isn't going to be torn apart by tidal forces.

For reference, if Saturn was as dense as Earth, it would have like 9.5g, and its roche limit would tank.

Which is to say, arguing rings and a roche limit don't prove anything.

They wanted to do it instantly, they only had 3 of them. It is unlike other cases.
This also doesn't effect the planet's size.

It's a comic book, you want to talk about physics, the physics actively discredit your very proposal as we will get to it eventually. The physics in question don't even support your claim, ring systems, moons, and more all aren't big planet exclusive, the actual gravity and composition of Viltrum caps it as well. The best you'd get with gravity is a 25% buff.


Yes, they say rip apart, not piledrive, punch out, etc. We assume the minimum, not the maximum, it's the safest assumption with the wording used. Just because it can be higher, doesn't mean it is, that isn't how the wiki works.

We assume the minimum, not the maximum.

Everything you've just said is an assumption. None of this is stated, none of this is shown, you talk about astrophysics when Mars literally exists, and having higher gravity means nothing for what you're arguing. At least not to that scope.

In which it isn't sufficient. The story does not say Viltrum is 100000km, or any other value between that or Earth or whatever, it does not say it is ultra hyper omega dense (they do say it's kinda like Earth though, so that's a direct parallel).
It doesn't say anything you're concluding.
Physics doesn't even support you, planets can have multiple moons without being big. Big planets can have multiple moons, they can also have none. As with planets even smaller than Earth.

We need statements, if you do not have statements, we will not accept this.

And your basis isn't sufficient. An average human having human reactions, is not the same as extrapolating a size off various disconnected lines of logic that in and of themselves have flaws such as a lack of information on how said things were done, timeframe, even just the values.

Should be, is not "is". It could be bigger, we don't know though, they never say, and the only piece of info we actually have to work with, is gravity. Which is only a bit larger.

They aren't quantifiable which is the thing, we don't KNOW how many Viltrumites it took to blow up Allen's planet, how they did, and how long it took. We do not KNOW the Viltrumite population, and "countless" is most definetely not feasible when the statement was about how much they killed, it's blatant hyperbole, otherwise it may as well be 3-A if taken literally. Ripping a planet apart with 37 characters + the strongest one uses minimums to calc because we don't know the exact methodology, we just can use what would have to be the case, to do it, to get a minimum. But it being a minimum, doesn't mean we can use it as basis for a high end that in and of itself isn't supported, etc.

No. Proof, statements, etc. This is not it. This is simply a bunch of disconnected claims, extrapolation off said claims, and then combining them to draw a conclusion that isn't actually said or supported.

Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence.

This only works if we know how they destroyed it. 1000 viltrumites slowly destroying Unopa, or however it was done, because we don't know, is not the same as 3 of them divebombing a planet and blowing it up in under a second. Which is the problem, you say you aren't using it as a feat, but you are, it would need to be a feat for it to act as support to your claims. But there's to many unknown variables for it to matter.

It very much is an assumption. For this to work, you would need to assume the Viltrumites blew it up the same way they did Viltrum in a way that was comparable, for it to act as evidence that Viltrum is an especially notable case because they didn't "need to do that" for Unopa.

"likely bigger", is not "is" bigger. It could also be smaller.

In fact that might even make more sense with what we know. If the problem is the core, which would only be a problem due to density, which you have been arguing is above that of Earth's core. It's very possible that Viltrum is simply smaller than Earth, just having more density, which would also lead to the 1.25x gravity.

For example, a planet with half of Earth's radius would need a density of approximately 13,788 kg/m3 (about 2.5 times Earth's density) to have 1.25x Earth's gravity. This would account for the core being harder to destroy and the gravity. Do you see the problem? It goes both ways.

We have no info on how they did it to begin with.

Sure, ok, it's more dense. And that means what exactly?

They don't actually scale to destroying that in the first place, so it wouldn't effect them. It doesn't mean anything for a planet's size, if anything it would make Viltrum smaller, due to being so dense yet only having 1.25x gravity.

Logical assumptions, are but assumptions all the same. You can frame it however you want, it's still conjecture without actual proof or confirmation, made even worse as a handful of the "logic" is based on stuff without sufficient info like Unopa, and then magnified by the fact this could go the opposite way and make it smaller.

You're simply assuming stuff, we don't base whole verses off assumptions. Sure, the assumptions have a thread of logic behind them, you aren't just saying it just because, but the logic isn't sufficient here to conclude these things.

Nobody said they did, doesn't mean anything. It doesn't make Viltrum some omega huge planet. A 1000 Viltrumites ramming Unopa, would not upgrade anyone either.

Viltrum can have a dense core, this doesn't change anything because they explicitly could not destroy said core so they don't scale to it. Viltrum having a dense core, makes it smaller, not bigger, because we have a cap for it's gravity.

This doesn't matter, a million Viltrumites rushing Unopa, would not upgrade anyone.

Viltrum having a more dense core compared to Unopa, wouldn't effect scaling as they don't destroy the core in the first place, as said like 4 times.

Could is not IS.
It could, it could also get lower because the core is hyper dense while the rest of the planet is basic planet stuff, which with only have 1.25g, would implicate a smaller planet potentially just so dense it exceeds Earth's gravity. Upon which the thing they actually scale to, would be gutted because it would decrease the mass of the upheaval, as well as the speed due to shorter distances scaling off the now smaller planet, essentially downgrading everyone.

We need proof, you are not giving it.

This doesn't matter. We accept it as them literally tearing it in half.
This double doesn't matter because we use the low end, not arbitrarily assume a specific end to support a conclusion.
And this isn't blowing up a planet, it's ripping it in half, they aren't overcoming the GBE. And yes, they're ripping the core in half, but that isn't going to change anything.

This doesn't support your conclusion. Nobody is saying that, but the problem is, that not being true, doesn't upgrade anyone. EVERY planet feat is vague, or takes numerous Viltrumites to do.
A million Viltrumites divebombing Unopa, would not upgrade anyone.
Them being able to destroy a core of a planet, would not upgrade the Viltrum feat because they couldn't destroy the unique core.

Your "evidence", doesn't actually support the conclusion.

It's what we calc it as, it's why it's used for LS. The calc works under the premise they're literally ripping Earth in half. Hence the work, which gets newtons, which gives them 68.91 Quintillion tons of force LS.

Don't like it, go get that removed first.

Again, doesn't matter, at all.
This does not make the Viltrum feat beyond what we calc it as.
The 37 viltrumite feat is calced already, and most certainly not at 5-A.
They couldn't planet bust the hypothetical omega planet Viltrum without aid so whether or not they can core bust normally doesn't effect anything.

All this is, is disconnected lines of reason, most of which don't have sufficient evidence.

We literally accept it as them physically grabbing the earth and ripping it in half. Go downgrade them ig if that's what you want.

No it wouldn't because they aren't ejecting the core, but the mantle, and we know SR's gun causes mass to destabilize and fall apart anyhow.
Likely, is not is.

I'm not sure what's hard to understand here, we don't calc stuff via 20 disconnected lines of logic. We need to know the size, we do not. It could be bigger, it could be smaller. We don't know so we do not say.

Jesus Christ. Ok you need to like actually log off if you think people going "yep this can be debunked" on a debate forum is insulting you.

I don't really give care how other people use it? I use it a specific way that is not intended to be insulting you, it is deadpan, exasperation. The alterantive would be to use the default Frug image but that's big and clunky.

I'm like 90% sure you're wanting to be insulting given you're twisting what's actually said to be an "insult"
I don't really think you know what objectively means but that's beside the point too, a funny lil emoji is not insulting you, me saying there's stuff wrong here is not insulting you, me saying some of it can be debunked is not insulting you.

You're on a debate forum. If your stuff is insufficient, and gets called out as such, tough luck, accept it.

We literally do not see any of the things you're using for evidence.
They're all just mentioned and never shown. We do not know how said things happened, we do not see half of what would actually need to be shown.

It isn't baseless, but the basis ain't good either. It's extrapolation off vague info we do not have sufficient details on, and then using that extrapolation to arrive at a completely unrelated conclusion.

I am not here to coddle you. Please post actual statements and evidence.

Taunting? Man you're just saying words now.

Yes, I will probably use the moyai emoji again. It is here on wiki, allowed for anyone to use, I use it to convey exasperation, deadpan or just "bro"-type emoting. You misintepreting it even after I elaborate what it's being used for, ain't on me, but you.

Not really. End of the day, it's conjecture, we do not know, we are never told, the majority of your evidence, in and of itself is conjecture or extrapolation to begin with.

It isn't like we're told "Oh yeah, a Viltrumite dived through Unopa, blowing it up", it's just "The Viltrum army destroyed my planet". How many? How'd they do it? And even if they did, why would this effect the Viltrum feat? That's rhetorical, it would not.
Same with the other stuff, so what if Viltrum has multiple moons? A small planet can too, we have some in the solar system too. Gravity and density? If anything that's evidence for it being smaller, not bigger. Etc.

None of your "proof", is actually proof.

Doesn't matter. The alternative is we don't calc the feat at all because it's unknown. The narrative doesn't implicate what you're suggesting.

We either have a statement, or we don't, there is no-inbetween here.

That's precisely how it works. We have standard default assumptions, but that isn't what you're proposing. You're proposing we use actual assumptions. It doesn't matter how justified you think they might be, end of the day it's still conjecture and not actually proven, stated, or even shown.

There is no narrative basis. The only thing that has basis, is that the core is dense. The core being dense does not effect it's size, if we 1. Don't know how dense it is. 2. It would literally work in reverse.

It also has basis in being a small planet in astrophysics.
What is being done here, is a "converse accident" or "hasty generalization in reverse". Yes Viltrum has overlap with big planets, and small planets too. The traits aren't big planet exclusive.


That is essentially the argument yes.

Yes, an assumption. Not confirmed, not proven.
I could argue it's smaller, I could gather disconnected lines of reasoning to do so, and it wouldn't be impossible either. But that would be an assumption, it doesn't matter if I think the reason for the assumption aren't impossible, it's still guesswork.

No you didn't. Nothing has been "proven". You're taking things that wouldn't make it impossible, and then treating that non-0% chance as an absolute.

The calc itself has quite a few problems and is built on assumptions. What's the actual populace? What's the actual timeframe? We never even seen them at their peak populace to know if it was bad or not? They can also literally fly and a bunch tend to go to other planets so they have a whole extra axis to work with compared to us, etc. You would need to get it accepted anyway in a blog.

Correct.

Nothing proves bigger. Density has a basis. But density would not effect the calc as SR took care of that problem. Density would effect the size, but not in a good way.

As above like ten times. The size hasn't been proven by any means. You could even argue the opposite.

The only calc that is accepted, is Low 5-B.

Precisely, so all this talk about Unopa, or Earth don't matter. Them being able to fly through a different planet's core, doesn't effect their feat.

The only thing with sufficient evidence, is that Viltrum has a core that's dense. It has 1.25g too, which would corroborate that. But this would make the planet smaller, not bigger, if the problem is simply the core being dense, and the rest of the planet being standard fair, which we know it is because it's compared to Earth, and we see the planet being rocky.

The calc you linked is based on a size that's unfounded.

Oh even worse, there's not even a small upgrade to be had.

The wiki defaults planet's to being earth-sized. If you do not like that, get that default assumption overturned.

It literally doesn't. What does "narrative" basis even mean?
Nobody in Invincible calls it a big planet. Nobody calls Earth small. A bigger planet exists, but that planet isn't Viltrum nor do any comparisons get made between them.
The core itself seems tough, the core being more dense doesn't correlate with a bigger size. The planet has 1.25g, but it could be the exact same size as Earth, and yet have that, precisely because of the more dense core. In fact, the smaller Viltrum is, wile having 1.25x gravity, would directly magnify the density of the planet's core which would tie into it being to dense to bust without aid.

There's so many ways to go about this without arriving at your conclusion.

Earth sized is just what we assume as a default as a wiki out of necessity, the alternative, would be to simply not calc it at all.

Otherwise, yes, we do need a statement. That or an actual method to calc it, but corpses isn't it, that calc itself is flimsy.

They have actual stated sizes of things, in which the planet is scaled off said things because we're given a direct 1:1 comparison.
That is not what is being done here.

Anyway yeah no, proof, conjecture, extrapolation, whatever, is not sufficient. To summarize.

It doesn't matter if they can rip through other cores, doing so isn't inherently above Low 5-B. Especially when it's almost always a shared effort between numerous Viltrumites.
Them being able to do so, doesn't effect the Viltrumite feat because they don't actually effect the core and can't explicitly, only eject the mass.
While there's basis for Viltrum's core being extra tough, that doesn't correlate with actual size.
While Viltrum has 1.25g, that doesn't mean it's bigger, gravity isn't tied to just being big, but the ratio between size and density. It could be smaller, just as it could be larger.
An argument can be made that Viltrum is actually smaller than Earth, as simply having 1.25g, while allegedly having this hyper mega dense core, while having standard density for the mantle and what not, would make it feasibly smaller, but all the same, would directly cap how big it can get.
Moons and what not mean nothing, small planets can and do have multiple moons.
Smaller planets, such as Earth, can have a ring system, plus a roche limit that aligns with what we see in Viltrum's case.

To now explain why this absolutely 100% can't be the case.
Given we talk of astrophysics, there's actually a pretty huge problem here. The fact Viltrum's density stems solely from its core, as the mantle and crust are visibly simply earth-like. There comes a cap to how big it can truly be, due to the fact it only has 1.25g.

Surface gravity formula is g=R2GM, remember this, I'm not gonna type it out every time, which is what the 1.25g refers to, means that as RR increases, MM scales with
R3, but surface gravity scales inversely with R^2R2. This means the increasing radius increases gravity initially but the average density messes with that. If Viltrum's core's density is what drives higher gravity. And as the mantle and crust are "normal" (Earth-like), the average density decreases as the planet grows larger because the core becomes a smaller fraction of the total volume. Beyond a certain radius, the crust and mantle take up more of the total volume, which in turn affects the average density and surface gravity begins to decrease despite it getting larger as the density.

To figure out a cap, we need to know the balance between the proportion of the planet's volume made up by the dense core. As a note larger planets have disproportionately thicker mantles and crusts usually, reducing the gravitational contribution of the dense core. Hypothetically, let's say the core is dense like 12,000 kg/m3 like Earth, and the mantle is standard like 5000 kg/m3.
As the planet gets larger the core’s relative contribution to the avg diminishes. After some point the crust and mantle dominate that shit, tanking the average density. But whatever, that's a segue.

We have the known gravity value, it is 1.25g, it must be maintained.
The "cap" for a planet larger than Earth with a dense core and Earth-like mantle and crust is physically can not be beyond 1.5 to 2x Earth as beyond this, actually keeping the stated 1.25g becomes increasingly difficult because the mantle and crust dilute the average density, causing surface gravity to decrease, or in this case, increase as the density is that of Earth due to the composition.

Due to the very fact that Viltrum has Earth-like materials/density, with a super core at that. It can't get to big, while still retaining the 1.25g.
That's because surface gravity will continue to increase as a planet gets bigger (while maintaining the same density), and it will never decrease, so long as the density remains the same.
If the density stays the same, but the planet's mass increases as its radius gets larger, this goes back to the g=GMR2g formula as because surface gravity increases linearly with radius if density remains constant. Larger planets will always have stronger gravity as long as their density stays the same. It simply goes up, and up, and up. We know Viltrum has a mere 1.25g. Do you see the issue? For Viltrum to be larger by a relevant amount, it would need to be less dense compared to Earth. It having not only a similar density, but even a SUPER DENSE core, caps it super fast. This is made worse because a planet's mass grows quicker than the radius, which leads to a quicker increase in gravity, due to cube law. The only way for gravity to decrease as a planet gets bigger, is if density decreases as it grows, such as gases instead of rock.

Now irl, gravity doesn't always increase due to size linearly, because actual planets often get less dense as they grow larger, for example, Jupiter and Saturn while huge, trade density for size (but even then it isn't enough, Jupiter despite being so low in density, is still 3x Earth in gravity, simply because it's so huge anyway, that's twice Viltrum, while being many times less dense compared to Viltrum).
For example, if Jupiter kept its size, but had Earth-density, it'd have a gravity of 110.2 m/s2, or about 11.2 times Earth's gravity.

So here we have a planet, a planet of unknown size mind you, but we know three things.
1. It's density is like the of Earth due to composition of its crust and mantle.
2. The core is actually above Earth, and is implied to be super dense.
3. It has a gravity of 1.25g.

This actively caps how big it can actually get, instead of leading to it being this huge planet like you're claiming, it can not get to big, because it would go over the 1.25g it's confirmed to have.
The ony way it could get bigger past a certain point, would be if its density becomes lower, but we know that isn't true, we know it has a crust made of rocky material. And even worse is that core which would cap it even quicker.

Think I mentioned this already, but
(3 * 12.25) / (4 * pi * (6.674 * 10^-11) * 5515) = 7945399.90m. That is the MAXIMUM size of Viltrum, if it has the density of Earth, in order to retain 1.25g. It can'tget any bigger, any bigger while retaining that density, and it would go over 1.25g.

But for the sake of it, let's ignore the core, assume the core doesn't exist, Viltrum is simply a big ball of rock in this hypothetical, with a density of 3000kg/m3. It would cap at 14,606.29km radius, any more and even this would go over 1.25g.

But, as you have argued, Viltrum has a super dense core, it wouldn't be either of those, it'd actually be even lower, because the dense core is spiking density compared to say, Earth's core, while retaining the rest of Earth's general density. For example, again, let's be wild and say that Viltrum's omega core is the densest naturally occurring metal osmium, with a density of like 22590kg/m3, which is only like 2x that of Earth, the planet would be actively smaller than Earth. By quite a bit actually (1,940km~ radius).

So, no, Viltrum straight up can't be a huge planet. It's impossible.
The only way it could be, is if it was less dense compared to Earth, otherwise it will quickly exceed the only real actual info we have on it, that being the gravity.
And before you argue the core could be smaller/bigger. The bigger the core, the more dense the planet is, and thus would make it smaller to retain the confirmed gravity. And the smaller the core is, would in fact enable it to get bigger, because the part that is more dense takes up less volume and thus the ratio, but even just not having a core at all and simply being a ball of rock, would cap it at like 14600km radius, so no, even at the absoute most, even just ignoring the core altogether, and even just ignoring the fact it's dense, would cap it fast all the same.

Tldr;
Having no dense core at all = 2.29x bigger than Earth.
Having the same density of earth including the same core = 1.25x bigger than earth.
And **** it, a planet with 1.25g but as dense as osmium would be 1940km radius, or only 30.5% of Earth's size to give people an idea of how Viltrum being dense while having a stated gravity, is actually capping it due to how gravity works.

This CRT doesn't work, the evidence given even caps the planet at being around Earth in size, if not lower. And the rest just don't effect anything. I'm not going to reply here again, there's no need to. Someone ping me if an actual statement gets brought forth saying it's huge, because otherwise it's density and gravity invalidate the proposal.

I have a lot to say about this still, but a few things I need to address before responding in full.

1. We never even got into at all how the Planet dwarfs it's moons, which my calc (and Death Battle's, which also explains how the Planet is bigger with the Roche limit idea but there was no way I was ever gonna bring that up without people shouting "EWWW DEATH BATTLE BAD!!!!" baselessly instead of actually discrediting their calculation, something I'm 100% positive you would do as well, and no, before anyone quotes this I do not think Omni-Man or anyone in the Invincible verse has a chance in hell against Bardock) and multiple others do too. Scaling it to it's moons in the background via using the minimum orbital distance and minimum moon size gets the Planet to over 30,000 km in size. You never addressed that calc, which in all fairness you aren't expected to. I just thought it'd be necessary to point out. Planet size calcs are acceptable to use unless the story explicitly shows the Planet being of average size.

2. I don't care how many times you keep gaslighting me and trying to tell me that "Chill bro it's just an emoji bro", you were objectively coming across as condescending whether you like it or not. The more times I call you out for it you continue to be condescending. This plus all of the people who are mindlessly following you by spamming your replies with likes (some of the people who liked your comments have a history of being blatantly biased against Invincible and of trying to purposely get characters from Invincible to lose to other characters, FYI). And you still continue to double down instead of apologizing for coming across the way you did. You also get even worse here as you basically say multiple times "Yeah, that's the way it is, get over it!", which even if it was true, is not at all a respectable thing to say. Justifying it because "lol it's a debate thread" is honestly laughable too. Just apologize and be done with it, you were objectively being condescending and continue to get even worse.

3. Again, Planets like One Piece are never ever stated at any point to be big Planets either, or even in WoG is One Piece's world stated to be bigger than Earth. Yet we accept it being larger than Earth due to the properties it is shown to have, and Viltrum's population having a ring around it at minimum objectively puts it's population far larger than Earth. If you stacked rows of 500 dead bodies on top of each other for every human that's ever lived, you would barely surpass the Earth's diameter in terms of the ring's circumference. It's not that hard to understand, just because we don't have an exact population number doesn't mean we can't justify it being much bigger than Earth.

4. I say "objectively" because it is indeed objectively how things work when I say that beforehand. You not agreeing does not mean I don't know what it means.

5. I will concede on what your arguments regarding how density and gravity don't necessarily affect the Planet's size. However, the Roche limit idea certainly does, as an Earth-sized Planet cannot support rings for thousands of years which I'm sorry, is objectively true, and let alone of dead bodies. Earth-sized Planets that are perfect spheres cannot have rings in the way Viltrum does.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

@Soupywolf5 You do realize you blindly agreeing with Chariot is insanely hypocritical given what you buy for Steven Universe stats, correct?

 

[Soupywolf5]

@Soupywolf5 You do realize you blindly agreeing with Chariot is insanely hypocritical given what you buy for Steven Universe stats, correct?

Bro why am I catching strays here it's not my fault Mark's a base Steven victim

I was going to bring up Viltrum having a surface gravity of 1.25g + the density argument would actually equal having a similar or smaller diameter than Earth, but Chariot already said so before I could actually comment, so I just dropped a like and left, I wasn't "blindly agreeing." I don't find evidence like the population, rings or multiple moons especially compelling, given how little info we have about the specifics of the population situation and how the latter two are possible in Earth sized (And smaller) planets, as for the size calc, I'm feel like using the roche limit to find a planet's size is kind of circular, given the roche limit is based on a planet's parameters like its size, (Right after giving Earth's roche limit the article you linked in your calc says that Saturn's is ~117,000 kilometers) using Earth's roche limit to establish a minimum moon distance and calculate Viltrum being way larger than Earth would then mean its roche limit is far higher than Earth's and that its moons would actually fall apart at that distance and would have to be much further away than you assumed, hence why I feel assuming Viltrum is Earth-sized is the safest bet with the concrete info we do have about Viltrum having slightly stronger gravity than Earth and similar composition with the exception of a very dense core

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Bro why am I catching strays here it's not my fault Mark's a base Steven victim

Yes, you're definitely not proving your bias here. You definitely don't have a motive for any of this.

Crazy how all of this, even assuming what I said is truly as wrong and stupid as you guys are saying it is, is still infinitely more valid than trying to argue a light blast that did absolutely no damage to the Earth whatsoever and at best split some clouds is somehow a Solar System level attack, huh? You didn't even try to defend why you buy Steven at Solar System level to possibly Multi-Galaxy level while buying Invincible characters who are objectively portrayed as being much stronger than anyone in Steven Universe at Small Planet level.

 

[Chariot190]

I have a lot to say about this still, but a few things I need to address before responding in full.

1. We never even got into at all how the Planet dwarfs it's moons, which my calc

Yes most planets tend to dwarf their moons.

(and Death Battle's, which also explains how the Planet is bigger with the Roche limit idea but there was no way I was ever gonna bring that up without people shouting "EWWW DEATH BATTLE BAD!!!!" baselessly instead of actually discrediting their calculation, something I'm 100% positive you would do as well, and no, before anyone quotes this I do not think Omni-Man or anyone in the Invincible verse has a chance in hell against Bardock)

I do not care. About any of that.

and multiple others do too. Scaling it to it's moons in the background via using the minimum orbital distance and minimum moon size gets the Planet to over 30,000 km in size.

Yes, the moons in the background, will look smaller, because tehy're in the background.
Moons can also be tiny. Why are you assuming they're that size? Because of a roche limit? A roche limit you'd need to calculate first? That also isn't accepted, get your calc accepted first if you want to use it as evidence.

You never addressed that calc, which in all fairness you aren't expected to. I just thought it'd be necessary to point out.

I don't need to, it isn't accepted, and you'd need to calculate the roche limit first because it'd vary between planets, not use a placeholder for one.

Planet size calcs are acceptable to use unless the story explicitly shows the Planet being of average size.

Which is impossible here.

2. I don't care how many times you keep gaslighting me and trying to tell me that "Chill bro it's just an emoji bro", you were objectively coming across as condescending whether you like it or not.

I don't care. It's an emoji, it does not mean what you think it means. You are free to think it means that, but nobody should have to limit themselves because of it.

The more times I call you out for it you continue to be condescending.

I don't care. I could actually be condescending if it'd please you to show you an example, but I would prefer not to do so.

This plus all of the people who are mindlessly following you by spamming your replies with likes (some of the people who liked your comments have a history of being blatantly biased against Invincible and of trying to purposely get characters from Invincible to lose to other characters, FYI).

I don't care.
Also blatant false accusations of others.
Also accusing people of agendas.

Mayhaps people just don't agree with you?

And you still continue to double down instead of apologizing for coming across the way you did.

I don't care. I will apologize for what I do, not what you think was done.

You also get even worse here as you basically say multiple times "Yeah, that's the way it is, get over it!", which even if it was true, is not at all a respectable thing to say.

If it's true, it's true, and if it's true, I have no reason to sugarcoat it. I am not here to coddle you. I am not attacking you, I am attacking your arguments, and I'm doing so in a manner that's allowed. So again, I do not care.

Justifying it because "lol it's a debate thread" is honestly laughable too. Just apologize and be done with it, you were objectively being condescending and continue to get even worse.

I do not care. I am not apologizing for saying your argument isn't sufficient, that there is stuff wrong with your claims, that there's a lack of evidence, that it will take time to go over, and least of all an emoji. Stop derailing your own thread.

3. Again, Planets like One Piece are never ever stated at any point to be big Planets either, or even in WoG is One Piece's world stated to be bigger than Earth.

I do not care. Whataboutisms. This isn't Viltrum, I'm sure there's plenty of extra reasons why OP's planet calc got accepted that don't apply here, either way.

Yet we accept it being larger than Earth due to the properties it is shown to have,

None of which apply to Viltrum.

and Viltrum's population having a ring around it at minimum objectively puts it's population far larger than Earth.

No it doesn't. For all we know Viltrum is a super tiny planet that only has 1.25g because it's super dense and so the ring would need far less mass/corpses to formulate a nigh invisible ring in most shots.

If you stacked rows of 500 dead bodies on top of each other for every human that's ever lived, you would barely surpass the Earth's diameter in terms of the ring's circumference.

Which implicates Viltrum is actually quite small because it definitely can not be big due to the gravity and density, but it can be smaller.

It's not that hard to understand, just because we don't have an exact population number doesn't mean we can't justify it being much bigger than Earth.

You can't, at all, it's a nothing argument. It's extrapolation, that goes against the actual stated info we have.

4. I say "objectively" because it is indeed objectively how things work when I say that beforehand. You not agreeing does not mean I don't know what it means.

Lad, given I'm the person who said the shit, I'm pretty sure I have a say in what it meant.

5. I will concede on what your arguments regarding how density and gravity don't necessarily affect the Planet's size.

Except it does, it actively proves it can't be big. This is no longer up for debate.

However, the Roche limit idea certainly does, as an Earth-sized Planet cannot support rings for thousands of years which I'm sorry, is objectively true,

It very well can.

It objectively can, because they have.

It’s true that small planets face challenges in maintaining stable ring systems over long timescales, but it is not impossible. The stability of a ring system depends on a bunch of factors, including the planet's gravity, the distribution of ring material, the presence of shepherd moons, and external forces. Small planets have less gravity, so the material in their rings is more susceptible to being dispersed by radiation pressure from the Sun or Drag forces, such as solar wind or interplanetary particles. This is not the case with Viltrum, it has suffcient gravity, even moreso than Saturn. Shepherd moons stabilize ring systems by gravitationally confining the ring material. Without these, ring particles are more likely to spread out or escape over time. Viltrum has 3 moons that orbit it, needless to say, this is accounted for. Collisions between ring particles can cause some material to lose energy and spiral into the planet or be ejected into space, fortunately, the particles in question aren't big chunks of rock, but mere bodies. Gravitational interactions with nearby bodies such as larger planets or passing objects can destabilize the ring system, fortunately, this has no evidence to ever having happened.
The longevity of a ring system depends on its origin and stabilizing mechanisms, using the aforementioned, Chariklo’s rings appear stable on timescales of at least millions of years, yes, a tiny planet about 200km wide, has had a functional ring system for millions of years. Skimming docs and shit; simulations allegedely indicate that Chariklo’s rings may be stabilized by small shepherd moons. The dense and narrow structure of its two rings supports this idea, which, much like Viltrum, with its multiple moons, would help.
Haumea’s ring is believed to be stable over millions of years, too, apparently, though the reason for that comes fromits rapid rotation and the gravitational influence of its moons, allegedely, so not the case here, but it does show that it isn't as simple as you think.

So yes, while it’s true that ring systems around small planets are often temporary, that doesn't mean it's impossible. Chariklo’s rings lasting millions of years because of shepherd moons or Haumea’s rings rapid spin and rotational oblateness, helping to stabilize the ring material.

But in the end, it doesn't matter, at all, Viltrum has decent gravity, it has sheperd moons, and there's seemingly no external forces we're aware of that would compromise the rings. which is to say, again, this whole line of argumentation is bunk. It doesn't apply, Viltrum, ironically, has the means to have a full functioning ring system due to its gravity, roche limit, sheperd moons and more.

and let alone of dead bodies. Earth-sized Planets that are perfect spheres cannot have rings in the way Viltrum does.

Yes they can, it's harder, but it is not impossible. Especially given how roche limit even works.
Rings form from debris, which can come from various things. the problems include, tidal disruption, where a moon or asteroid ventures inside the planet’s Roche limit and is torn apart. Collisions, in where two moons or other bodies collide, producing debris.And capturing dust and other particles into orbit.
An earth-like planet could hypothetically hold debris if it had a significant source of debris, so the bodies here in this case, and the material remained within the planet's Roche limit. Which they do, evidently, not like it matter because the corpses wouldn't be torn apart by tidal forces anyway.

Which is to say. You're now arguing that the planet must be big because of something that might be the case but isn't actually strictly impossible. While I am arguing that it can't be big because of something that is objectively impossible because that's how gravity works. Unless you're going to start arguing Viltrum is less dense thn water or gas, it can never go past a certain limit, especially because the only actual info we have is gravity and density.

So, again, do not waste my time here. Simply post a scan saying it's super huge, or go fight with physics because the Planet caps at like 7-8k km in radius.
Unless we just decide to not use the gravity? But why in the world would we ignore the single thing actually stated, all because of a unlikely ring system that isn't actually impossible that is artificial let alone even natural occuring. I will gather some mods to evaluate this and be done with it.

 

[Chariot190]

Yes, you're definitely not proving your bias here. You definitely don't have a motive for any of this.

Crazy how all of this, even assuming what I said is truly as wrong and stupid as you guys are saying it is,

Nobody, not ONCE even uttered that word in this thread. Except you.

is still infinitely more valid than trying to argue a light blast that did absolutely no damage to the Earth whatsoever and at best split some clouds is somehow a Solar System level attack, huh?

That IS kinda weird ngl. But not relevant.

You didn't even try to defend why you buy Steven at Solar System level to possibly Multi-Galaxy level while buying Invincible characters who are objectively portrayed as being much stronger than anyone in Steven Universe at Small Planet level.

Nobody gives a damn about SU, this is a Invincible thread

This is about Viltrum. It can not exceed a certain limit, it's gravity+density doesn't allow it. End of.

 

[Soupywolf5]

Yes, you're definitely not proving your bias here. You definitely don't have a motive for any of this.

Crazy how all of this, even assuming what I said is truly as wrong and stupid as you guys are saying it is, is still infinitely more valid than trying to argue a light blast that did absolutely no damage to the Earth whatsoever and at best split some clouds is somehow a Solar System level attack, huh? You didn't even try to defend why you buy Steven at Solar System level to possibly Multi-Galaxy level while buying Invincible characters who are objectively portrayed as being much stronger than anyone in Steven Universe at Small Planet level.

Aw shucks I've been exposed, it's over bros

I'm not trying to defend it because it doesn't matter, my opinion on the scaling of a completely different series (Which isn't even accepted on this wiki and also is hella outdated, I'm just lazy and never updated my profiles) has no relevance to this thread and I don't see why it would, nothing you said actually addressed what I said about Viltrum's properties not inherently requiring Viltrum to be huge nor the circular reasoning of using a Roche limit to calculate the size of a planet that would factor into its Roche limit

 

[Da3ggman]

@Soupywolf5 You do realize you blindly agreeing with Chariot is insanely hypocritical given what you buy for Steven Universe stats, correct?

Not cool man, you don’t gotta be dragging him through the mud for a like on a comment. Not only is it a bit rude, but it also muddles the thread from its intended purpose. Its probably for the best to just drop it.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Not cool man, you don’t gotta be dragging him through the mud for a like on a comment. Not only is it a bit rude, but it also muddles the thread from its intended purpose. Its probably for the best to just drop it.

Oh, but Chariot acting like the smartest person in the world, repeatedly gaslighting me and pretending his behavior does not make him come across as a condescending smart-@$$ while continuing to be rude instead of just apologizing from the get-go is totally nice and the epitome of utmost respect? While also likely about to reply to this too doing the same thing while being even ruder and continuing to not back down?

And yeah, I did that because I'm reasonably frustrated at how many people have since from the beginning have been sucking off this guy. Looking through his profile, everyone on this wiki does. I was outnumbered from the start, even before he ever even tried to explain how anything I said was wrong, by a bunch of people who could not at all defend the same stance without him playing guardian angel for them nor would ever try if I called them out. Soupywolf pissed me off the most because what he buys for Steven Universe is far more "debunkable" than anything I said here, while also clearly having a vendetta against Invincible from everything I've saw him say about the verse everytime I've seen him mention it.

I'd be willing to completely concede and drop everything if I wasn't bombarded with a guy who from the very start of this thread went on and on about how everything I said was wrong and how easy it is to refute but didn't even try because he apparently "didn't have the time" (despite the fact he apparently did have the time to do exactly that in even longer "walls of text" than what I sent), and did not have an army of sheep who again, could never actually defend their own stances on their own, which is why they hide behind keyboard warriors like Chariot who fight all their battles.

Words cannot describe how frustrated I am right now, honestly. It's only gonna get worse, so I'd want this thread to be locked for now. Clearly nothing that isn't a flat out direct statement counts as evidence anymore according to all of you.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Not cool man, you don’t gotta be dragging him through the mud for a like on a comment. Not only is it a bit rude, but it also muddles the thread from its intended purpose. Its probably for the best to just drop it.

FYI, I actually agree with Soupywolf's stance on Steven Universe scaling, weirdly enough. I just think that the arguments for it have equally as many flaws as what this CRT allegedly does.

 

[Soupywolf5]

Oh, but Chariot acting like the smartest person in the world, repeatedly gaslighting me and pretending his behavior does not make him come across as a condescending smart-@$$ while continuing to be rude instead of just apologizing from the get-go is totally nice and the epitome of utmost respect? While also likely about to reply to this too doing the same thing while being even ruder and continuing to not back down?

And yeah, I did that because I'm reasonably frustrated at how many people have since from the beginning have been sucking off this guy. Looking through his profile, everyone on this wiki does. I was outnumbered from the start, even before he ever even tried to explain how anything I said was wrong, by a bunch of people who could not at all defend the same stance without him playing guardian angel for them nor would ever try if I called them out. Soupywolf pissed me off the most because what he buys for Steven Universe is far more "debunkable" than anything I said here, while also clearly having a vendetta against Invincible from everything I've saw him say about the verse everytime I've seen him mention it.

I'd be willing to completely concede and drop everything if I wasn't bombarded with a guy who from the very start of this thread went on and on about how everything I said was wrong and how easy it is to refute but didn't even try because he apparently "didn't have the time" (despite the fact he apparently did have the time to do exactly that in even longer "walls of text" than what I sent), and did not have an army of sheep who again, could never actually defend their own stances on their own, which is why they hide behind keyboard warriors like Chariot who fight all their battles.

Words cannot describe how frustrated I am right now, honestly. It's only gonna get worse, so I'd want this thread to be locked for now. Clearly nothing that isn't a flat out direct statement counts as evidence anymore according to all of you.

Brother I've never talked about this series before what do you mean? I don't have a "vendetta" against Invincible, I just personally disagree with the methodology you're using to get Viltrum's size, my stance on SU has nothing to do with that

 

[Chariot190]

Oh, but Chariot acting like the smartest person in the world, repeatedly gaslighting me and pretending his behavior does not make him come across as a condescending smart-@$$ while continuing to be rude instead of just apologizing from the get-go is totally nice and the epitome of utmost respect?

I mean, you can think what you want. The only person in this thread that has now actively insulted (yes, insulted, that counts, I know from experience, apparently calling people a smartass is report worthy . Not that I agree so you don't need to worry about that, but for future reference so someone else doesn't get on your ass I'd refrain from that).

And nobody said I'm nice, I'm not the nicest person, I ain't what youre making me out to be either, but whatever, more blunt and neutral if anything.

While also likely about to reply to this too doing the same thing while being even ruder and continuing to not back down?

Of course. I don't quite appreciate the slander due to misintepretation, especially when you've been informed what the funny lil rock boy is meant to convey. The rest was just never actually said. Nobody is calling you stupid dude.

And yeah, I did that because I'm reasonably frustrated at how many people have since from the beginning have been sucking off this guy.

Ok now that's report worthy. I don't wanna be that dude but you need to stop attacking actual people and moreso their arguments or yap.

Looking through his profile, everyone on this wiki does. I was outnumbered from the start, even before he ever even tried to explain how anything I said was wrong, by a bunch of people who could not at all defend the same stance without him playing guardian angel for them nor would ever try if I called them out.

You realize there's a bunch of people on wiki who ******* hate me and want me crucified right? Some people tend to agree, some do not. What of it?

Of course they don't have to, burden of proof is on you, your CRT. Nobody has to debate you if they don't want to, and people can agree with whoever they think has sufficient claims.

Soupywolf pissed me off the most because what he buys for Steven Universe is far more "debunkable" than anything I said here,

Maybe. That doesn't matter though, two wrongs don't make a right. Lil bro didn't even say anything anyway.

while also clearly having a vendetta against Invincible from everything I've saw him say about the verse everytime I've seen him mention it.

Idk why, Invincible is cool, but whether or not he does or doesn't, doesn't matter.

I'd be willing to completely concede and drop everything if I wasn't bombarded with a guy who from the very start of this thread went on and on about how everything I said was wrong and how easy it is to refute

That's just stonewalling if you concede but refuse to. And I didn't say everything, I said a lot was wrong, which, there was a lot wrong, I also went on to elaborate wrong due to wiki standards, not wrong in you thinking said things. Which, is in fact true, this type of logical conjecture isn't usable for us.
And yes, easy to refute. Simply pointing out basic physics in how gravity caps it at a certain threshold, is a simple refute.

but didn't even try because he apparently "didn't have the time"

Well no, I was going to cover it all, it was just gonna take a bit. I skipped to the end conclusion though in that density/gravity makes this proposal impossible to save time as you kinda went off before I could go through the comic and gather stuff.

(despite the fact he apparently did have the time to do exactly that in even longer "walls of text" than what I sent),

I am actively delaying two other threads to appease you. And the original reply would have went over everything in depth but, ya know.

and did not have an army of sheep who again,

Why are you throwing people who have done nothing to you under the bus?

could never actually defend their own stances on their own,

A few could, a few know even more thn I do.

which is why they hide behind keyboard warriors like Chariot who fight all their battles.

Or maybe they just agree with me, disagree with you, and call it a day. Not everybody has to argue with you.

Words cannot describe how frustrated I am right now, honestly. It's only gonna get worse, so I'd want this thread to be locked for now. Clearly nothing that isn't a flat out direct statement counts as evidence anymore according to all of you.

Yes not for this. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. This doesn't matter anyhow, as some of the few statements we do get, cap it.

Regardless, it looks like we're done here. Grab a statement, or do not, I'm gonna go like, idk, pixel scale fish apparently.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

I mean, you can think what you want. The only person in this thread that has now actively insulted (yes, insulted, that counts, I know from experience, apparently calling people a smartass is report worthy . Not that I agree so you don't need to worry about that, but for future reference so someone else doesn't get on your ass I'd refrain from that).

And nobody said I'm nice, I'm not the nicest person, I ain't what youre making me out to be either, but whatever, more blunt and neutral if anything.

Of course. I don't quite appreciate the slander due to misintepretation, especially when you've been informed what the funny lil rock boy is meant to convey. The rest was just never actually said. Nobody is calling you stupid dude.

Ok now that's report worthy. I don't wanna be that dude but you need to stop attacking actual people and moreso their arguments or yap.

You realize there's a bunch of people on wiki who ******* hate me and want me crucified right? Some people tend to agree, some do not. What of it?

Of course they don't have to, burden of proof is on you, your CRT. Nobody has to debate you if they don't want to, and people can agree with whoever they think has sufficient claims.

Maybe. That doesn't matter though, two wrongs don't make a right. Lil bro didn't even say anything anyway.

Idk why, Invincible is cool, but whether or not he does or doesn't, doesn't matter.

That's just stonewalling if you concede but refuse to. And I didn't say everything, I said a lot was wrong, which, there was a lot wrong, I also went on to elaborate wrong due to wiki standards, not wrong in you thinking said things. Which, is in fact true, this type of logical conjecture isn't usable for us.
And yes, easy to refute. Simply pointing out basic physics in how gravity caps it at a certain threshold, is a simple refute.

Well no, I was going to cover it all, it was just gonna take a bit. I skipped to the end conclusion though in that density/gravity makes this proposal impossible to save time as you kinda went off before I could go through the comic and gather stuff.

I am actively delaying two other threads to appease you. And the original reply would have went over everything in depth but, ya know.

Why are you throwing people who have done nothing to you under the bus?

A few could, a few know even more thn I do.

Or maybe they just agree with me, disagree with you, and call it a day. Not everybody has to argue with you.

Yes not for this. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. This doesn't matter anyhow, as some of the few statements we do get, cap it.

Regardless, it looks like we're done here. Grab a statement, or do not, I'm gonna go like, idk, pixel scale fish apparently.

Yeah, I objectively (I'm obsessed with this word now for some reason) went overboard by doing that, and saying "sucking off" was especially more immature, but calling me dumb, which you are doing and the more you say you aren't the more you continue to gaslight me, while pretending everything I said is wrong by default because "statement or ur wrong" and continuing to pretend me explaining why I thought the Planet to be bigger was just me saying it baselessly for no reason, you are absolutely being a smartass and when you continue reply like this, you are proving my point. You could have just said you were sorry for coming across that way from the get-go and I would have been cool with it.

You didn't even have to keep sticking with the whole "muh statement and everything else ur saying is wrong because der's no statement" thing, the stuff you said about smaller Planets having had rings observed was genuinely convincing and a good argument. I did not know that was even true until you said it. You could have just actually responded to my justifications for the Planet being bigger in the first place with stuff like that and I wouldn't have had any problem with it. In fact, there are many things here I actively think are good counter-arguments to what I said. But the fact that you continued to disingenuously pretend that all of them were just "gut feeling" even when I explained to you how they weren't and that I had actual reasons for believing it, even if said reasons don't have exact numbers to them, that is why I got frustrated. I'll be honest with you, I anger very easily and it's a very personal problem of mine that has affected me personally countless times. I don't wanna get into it any more than that but I thought it was worth saying.

I could have also have been more patient with you, as your "more detailed" reply would have likely have contained the above arguments that I believe are genuinely good counters and would have done so in detail. I feel especially more like a jerk now knowing you took time out of your own shchedule to continue entertaining this silly argument.

I owe both you, Soupywolf, and all of the other people here an apology for everything here as of late. But in any case, I think my recent outburst alone is enough reason to lock this thread at the very least. If I need to be given a warning or even a temp ban for this so be it.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Okay, this is an absolute shitstorm, unsurprising since its VSBW. Lets go through your original arguments.

99.9% of Viltrum's population formed a ring around the entire Planet. The death toll per year was stated to have claimed "countless lives", each individual line of dead bodies being visible next to the Planet and as a black line when zoomed out in space. Before the Scourge Virus happened, Viltrumites spent hundreds of years straight restlessly killingeach other until only the strongest of them survived. Over 1.2 million people die per year as a result of military conflict, and assuming a timeframe of around 300 years, this puts 0.1% of Viltrum's population at a minimum of 142,256,925,000 Viltrumites, over 17 times Earth's current population as of 2025, and over 14 times Earth's estimated "carrying capacity". It's population at 100% was then 142,256,925,000,000 Viltrumites, 99.9% of those making up Viltrum's rings. Using 1.9 square meters, the average surface area of a human male, the combined surface area of Viltrum's entire Viltrumite population makes up 270288160 square kilometers, already more than half of Earth's entire surface area. The combined surface area of all humans on Earth as of 2025, using the population of 8,198,803,610 people according to this site, would be roughly 15577.726859 square kilometers using the same 1.9 square meter value. Obviously, if Viltrum was really only the size of Earth, stable living conditions where it's population is well over 14,000 times the Planet's carrying capacity would be virtually non-existent, especially when the population is filled with beings who can virtually kill each other accidentally via physical contact. Yet even in the flashbacks of Viltrum's actual society, there are no issues with Viltrumites being able to move around in wide open space to mimic a mistakenly utopian society.

This are a lot of assumptions here. You are assuming the timeframe for the war, you are assuming the minimum population, and you are using assuming Viltrum acts anything like Earth when even in our own solar systems Earth is an oddity. Keep in mind that in the comics the Viltrumites integrated into Earth population without much problem I doubt they could do that with 142 billion people (That is 142x the population of China- the most populated country on earth).

Viltrum canonically has considerably greater gravity than Earth and even Neptune, being 1.25x Earth's specifically. By default, larger objects, unless they have less density, by definition possess greater gravity according to Newton's Universal law of Gravitation, and vice versa. Viltrum is clearly not composed entirely of icy gas nor is noticeably any less dense than Earth, therefore in order for it to have greater gravity while having comparable density to Earth, it would objectively need to possess considerably greater volume for it's mass to be spread out across and thus also heavier, due to gravity and mass being directly proportional.

How much greater exactly? Can you give a scan. I do agree that Viltrum is atleast as dense as Earth.

For Viltrum to have supported it's rings of corpses for several thousand to millions of years, it would need to have a considerably greater Roche limit than Earth, and thus a much greater radius for objects caught in it's gravitational pull to remain in consistent orbit sustained only by it's gravity. Viltrum's gravity is greater than any's in Earth's solar system with the exception of Jupiter, and all Planets in the Solar System which are bigger than Earth possess rings. Viltrum's gravity being greater than Saturn and even Neptune, while still having greater density than both of them would for the same reasons above objectively attribute it comparably larger size to Earth.

Agree no complaints.

Space Racer is also on the side of the Coalition of Planets, and Thragg likely doesn't even know of his effort in destroying Viltrum as he directly attributes it's destruction to Mark, Nolan, and Thaedus without any mention of Space Racer's gun playing a role. Space Racer would not shoot at Earth's core intentionally to help Thragg and Viltrum destroy the Earth, nor would he have any reason to that benefits him. Thragg is also very prideful of himself and Viltrumites as a race, which is the entire motivation for why he leads the Viltrumites as a Planet conquering race and later leads an army of half-Viltrumite children to kill those who betrayed him, specifically to prove his superiority over all other races and beings in the Universe. Space Racer's gun being used to destabilize Earth's core would be out of character for both Space Racer and Thragg, which assumes Thragg even knows about Space Racer's effort in destroying Viltrum.

If a man uses dynamite to blow up a wall and I say that the wall got destroyed because he punched it really hard, it doesn't mean that dynamite wasn't used. It just means I had no info about the dynamite. Also Thragg is negotating with Mark and Nolan, no reason he wouldn't pull out a lie to put himself in a position of power.

Allen's homeworld, Unopa, was stated by Allen himself to have been completely destroyed by Viltrumwith there being no Planet to go back to at all. This forced the Unopan species to become nomadic and set up deep space breeding colonies, where Allen was born. If Unopa's civilization or surface was all that destroyed, the Unopan species could have very easily rebuilt their society over time considering the fact there were survivors and simply set up their breeding colonies there. We've seen other Planets in Invincible, specifically Thraxa, do exactly this when Viltrumites invaded the Planet and destroyed their cities and left a large portion of their population dead, and they even have specific hiding spots for invasions of Viltrumites. We also never see the Unopa homeworld in Invincible at any time whatsoever outside of flashbacks, despite us going back to Thraxa multiple times in Invincible despite how many times it's civilization was ravaged by Viltrum.

Eh- This is vague. We are not shown how the Viltrums "destroyed" the planet, and we have no knowledge of the Unopan technological capabilities at the time.

The TV series, which is written and co-directed by Robert Kirkman who also wrote the comic series, has Allen flat out saying that Unopa was blown up.

Okay, then how big is Unopa? Is it as big as Earth? We don't know. Also the TV Show and Comics have been split.

WoG has backed up Viltrumites being able to "blow up planets" as a consistent display of their power level. Kirkman at no point has any objection to claims of Viltrumites being able to blow up Planets, that in fact being his very intention for Viltrumites' consistent power level:

Your first WOG is the man talking about the themes of the story, not shattering planets. The second doesn't specify the size of the planet.

In short, Viltrum as a Planet must objectively be much different from a standard Planet, as Viltrum has never once been implied to have required outside help, usage of technology, or be risking their lives destroying ordinary Planets with Viltrum's destruction being the only instance of this occuring. The only explanation that makes sense is that Viltrum's core is far denser, and therefore much more durable and heavier than the cores of ordinary Planets, something which is consistently backed up by Viltrum visibly having far greater gravity than Earth just by virtue of it being able to support a ring of dead bodies which make up 99.9% of their population, having multiple more moons than Earth in it's orbit, and by canonically being stated to have 1.25x Earth's gravity.

Yeah, but didn't Space Racer weaken the core? So why would it matter?

Put me down as neutral. I will wait for better args.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Yeah, I objectively (I'm obsessed with this word now for some reason) went overboard by doing that, and saying "sucking off" was especially more immature, but calling me dumb, which you are doing and the more you say you aren't the more you continue to gaslight me, while pretending everything I said is wrong by default because "statement or ur wrong" and continuing to pretend me explaining why I thought the Planet to be bigger was just me saying it baselessly for no reason, you are absolutely being a smartass and when you continue reply like this, you are proving my point. You could have just said you were sorry for coming across that way from the get-go and I would have been cool with it.

You didn't even have to keep sticking with the whole "muh statement and everything else ur saying is wrong because der's no statement" thing, the stuff you said about smaller Planets having had rings observed was genuinely convincing and a good argument. I did not know that was even true until you said it. You could have just actually responded to my justifications for the Planet being bigger in the first place with stuff like that and I wouldn't have had any problem with it. In fact, there are many things here I actively think are good counter-arguments to what I said. But the fact that you continued to disingenuously pretend that all of them were just "gut feeling" even when I explained to you how they weren't and that I had actual reasons for believing it, even if said reasons don't have exact numbers to them, that is why I got frustrated. I'll be honest with you, I anger very easily and it's a very personal problem of mine that has affected me personally countless times. I don't wanna get into it any more than that but I thought it was worth saying.

I could have also have been more patient with you, as your "more detailed" reply would have likely have contained the above arguments that I believe are genuinely good counters and would have done so in detail. I feel especially more like a jerk now knowing you took time out of your own shchedule to continue entertaining this silly argument.

I owe both you, Soupywolf, and all of the other people here an apology for everything here as of late. But in any case, I think my recent outburst alone is enough reason to lock this thread at the very least. If I need to be given a warning or even a temp ban for this so be it.

Its people getting angry over a VS Thread - nothing unusual for this site. Now, that we all have cooler heads, let's return to the original arg.

 

[Alexander]

i was expecting a upgrade from the tv series universe for Omni man mentioning the feat of stopping a asteroid the size of texas

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

i was expecting a upgrade from the tv series universe for Omni man mentioning the feat of stopping a asteroid the size of texas

Already Calced

 

[Alexander]

Already Calced

then why don't we use it?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

then why don't we use it?

TV Show only.

 

[Alexander]

TV Show only.

ok, but then why is not listed in the TV?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

ok, but then why is not listed in the TV?

It is look at:

• Omni-Man diverts and asteroid the size of Texas - 3.69317347390277 * 10^21 Kg (Class Z)

 

[Alexander]

It is look at:

• Omni-Man diverts and asteroid the size of Texas - 3.69317347390277 * 10^21 Kg (Class Z)

i was reffering to the KE

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

i was reffering to the KE

It was rejected for some reason

 

[Alexander]

It was rejected for some reason

some reason...

 

[KingTempest]

They don't know "how he stopped it"