Isaac (Golden Sun) Speed

[Kalaam]

On his page it is stated that Isaac is FTL+, but nowhere can I see any reason as to why. All I found was someone calculating the Iris summon's speed, but I fail to see how it would relate to isaac's own speed.

 

[MrHazama]

I think he's at Massively FTL+, not FTL+

Plus from what I've gathered and remember, the Djinn boosts the wielders power, including speed

 

[MrHazama]

 

[XitSign]

There are actually other FTL feats and calcs for support...but being a niche verse means getting attention to get them done is a chore...

But yeah, we need to link the scans about the Djinn giving the same power to the users they fuse with, because it will clear a lot of the summon scaling up.

I keep saying I'll do it but my 'I'll do it' list keeps getting bigger...

 

[Kalaam]

I am aware djinn boosts stats (having all of them gives like 100 speed or something) and then there is class multiplier on top. But I could never find any source explaining why that makes him massively FTL. (That'd be so much easier if it was possible to dodge spells/summons in the game wouldn't it ? xD)

 

[XitSign]

Like I said, there's stuff in-game about the nature of the Djinn, their relationship to the summons, and how they give their power to the Adepts they fuse to. We need to get the scans and put them on the profiles because this seems to be the main thing that people keep questioning.

I also still think we should have a no-Djinn/pre-Djinn key for adepts, but we'd need to work out a standard for that.

This has been discussed being fixed, but it's going to take an afternoon of actually doing it and not just saying 'we should do that'

...again, kinda my bad.

 

[Kalaam]

I see.
I hope this tracks because right now this feels like a crutch to scale that much from the djinn alone. Like sure they give a boost and can be used to summon creatures/spirits but it exhausts them and it's only for a few seconds. This shouldn't mean that the character would constantly have the same stats as the summons they have access to. It's a contradiction.

 

[XitSign]

I see.
I hope this tracks because right now this feels like a crutch to scale that much from the djinn alone. Like sure they give a boost and can be used to summon creatures/spirits but it exhausts them and it's only for a few seconds. This shouldn't mean that the character would constantly have the same stats as the summons they have access to. It's a contradiction.

...It isn't though?

For characters to even remotely compete with one another, they will need to have the same statistics or, if they're VERY close to a tier barrier in actual numbers they might be a tier bellow or above. This is basic powerscaling.

Many tiers even being a fraction of the power of who you're scaling to is still the same tier. Tiers are massive, and the ability to be even "comparable" as the wiki puts it means you're almost always going to still be the same tier as who you're comparing to.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Psynergy is a UES that amps power as well as speed. Iris would scale to Isaac and crew's attack speed via Psynergy. As would it scale to Djinn given Iris is just equal to the combined might of 13 Djinn. Isaac and crew also only use a small fraction of their power to amplify the power and speed of Iris, so they logically should upscale from her in power and combat speed. Especially since Doom Dragon and Dullahan can keep up in combat with 8 Adepts with 72 Djinn combined at their disposal.

Iris also demonstrates an attack speed feat shortly after the flight speed feat using Psynergy no less. So I see no issue with Massively FTL+ combat speed for the crew and other summons also consistently demonstrate other Massively FTL+ slight speed and attack speed with some that arguably out do Iris'.

 

[Kalaam]

That seems a bit weird. I don't deny that the monsters he scales up to are extremely powerful (and with strategy he can technically win duels with them) but I fail to see how he'd be godlike in term of speed. It is as if having the materia to summon bahamut equipped makes you as fast as it is.

 

[XitSign]

Materia and summons related to it aren't at all related to this situation. It's a different verse, different creators, with different rules.

'Godlike' is a completely subjective term. Isaac and the crew get MFTL+ because it's been calced and for reasons that have been explained in this thread and the last time you posted in one of the GS threads, mind you summons scale in this verse.

We need more scans, that's about it.

 

[MrHazama]

Is there a calc that placed Iris at MFTL+?

 

[Kalaam]

Is there a calc that placed Iris at MFTL+?

Yeah there is, I remember seeing it.

Materia and summons related to it aren't at all related to this situation. It's a different verse, different creators, with different rules.

'Godlike' is a completely subjective term. Isaac and the crew get MFTL+ because it's been calced and for reasons that have been explained in this thread and the last time you posted in one of the GS threads, mind you summons scale in this verse.

We need more scans, that's about it.

I actually forgot I had posted here long ago. But still,
What do you mean by "scans" actually ?
And I'm sorry but I still can't follow that scaling logic, it just looks very flimsy.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Psynergy is a UES that amps power as well as speed. Iris would scale to Isaac and crew's attack speed via Psynergy. As would it scale to Djinn given Iris is just equal to the combined might of 13 Djinn. Isaac and crew also only use a small fraction of their power to amplify the power and speed of Iris, so they logically should upscale from her in power and combat speed. Especially since Doom Dragon and Dullahan can keep up in combat with 8 Adepts with 72 Djinn combined at their disposal.

Iris also demonstrates an attack speed feat shortly after he flight speed feat using Psynergy no less. So I see no issue with Massively FTL+ combat speed for the crew and other summons also consistently demonstrate other Massively FTL+ slight speed and attack speed with some that arguably out do Iris'.

Isaac and crew also only use a small fraction of their power to amplify the power and speed of Iris

Scan? And how does it being UES mean everyone should scale to it?

 

[Kalaam]

Also what does UES stands for ?

 

[MrHazama]

Universal Energy System

 

[XitSign]

Scans are a short hand for direct evidence you can link, which I agree we need on the profiles. They're too bare.

And it scales not because it's nessisary a UES, but the nature of Djinn is to give the power to the beings they fuse with, boosting them each time, which in this case is the adepts. As well as the fact that the Djinn Summons would have reason to scale to some of the final foes the gang have to fight directly.

But the problem is just that, the profiles are barren of enough scans, we need to dedicate time to get game screenshots and CRT the justifications. Browsing older CRTs might find most of them, since I remember them being used for arguments for where we are now, but if I'm honest I'd like to just boot up an emulator and screen shot each one

But that's me adding to my 'I'll do it later' list of projects...

 

[MrHazama]

Yeah there is, I remember seeing it.

Do you have the link?

 

[XitSign]

Link to feat

Basically typical: "nearest star" calc. Dark Dawn's animation shows how far the attack flies and Iris doing her thing, and it's calced as if she's as close as possible.

 

[Kalaam]

Okay sure it makes you scale to stuff like Doom Dragon. I can accept that, but why iris. You never fight her, even a lot of basic ennemies can survive her attack, does that mean most Mars lighthouse ennemies are MFTL+ too ?

 

[XitSign]

Okay sure it makes you scale to stuff like Doom Dragon. I can accept that, but why iris. You never fight her, even a lot of basic ennemies can survive her attack, does that mean most Mars lighthouse ennemies are MFTL+ too ?

I mean there's more evidence than just that, but simply: probably.

If you can keep up with a character who should have a stat, you at least need to be able to ballpark it.

Now is there a certain amount of 'mook scaling'? Maybe, its endgame mooks, the wiki's rules about mooks from a gameplay mechanic standpoint can be a hot debate. Should they scale? Should they not scale? Kinda doesn't matter since they don't have profiles and aren't significant for scaling relationships. Major important bosses tend to matter far more when we scale.

 

[Kalaam]

This seems pretty inconsistent to be honest. Could you link to the other evidences ?

 

[XitSign]

Genuinely how is it inconsistent? You just keep saying scaling to other characters is bad and you're not really explaining why.

And I do not have them. Several times I've said: "We need to make a project of gathering the scans". This is something we need to do.

 

[Kalaam]

Well if bosses scale to summons (meaning characters would either be unable to defeat them without the summon, or are as powerful as the summons rendering said summons redundant) normal ennemies should too.
And saying there is additional evidences and then that you need to find them is... well not very scientific.

 

[XitSign]

Well if bosses scale to summons

They should, they keep up with those levels of power in battle. Dullahan even uses Summons on the cast members.

(meaning characters would either be unable to defeat them without the summon, or are as powerful as the summons rendering said summons redundant)

Or that's how scaling works. If you are weaker than your opponent, but you can keep up, you scale. If you can deal damage, tank damage, and not be blitzed, you scale. Having more powerful abilities that can give you an edge isn't an inconsistency in scaling.

normal ennemies should too.

Maybe. Mook rules vary from verse to verse, with some verses treating mooks as if they don't scale, while others do. Normally because of lore making mooks out to be 0 threat in verses where we decided they don't scale. However this is both case-by-case and also contested from time to time.
Maybe Golden Sun mooks should scale? I don't know, I think I lean towards 'yes' because I think there is evidence of NPCs treating them as genuine threats. But that's technically not important for the main cast's pages.

And saying there is additional evidences and then that you need to find them is... well not very scientific.

I'm sorry. I'm at work on a mobile phone. I've mentioned a few times I've swamped myself with other projects too.
I don't have the scans on hand, and I'm not dropping everything to find every scan for Djinn, for summons, for attack speeds, for Meteor's calc, for the nature of Psynergy abilities that are useful for scaling.
I'd like to. I know it needs done. But I can't right now, sorry that isn't 'scientific'

The fact we don't have a scan or explination blog, or more scans on the profiles is a problem. But I'm not in a great position to fix it either. These are still technically volunteer projects, and I have other ones I'm doing too. Either someone else does it or it needs to wait until I have the time to right this...sorry.

 

[Kalaam]

I'd be glad to help and look up stuff, just tell me what you need. Or how you calculate stuff.
Once you have time to write it down of course

 

[MrHazama]

I personally want to see other feats from characters from earlier parts of the game before the ending of GS1

Plus same for earlier scaling for GS2 unless even Felix and his crew are on par with Isaac and his crew

 

[Kalaam]

Well I calculated speed based on the Indiana Jone's cutscene. Assuming each game tile is 5ft that's about 18 m/s. At that point Isaac has around 100 Agility.
Scaled that up to the maximum theorically possible stat wise (a bit over 1100 as the Master class, if going over the 999 limit) plus item multiplier (Zol Ring, 1.8) and a speed buff from a djinn to double it...
When buffed I found out a speed of Mach 2. Mach 1 unbuffed.

I'll share maths later but that's the result of my own research.

 

[XitSign]

I personally want to see other feats from characters from earlier parts of the game before the ending of GS1

Plus same for earlier scaling for GS2 unless even Felix and his crew are on par with Isaac and his crew

Like I've mentioned, I do want keys for either early game vs late game, with or without Djinn, something.

But that might need to be it's own CRT.

 

[MrHazama]

Like I've mentioned, I do want keys for either early game vs late game, with or without Djinn, something.

But that might need to be it's own CRT.

Understandable

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

XitSign linked the blog to my calc that had a link on the profiles, and I don't need to explain the AP scaling since again. Isaac only uses a little bit of Psynergy to amplify Iris to do the Supernova. Also, given inverse square law, most enemies wouldn't scale to the attack itself but just Isaac in crew due to having much more potent Psynergy than Iris though boss fights that are canonically tough fights for Isaac would scale. Also, Isaac also technically gets stronger, faster, and tougher via leveling up, which amping Iris to do the Tier 4 and Massively FTL+.

Also, another note is immediately after the attack, the Djinn literally travel back to the location of the party. And I heard Dark Dawn has some feats of summons traveling at Intergalactic distances. Also, someone used Final Fantasy as a whataboutism, but actually, this is a case where it is the same concept. A lot of Final Fantasy summons were option or mandatory bosses the party defeated before gaining the ability to summon them, and in Ifrit's case, he mentions something about "Getting stronger by joining the party" which hints two things. Ifrit who has his own High 6-A feats also gets stronger normally, and the FF cast using magic to amp summons such as him is canon. Which also means Ifrit could be much higher than his original High 6-A feat via amps from the party with the party also being above even that given it's their amps that buff the summons. Golden Sun uses Psynergy to amps summons in the same vein.

Also, I believe I had some talks with Xit and other users who helped work on the Golden Sun pages, and there were plans to elaborate on what Psynergy is and that it's been known to be a UES for both magical and physical attacks.

 

[MrHazama]

Also, someone used Final Fantasy as a whataboutism

Ironically, when I saw Iris used a supernova, I was like "Damn, Golden Sun went full on FF7 here"

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Like I've mentioned, I do want keys for either early game vs late game, with or without Djinn, something.

But that might need to be it's own CRT.

I'll send you stuff I have for Psynergy

The elemental stars contain the "purest essence" of each element
All things are made up of the elements. Alchemy exists because of the elemental stars. All reality is formed from the elements, and without the alchemy and the elements, the world will decay and vanish, implying its a fundamental part of the world.
Dark Psynergy is capable of taking one's mind, and turning someone into a creature of darkness, incapable of living in the world of light, changing one's whole system irreparably.
An Adept's powers can't simply be learnt or copied

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