Izuku Midoriya vs Naruto Uzumaki [0-8-0]

[MochOath]

Overall I think Naruto has more wincons and would take this fight

counted

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Alright so, assuming the OP is updated, while Naruto takes a hefty advantage in the Durability department and a noticeable gap in AP, Deku still has the far better speed outside of one specific technique. Not only that, but he also has the waaaay better LS between the both of them. Could Deku possibly win through restraining with black whip?

No because Substitution Jutsu completely negates this kind of tactic as shown by Pain vs Jiraiya where Jiraiya completely wraps his sage jutsu enhanced hair around one of the Pain's and tries to impale him like a pin cushion only for it to be Substitution Jutsu'd out of.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

No because Substitution Jutsu completely negates this kind of tactic as shown by Pain vs Jiraiya where Jiraiya completely wraps his sage jutsu enhanced hair around one of the Pain's and tries to impale him like a pin cushion only for it to be Substitution Jutsu'd out of.

Easy answer to that.... I forgot about it.

So unless Deku is willing to snap Naruto's neck with his superior LS, I guess Naruto wins by being too tough for the speed difference to mean anything, while having the AP to also hurt Deku severely with his stronger attacks.

 

[Foriaa]

Naruto fra for now.

 

[MochOath]

Naruto fra for now.

cyounted

 

[MochOath]

b

 

[Raiden38]

Naruto wins low-mid diff

 

[MochOath]

Naruto wins low-mid diff

cuonted

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Voting Naruto

 

[Naito-desu]

Naruto FRA

 

[Therefir]

So what exactly are Naruto's wincons? Deku already defeated Birth of the Ten-Tails’ Jinchūriki Naruto, how would using a previous key make a difference?

@Kingofwolves999

 

[Kingofwolves999]

So what exactly are Naruto's wincons? Deku already defeated Birth of the Ten-Tails’ Jinchūriki Naruto, how would using a previous key make a difference?

@Kingofwolves999

Stat difference, Deku had a bigger AP gap before hand I believe.

Deku’s durability comes from him no-selling an attack from a >1.12 Petaton character, while Naruto’s Bijudama are 1.23 petatons. Nothing in Naruto’s arsenal is hurting Deku except fully charged Bijudama’s, which is not going to hit him since he’s way faster in every case. 100% speed is matching Shunshin at best, faster at worse, and Danger Sense nulls the advantage anyway since he can avoid it completely.

Deku is 4.5x faster than Naruto in just normal Full Cowl, and is way faster at 100%. How on earth is Naruto ever landing an attack on him, especially through Danger Sense and True Flight? Deku can just kick the air and leap kilometers away at any point in time, or just speed blitz at any moment.

Also, Naruto has his durability at baseline from downscaling from the Ten Tails. If Deku just keeps punching him with full power hits then he’s the only one making headway.

So this match really just comes down to stamina since Naruto can’t hurt Deku with basically anything, while Deku can’t hurt Naruto outside of Fa Jin super amped punches, but Naruto has absurd stamina + regen and isn’t just gonna not do anything since he can gather nature chakra too.

I guess if Deku manages to grab Naruto out of the Kurama body somehow with Blackwhip he can deal with him faster since it would be a one shot. Idk how else this goes. Deku can keep going for at least several weeks straight in these conditions though.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Stat difference, Deku had a bigger AP gap before hand I believe.

Deku’s durability comes from him no-selling an attack from a >1.12 Petaton character, while Naruto’s Bijudama are 1.23 petatons. Nothing in Naruto’s arsenal is hurting Deku except fully charged Bijudama’s, which is not going to hit him since he’s way faster in every case. 100% speed is matching Shunshin at best, faster at worse, and Danger Sense nulls the advantage anyway since he can avoid it completely.

Deku is 4.5x faster than Naruto in just normal Full Cowl, and is way faster at 100%. How on earth is Naruto ever landing an attack on him, especially through Danger Sense and True Flight? Deku can just kick the air and leap kilometers away at any point in time, or just speed blitz at any moment.

You’re overestimating Dekus danger senses here when nard also has his own in this key. Furthermore nard before even getting his danger sense can rival the sharingan. Just to put that into perspective, the sharingan in its first state (one tomoe) is able to dodge a rain of iron ball bearing and a danmaku of Kunai while countering “flawlessly” with later stages having straight up visuals precog. Again this is without any danger sensing and now he has that on-top of kurama danger sensing, so I find it hard to believe that Deku is gonna out predict.

That aside, Dekus danger sense works via sensing his opponents hostility and bloodlust both of which shinboi are able to suppress so Dekus danger sensing isn’t gonna help him here.

Also, Naruto has his durability at baseline from downscaling from the Ten Tails. If Deku just keeps punching him with full power hits then he’s the only one making headway.

So this match really just comes down to stamina since Naruto can’t hurt Deku with basically anything, while Deku can’t hurt Naruto outside of Fa Jin super amped punches, but Naruto has absurd stamina + regen and isn’t just gonna not do anything since he can gather nature chakra too.

Naruto has superior intelligence (Deku; Gifted & Nard; Genius), moreover nard has superior stealth mastery that would make it impossible for Deku to sense nard with that in mind nard can make clones that are in sage mode to use frog kumita which does internal durability negation. Using his stealth mastery, intelligence and sage mode prediction he can catch Deku off guard to kill him or bait him into a spot where nard has a charged TBB readied

I guess if Deku manages to grab Naruto out of the Kurama body somehow with Blackwhip he can deal with him faster since it would be a one shot. Idk how else this goes. Deku can keep going for at least several weeks straight in these conditions though.

Naruto can go on for a very long time since Kurama inside of him can keep generating and replenishing his chakra reserves through out the fight.

 

[Kaydee1648]

Also naruto range with a tailed beast bomb is 250km+
i’m not sure a combat speed advantage is saving deku here.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Also on the topic of speed, Deku's advantage isn't really all that advantageous.

Naruto's 0.14c comes from scaling to 6th gate Guy who's 5x faster than his base self. However the 5x multiplier comes from his FIRST gate. Even his 4th gate is a massive blitz amp over the 1st and so is the 5th (and presumably the 6th). Meaning Guy and therefore Naruto massively upscale above the 0.14c value.

Naruto's 1c is probably even crazier. The original value comes from Ay4 pretty much statue-ing MS Sasuke who has 1c reaction speed, and literally running a in a circle around him from the other side of a huge room.
Then Naruto completely blitzes Ay4's fastest punch at point blank range.
Then kcm2 Naruto is even faster than this AND has his own danger sense.

So Deku is really not going to have a fun time dealing with the speed gap

 

[Excellence616]

Nard fra

 

[Kingofwolves999]

You’re overestimating Dekus danger senses here when nard also has his own in this key. Furthermore nard before even getting his danger sense can rival the sharingan. Just to put that into perspective, the sharingan in its first state (one tomoe) is able to dodge a rain of iron ball bearing and a danmaku of Kunai while countering “flawlessly” with later stages having better straight up visuals precog. Again this is without any danger sensing and now he has that on-top of kurama danger sensing, so I find it hard to believe that Deku is gonna out predict.

That aside, Dekus danger sense works via sensing his opponents hostility and bloodlust both of which shinboi are able to suppress so Dekus danger sensing isn’t gonna help him here.

Naruto has superior intelligence (Deku; Gifted & Nard; Genius), moreover nard has superior stealth mastery that would make it impossible for Deku to sense nard with that in mind nard can make clones that are in sage mode to use frog kumita which does internal durability negation. Using his stealth mastery, intelligence and sage mode prediction he can catch Deku off guard to kill him or bait him into a spot where nard has a charged TBB readied

Naruto can go on for a very long time since Kurama inside of him can keep generating and replenishing his chakra reserves through out the fight.

Naruto would have to know that Deku does things via sensing hostility and bloodlust, which he doesn’t. I can’t recall a single time where Naruto has ever suppressed his hostility or desire to do harm against someone in order to specifically bypass an ability to sense that desire, so banking on him doing that when he doesn’t even know that’s how Deku operates doesn’t seem likely to me.

Yeah, and Deku can fight for a month straight. Neither of them have infinite energy though.

Also naruto range with a tailed beast bomb is 250km+
i’m not sure a combat speed advantage is saving deku here.

The exact diameter of his charged tailed beast bombs are lower than that since that was a combined effort with him and Gyuki. Also, Deku LITERALLY HAS A STATED FEAT where he can cross 200 KM IN AN INSTANT. This is literally the one instance where no, 250km is actually a worthless statistic that he can dodge. Did you even read his profile???

Also on the topic of speed, Deku's advantage isn't really all that advantageous.

Naruto's 0.14c comes from scaling to 6th gate Guy who's 5x faster than his base self. However the 5x multiplier comes from his FIRST gate. Even his 4th gate is a massive blitz amp over the 1st and so is the 5th (and presumably the 6th). Meaning Guy and therefore Naruto massively upscale above the 0.14c value.

Naruto's 1c is probably even crazier. The original value comes from Ay4 pretty much statue-ing MS Sasuke who has 1c reaction speed, and literally running a in a circle around him from the other side of a huge room.
Then Naruto completely blitzes Ay4's fastest punch at point blank range.
Then kcm2 Naruto is even faster than this AND has his own danger sense.

So Deku is really not going to have a fun time dealing with the speed gap

Can Naruto use Shunshin inside of the Kurama avatar to blitz people with the avatar itself? Because that’s the only way Shunshin speed is gonna matter. And regardless of the upscaling, you can’t just claim because 4th gate is way faster than 1st and so on, that Naruto can just completely ignore a 4.5x speed gap from the value on his page. Otherwise I would be claiming that the 1c value should be pointless since Deku can keep up with statue level blitzes in 100% which is >>his Rela+ value.

Also this is all ignoring that Deku can activate Gearshift which is a way better speed amp and has better showings. Ay can overwhelm Sasuke, Gearshift would make Deku be able to take Sasuke’s head off several times over before Sasuke could perceive what’s happening. As Deku did to someone that was at his own speed level, with two further blitzes + Fa Jin to stack with. The only reasons he wouldn’t use Gearshift is the 20 minute timer it puts on him, but unlike Shunshin, it’s a permanently active buff that would make Naruto, when not using Shunshin himself, basically immobile and completely incapable of doing anything.

Base Naruto << Base Deku << 100% Deku ≈ Shunshin Naruto < Gearshift

This is based purely off your own logic of speed upscaling btw since 100% Deku can travel instantly cross distances that takes Full Cowl several minutes. So the difference in speed is absurd between his Rela+ value and his 100% speed. So if Guy is massively faster in the 6th gate than his 14% value to the point a near 5x speed difference apparently doesn’t matter, then Deku’s own speed difference from Full Cowl to 100% should be astronomical as well when he’s several times faster than it by a single feat, let alone the fact that Prime AM tier characters literally blitz Rela+ characters.

Bakugo awakened and had completely untraceable movements to every Rela+ character, but still got his chest caved in the moment Shigaraki locked in on him, and that was while Shigaraki still had his finger growths which slow down his main body’s speed. So a nerfed Shigaraki who didn’t have his Quirks active and was slowed down by finger growths literally caught and killed Bakugo who can blitz Rela+ characters like Rewind AFO from kilometers away.

Rela+ < Rewind AFO <blitzed across Kilometers< Bakugo ≈ Nerfed Shigaraki << Actual Shigaraki = 100% Deku

Deku is literally blitzing Naruto’s base speed even with the best interpretation of this fight when he goes 100%. Only Shunshin is evening that out, and Gearshift is going to make Naruto a statue before he can even use it.

But yeah, main question: is Shunshin even usable while in Kurama Mode? Cause the only reason Naruto doesn’t get his head punched off instantly when the fight starts is cause Kurama mode durability. His actual body gets mangled by Deku. And even if Shunshin is usable, Naruto has no way of knowing to suppress his hostility vs Deku to do so, on top of the speed gap being so big that ONLY using Shunshin is how he can keep up, and that gets tossed the moment Deku puts the fight on a timer with Gearshift.

I also ask; what is preventing Deku from shooting Blackchain into the Kurama Avatar, piercing into it and pulling Naruto out while he’s completely statue-blitzing him in Gearshift? Naruto is ONLY capable of contending with Deku in Shunshin, which he has never used like a general speed amp buff and is instead for singular movements, so what is the answer when his base speed is getting horrendously blitzed four times over and he’s getting punched to destruction several times before he can even perceive what is happening by attacks that one shot him?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Telling me that Naruto with all of Guy’s upscaling can rival a 4.5x speed difference is already a stretch. But the sad fact is that just means he’s in the horrendous blitz category as literally every other person in Deku’s verse when he goes 100%, so even with the best possible interpretation of Naruto’s speed, he’s getting blitzed by Deku unless he is currently using Shunshin.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Naruto would have to know that Deku does things via sensing hostility and bloodlust, which he doesn’t.

He would figure it out the moment he tires to sneak attack Deku, like he did with Neji. The byakugan has 360 degrees field of view but has a blind spot at the back, Naruto didn’t know any of this and inferred this weakness through observations throughout his fight with neji. So he will do the same, not only that but nard also has this “danger sensing” like Deku.

Anyhow, nard has better predictions capabilities than Deku (out predicted three tomoe shringan and byakugan), has danger sense himself, a sixth sense that tells him about everything in his surroundings and kurama negative emotions sensing all stacked ontop of one another. I really don’t see how Deku is supposed to out predict nard when he doesn’t even come close to the complexity of analytical predictions nard has faced himself without any form of analytical predictions of his own let alone the ones he possess now.

Deku’s danger sense isn’t really anything special to even fodder Shinboi who posses the same ability passively

I can’t recall a single time where Naruto has ever suppressed his hostility or desire to do harm against someone in order to specifically bypass an ability to sense that desire, so banking on him doing that when he doesn’t even know that’s how Deku operates doesn’t seem likely to me.

Uhhh they do this all the time especially when trying to catch someone off guard or hiding. Like during the tenchi bridge fight with nard and orochimaru, nard hid his bloodlust and hostile intentions even though his eyes were red, Orochimaru knew where they were hiding because he could sense chakra and kabuto was oblivious to them even though he can sense chakra auras, bloodlust and hostile intentions passively like any other shinboi

 

[DavidTPPM]

Can Naruto use Shunshin inside of the Kurama avatar to blitz people with the avatar itself?

I mean theoretically why not? Honestly the kyubi avatar tends to be treated as equal to the susanoo which scales even above a chidori amp
(susanoo > chidori > users perception > shunshin)

Because that’s the only way Shunshin speed is gonna matter. And regardless of the upscaling, you can’t just claim because 4th gate is way faster than 1st and so on, that Naruto can just completely ignore a 4.5x speed gap from the value on his page.

Who's gonna stop me from doing so?

Otherwise I would be claiming that the 1c value should be pointless since Deku can keep up with statue level blitzes in 100% which is >>his Rela+ value.

I'd have to see the "statue level blitzes" but that still seems vastly inferior to Narutos shunshin.

Also this is all ignoring that Deku can activate Gearshift which is a way better speed amp and has better showings. Ay can overwhelm Sasuke, Gearshift would make Deku be able to take Sasuke’s head off several times over before Sasuke could perceive what’s happening.

Based on what exactly?

Base Naruto << Base Deku << 100% Deku ≈ Shunshin Naruto < Gearshift

None of what you described would even make 100% Deku on par with base Naruto if we're being real.

This is based purely off your own logic of speed upscaling btw since 100% Deku can travel instantly cross distances that takes Full Cowl several minutes.

Sooo yk that unless the distances in question are literally inter-planetary that'd make this an anti feat for FC Deku, not really a feat for 100% Deku right?

Alternatively this establishes a massive gap between travel and combat speed which is understandable but makes dodging wide range TBBs basically impossible as those would use Narutos combat speed meanwhile Deku would be restricted to his doodoo travel speed when dodging them.

Bakugo awakened and had completely untraceable movements to every Rela+ character, but still got his chest caved in the moment Shigaraki locked in on him, and that was while Shigaraki still had his finger growths which slow down his main body’s speed. So a nerfed Shigaraki who didn’t have his Quirks active and was slowed down by finger growths literally caught and killed Bakugo who can blitz Rela+ characters like Rewind AFO from kilometers away.

That's still unfathomably less impressive than Narutos shunshin and honestly barely even more impressive than Narutos base speed here.

That's 1 blitz over a 0.62c value and maybe like 2-3 vague amps.

Meanwhile Naruto has 2 amps over kcm1 shunshin which could run circles around someone who could run circles around 1c characters. Basically from what I'm reading here:

Kurama avatar Naruto > kcm2 Naruto > kcm1 Naruto >>> Ay4 fastest punch >~ Ay4 >>> MS Sasuke > 1c

And for Deku:
100% Deku = Shigaraki >~ "nerfed" Shigaraki ~ Bakugo >>> 0.62c

Not only is the chain much shorter and the starting value is almost 2x smaller. And to make matters worse Naruto has further sensory abilities to help him further as well as much more experience dealing with precog abilities 100x better than Dekus.

Naruto has no way of knowing to suppress his hostility vs Deku to do so, on top of the speed gap being so big that ONLY using Shunshin is how he can keep up, and that gets tossed the moment Deku puts the fight on a timer with Gearshift.

Hostility suppression is a standard shinobi strategy. Otherwise they'd be constantly alarming the opponent of their presence.

Naruto is ONLY capable of contending with Naruto in Shunshin,

Nah

which he has never used like a general speed amp buff and is instead for singular movements,

That isn't really accurate. Shunshin just doesn't have any real visual queues that'd tell us "look this guy is using it" so we only know for sure when it's used if the story specifically has a character note it.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Yeah, and Deku can fight for a month straight. Neither of them have infinite energy though.

Imma need a scan of that cuz that’s an extraordinary claim that he can fight nonstop for a month without food, water or basic necessities against someone relative and smarter than him

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Cause the only reason Naruto doesn’t get his head punched off instantly when the fight starts is cause Kurama mode durability. His actual body gets mangled by Deku.

What do you mean by "actual body"? Naruto's body without Kurama's Chakra or his body without the Kurama Avatar?

Because Naruto's body in Kurama Mode also scales to Baseline High 6-A not just the Kurama Avatar.

 

[Therefir]

Stomp, Deku is fighting a character who can blitz Speed of Light characters.

 

[Kaydee1648]

The exact diameter of his charged tailed beast bombs are lower than that since that was a combined effort with him and Gyuki. Also, Deku LITERALLY HAS A STATED FEAT where he can cross 200 KM IN AN INSTANT. This is literally the one instance where no, 250km is actually a worthless statistic that he can dodge. Did you even read his profile???

Nah, the full distance for his + Gyuki’s beast bomb is 500 km+. I just halved that distance because, well, he only contributed half the energy needed to do that. Realistically, he’d scale to more than that value.

Also, crossing 200km in an instant is vague as hell, It can range anywhere from 1-60 seconds based on who cares enough, and looking at the original statement doesn’t make a higher interpretation any better. It’s not a defeater on the premise that Deku will, without doubt, get obliterated by an explosion covering serveral hundreds of kilometers in yield. Even if we are charitable enough to assume a timeframe of a second, It’s still very much inferior to an explosion that can tag the likes of Pain up close, and travel at relative speeds to Itachi’s attack with the Susano’o.

My vote goes to Naruto if that wasn’t clear enough.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Stomp FRA
Gotta love Naruto matchups

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm voting Naruto but I'm not seeing a stomp. Narutos TBB isn't strong enough nor does it charge enough to outright stomp

 

[MochOath]

Voting Naruto

Naruto FRA

Nard fra

My vote goes to Naruto if that wasn’t clear enough.

I'm voting Naruto but I'm not seeing a stomp. Narutos TBB isn't strong enough nor does it charge enough to outright stomp

All counted


For what it's worth, I dont believe this match is a stomp.

If Deku's supporters want to concede that Naruto significantly outskills Deku, Naruto is 100% immune to being grabbed ever, and that Naruto's non-concrete upscaling allows him to more than cover a 4.5x speed gap without shunshin, im not going to fight them about it (although i personally disagree)

That's not even mentioning Deku upscaling from his 1.12 Petatons value while Naruto doesnt upscale from his 1.23 Petatons value, or that Naruto needs his TBBs to harm Deku at all.

No one even mentioned soul punch gg

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

For the record, Naruto can handle Danger Sense just fine since he fought Satori who has like the exact same kind of Danger Sense and was able to calm himself to bypass it while kicking the shit out of him.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

For the record, Naruto can handle Danger Sense just fine since he fought Satori who has like the exact same kind of Danger Sense and was able to calm himself to bypass it while kicking the shit out of him.

Is this even canon? Is from a film

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Is this even canon? Is from a film

I don't think its Canon but it is a thing Naruto did in a real fight in a real piece of Naruto media and that's a less experienced and skilled Naruto than the one Deku is fighting.

 

[Therefir]

Naruto still utterly blitzes Deku with Shunshin, which the profile itself states he uses very often in all kinds of situations. How would Deku even be able to grab him if that is supposed to be his main advantage?

@MochOath I'm sorry, but I don't think I can allow this to be added to profiles, as it's simply not a fair matchup in my eyes.

 

[MrTayman616]

Btw, why do we accept shunshin as an additional speed to their current feats when they're most likely already using it for their current feats as well? (It's just them concentrating chakra to their legs which it just appeared good at the beginning, when they didn't know much)

Or maybe i remember it wrong, sorry if that's the case :d

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Btw, why do we accept shunshin as an additional speed to their current feats when they're most likely already using it for their current feats as well? (It's just them concentrating chakra to their legs which it just appeared good at the beginning, when they didn't know much)

Or maybe i remember it wrong, sorry if that's the case :d

Shunshin let's you blitz relative Shinobi

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Btw, why do we accept shunshin as an additional speed to their current feats when they're most likely already using it for their current feats as well? (It's just them concentrating chakra to their legs which it just appeared good at the beginning, when they didn't know much)

Or maybe i remember it wrong, sorry if that's the case :d

Because its canonically not something anyone but Shisui spams during fights. They made a whole big deal out of it for him because it in combination with his specific Sharingan made him a nightmare to deal with.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Naruto still utterly blitzes Deku with Shunshin, which the profile itself states he uses very often in all kinds of situations. How would Deku even be able to grab him if that is supposed to be his main advantage?

@MochOath I'm sorry, but I don't think I can allow this to be added to profiles, as it's simply not a fair matchup in my eyes.

Most of Deku's wins are through blitzing other people through super in-character speed amps who still have win-cons. Why is this any different?

 

[MochOath]

Naruto still utterly blitzes Deku with Shunshin, which the profile itself states he uses very often in all kinds of situations. How would Deku even be able to grab him if that is supposed to be his main advantage?

@MochOath I'm sorry, but I don't think I can allow this to be added to profiles, as it's simply not a fair matchup in my eyes.

Naruto blitzes people who blitz others above 1c with Shunshin (not spammable), Deku blitzes people who blitz others above .62c with Fa Jin (not spammable). Both massively upscale from their values with a 1.6x difference in base values.

Neither Naruto nor Deku is spending most of the fight with Shunshin or Fa Jin active, as they are short burst techniques, not a speed-amping transformation like Gearshift or Overlay.

Without Shunshin or Fa Jin, Naruto upscales from .14c, and Deku upscales from .62c (with 100%). Both are significantly higher than their base values, with a 4.5x difference between those values.

There don't seem to be concrete rules on what counts as a blitz on this wiki, but it looks like Deku is significantly faster than Naruto throughout most of the fight, while Naruto is faster, but not overwhelmingly so, when using his Shunshin's short speed bursts.


What does Naruto even do with an alleged blitz while using Shunshin? Punch Deku with physicals 30x below Deku's value?
Even Naruto's TBBs scale to a value barely above an "extremely exhausted and injured" Deku "on the brink of death"


I'm not understanding why this match provides "little to no challenge or danger for the winning character." or why it doesn't leave "any room for debate".

 

[Nierre]

it's not a stomp

dekus quite literally won thanks to blitzing (among other things) in tons of other matches, this isn't any different

 

[Arkansalter2]

Deku supps ruling a stomp when deku doesn't win (he lost fair and square):

 

[Therefir]

dekus quite literally won thanks to blitzing (among other things) in tons of other matches, this isn't any different

That's just oversimplifying those matches, and none of them are currently on his profile anyway, but fine I won't keep pushing for a stomp.

 

[MochOath]

i wouldve given Deku some backup if i knew people wouldnt have any faith in him