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Jiren (Dragon Ball) vs Lightning (Final Fantasy XIII)
- Thread starter MoonChosen
- Start date
- Status
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You...do know Hit's time manipulation isn't that good, right? And neither is Goku's resistance?
Finally someone understands Hit times manip isn't even that good compared to lightning hell not even in general.
Finally someone understands Hit times manip isn't even that good compared to lightning hell not even in general.
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I personally haven't seen a reason to switch votes thus far, so grace sounds good
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Jiren is not going to resist lightnings time stop
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Jiren is not 4D, he is a three-dimensional person. And he is not immune to time stop.
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Thank you also lightning opens up with Time stop something much more Jiren have ever face before and can follow-up with debuff and kill with soul manip.
Also immortality type 8 Jiren is not keeping lightning down he can't kill her at all.
Slow/Slowga: A spell that deals light damage and afflicts a target with Slow, slowing down their movements. Haste/Hastega: A spell that bestows Haste upon a target, speeding up their movements.
Curse/Cursega: A spell that deals light damage and afflicts a target with Curse, making them easier to interrupt and knock around, and making it harder for them to do the same in return.
Stopga: Lightning stops time and cancels all actions taken by the opponent at the time of casting at the cost of doing the same for Lightning herself.
Disaster: A spell that deals moderate damage and afflicts a target with Curse, and also dramatically lowers all of their stats.
Teleport: Instantly teleports to a location.
Overclock: Dramatically slows time instantly, allowing her to act at far higher speeds for a short time.
Chronostasis: Stops time for up to 75 seconds, though she cannot interact directly with other beings in this time.
Arise: Automatically returns to life upon death.
And her time powers got even better since she became Etro knight and as shown in cutscenes she can interact with enemies in stop time and slow down time she can even stack them one after each other.
Lightning can take this because Jiren resist none of her Hax's AP is useless if you have no hax resistance or a way to take down an oppenent like lightning.
Also immortality type 8 Jiren is not keeping lightning down he can't kill her at all.
Slow/Slowga: A spell that deals light damage and afflicts a target with Slow, slowing down their movements. Haste/Hastega: A spell that bestows Haste upon a target, speeding up their movements.
Curse/Cursega: A spell that deals light damage and afflicts a target with Curse, making them easier to interrupt and knock around, and making it harder for them to do the same in return.
Stopga: Lightning stops time and cancels all actions taken by the opponent at the time of casting at the cost of doing the same for Lightning herself.
Code:
"If a monster starts an attack that can destroy you and make you game over, only draw back is it stops everything"Teleport: Instantly teleports to a location.
Overclock: Dramatically slows time instantly, allowing her to act at far higher speeds for a short time.
Chronostasis: Stops time for up to 75 seconds, though she cannot interact directly with other beings in this time.
Arise: Automatically returns to life upon death.
And her time powers got even better since she became Etro knight and as shown in cutscenes she can interact with enemies in stop time and slow down time she can even stack them one after each other.
Lightning can take this because Jiren resist none of her Hax's AP is useless if you have no hax resistance or a way to take down an oppenent like lightning.
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1. She doesn't have Type 8; she has Type 4AshenCrow777 said:
2. Half of her spells either won't help or negatively impact her as well
3. Jiren starts with Glare, Lightning starts with time hax. Jiren is downright stated to resist time hax, there's no denying that. So Jiren should 1 shot first
Although I will admit, Type 4 might be a problem. If she just comes back to life every time, how exactly will Jiren get past that?
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Thank you also lightning opens up with Time stop something much more Jiren have ever face before and can follow-up with debuff and kill with soul manip.
Hit was intending on freezing Jiren in a cage of time for over half an hour, and can at least Time Stop for several seconds (he spoke with someone who didn't display any feats of enhanced abilities or training in what he literally states is frozen time). I have also already provided reasoning for why Time Skip and Time Stop should be treated as universal rather than localised, considering external targets have referenced confusion and misunderstanding regarding what Hit has done.
Also immortality type 8 Jiren is not keeping lightning down he can't kill her at all.
He can just knock her out for an hour, can't he? I don't know why people assume characters have to kill. Jiren doesn't seem like he'd choose killing IC anyways, considering the Pride Troopers apprehend criminals. The only instance I can think of is Jiren attempting to blow up the stands, but he didn't show any surprise when Goku stopped it (to memory) and only did it out of extreme rage. In other words, Jiren will only go for the kill if he is extremely enraged.
Slow/Slowga: A spell that deals light damage and afflicts a target with Slow, slowing down their movements. Haste/Hastega: A spell that bestows Haste upon a target, speeding up their movements.
How much faster and slower? Jiren could fight Goku on-par, who was capable of fighting Dyspo who blitzed Hit and was said to become thousands of times faster via Light Bullet. We can argue for days how much faster Dyspo was, but if Lightning isn't too much faster than Jiren via Slow/Haste an argument can be made that Jiren can predict her movements and fight without issue (similarly to Goku predicting and countering Hit's Time Skip, Hit predicting Dyspo's Light Bullet, Frieza predicting Jimeze and Dyspo, etc).
Curse/Cursega: A spell that deals light damage and afflicts a target with Curse, making them easier to interrupt and knock around, and making it harder for them to do the same in return.
This sounds...a bit vague. So it makes the target...clumsy or? Honestly, Jiren could just Kiai or explode his Ki if he is struggling in a physical confrontation.
Stopga: Lightning stops time and cancels all actions taken by the opponent at the time of casting at the cost of doing the same for Lightning herself.
Again, Jiren resists Time Stop and is heavily implied to be immune to it (by Vados, who can likely rewind time). If Lightning uses Stopga, it sounds like she would just be giving Jiren an advantage.
Disaster: A spell that deals moderate damage and afflicts a target with Curse, and also dramatically lowers all of their stats.
This sounds like her best spell against Jiren, seeing as it can lower his statistical advantages, make him much slower and make him clumsier. Is there any feats/lore regarding how much it nerfs the target?
Teleport: Instantly teleports to a location.
Does it require any concentration? Can she use it while actively fighting? Regardless, Jiren, Goku and Frieza all have feats of dealing with teleportation or attacks that simulate teleportation by simply predicting where the opponent will go.
Overclock: Dramatically slows time instantly, allowing her to act at far higher speeds for a short time.
This gets into confusing territory. If Jiren can resist, and outright overpower, time skipping and time stopping, can he just ignore time slow effects? Is there a functional reason why he can't just overpower a Time Slow when he can already do so with Time Skip and Time Stop?
Chronostasis: Stops time for up to 75 seconds, though she cannot interact directly with other beings in this time.
Again, sounds like she is going to hurt herself if she uses this. Jiren overpowered Hit's Trump Card which was meant to freeze him in time for over 30 minutes and, as I already said multiple times, it appears Hit's time manipulation is universal. His Cage of Time having less 'power' over time due to being concentrated on a target wouldn't make much sense.
If Lightning casts Chronostasis, I'm forced to believe that Jiren will resist, almost certainly overpower, it and will end up getting a free attack on Lightning.
Arise: Automatically returns to life upon death.
Again, it's possible to win via non-lethal means and I don't think it's IC for Jiren to attempt killing on his first attempt.
Hit was intending on freezing Jiren in a cage of time for over half an hour, and can at least Time Stop for several seconds (he spoke with someone who didn't display any feats of enhanced abilities or training in what he literally states is frozen time). I have also already provided reasoning for why Time Skip and Time Stop should be treated as universal rather than localised, considering external targets have referenced confusion and misunderstanding regarding what Hit has done.
Also immortality type 8 Jiren is not keeping lightning down he can't kill her at all.
He can just knock her out for an hour, can't he? I don't know why people assume characters have to kill. Jiren doesn't seem like he'd choose killing IC anyways, considering the Pride Troopers apprehend criminals. The only instance I can think of is Jiren attempting to blow up the stands, but he didn't show any surprise when Goku stopped it (to memory) and only did it out of extreme rage. In other words, Jiren will only go for the kill if he is extremely enraged.
Slow/Slowga: A spell that deals light damage and afflicts a target with Slow, slowing down their movements. Haste/Hastega: A spell that bestows Haste upon a target, speeding up their movements.
How much faster and slower? Jiren could fight Goku on-par, who was capable of fighting Dyspo who blitzed Hit and was said to become thousands of times faster via Light Bullet. We can argue for days how much faster Dyspo was, but if Lightning isn't too much faster than Jiren via Slow/Haste an argument can be made that Jiren can predict her movements and fight without issue (similarly to Goku predicting and countering Hit's Time Skip, Hit predicting Dyspo's Light Bullet, Frieza predicting Jimeze and Dyspo, etc).
Curse/Cursega: A spell that deals light damage and afflicts a target with Curse, making them easier to interrupt and knock around, and making it harder for them to do the same in return.
This sounds...a bit vague. So it makes the target...clumsy or? Honestly, Jiren could just Kiai or explode his Ki if he is struggling in a physical confrontation.
Stopga: Lightning stops time and cancels all actions taken by the opponent at the time of casting at the cost of doing the same for Lightning herself.
Again, Jiren resists Time Stop and is heavily implied to be immune to it (by Vados, who can likely rewind time). If Lightning uses Stopga, it sounds like she would just be giving Jiren an advantage.
Disaster: A spell that deals moderate damage and afflicts a target with Curse, and also dramatically lowers all of their stats.
This sounds like her best spell against Jiren, seeing as it can lower his statistical advantages, make him much slower and make him clumsier. Is there any feats/lore regarding how much it nerfs the target?
Teleport: Instantly teleports to a location.
Does it require any concentration? Can she use it while actively fighting? Regardless, Jiren, Goku and Frieza all have feats of dealing with teleportation or attacks that simulate teleportation by simply predicting where the opponent will go.
Overclock: Dramatically slows time instantly, allowing her to act at far higher speeds for a short time.
This gets into confusing territory. If Jiren can resist, and outright overpower, time skipping and time stopping, can he just ignore time slow effects? Is there a functional reason why he can't just overpower a Time Slow when he can already do so with Time Skip and Time Stop?
Chronostasis: Stops time for up to 75 seconds, though she cannot interact directly with other beings in this time.
Again, sounds like she is going to hurt herself if she uses this. Jiren overpowered Hit's Trump Card which was meant to freeze him in time for over 30 minutes and, as I already said multiple times, it appears Hit's time manipulation is universal. His Cage of Time having less 'power' over time due to being concentrated on a target wouldn't make much sense.
If Lightning casts Chronostasis, I'm forced to believe that Jiren will resist, almost certainly overpower, it and will end up getting a free attack on Lightning.
Arise: Automatically returns to life upon death.
Again, it's possible to win via non-lethal means and I don't think it's IC for Jiren to attempt killing on his first attempt.
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Time stop > time slow and resistances to time stop still apply to time slowing abilities.
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Great, so he should resist, maybe be immune, to her Time Slow.
Her best spells from that post are the Curse-inducers, Haste-inducers, Slow-inducers and Teleport.
Curse-inducers may be troublesome but can be overcome via AoE attacks (such as Jiren exploding his aura).
Haste-inducers can be troublesome, but DB characters have displayed the ability to predict and counter opponent's that are far faster than they.
Slow-inducement might be an issue but I need to know how much slower Jiren would become and if it only effects his body or if his mind would also be slowed.
Teleport depends on how much concentration it requires, even then we have feats of characters predicting and dealing with teleportation (or, in effect, teleportation) by predicting their usage of it.
Stat nerfing is also bad for Jiren but I need to know how much it would nerf targets.
I'm not addressing Ashen's post, that he made after mine last night, due to it addressing absolutely nothing and actively contradicting the tiering system. Jiren is Low 2-C for scaling above Zamasu, who embodied an entire timeline. He is outright stated to be above Infinite Zamasu, even when he was extremely suppressed.
Jiren's AP and Range are both Low 2-C. His power scales above baseline 4-D by virtue of scaling above a 4-D existence (Infinite Zamasu).
And, I think people misunderstood what I was saying in the first place. I didn't mean Jiren is literally a 4-D existence. When I was referring to Jiren, I meant his power is beyond a 4-D existence (Infinite Zamasu). Jiren himself is a 3-D existence but his powers transcend the powers of a baseline 4-D existence.
Her best spells from that post are the Curse-inducers, Haste-inducers, Slow-inducers and Teleport.
Curse-inducers may be troublesome but can be overcome via AoE attacks (such as Jiren exploding his aura).
Haste-inducers can be troublesome, but DB characters have displayed the ability to predict and counter opponent's that are far faster than they.
Slow-inducement might be an issue but I need to know how much slower Jiren would become and if it only effects his body or if his mind would also be slowed.
Teleport depends on how much concentration it requires, even then we have feats of characters predicting and dealing with teleportation (or, in effect, teleportation) by predicting their usage of it.
Stat nerfing is also bad for Jiren but I need to know how much it would nerf targets.
I'm not addressing Ashen's post, that he made after mine last night, due to it addressing absolutely nothing and actively contradicting the tiering system. Jiren is Low 2-C for scaling above Zamasu, who embodied an entire timeline. He is outright stated to be above Infinite Zamasu, even when he was extremely suppressed.
Jiren's AP and Range are both Low 2-C. His power scales above baseline 4-D by virtue of scaling above a 4-D existence (Infinite Zamasu).
And, I think people misunderstood what I was saying in the first place. I didn't mean Jiren is literally a 4-D existence. When I was referring to Jiren, I meant his power is beyond a 4-D existence (Infinite Zamasu). Jiren himself is a 3-D existence but his powers transcend the powers of a baseline 4-D existence.
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He'd shrug off Lightning's time slow but he's not shrugging off her time stop. Hit's time stop isn't that good, only working for split seconds and getting overpowered before increasing it to still subpar levels. Time Prison in itself isn't even true time stop. It freezes time around Jiren, working more like really good TK than time stop. Even before Jiren could power up enough to force himself out he was still able to shake.
Also Hit literally says he can't hold it for the rest of the ToP, showing that even at the best it won't last 30 mins.
Actually, given what I said, does Jiren even resist time stop? I'll make a thread on it.
Also Hit literally says he can't hold it for the rest of the ToP, showing that even at the best it won't last 30 mins.
Actually, given what I said, does Jiren even resist time stop? I'll make a thread on it.
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Hit's time skip sucks. It can literally be overpowered by stronger opponents.
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No, it doesn't. In the manga maybe but that isn't the case in the anime. The closest to what you are claiming is Goku moving in Hit's Time Skip, and the consistency of that is questionable at best considering Hit adapted, improved his Time Skip and managed to use Time Skip on Goku almost immediately after that feat. And, as far as I can recall, he doesn't grow stronger by adapting. Only his technique and skill improves.ShadowWarrior1999 said:
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Your arguments on Jiren are base on only assumptions and Jiren resist absolutely nothing that Lightning throw at him at all he just can't and it's not even in is profile too.
Also there's nothing Vague about any of this. Lightning and Jiren speed are equalize the moment she she uses hast on herself and slowga on Jiren the gap will be dramatic.
And you keep reusing the same argument that was debunked several times by me, Cal, Matthew and several mod and staff says that Jiren is not Immune to time stop, so stop using that
And Hit's Time abilities are basically shit compared to lightning to even assume it comes even close to her is a massive jump in logic.
Also all of her status affects can stack up with one another as much times she wants the difference can go to an insane degree example lightning can make Jiren 100x slower and herself a 100x faster she can can stack time so many times it would be ridiculous.
Unless users are shown or stated to have limits in terms of range, or that their ranges extend to areas beyond the universe, then they are assumed to be universal or higher by the virtue of affecting the very flow of time itself, thus all of time in the universe.
Lightning can effect time to a universal degree something hit never shown to be able to and Jiren has nothing had to deal with it plus again she can freaking stack it.
LIKE Cal said time prison freeze time around Jiren not Jiren himself and his ability is weak at that.
You have posted no proof that Jiren could resist all the things Light can do and all the things you said are basically the same but worded differently all of your arguments are based on pure assumptions that Jiren might resist what Light throws at him.
And again Jiren is not immune to time (because if he did he would 4-D) and he can not resist status effects at all he never shown the ability to do so.
Also there's nothing Vague about any of this. Lightning and Jiren speed are equalize the moment she she uses hast on herself and slowga on Jiren the gap will be dramatic.
And you keep reusing the same argument that was debunked several times by me, Cal, Matthew and several mod and staff says that Jiren is not Immune to time stop, so stop using that
And Hit's Time abilities are basically shit compared to lightning to even assume it comes even close to her is a massive jump in logic.
Also all of her status affects can stack up with one another as much times she wants the difference can go to an insane degree example lightning can make Jiren 100x slower and herself a 100x faster she can can stack time so many times it would be ridiculous.
Unless users are shown or stated to have limits in terms of range, or that their ranges extend to areas beyond the universe, then they are assumed to be universal or higher by the virtue of affecting the very flow of time itself, thus all of time in the universe.
Lightning can effect time to a universal degree something hit never shown to be able to and Jiren has nothing had to deal with it plus again she can freaking stack it.
LIKE Cal said time prison freeze time around Jiren not Jiren himself and his ability is weak at that.
You have posted no proof that Jiren could resist all the things Light can do and all the things you said are basically the same but worded differently all of your arguments are based on pure assumptions that Jiren might resist what Light throws at him.
And again Jiren is not immune to time (because if he did he would 4-D) and he can not resist status effects at all he never shown the ability to do so.
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^
Yes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7Qy_jTK74M
Walks into a party and starts soul ripping anything that moves.
Yes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7Qy_jTK74M
Walks into a party and starts soul ripping anything that moves.
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I'm not sure where you are getting this from. Hit's Time Skip isn't a Time Stop and, when last quantified, was stated to skip forward in time by 0.5 seconds which was then improved further and has likely improved since.
Hit has displayed the power to stop time for at least several seconds (as he spoke with a character who seems to not have any training or notable power) and here we have Hit state that he 'can't keep him frozen until the end' and that 'he has to put all of his chips on the table'. Champa tells Hit to keep Jiren frozen until the end and Vados claims that the technique was designed with teamwork in mind, Hit relying on his team to handle things while he is freezing his target.
It's clear that Hit was planning to keep Jiren in a cage of time until the end of the tournament, which would be about half an hour at this point in the tournament. Yet Jiren not only resisted the time hax while heavily suppressed but also destroyed all of the 'time energy' that Hit accumulated in this hand.
Overall, Hit's Time Skip can instantly skip time forward by more than half a second (and has adapted since that statement to make it better), can Time Stop for several seconds and had planned to keep Jiren trapped in time for half an hour.
Hit has displayed the power to stop time for at least several seconds (as he spoke with a character who seems to not have any training or notable power) and here we have Hit state that he 'can't keep him frozen until the end' and that 'he has to put all of his chips on the table'. Champa tells Hit to keep Jiren frozen until the end and Vados claims that the technique was designed with teamwork in mind, Hit relying on his team to handle things while he is freezing his target.
It's clear that Hit was planning to keep Jiren in a cage of time until the end of the tournament, which would be about half an hour at this point in the tournament. Yet Jiren not only resisted the time hax while heavily suppressed but also destroyed all of the 'time energy' that Hit accumulated in this hand.
Overall, Hit's Time Skip can instantly skip time forward by more than half a second (and has adapted since that statement to make it better), can Time Stop for several seconds and had planned to keep Jiren trapped in time for half an hour.
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No, no, and no.
Firstly, Hit's convo in stopped time. Talking is a free action. See five minutes Frieza and every time DIO stops time.
No, what's clear is that he was planning to keep Hit "time stopped" (quotation marks because I'm not even sure if Time Prison is traditional time stop and not closer to telekinesis using time as a bind) long enough for his U6 Saiyans to take him out.
Finally, improved since doesn't matter. According to the DB Wiki, his best upgrade was to .5 seconds which is abysmal for time stop. Whether he improved or not we can't assume how much.
Firstly, Hit's convo in stopped time. Talking is a free action. See five minutes Frieza and every time DIO stops time.
No, what's clear is that he was planning to keep Hit "time stopped" (quotation marks because I'm not even sure if Time Prison is traditional time stop and not closer to telekinesis using time as a bind) long enough for his U6 Saiyans to take him out.
Finally, improved since doesn't matter. According to the DB Wiki, his best upgrade was to .5 seconds which is abysmal for time stop. Whether he improved or not we can't assume how much.
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'''Boom debunked'''
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OP seems like they're trying to BS their way into a Jiren win via "lol time hax resistance". If Matt and I agree on something being BS you damn well know it's BS
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That basically make all of Jiren votes invalid they all said Jiren wins this because "lol time hax resistance" and people just kept FRA for no reason despite being proven wrong lol one of you also attacked the wiki system because it did not fit with your reality of "4-D Jiren"
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Ok, remind me, if Jiren can't permanently put Lightning down, how he is supposed win?
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He dosent I mean he could try to knock her out but Jiren is the type of person to go straight for the kill plus Lightning's status ability can wake her out of a K.O this fight goes mostly to Lightning since the very beginning all Jiren had was Superior AP and that's it.C2 of Omegon said:
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So, he can't kill, he can't incapcitate, has no reliable BFR and her first move is to rip out his soul...what I'm really asking here, how is that not a stomp?
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This basically goes one of two ways: Jiren's time manipulation resistance (there isn't a currently agreed upon affect of said manipulation in this thread) is good enough and he continues to Glare Lightning to death or incap, with the off chance of her debuffing him or buffing herself enough to the point where she wins, or Jiren is completely powerless to all of her hax... A.K.A. a stomp
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Also just wanted to drop that Jiren's page 100% says he's resistant to Time Stop.
Resistance to Extreme Cold, Cosmic Radiations, Time Stop (Broke through Hit's Time-Leap), and Empathic Manipulation
Resistance to Extreme Cold, Cosmic Radiations, Time Stop (Broke through Hit's Time-Leap), and Empathic Manipulation
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The reason why Lightning vs goku was fair is because at least goku was much more versatile than Jiren ever since this thread started iv tried to make you all realize Jiren isn't that much of threat to Lightning with how incredibly versatile and Haxy she is but you were all adamant with the Jiren FRA above.
And no this is not a stomp I better not see people coming in crying it's a stomp after waking Jiren to high heaven with that immunity 4-D bs.
Lightning wins this 9/10 I change my inconclusive and vote for Light.
And no this is not a stomp I better not see people coming in crying it's a stomp after waking Jiren to high heaven with that immunity 4-D bs.
Lightning wins this 9/10 I change my inconclusive and vote for Light.
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Resistant does not mean immune he can still be affected by it and is resistance comes from Hit's extremely weak time stop he will not be able to survive Lightning's incredible time stop abilities "Resistance is the ability to lessen the effectiveness of certain techniques and abilities through whatever means, such as greatly decreasing the potency of Mind Manipulation or nullifying it altogether."BakiHanma18 said:
"For any ability, resistance to that ability can be demonstrated, to varying degrees of effectiveness, ranging from slight and mostly inconsequential to extremely high, potentially completely nullifying those abilities. However, like everything else, resistance has to be judged based on feats."
Hit time manip is a 100x weaker than lightning so Jiren resisting Hits time stop is not that impressive for someone like Lightning.
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Yeah, I'm calling it in to question if it's a stomp. I did that months ago! I literally said that it wasn't a good matchup to begin with, the only difference was that I was saying it was a stomp for Jiren based on my limited knowledge of FFXIII.
If you tell me that Lightning basically counters everything Jiren can reasonably do and nothing he does really affects the outcome of this, then, from my prospective, this is a stomp. That's not crying, that's me trying actually to be objective about this.
If you tell me that Lightning basically counters everything Jiren can reasonably do and nothing he does really affects the outcome of this, then, from my prospective, this is a stomp. That's not crying, that's me trying actually to be objective about this.
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I see sorry for doubting you but like I said since this thread started I've tried to say its inconclusive or an outright stomp in favor of Lightning but people kept ignoring me and just did FRA no matter how hard I tried to make people realize what was going on I was being drowned out by some people waking Jiren if it wasn't for Cal, Matthew and ZephyrosOmega Jiren would have had a victory he doesn't even deserve.
So again I apologize it's just now people are finally realizing what's going and they decided to back pedal feels dishonest especially the fact that some are trying to remove Lightning's victory over Goku with not actual arguments at all and are mindlessly agreeing to it like sheep's without doing any research.
She won that fight fair and square.
So yeah sorry.
So again I apologize it's just now people are finally realizing what's going and they decided to back pedal feels dishonest especially the fact that some are trying to remove Lightning's victory over Goku with not actual arguments at all and are mindlessly agreeing to it like sheep's without doing any research.
She won that fight fair and square.
So yeah sorry.
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Cal, what are you even talking about? The U6 Saiyans went around fighting other people when Hit told them to keep fighting. The plan was NEVER for the Saiyans to knock Jiren off, it was for him to time Jiren out. You are contradicting the writers of the show right now.
Secondly, what do you even mean by 'talking is a free action'? All I get from that is that you imply there was time dilation when Hit was speaking with a powerless alien, of which there is no evidence. You are forcing the headcanon that no time passes when characters talk even when said characters lack enhanced speed. In other words, this isn't even an argument, lacks any evidence and directly contradicts what is actually happening in the scene itself.
And yes, improved 'does matter' because he isn't even USING Time Stop. That's Time SKIP. His Time Stop is a completely separate technique (as indicated by the Time Stop effect being completely different to his Time Skip effect and Hit outright stating it is a Time Stop) that casually lasts for several seconds.
Secondly, what do you even mean by 'talking is a free action'? All I get from that is that you imply there was time dilation when Hit was speaking with a powerless alien, of which there is no evidence. You are forcing the headcanon that no time passes when characters talk even when said characters lack enhanced speed. In other words, this isn't even an argument, lacks any evidence and directly contradicts what is actually happening in the scene itself.
And yes, improved 'does matter' because he isn't even USING Time Stop. That's Time SKIP. His Time Stop is a completely separate technique (as indicated by the Time Stop effect being completely different to his Time Skip effect and Hit outright stating it is a Time Stop) that casually lasts for several seconds.
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https://youtu.be/BVNOzlag69o
Dude, are you kidding me? It says it right here. They have a whole teamwork talk. I'm not contradicting anything. The only person who says anything about Hit keeping Jiren throughout the entire match is Champa, which Hit himself says otherwise. You're the one contradicting.
This is "Talking is a free action". It's abused to hell and back in DB. Frieza's five minutes for example. Or the entirety of the ToP saga. Lesr you think this scene is 10 seconds long.
Sweet. It's something he only used on...Goku was it? Who it worked on. Not Jiren. Which renders this entire conversation moot and removes resistance to time manipulation from everyone, and if time stop and the rest of Hit's time abilities are different then Time Prison needs to prove to be time stop instead of something else.
Dude, are you kidding me? It says it right here. They have a whole teamwork talk. I'm not contradicting anything. The only person who says anything about Hit keeping Jiren throughout the entire match is Champa, which Hit himself says otherwise. You're the one contradicting.
This is "Talking is a free action". It's abused to hell and back in DB. Frieza's five minutes for example. Or the entirety of the ToP saga. Lesr you think this scene is 10 seconds long.
Sweet. It's something he only used on...Goku was it? Who it worked on. Not Jiren. Which renders this entire conversation moot and removes resistance to time manipulation from everyone, and if time stop and the rest of Hit's time abilities are different then Time Prison needs to prove to be time stop instead of something else.
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First, don't link the dub. This is Hit telling them to 'go', Vados explaining that Hit considered they all have their roles and both Hit and Champa acknowledging that Hit is trying to freeze Jiren until the end of the tournament. It also shows Caulifa, Cabba and Kale going off to fight the other participants instead of knocking Jiren off (which Hit displays no reaction to, showing he intended on them doing so).
NOTHING indicates Hit wanted them to knock Jiren off. It's made evident that Hit intended on freezing Jiren to the end of the tournament. So, no. I am not contradicting anything. You are the one contradicting the very actions and statements of the characters within the canonical series.
Secondly, are you seriously comparing Massively FTL+ beings to a random, physically unfit, mob boss that uses a laser ring to kill people? What feats does this alien have to indicate he is ANYWHERE near Frieza, let alone any of the ToP participants? That Time Stop feat lasted for nearly 70 seconds in the show, I already nerfed it down to 7 seconds in my claims to account for any possible time dilation.
Unless you can show that this Mob boss is like supersonic speeds, there is absolutely zero reason to even begin to believe that he is talking at a super fast speed.
Thirdly, Hit explicitly states that his Time Stop has froze time for everyone but he and his target. Considering nothing contradicts this claim, the feat should be treated as freezing the entire timeline.
Thirdly, you are now claiming that the characters suddenly lack Time Resistance even though Goku and Jiren have both actively resisted Time Skip and Time Cage, Time Cage being a technique that is meant to lock an opponent in time for 30 minutes. If you had watched the links I provided, you would see that Jiren was frozealong with the arena (as shown by debris being frozen in place). We even see Jiren is locked within a purple variant of the Time Skip effect and that the terrain around him is also completely frozen.
As I have stated time and again, this is a localised Time Manipulation that only works on Jiren. It's like creating a pocket of space-time that is completely stopped on a specific target, rather than the entire timeline. I have shown that Hit can freeze the entire timeline and I have shown that his trump card, the Cage of Time, was designed specifically to timeout an opponent in the tournament itself.
We don't actually know if Hit's Time Cage is a form of Time Skip, Time Stop or something different. All that is ever explained is that Hit is suspending Jiren in time and intends to do so until the end of the tournament, to my memory anyways.
Time Skip = Skip forward in time by 0.5 seconds (has grown much stronger to an unknown degree after this level)
Time Stop = Freeze the timeline for multiple seconds (about 70 seconds in 'real' time, time dilation is unknown due to the target having zero feats but seems to be heavily unfit and reliant on guards)
Time Cage = Suspending the target in time for upwards to 30 minutes
These are the three variants of Hit's time manipulation and are indicated by Blue, White and Purple ice effects respectively.
NOTHING indicates Hit wanted them to knock Jiren off. It's made evident that Hit intended on freezing Jiren to the end of the tournament. So, no. I am not contradicting anything. You are the one contradicting the very actions and statements of the characters within the canonical series.
Secondly, are you seriously comparing Massively FTL+ beings to a random, physically unfit, mob boss that uses a laser ring to kill people? What feats does this alien have to indicate he is ANYWHERE near Frieza, let alone any of the ToP participants? That Time Stop feat lasted for nearly 70 seconds in the show, I already nerfed it down to 7 seconds in my claims to account for any possible time dilation.
Unless you can show that this Mob boss is like supersonic speeds, there is absolutely zero reason to even begin to believe that he is talking at a super fast speed.
Thirdly, Hit explicitly states that his Time Stop has froze time for everyone but he and his target. Considering nothing contradicts this claim, the feat should be treated as freezing the entire timeline.
Thirdly, you are now claiming that the characters suddenly lack Time Resistance even though Goku and Jiren have both actively resisted Time Skip and Time Cage, Time Cage being a technique that is meant to lock an opponent in time for 30 minutes. If you had watched the links I provided, you would see that Jiren was frozealong with the arena (as shown by debris being frozen in place). We even see Jiren is locked within a purple variant of the Time Skip effect and that the terrain around him is also completely frozen.
As I have stated time and again, this is a localised Time Manipulation that only works on Jiren. It's like creating a pocket of space-time that is completely stopped on a specific target, rather than the entire timeline. I have shown that Hit can freeze the entire timeline and I have shown that his trump card, the Cage of Time, was designed specifically to timeout an opponent in the tournament itself.
We don't actually know if Hit's Time Cage is a form of Time Skip, Time Stop or something different. All that is ever explained is that Hit is suspending Jiren in time and intends to do so until the end of the tournament, to my memory anyways.
Time Skip = Skip forward in time by 0.5 seconds (has grown much stronger to an unknown degree after this level)
Time Stop = Freeze the timeline for multiple seconds (about 70 seconds in 'real' time, time dilation is unknown due to the target having zero feats but seems to be heavily unfit and reliant on guards)
Time Cage = Suspending the target in time for upwards to 30 minutes
These are the three variants of Hit's time manipulation and are indicated by Blue, White and Purple ice effects respectively.
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I have looked it up (due to no clips on YouTube featuring the explanation) on CrunchyRoll and Vados DOES explain that Hit's Cage of Time is spamming Time Skip on Jiren. So it would, in-fact, be a variant of Time skipping. How powerful the time skip is would be unknown, considering the last instance of Time Skip was 0.5 seconds per use and that Hit has adapted it to be more potent over time.
I don't know how long the Time Skip would be now, or what the effect of spamming Time Skip on a target even would be. The terrain is shown to visibly freeze around Jiren and the visual effect is different to his Time Skip or Time Stop, meaning it may be an evolution of the Time Skip technique.
Functionally speaking, it functions as a Time Suspension but it was created by using Time Skip on a specific target to constantly keep them locked in time. The logic and mechanics behind how this works is unknown, and difficult to claim without pure headcanon.
You can either claim that Hit was spamming greater than 0.5 second Time Skips (and Jiren overpowered it while heavily suppressed) or that Hit created a Time Suspension technique by using Time Skip repeatedly to lock Jiren in time.
I don't know how long the Time Skip would be now, or what the effect of spamming Time Skip on a target even would be. The terrain is shown to visibly freeze around Jiren and the visual effect is different to his Time Skip or Time Stop, meaning it may be an evolution of the Time Skip technique.
Functionally speaking, it functions as a Time Suspension but it was created by using Time Skip on a specific target to constantly keep them locked in time. The logic and mechanics behind how this works is unknown, and difficult to claim without pure headcanon.
You can either claim that Hit was spamming greater than 0.5 second Time Skips (and Jiren overpowered it while heavily suppressed) or that Hit created a Time Suspension technique by using Time Skip repeatedly to lock Jiren in time.
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Your argument does not make any sense at all hell you don't even know how Hit's time manip even work plus you are trying to downplay Bhunivelze please down play harder and No '''HIT DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO FREEZ AN ENTIRE TIMELINE WHAT KIND OF WANK IS THIS???'''
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He dosent I mean he could try to knock her out but Jiren is the type of person to go straight for the kill plus Lightning's status ability can wake her out of a K.O this fight goes mostly to Lightning since the very beginning all Jiren had was Superior AP and that's it.
What? Where did you get this from? Jiren's basically a power ranger, he's not a murderer.
What? Where did you get this from? Jiren's basically a power ranger, he's not a murderer.
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https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/HitShadowWarrior1999 said:
"Weaknesses: Hit's movements during his Time-Skip can be predicted, and his attacks thus blocked or dodged, though this is difficult. His Cage of Time requires quite a lot of energy and focus to keep an enemy trapped."
No, it can't.
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Okay first, even if it's resistance as opposed to immunity, he's literall just looking in her direction. Not exactly a move he's gotta charge up... or really do anything for that matter.
Second, the potency of Hit's TS is still in question, and I'd like a definitive answer to said question before I go and change my vote.
Third, that was a suppressed Jiren to begin with. Even if the gap between Hit and Lightning's TS is 100x, Jiren can get quite a bit stronger (I saw somewhere it's around 40x stronger at either Full Power or in Limit Breaker, but until I find that source, it's just an unsubstantiated claim), and again, it's just a look.
Your arguments have been very compelling, but there are some things I'd like you to flesh out more, like the degree to which the debuffs affect Jiren (with Slowga, how much slower?) and the whole Hit thing...
Second, the potency of Hit's TS is still in question, and I'd like a definitive answer to said question before I go and change my vote.
Third, that was a suppressed Jiren to begin with. Even if the gap between Hit and Lightning's TS is 100x, Jiren can get quite a bit stronger (I saw somewhere it's around 40x stronger at either Full Power or in Limit Breaker, but until I find that source, it's just an unsubstantiated claim), and again, it's just a look.
Your arguments have been very compelling, but there are some things I'd like you to flesh out more, like the degree to which the debuffs affect Jiren (with Slowga, how much slower?) and the whole Hit thing...
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Question.
Can Jiren actually KO Lightning? I think he might be too strong for it.
Can Jiren actually KO Lightning? I think he might be too strong for it.
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I don't think you can be too strong to knock someone out without killing them. Otherwise that means he would have killed everyone that he fought that was weaker than SSJ Berserk Kale (first person that came to my mind that he knocked out).
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